Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 47
  1. #1
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Unlike some of the manufactures scandals that have been preoccupying certain quarters of our political world, this one has real world on going effects. The VA scandal that began a year or two ago had been ignored by everyone both left and right and it has reached a tipping point where people may be beginning to properly react to it.

    Firstly, it was the disgraceful warehouse of claims waiting to be processed and now it is discovered that the waiting list for treatment has also been manipulated to hide the actual number of people. This is a disgrace of the highest order and breaks a covenant between those that have risked their lives for their country. I wish the outrage from the fake scandals could fuel fixing this one so hopefully something will begin to move.


    What's interesting about this scandal is that are multi fold:

    - there is indisputable proof that there is a huge problem.
    - it is entirely fixable with more resources
    - the latest doctoring of numbers is a clear attempt to hide the problem for no discernible reason

    What's even more interesting is the lack of noise from those that tend to seize on attacks on the Administration. This is one clear one that is only beginning to hit drudge. Why is that? Why the contrived outrage over emails when there could be real outrage to be had over this?

  2. #2
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Can you support that there has been a "lack of noise" in conservative circles? Drudge has been reporting on this subject for two weeks, for example.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  3. #3
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Can you support that there has been a "lack of noise" in conservative circles? Drudge has been reporting on this subject for two weeks, for example.
    I know about Drudge, it's what prompted this post. Even there I don't think Drudge reports so much as highlight articles people should be reading. He's certainly not written anything about this AFAIK.

    What I mean about lack of interest is really political interest - the shrill squeal of injustice being done, hearings, committees, bizarro links to some conspiracy the Administration is responsible for. You know how it works. The Full Works.

    Instead political energy is spent on someone possibly lying about an email!

  4. #4
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Again, please support this assertion, there was a hearing mid-last week on just this subject, and numerous statements by public officials.

    If you are going to maintain that the reaction to this is somehow different than the IRS or Benghazi scandals then you need to offer some kind of support as to that being the case.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  5. #5
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Again, please support this assertion, there was a hearing mid-last week on just this subject, and numerous statements by public officials.
    Well, I can't support something didn't take place but the problems with VA has been quite long running and there may well have been some odd statements here and there but not to the general level of Benghazi.

    If you are going to maintain that the reaction to this is somehow different than the IRS or Benghazi scandals then you need to offer some kind of support as to that being the case.
    I already did - there's (currently) no weird link to the Obama administration having colluded with them to cause this scandal.

    There's no conspiracy theory or political gamesmanship over trivial points. Are you claiming that it's the same?

  6. #6
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I already did - there's (currently) no weird link to the Obama administration having colluded with them to cause this scandal.

    There's no conspiracy theory or political gamesmanship over trivial points. Are you claiming that it's the same?
    JJ, your OP states:

    What's even more interesting is the lack of noise from those that tend to seize on attacks on the Administration.

    You are making a positive claim that requires support. Please offer support or retract this angle of your OP.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #7
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    JJ, your OP states:
    What's even more interesting is the lack of noise from those that tend to seize on attacks on the Administration.

    You are making a positive claim that requires support. Please offer support or retract this angle of your OP.
    There has indeed been the lack of noise:

    1. No conspiracies linking the Administration's direct hand.
    2. No wall to wall coverage of this new scandal. Certainly not as much as there has been on Benghazi or the IRS or Birtherism and other right-wing conspiracies.
    3. No committees investigating this has been announced even thought the department has been in trouble for at least a year.
    4. Issa, paranoid investigator in chief, has yet to scream about it.
    5. No foxnews.com front-page coverage (there's the usual hysteria around ObamaCare, which I forgot to mention earlier).

    What there is are a few muted moans and complaints, there's a couple of toe dips I've picked up, but certainly not the wall-to-wall coverage nor the ramp-up that Birtherism saw by this time.

  8. #8
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    1. No conspiracies linking the Administration's direct hand.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    2. No wall to wall coverage of this new scandal. Certainly not as much as there has been on Benghazi or the IRS or Birtherism and other right-wing conspiracies.

    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    3. No committees investigating this has been announced even thought the department has been in trouble for at least a year.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    4. Issa, paranoid investigator in chief, has yet to scream about it.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    5. No foxnews.com front-page coverage (there's the usual hysteria around ObamaCare, which I forgot to mention earlier).
    Challenge to support a claim.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #9
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Challenge to support a claim.




    Challenge to support a claim.



    Challenge to support a claim.



    Challenge to support a claim.



    Challenge to support a claim.
    Not clear what support you're looking for here. All those are a cursory glance at the right-wing conspira-sphere around this and comparing it to the other 'scandals'. What's of interest is why there is this lack of noise when there is something actual and substantive vs the others that are manufactured scandals.

  10. #10
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Not clear what support you're looking for here. All those are a cursory glance at the right-wing conspira-sphere around this and comparing it to the other 'scandals'. What's of interest is why there is this lack of noise when there is something actual and substantive vs the others that are manufactured scandals.
    I've challenged you to support the statements you made both in your OP and in post 8. They are your statements, so I'm not sure why you would find them unclear.

    You'll need to support those statements before making any further statements comparing this scandal to other scandals.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I've challenged you to support the statements you made both in your OP and in post 8. I'm not sure what about your own statement you find unclear so as to prevent you from supporting your own claims.

    You'll need to support those statements before making any further statements comparing this scandal to other scandals.
    Let's just take one of them, the foxnews.com doesn't have major coverage of it but it does for the others (e.g. ObamaCare). Why is that insufficient support?

  12. #12
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Let's just take one of them, the foxnews.com doesn't have major coverage of it but it does for the others (e.g. ObamaCare). Why is that insufficient support?
    Because there is no support offered. Look at the text of post 11. Where is there any support at all?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  13. #13
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Because there is no support offered. Look at the text of post 11. Where is there any support at all?
    I see what you're saying. I thought that pointing out that there is an ObamaCare section but zero on the VA was sufficient. If it's insufficient, why is it? If I quoted the page, would that be sufficient?

  14. #14
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I see what you're saying. I thought that pointing out that there is an ObamaCare section but zero on the VA was sufficient. If it's insufficient, why is it? If I quoted the page, would that be sufficient?
    Lets take your statement. You said that Fox has had much less coverage of this scandal than of other scandals. You would need to show that their coverage over a period of time is different than a similar period of time for the other scandals. (Given that there are two articles on the front page and a simple search of FoxNews.com shows 9 articles in 48 hours on this subject: http://www.foxnews.com/search-result...=fn&sort=news3, that is going to be a tough argument).

    But let me ask you a more fundamental question JJ. Do you recognize that you simply making a statement about Fox News does not constitute support? IE for you to say: "Let's just take one of them, the foxnews.com doesn't have major coverage of it but it does for the others (e.g. ObamaCare). Why is that insufficient support?" doesn't meet the bare minimum requirement for argument support?




    And will you be supporting the rest of what you defined as the supporting reasons for your OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    1. No conspiracies linking the Administration's direct hand.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    2. No wall to wall coverage of this new scandal. Certainly not as much as there has been on Benghazi or the IRS or Birtherism and other right-wing conspiracies.

    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    3. No committees investigating this has been announced even thought the department has been in trouble for at least a year.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    4. Issa, paranoid investigator in chief, has yet to scream about it.
    Challenge to support a claim.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #15
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Lets take your statement. You said that Fox has had much less coverage of this scandal than of other scandals. You would need to show that their coverage over a period of time is different than a similar period of time for the other scandals. (Given that there are two articles on the front page and a simple search of FoxNews.com shows 9 articles in 48 hours on this subject: http://www.foxnews.com/search-result...=fn&sort=news3, that is going to be a tough argument).
    Hmm but that's only on the recent events so you'd expect there to be some coverage; that Drudge mentioned it at all was what prompted the question. What I'm talking about is that the VA has been in trouble for at least a year with the other scandal of the millions of boxes of unprocessed applications. My point being that it is not news that there are some problems at the VA and the doctoring of lists is just another episode in a department that should actually be receiving much more scrutiny than the IRS or the State Department (though let's be honest, Clinton) or the Birther conspiracies. Certainly within a year, you'd expect there to be much more right-wing noise about it. If they cared to, that is. The discussion is about why?

    But let me ask you a more fundamental question JJ. Do you recognize that you simply making a statement about Fox News does not constitute support? IE for you to say: "Let's just take one of them, the foxnews.com doesn't have major coverage of it but it does for the others (e.g. ObamaCare). Why is that insufficient support?" doesn't meet the bare minimum requirement for argument support?
    One year after Benghazi vs one year after the original VA scandal? I don't have the numbers but I certainly expect a well informed person to know this is true.

  16. #16
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Hmm but that's only on the recent events so you'd expect there to be some coverage
    Lots of unsupported statements here, none of this is support or evidence however. Can you offer actual support for anything you've said in this thread?

    Unless you can, that entire section of your OP and everything in post 8 is an unsupported claim, and cannot be maintained without evidence in this thread.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #17
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Lots of unsupported statements here, none of this is support or evidence however. Can you offer actual support for anything you've said in this thread?

    Unless you can, that entire section of your OP and everything in post 8 is an unsupported claim, and cannot be maintained without evidence in this thread.
    Meh, kill the thread if you wish. Seems pretty obvious comparing the level of rhetoric between the different cases. Would google search numbers count as support to move this forward?

  18. #18
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Meh, kill the thread if you wish. Seems pretty obvious comparing the level of rhetoric between the different cases. Would google search numbers count as support to move this forward?
    They wouldn't support anything you've made a claim on, no. Phrases like "seems pretty obvious" is really just confirmation bias. You don't see what you don't want to see.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #19
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    They wouldn't support anything you've made a claim on, no. Phrases like "seems pretty obvious" is really just confirmation bias. You don't see what you don't want to see.
    But didn't you just do the same thing to show support that there was coverage about VA? How is it OK for you to show that there were 9 articles to support your point but not me to do a similar thing to support mine?

  20. #20
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: VA Scandal - an study of a real scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    But didn't you just do the same thing to show support that there was coverage about VA? How is it OK for you to show that there were 9 articles to support your point but not me to do a similar thing to support mine?
    You don't recognize the difference between saying: "Fox has covered this, here is a list of articles in the last 10 days on the matter." And: "there is no coverage of this issue, here is a generic google search of the internet?"

    The former is tied to the claim at hand, the latter is simply a search of traffic on the internet.





    And just to forestall your predictable complaint about me requesting support unreasonable support, let me show to you that this is in fact nothing more than your own confirmation bias:

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    1. No conspiracies linking the Administration's direct hand.
    First, this seems an odd criteria for comparison. Unlike the IRS or Benghazi, this currently is confined more or less to the Phoenix VA site. There are no indications of this being VA policy or it coming from a senior appointed official (unlike what was shown in the IRS (lerner) and Benghazi (clinton) cases). However, ABC disagrees with you:

    This doesn’t look good.

    The person nominated two weeks ago to replace the VA’s outgoing undersecretary for health was responsible for supervising one of the hospitals at the center of the current scandal.

    Dr. Jeffrey Murawsky was nominated on May 1 to replace Dr. Robert Petzel as undersecretary of health at the Department of Veterans of Affairs. Petzel’s “resignation” was officially announced today, although his impending retirement was first announced last September.

    Murawsky is currently the network director–effectively the CEO–of the VA region that includes the Edward Hines, Jr. VA Hospital in Chicago. Before he moved up the VA hierarchy, he worked as a manager at the hospital.

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...nted-hospital/
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    2. No wall to wall coverage of this new scandal. Certainly not as much as there has been on Benghazi or the IRS or Birtherism and other right-wing conspiracies.
    This is generic, broad and undefined statement. As I pointed out, Fox has had 9 articles in the last 48 hours. CNN has had 10 in the same period. Drudge has had 5 headlines, including a top headline on this issue. Townhall has had 8 articles since 8May. American Thinker has had 7 in the last week.

    So clearly there has been significant coverage within Conservative circles of this issue in the last couple of weeks.


    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    3. No committees investigating this has been announced even thought the department has been in trouble for at least a year.
    Sec. Shinseki testified before a committee on this subject on the 15th. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...mony-watchdog/

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    4. Issa, paranoid investigator in chief, has yet to scream about it.
    Generally Rep. Issa doesn't make statements until after initial committee hearings. Shinseki is finalizing that hearing date now. However, Issa's committee has subpoenaed records on this matter, so it hard to argue that he is being silent on this issue: http://washingtonexaminer.com/embatt...e/feed/2133115

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    5. No foxnews.com front-page coverage (there's the usual hysteria around ObamaCare, which I forgot to mention earlier).
    Front page article from foxnews.com about the VA scandal: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...cmp=latestnews

    Featured on the front page at 2030EST 17May2014.





    So literally every single statement you made in post 8 was based solely your unfamiliarity with the issue rather than data. Given that all 5 items you listed were incorrect, we can safely reject your comparison in the OP and later.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  21. Likes MindTrap028, Sigfried liked this post
 

 
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The NEA Scandal
    By chadn737 in forum Politics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 11th, 2009, 05:41 PM
  2. Obama scandal brewing
    By Spartacus in forum Member Contributed News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: August 26th, 2008, 02:42 AM
  3. Shame And Scandal In The Family
    By Snoop in forum Jokes and Humor
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: August 14th, 2007, 09:22 AM
  4. Possible Kerry Intern Scandal
    By Chris in forum Politics
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: February 22nd, 2004, 10:46 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •