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  1. #41
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Actually, I made no such statement. The entire statement was, "It may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this.".
    What does "full Benghazi" mean? [This is a JJ term; please define it for us.]

    What does full Benghazi have to do with the Veterans issue?

    What may be relevant?
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  2. #42
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    .

    What does "full Benghazi" mean? [This is a JJ term; please define it for us.]

    What does full Benghazi have to do with the Veterans issue?

    What may be relevant?
    I would love to discuss this but unfortunately, I am blocked from doing so until our friend drops his preconceptions and challenges. I certainly don't want to fall afoul of the rules to continue using a term that is currently being challenged. He also needs to disassociate this term, which is a metaphor anyway, from the previous OP he's insisting is related, since they're two different things. Mostly though, he needs to not go full Benghazi on the phrase full Benghazi .
    Last edited by JimJones8934; May 24th, 2014 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Actually, I made no such statement. The entire statement was "[COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#333333]It may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this.".
    Exactly, something maybe relevant to why an event is occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I would love to discuss this but unfortunately, I am blocked from doing so until our friend drops his preconceptions and challenges.
    JJ, nothing about the challenge issued prevents you from explaining what you meant to Eye here.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #44
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post

    1. No one is disputing there is something real, right?
    2. Can the GOP turn this into a real issue? Will they?
    3. Does the right-wing media need to lie about this in order to do so?
    4. Will the inevitable comparisons regarding the failed Benghazi & IRS 'scandals' hurt or harm Republican attempts to turn this into a political issue?
    1. There is a scandal, but it appears mostly to be within the VA, itself. No one is claiming Obama or the WH asked the VA to doctor the records. So, the nature of this scandal is different than the IRS and Benghazi scandals where the GOP believe the WH was directly involved.

    2. The issue, as it concerns the WH, is one of incompetence. Obama cannot claim he didn't know the VA was having issues since fixing the VA was one of his campaign promises. Obama, in his six years, did absolutely nothing measurable to correct the problems in the VA which he promised to fix.

    3. I think the Benghazi and IRS issues play right into the GOP narrative. Obama is aloof, the people he puts into leadership positions are incompetent (let's not forget Sebelius), and Obama consistently fails to take the Truman approach; the buck never seems to stop with him.

    Really, though, the bigger problem for Democrats is that Obama's perceived incompetence hinders their own efforts to win elections. I don't really know what your OP is trying to achieve other than deflect attention away from another Obama failure. You can wave your hands and point at the GOP all you like. It does not overcome the ineptitude we've witnessed from Obama and his administration. By the way, the latest team Obama blunder, exposing the CIA station chief's name... geez. I think the American people unwittingly voted Alfred E. Neuman as President.

    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  6. #45
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    JJ: It may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this
    Exactly, something maybe relevant to why an event is occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?
    No. It's not even the correct predicate - it's why something is NOT something. Try again.

    JJ, nothing about the challenge issued prevents you from explaining what you meant to Eye here.
    Given your propensity to draw conclusions where they are not warranted; e.g. your tenuous link of the statement above to the previously withdrawn OP, I'd rather not have to waste cycles dealing with an additional parsing of minutiae while you try and grasp straws to support your original challenge from #24:

    JJ, you were challenged to support this statement in your first thread and declined. Either support or retract this statement.

    Since we're still even discussing your understanding of the statement (which has been wrong on multiple fronts), potentially giving you another reason to go Full Benghazi and derail another conversation is not in the best interests of anyone.

  7. #46
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    No. It's not even the correct predicate - it's why something is NOT something. Try again.
    Uh huh. "...something maybe relevant to why an event is not occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Since we're still even discussing your understanding of the statement (which has been wrong on multiple fronts), potentially giving you another reason to go Full Benghazi and derail another conversation is not in the best interests of anyone.
    So you are unwilling to explain what you meant by invoking that statement?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #47
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Uh huh. "...something maybe relevant to why an event is not occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?
    Nope. Still wrong - I didn't say that anything is not occurring either. Please look back at the words I used and reform another statement regarding your position.


    So you are unwilling to explain what you meant by invoking that statement?
    No, I am currently responding to a challenge that is incorrect on multiple fronts that includes getting you to understand the statement itself and to remove the linking of it to the previously dropped OP. Once all three have been completed, then my discussion with Eye can begin in earnest.

    Please focus on our own thread and don't worry about other people's conversations; or try and trap me into some bizzaro breaking of a rule. Going full Benghazi on me by getting distracted with every little butterfly that flitters by, may be in keeping with the mindset with those that believe Benghazi is a real issue, but I don't have that amount of energy to pursue too many different lines of thought.

  9. #48
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Nope. Still wrong - I didn't say that anything is not occurring either. Please look back at the words I used and reform another statement regarding your position.
    Your exact phrase was: It [President Bush's actions] may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this.

    Is that a correct statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Please focus on our own thread and don't worry about other people's conversations;
    It is relevant to my conversation with you since I am challenging you to support a statement you made. Please explain what that statement means or explicitly retract the statement made in post 23 quoted above.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  10. #49
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Your exact phrase was: It [President Bush's actions] may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this.

    Is that a correct statement?
    Firstly, I made no mention of Bush's actions either. You're filling in blanks that are not warranted.

    Your two descriptions of it:

    Exactly, something maybe relevant to why an event is occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?
    Uh huh. "...something maybe relevant to why an event is not occurring. That is what you are saying here correct?

    Are both wrong. Please try again so that you can demonstrate that you understand what I am saying.

    It is relevant to my conversation with you since I am challenging you to support a statement you made. Please explain what that statement means or explicitly retract the statement made in post 23 quoted above.
    Yes, you said "JJ, nothing about the challenge issued prevents you from explaining what you meant to Eye here.", appears to contradict your statement above which now directly links even a separate thread to your own challenge, which is still non-factual, and still haven't shown an accurate understanding of what I am saying.

    Since you don't even have an understanding of what I mean (even though I have helped you at least twice), the challenge is meaningless! There is no reason to retract my statement because your understanding of it is flawed - after 20 posts and two tries you still have it wrong and appear to have given up and now you're distracting yourself with another thread!

  11. #50
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Firstly, I made no mention of Bush's actions either.
    You seem to be forgetting your own conversation:

    JJ: That makes it worse for Bush for stretching a system beyond breaking point. (post 19)

    MT: So? What does Bush have to do with anything? Again.. this is a red herring. (post 20)

    JJ: He set the ball rolling. (post 21)

    MT: He didn't invent the VA, and He didn't invent war or the military or injury. He made his contributions, but it's not like the problems are his fault. The VA wasn't wonderful under Carter, then Bad under Reagan. .. or it wasn't great UNTIL Bush took office. What set the ball rolling was the gov trying to do what it can't.. which is run healthcare effectively. Your just Bush bashing.. and in an irrelevant way. (post 22)

    JJ: It may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this. (Post 23).

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Are both wrong. Please try again so that you can demonstrate that you understand what I am saying.
    Question to opponent. Then please detail what you meant exactly by the second half of that statement. "may be relevant as to why Republicans aren't going full Benghazi over this" Why are President Bush's actions relevant and relevant to what action or inaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Yes, you said "JJ, nothing about the challenge issued prevents you from explaining what you meant to Eye here."
    Not at all, I simply said that explaining what the phrase meant would not violate the challenge rule.

    Question to opponent. What do you mean when you use the term "full Benghazi?"
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  12. #51
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Pardon me gentlemen but what a load of crap!

    To me it is pretty damned clear what JJ was saying. He is expressing his belief that the republicans have not used this situation as a weapon against the Obama administration the way they have with the events of Benghazi. He suspects this is because George Bush can also be implicated in the dysfunction of the VA.

    I think he is likely correct that the GOP and its supporters have not used this event quite as much as an attack point as Benghazi. I think the reasons for that are both that it is a more recent news story and that there is far more ambiguity and complexity to the story making it harder to pun squarely on Obama's shoulders alone.

    I think if JJ wanted to support this claim he need only compare the official actions taken on Benghazi to the actions taken on the VA issue. he could also compare like statements on the two issues from popular right wing pundits. Squatch could likewise make such comparisons and you could both have something of a substantive discussion on the issue.

    Instead we have a rather painful and pointless back and forth with JJ being elusive and Squatch being belligerent. Each seemingly challenging the other to sink lower and lower on the scale of who can make a more derivative argument when the main subject is simply more work to discuss.

    So Gentlemen, turn you ire to me and show us how well you can demonstrate that the VA issue is or is not being used as a political weapon of mass destruction and if you are so bold suggest why.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #52
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    To me it is pretty damned clear what JJ was saying. He is expressing his belief that the republicans have not used this situation as a weapon against the Obama administration the way they have with the events of Benghazi.
    Ok, fair enough. Then why not support it? Why insist on dodging the issue? It clearly is a claim, (a discussion about what actions or inaction Republicans have taken) and if it is more than an emotional belief he should evidence to support it. So why lob it out there and then refuse to offer the evidence when asked?

    And importantly Sig, why retract the statement in another thread and then re-issue it here and then refuse to offer the evidence?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #53
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Ok, fair enough. Then why not support it? Why insist on dodging the issue? It clearly is a claim, (a discussion about what actions or inaction Republicans have taken) and if it is more than an emotional belief he should evidence to support it. So why lob it out there and then refuse to offer the evidence when asked?

    And importantly Sig, why retract the statement in another thread and then re-issue it here and then refuse to offer the evidence?
    Firstly, there is no claim being made. Secondly, I am not restating the statements from the thread that I had officially dropped in it's entirety. Dragging a challenge from there into another one here is why nothing is moving forward. I fear that any more information would only compound your original error. Such as when you inserted yourself not eye's question.

    Continuing down this line of thought is ludicrous and betrays a penchant for finding connections to hurt an opponent that is not really based on fact and even if it were true, is largely meaningless. Hmm, similar to other manufactured scandals I can think of.

    Inventing problems that aren't there, not accepting a truthful accounting of my position, dragging invalidated statements from place to place and interjecting yourself appears to be very a very similar modus operandi to other manufactured scandals.

    You need to withdraw your original challenge and decouple these threads. Please do so.

  15. #54
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    I think if JJ wanted to support this claim...
    Squatch has every right to be "belligerent" (i.e. requesting that JJ adhere to the established rules at ODN), as JJ insists that:

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones
    Firstly, there is no claim being made.
    ...even though you, Squatch, eye, myself and likely every other observer to this thread can agree that there is a positive claim being made.

  16. #55
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Firstly, there is no claim being made.
    Well, some people are under the impression that you are holding the position that "the Republicans are not going Full Benghazi".

    So if you disavow that position, and whether the disavowing comes from a retraction or just a statement that you weren't forwarding that position in the first place, that's fine. Either way, the position is no longer being forwarded in this debate and everyone, including you, can cease discussing it.

    On the other hand if you are going to continue to say that ""the Republicans are not going Full Benghazi", then you do need to support it as you have been challenged to.

  17. #56
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    Squatch has every right to be "belligerent" (i.e. requesting that JJ adhere to the established rules at ODN), as JJ insists that:
    Just because you have a right to do a thing doesn't mean there is any virtue in it.

    Again, you are all continuing to discuss one another and tactics and not to actually debate the damned issue. I'd love to see less lawyering and more debating in this and other threads.

    Lets try this shall we...
    Perhaps one of the reasons this is used less as a wedge issue is simply because there is broad bipartisan indignation about this particular scandal and that when both sides agree it makes a pretty bad wedge issue unless you can point to specific incompetence.

    Benghazi involved direct administration decisions in the executive branch and statements by Obama Appointees. This issue lies both in congress and with the President and involves the nations second largest bureaucracy (size according to reports I heard).

    Both the scope of blame is far wider and the issue far less derisive and partisan so naturally its less of a political hot button.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #57
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Again, you are all continuing to discuss one another and tactics and not to actually debate the damned issue.
    Are you making a claim that the veterans affair is a dammed issue? Humm... that may be even more questionable then full Benghazi.

    However, I won't ask you to support why the veterans affair is dammed. But if you want to email and/or call your local senator and tell him to fix the problem now that would be helpful.
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  20. #58
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    Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, some people are under the impression that you are holding the position that "the Republicans are not going Full Benghazi".

    So if you disavow that position, and whether the disavowing comes from a retraction or just a statement that you weren't forwarding that position in the first place, that's fine. Either way, the position is no longer being forwarded in this debate and everyone, including you, can cease discussing it.

    On the other hand if you are going to continue to say that ""the Republicans are not going Full Benghazi", then you do need to support it as you have been challenged to.
    It's not really a 'claim'. It's a speculation and you're not quoting the whole statement.
    Also, Squatch's challenge is incorrectly linking it to the previous thread and needs to be dropped.

  21. #59
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    It's not really a 'claim'. It's a speculation and you're not quoting the whole statement.
    I didn't say it's a claim. I said it's a "position" and it's a position that is being challenged. You can either stand by that position (and therefore are required to support it if the position is challenged) or can disavow the position (for any reason, including the reason that you weren't adopting it in the first place) and the need to discuss it further ceases (along with any rationale for challenging it).

    So take your pick. Do you stand by that position or do you disavow it?
    Last edited by mican333; May 29th, 2014 at 03:43 PM.

  22. #60
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    Re: Veterans Affairs - a study of scandal in the making? [Take 2]

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn't say it's a claim. I said it's a "position" and it's a position that is being challenged. You can either stand by that position (and therefore are required to support it) or can disavow the position (for any reason, including the reason that you weren't adopting it in the first place) and the need to discuss it further ceases.

    So take your pick. Do you stand by it or do you disavow it?
    Then the position stands but the challenge isn't on that alone but links it to a prior thread that I had already abandoned in order to have the substantive discussion that Sig is asking for.

    That Squatch feels the need to pull different threads together isn't my doing. But mentioning Benghazi sometimes has odd effects on certain people.

    The challenge needs to be withdrawn in order to continue.

 

 
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