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  1. #41
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So your "relatively independent statements" aren't independent at all, you're using them to corroborate each other.
    You realize that in order to corroborate each other they need to be independent right?

    Statement 1: Radio intercepts detect that SGT Bergdahl is seeking to connect with the Taliban.

    Statement 2: Afghan villagers report that he seemed intent on going to a place they identified as being held by the Taliban.

    These statements corroborate each other because they relate the same facts.

    They are independent because they come from two sources that do not rely on each other (Washington Post and Signals intercepts).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Manikhel wasn't even there. It makes perfect sense since he is operating on heresay. It's nothing but speculation.
    You seem to be using terms contrary to their accepted definitions. Interviewing locals is not "heresay," compiling statements is not "speculation." He is referring to the attitudes of the villagers interviewed by intel agents, and he based his statement on those interviews. His statement still makes no sense unless the villagers told him Bergdahl was seeking out that area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    The VA "scandal" belongs to the republicans. Are they not the one's who care so strongly about the troops?
    31% of people blame Shinseki (a Dem appointee), 28% blame the hospitals themselves (neutral) while 17% directly blame President Obama. Which number in that poll leads you to believe the Republicans own this scandal? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-do-a...he-va-scandal/

    Also, why do you put "scandal" in quotes? What implication are you attempting to put forward?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't have to, the right wing run media does it all the time...not only their health care, according to conservatives/republicans, whatever, democrats don't care about vets at all.
    Are you going to debate on behalf of the media or are you going to present your own hopefully well-reasoned argument about your comment on the democrats and the veterans?
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  3. #43
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you going to debate on behalf of the media or are you going to present your own hopefully well-reasoned argument about your comment on the democrats and the veterans?
    I just did. I did not "imply" anything. It is stated over and over by the right as a political means.

    Do you want to debate whether it is true?

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You realize that in order to corroborate each other they need to be independent right?

    Statement 1: Radio intercepts detect that SGT Bergdahl is seeking to connect with the Taliban.

    Statement 2: Afghan villagers report that he seemed intent on going to a place they identified as being held by the Taliban.

    These statements corroborate each other because they relate the same facts.

    They are independent because they come from two sources that do not rely on each other (Washington Post and Signals intercepts).



    You seem to be using terms contrary to their accepted definitions. Interviewing locals is not "heresay," compiling statements is not "speculation." He is referring to the attitudes of the villagers interviewed by intel agents, and he based his statement on those interviews. His statement still makes no sense unless the villagers told him Bergdahl was seeking out that area.
    Even if he was, that doesn't mean he was a traitor.

    Since he is back now and we will be getting his side of the story I'm going to bail out of this debate for now.

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    31% of people blame Shinseki (a Dem appointee), 28% blame the hospitals themselves (neutral) while 17% directly blame President Obama. Which number in that poll leads you to believe the Republicans own this scandal? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-do-a...he-va-scandal/

    Also, why do you put "scandal" in quotes? What implication are you attempting to put forward?

    That, once again, the myth is being put forward that democrats don't care about the military.

    The fact are slowly, as usual, coming out. Possible problems with the surveys and reporting methods might have inflated the problem.

    and 17% are going to blame Obama for anything...Iraq falling to pieces...hello? turns out Biden was right.
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  4. #44
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I just did. I did not "imply" anything. It is stated over and over by the right as a political means.

    Do you want to debate whether it is true?[COLOR="Silver"]
    Do you mean to ask: "does Cowboy want to support that Democrats don't support the health care quality of veterans?" Or do you want to present a reasoned argument that Democrats don't support the health care quality off U.S. veterans? Or perhaps you accept that Democrats certainly support the health care quality of veterans. Do you agree that Democrats support the health care quality of U.S. veterans?
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  5. #45
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Do you agree that Democrats support the health care quality of U.S. veterans?
    Of course.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #46
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Of course.
    So did you mean to say instead of: "The VA "scandal" belongs to the republicans. Are they not the one's who care so strongly about the troops?"


    "The current hearth care issues with regards to the United States veterans is of concern to both Democrats and Republicans who both strongly care about the troops and the quality of health care that veterans receive."
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  7. #47
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Update on this story, the General Accounting Office has found the trade to be illegal.

    President Obama violated a “clear and unambiguous” law when he released five Guantanamo Bay detainees in exchange for Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, the Government Accountability Office reported Thursday.

    “[The Department of Defense] violated section 8111 because it did not notify the relevant congressional committees at least 30 days in advance of the transfer,” the GAO report said. “In addition, because DOD used appropriated funds to carry out the transfer when no money was available for that purpose, DOD violated the Antideficiency Act. The Antideficiency Act prohibits federal agencies from incurring obligations exceeding an amount available in an appropriation.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...7i4CgAg&wsc=yh
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #48
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Ehh, the law is the law, if he breaks it or Bush breaks it they break it and frankly they shouldn't.

    Mind you I'm not 100% lawful and sometimes you bind or break a rule for what you think is right but still, you have to face the music for it none the less. Lawyers will fight it out. I'm not sure what impact this kind of ruling actually has.
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  9. #49
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Ehh, the law is the law, if he breaks it or Bush breaks it they break it and frankly they shouldn't.

    Mind you I'm not 100% lawful and sometimes you bind or break a rule for what you think is right but still, you have to face the music for it none the less. Lawyers will fight it out. I'm not sure what impact this kind of ruling actually has.
    It's an ROI question - is getting one of your own soldiers back worth getting into trouble with the law on? What is the exact punishment and who gets punished? I don't understand why anyone would make a different calculation (unless you're after the black guy in the WH).

  10. #50
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    According to the report, Bush also broke this law:
    I agree, the report argues that his use of the funds to procure legal services was illegal. How does that relate to this specific incident? This thread is about the SGT Bergdahl’s exchange. If you wish to start a different thread about that particular activity feel free, but it isn’t relevant to the thread here.

    Would you like me to move this post to a new thread for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig
    Mind you I'm not 100% lawful and sometimes you bind or break a rule for what you think is right but still, you have to face the music for it none the less. Lawyers will fight it out. I'm not sure what impact this kind of ruling actually has.
    I think this is a valid point. The GAO report notes several legal violations. The anti-deficiency act one is probably the least compelling given that Congress did authorize funds later and some argument could be made that DoD could re-obligate funds away from a similar purpose to this purpose within the confines of statutory language.

    Why the Administration didn’t make that argument I’m not sure. The argument that the Anti-deficiency act is unconstitutional was absurd and must have served some other purpose (a thumb of their nose to congress or something, I’m not sure).

    The GAO also reported that the Administration violated the requirement to notify Congress in advance, which I think is more compelling because they clearly had the time to do so, but chose not to. That would be a breach of power separation and somewhat troubling.

    Now as for your point on impact, I agree I’m not sure what recourse there really is here. Obviously this is well below any kind of legal sanction to the President. They aren’t going to return SGT Bergdahl. Money is not going to get replaced. Maybe some underling will get fired, but its doubtful. I’m not sure what real recourse Congress would have except to add it to the list of legal violations and move on.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #51
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Obama sets free five top militant Islamists, gives Bergdahl a hero's welcome in the Rose Garden, and now the military charges Bergdahl with desertion.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...rtion/?hpid=z1

    IMO, Obama looks like a fool.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. Thanks Squatch347, MindTrap028, Sigfried thanked for this post
  13. #52
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Obama sets free five top militant Islamists, gives Bergdahl a hero's welcome in the Rose Garden, and now the military charges Bergdahl with desertion.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...rtion/?hpid=z1

    IMO, Obama looks like a fool.
    I' not sure if political moves are judged through the same lens of rational humans hopefully embrace to lead productive, happy, moral and meaningful lives. I think we would both agree that politics can often seem senseless, and yes, humans do have to make a decision to put what doesn't make sense to the many into motion. I do agree that this was one of those political moves that did not make sense that was put into motion by someone who had the power to put it in motion.
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  14. #53
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Obama sets free five top militant Islamists, gives Bergdahl a hero's welcome in the Rose Garden, and now the military charges Bergdahl with desertion.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...rtion/?hpid=z1

    IMO, Obama looks like a fool.
    Would you rather have seen ISIS behead him? What choice did Obama have? That said, I don't get how the decision to not exchange prisoners for the women that was recently killed is made. I think there's some other calculus going on.

  15. #54
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Would you rather have seen ISIS behead him? What choice did Obama have? That said, I don't get how the decision to not exchange prisoners for the women that was recently killed is made. I think there's some other calculus going on.
    That is really a false delima. The problem is that we strengthened the enemy in the trade and did not receive value for it. Trading 5 leaders to get Audie Murphy back would have been well worth the trade, and we would feel we got a bargan.

    But getting a deserter back is more like 1 or zero.

    It was a bad trade, that doesn't mean we wish him beheaded. It just means Obama got owned at the negotiating table.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  17. #55
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is really a false delima. The problem is that we strengthened the enemy in the trade and did not receive value for it. Trading 5 leaders to get Audie Murphy back would have been well worth the trade, and we would feel we got a bargan.

    But getting a deserter back is more like 1 or zero.

    It was a bad trade, that doesn't mean we wish him beheaded. It just means Obama got owned at the negotiating table.
    Was it really known at the time he was a deserter? And even if he was, leaving him a prisoner does seem to be a good idea either. What really drove his release and how is his situation different from other hostage situations? I just don't think we know enough about the decision making process. Maybe one of the released prisoners is a double agent.

  18. #56
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Was it really known at the time he was a deserter? And even if he was, leaving him a prisoner does seem to be a good idea either. What really drove his release and how is his situation different from other hostage situations? I just don't think we know enough about the decision making process. Maybe one of the released prisoners is a double agent.
    yes, it was known especially to one who was negotiating his release. (They knew who they were getting and how he was in the situation he was in).
    As to the double agent idea and all. Well, we can only make judgment on what we know, and there is no reason to think one is a double agent or that there is more information to be known.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  20. #57
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    "Wednesday's announcement brought further criticism of the exchange from some lawmakers, including U.S. Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas and the chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security.

    "President Obama endangered our national security and broke the law when he chose to negotiate with terrorists and release hardened enemy combatants from Guantanamo Bay in exchange for Sgt. Bergdahl — who many believed at the time was a deserter," McCaul said in a statement."


    http://benswann.com/tx-bill-restrict...e-journalists/


    I didn't know the taliban were terrorists. Have they committed acts of terrorism against us?
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Cowboy, at least some Taliban are considered terrorists by the government and we are engaged in combat with them in Afghanistan. At the least they are enemy combatants.

    Certainly the rose garden treatment was a bad move.

    I already laid out the case that american military policy is not to make "good trades" when it comes to releasing american prisoners of war. Generally we simply try to get them back. And while I agree getting a deserter back is no great gain, neither do I think the men we released pose any great threat nor likely had great value to us other than as leverage.

    All in all I agree this doesn't look good for the administration but I'm not sure from a substance point of view it really matters one way or the other.
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  22. #59
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Certainly the rose garden treatment was a bad move.
    Possibly, the story did go away for a bit there, so politically it might have been expedient. I'll agree it was trying to salvage something from the situation.

    He was a deserter and that's what he's been charged with. Not a traitor though. Supposedly he had gone on such "walkabouts" before so I'd be hesitant to hold a naive, reportedly troubled person responsible for unintended consequences of the decision to get him back.

    There were questions surrounding his disappearance and there is a level of responsibility for us to clear them up, no matter how small.

    Did the trade have the consequence (again unintended) of inciting even more radical elements in the middle east to begin taking hostages, making demands, and even beheading them? Maybe, though they were doing that before.

    I could also point to the tremendous amount of news coverage surrounding the trade (especially that geared toward gaining political points against the president) as an equally plausible enticement to those seeking attention.
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  23. #60
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    Re: SGT Bowe Bergdahl exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Would you rather have seen ISIS behead him?
    Except that Isis didn't have him right? And the group that did certainly showed no willingness to execute him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Was it really known at the time he was a deserter?
    Yes, please see the date of my initial posts. It had already been determined via a 15-6 investigation that he had deserted and numerous reports from both SF teams and his fellow soldiers indicated that was the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    He was a deserter and that's what he's been charged with. Not a traitor though.
    Actually that is incorrect. Under UCMJ (the applicable legal system here), desertion of your post in the face of the enemy is considered treason since by your act you are aiding the enemy.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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