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  1. #81
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support this claim. I don't see any evidence that it is true or even a reasonable conclusion. Suicide by cop, from what I've read and seen, usually involves a slow approach to a cop with a knife or gun, or taking on an overwhelming number of police. Here is one recent example in Saint Louis (warning - graphic violence): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-P5...ctr=1408719418 That guy did something that would bring the police, waited for them, and then advanced on them holding a knife. Brown didn't do any of that. He beat up the cop who tried to talk to him and was then leaving, before the cop recovered and told Brown to freeze. Then Brown thought he could bumrush the cop and get a way with it again. He didn't succeed. Like I said in the op, he attacked the wrong person, and got what he deserved. I think my interpretation is better supported by the facts than yours.
    It was from the claim of the other poster saying that he'd beaten the cop first. I have no idea whether that is true but if it were then you'd have to maintain that the black community caused him to do this.

    F
    irst, what do you think of the numbers in the Rasmussen poll I presented, in which only 35% of blacks nationwide were willing to say that mob violence is a criminal act and not legitimate expression? What do you think that says about black culture?
    \
    It's no different from those right-wingers' 'don't tread on me' phrase or the gun-owners vehemence when their little toys are threatened to be taken away. People in the US tend towards violence for all sorts of perceptions of government over-reach. A person on this board even threatened a revolution against the left-wing progressives and liberals.

    Also, many people on this board have taken to this kind of virtual lynching of a dead kid's reputation - what does that say about right-wing ODN culture?

  2. #82
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    It's no different from those right-wingers' 'don't tread on me' phrase or the gun-owners vehemence when their little toys are threatened to be taken away. People in the US tend towards violence for all sorts of perceptions of government over-reach. A person on this board even threatened a revolution against the left-wing progressives and liberals.

    Also, many people on this board have taken to this kind of virtual lynching of a dead kid's reputation - what does that say about right-wing ODN culture?

    Tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/;[1] Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position. It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented.[2] It is a special case of ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #83
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/;[1] Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position. It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented.[2] It is a special case of ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
    What position is being forwarded though? It appears to be part of the larger narrative in right-wing circles that Obama likes to break the law which is part of the arguments for his impeachment. In recognizing that not only has this law been broken by Bush with no equivalent outcry nor recognition thereof you are attempting to paint a false picture with regards to how this law is treated in the larger picture. Ignoring that it has been broken multiple times, you are hiding the fact that this law is one whose consequences are trivial.

    The perspective I am putting forward is that this is no worse than Obama littering and that right-wing 'outrage' on this is not only hypocritical but mainly highlights their lack of real attack points on Obama. Remember Benghazi and the other false scandals. I think this is another one.

    Carry on if you want but it seems like this is going nowhere. But it does appear that right-wingers would prefer to leave a soldier behind lest they break a little bit of red tape or they're afraid of being smacked on the wrist for doing so.

  4. #84
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    This isn't the SGT Bergdahl exchange thread.

    Your confusion is understandable because of your frequent use of the tu quoque fallacy in thread after thread.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  6. #85
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This isn't the SGT Bergdahl exchange thread.

    Your confusion is understandable because of your frequent use of the tu quoque fallacy in thread after thread.
    My confusion is that most right wing arguments fall apart in a very similar manner! Not sure what you meant by your fallacy though. What were you referring to?

  7. #86
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    My confusion is that most right wing arguments fall apart in a very similar manner! Not sure what you meant by your fallacy though. What were you referring to?
    The arguments do not fall apart because of your "whataboutery" efforts. Example: If I say "JJ is a poor debater", and you respond "Evensaul, what about you? You're a poor debater too!", your accusation doesn't prove that I'm wrong about you being a poor debater. "Right wing arguments" do not fall apart just because you claim that they are hypocrites. That is a tu quoque fallacy, which you use a lot, and which most of us have just been ignoring when you do it. Here, I thought I'd point it out and try to explain it to you. In this thread, your pointing to what gun owners, right wingers, or other posters on ODN have to say about progressives has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether black thug culture is responsible for Michael Brown's death.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #87
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The arguments do not fall apart because of your "whataboutery" efforts. Example: If I say "JJ is a poor debater", and you respond "Evensaul, what about you? You're a poor debater too!", your accusation doesn't prove that I'm wrong about you being a poor debater. "Right wing arguments" do not fall apart just because you claim that they are hypocrites. That is a tu quoque fallacy, which you use a lot, and which most of us have just been ignoring when you do it.
    Right but what falls apart is your moral claim that I'm a bad debater - that's why I broaden the context.

    Here, I thought I'd point it out and try to explain it to you. In this thread, your pointing to what gun owners, right wingers, or other posters on ODN have to say about progressives has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether black thug culture is responsible for Michael Brown's death.
    Agreed, but that wasn't what I was trying to do there. In the thread I thought I was responding to, I was pointing out that the lawbreaking in Bergdahl case is both justified and also already broken.

    In this specific case, I am trying to determine whether you actually believe that Michael Brown's suicide by cop (if some of what is said is true) is a product of black culture. That is, does being in a black culture increase the propensity for suicidal aggression against cops. I believe this doesn't have anything to do with your fallacy. So perhaps you posted it in the wrong post, it seems to belong more in the other post. Correct?

  9. #88
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Right but what falls apart is your moral claim that I'm a bad debater - that's why I broaden the context.
    There is no "moral claim". It is just a claim of fact, not morality. Pointing out hypocrisy does not refute the claim. The claim that you are a bad debater isn't automatically false just because you counterclaim that I am a bad debater.

    The same with my position in this thread. My claim is that black thug culture influenced Brown's attack on the officer. That by itself is not a moral claim, but rather a claim of fact supported by the evidence. Any claim that you make against right-wing culture, implying hypocrisy by me or others on the issue, is an ad hominem "tu quoque" fallacy, which does not refute my claim.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #89
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There is no "moral claim". It is just a claim of fact, not morality. Pointing out hypocrisy does not refute the claim.
    Claim of the fact that black culture makes people suicidal?

    The same with my position in this thread. My claim is that black thug culture influenced Brown's attack on the officer. That by itself is not a moral claim, but rather a claim of fact supported by the evidence.
    I don't disagree that this is your claim but you do understand the consequences of attacking a cop don't you? It gets you killed! So are you factually saying that black culture influences people to suicide by cop?

    Any claim that you make against right-wing culture, implying hypocrisy by me or others on the issue, is an ad hominem "tu quoque" fallacy, which does not refute my claim.
    I don't think I'm doing that in this case. I am wondering why you think it's true.

  11. #90
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    You've offered no support for the claim that his actions were suicide by cop. In fact, you've not even made the claim, but say that others have suggested it. Until you make the claim and support it, I don't see any reason to respond to your questions.

    I think I'm done with you here, JJ. Debating you is a complete was of time.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #91
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You've offered no support for the claim that his actions were suicide by cop. In fact, you've not even made the claim, but say that others have suggested it. Until you make the claim and support it, I don't see any reason to respond to your questions.

    I think I'm done with you here, JJ. Debating you is a complete was of time.
    You said he attacked the policeman! What else happens to people that attack policemen? Sounds like you're trying to have your cake and eat it - trying to blame black culture for terrible things but when those things suddenly look ridiculous then you walk it all back. Typical.

  13. #92
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    JJ, you seem to have missed my request for support. Can you support the following claim you made, "it has been revealed that Brown seemed to be suiciding by way of cop..." Challenge to support a claim.

    If you are going to maintain that his attacking of a police officer is the same thing as suicide by cop, you'll need to offer support for that comparison.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #93
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    JJ, you seem to have missed my request for support. Can you support the following claim you made, "it has been revealed that Brown seemed to be suiciding by way of cop..." Challenge to support a claim.

    If you are going to maintain that his attacking of a police officer is the same thing as suicide by cop, you'll need to offer support for that comparison.
    Well, if you don't think attacking a cop by punching his head and causing ocular damage of some kind and then refusing to stop approaching when demanded by said cop is not suicidal then I have no idea what is.

    It is well known that cops carry guns and also well known they do not take lightly to being punched in the head nor would the cop have failed to warn him that he was about to be killed.

    So unless Brown was stupid or otherwise mentally incapable at the then suicide is the only option.

  15. #94
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Well, if you don't think attacking a cop by punching his head and causing ocular damage of some kind and then refusing to stop approaching when demanded by said cop is not suicidal then I have no idea what is.
    Generally it is called assault. And assault can be a part of suicide by cop, or it can be part of some other activity. Additionally, suicide by cop doesn't necessarily need to have assault either. Given that the actions you point out are neither necessary nor sufficient to warrant a conclusion of suicide by cop, what evidence do you have to support that claim?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  16. #95
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    Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Generally it is called assault.
    Generally, in situations that aren't likely to result in death, you'd be right. But here we are talking about a man that after attacking a cop, ignored said cop's warning to keep away. Presumably, the cop would have warned him of his imminent death or at least shown his weapon. Being defenseless and aware of what he had just done, along with his knowledge of similar situations if black men and cops, that pretty much sounds like someone who expected to die.

    So either the cop made no such warning, lulling Brown into a false sense of bravado; or he did and Brown ignored a clear warning of his imminent death if he proceeded towards then cop; or he was actually walking away and the cop shot him any way. His approach is definitely not assault because the shooting was for his not being warned away, not the original attack. If it was the original attack then the cop was shooting him as retribution. So which is it?


    And assault can be a part of suicide by cop, or it can be part of some other activity.
    CHALLENGE: what other activity would that be where it is pertinent to the scenario?

    Additionally, suicide by cop doesn't necessarily need to have assault either.
    Again, you seem to be inventing a situation that isn't the case. Do you agree or not agree that Brown attacked the cop to cause ocular damage or not?

    Given that the actions you point out are neither necessary nor sufficient to warrant a conclusion of suicide by cop, what evidence do you have to support that claim?
    See above. I don't believe you have forwarded an alternative explanation to suicide other than what I have already suggested (stupidity, naïveté or some other mental incapacitation). In which case evensaul would still have to show that it is being in a black community that causes that.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; August 27th, 2014 at 07:28 PM.

  17. #96
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Generally, in situations that aren't likely to result in death, you'd be right. But here we are talking about a man that after attacking a cop, ignored said cop's warning to keep away. Presumably, the cop would have warned him of his imminent death or at least shown his weapon. Being defenseless and aware of what he had just done, along with his knowledge of similar situations if black men and cops, that pretty much sounds like someone who expected to die.

    So either the cop made no such warning, lulling Brown into a false sense of bravado; or he did and Brown ignored a clear warning of his imminent death if he proceeded towards then cop; or he was actually walking away and the cop shot him any way. His approach is definitely not assault because the shooting was for his not being warned away, not the original attack. If it was the original attack then the cop was shooting him as retribution. So which is it?
    False Dichotomy fallacy.

    Assault happens in situations likely to result in death too. Why you think those two are mutually exclusive.

    It should also be noted that Mr. Brown attempted to take the officer's firearm initially as well, so your hypothesis would seem to break down given that fact. The assault started at that point, which speaks to your challenge:

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    CHALLENGE: what other activity would that be where it is pertinent to the scenario?
    Assault can be a part of an attempted murder, robbery, or simply assault for the sake of assault. Mr. Brown was clearly no fan of cops in general. And given that he attempted to remove the cop's firearm, how could his purpose be to commit suicide? Hard to get killed by a cop if you take his weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Again, you seem to be inventing a situation that isn't the case. Do you agree or not agree that Brown attacked the cop to cause ocular damage or not?
    I was the one who pointed out that he assaulted the cop, but it is a huge, unsupported leap between, "he wants to hurt a cop" and "I want that cop to kill me." That is the leap you still need to support JJ. Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    I don't believe you have forwarded an alternative explanation to suicide other than what I have already suggested
    That isn't how our support rule works here JJ. Your claim cannot be supported by saying "you haven't proven me wrong." You have to either support your assertion in this thread or retract it.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  18. #97
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    False Dichotomy fallacy.

    Assault happens in situations likely to result in death too. Why you think those two are mutually exclusive.

    It should also be noted that Mr. Brown attempted to take the officer's firearm initially as well, so your hypothesis would seem to break down given that fact. The assault started at that point, which speaks to your challenge:
    They're not mutually exclusive - I am saying that Mr. Brown acted in a manner that points to a provocation against an armed officer; which, being Black, should give him the expectation of certain death.


    Assault can be a part of an attempted murder, robbery, or simply assault for the sake of assault. Mr. Brown was clearly no fan of cops in general. And given that he attempted to remove the cop's firearm, how could his purpose be to commit suicide? Hard to get killed by a cop if you take his weapon.
    So wait, are you now saying that the cop was attempting to attack Brown first and he was trying to prevent it?



    I was the one who pointed out that he assaulted the cop, but it is a huge, unsupported leap between, "he wants to hurt a cop" and "I want that cop to kill me." That is the leap you still need to support JJ. Challenge to support a claim.
    Hurting someone with a gun pretty much seems like a suicidal act to me. I don't see the leap nor that they are mutually exclusive. There is the scenario the cop was being aggressive against Brown who then tried to fend off a potential death by attacking the cop first and attempting to disarm him. Are you suggesting that this happened?

    That isn't how our support rule works here JJ. Your claim cannot be supported by saying "you haven't proven me wrong." You have to either support your assertion in this thread or retract it.
    Yet you hint at other possibilities in your usual vague way. Either way, you have failed to challenge my point that Brown had to have expected to die given his punching of the cop and the attempt to take his gun. I fail to see how either or both those acts would result in something other than his potential death. The only alternative for Brown to avoid death is to avoid both actions, and walked away.

  19. #98
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    They're not mutually exclusive - I am saying that Mr. Brown acted in a manner that points to a provocation against an armed officer; which, being Black, should give him the expectation of certain death.
    Well the not mutually exclusive was my point. I was asking you to show that assault on an officer necessarily means suicide by cop as you claimed. You still haven’t offered any direct support for that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    So wait, are you now saying that the cop was attempting to attack Brown first and he was trying to prevent it?
    I’m not sure where you got that idea from. Please clarify why you would think that is my point.

    Rather, I’m clearly pointing out that Brown was attempting to take the cop’s firearm when he initially assaulted him. Given that fact, it would seem that suicide by cop is unlikely since it makes it hard for the cop to kill you if you take his firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Hurting someone with a gun pretty much seems like a suicidal act to me.
    1) It is your claim that Brown was attempting to commit suicide by cop. What it “seems” like to you is not support of that claim. Either support or retract that claim. Challenge to support a claim.
    2) When did Brown hurt the officer with a gun? Question to opponent. Please be specific.
    3) How does hurting someone with their own gun imply suicidal ideations? Why not homicidal ideations?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  20. #99
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    Additional information continues to come out about this case. So far all of it supports Officer Wilson's version of the events.

    New autopsy data strongly suggests that Mr. Brown's arms were down when he was shot and that the first round fired was during Brown's attempt to get the gun away from the officer.

    A report by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch this morning shows the official autopsy supports Ferguson officer Darren Wilson’s claim that Michael Brown struggled with him in his patrol vehicle, and that Brown did not have his hands up when he was shot Aug. 9...

    St. Louis medical examiner Dr. Michael Graham says the report supports claims that there was a “significant struggle” in Wilson’s patrol car, and Brown suffered a hand wound at “relatively short range.”

    A forensic pathologist from San Francisco, Dr. Judy Melinek, says based on a bullet wound to Brown’s arm, Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson in the standard surrender position – with hands up and palms out – when he was shot, and Brown was falling forward or lunging when he was hit by the fatal shot to the top of his head.
    http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/10/...el-brown-case/

    Notice the last paragraph, which was my argument from earlier.

    Additional eyewitness accounts from the scene, mostly from African Americans, support Officer Wilson's version of events as well and cast significant doubt on the initial "witnesses" paraded around TV. http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...a29_story.html
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  21. #100
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    Re: Michael Brown Was A Strong-arm Robber

    So after reviewing the evidence, the grand jury chose not to indict officer Wilson. No surprise there, or in the predictable response from the liberal media along with the black community. Although there is still a vocal minority refusing to believe the truth, I'll repeat what I said in the opening op: Michael Brown was just another ghetto thug who got himself killed by attacking the wrong person. Evidence here: http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/fergu.../evidence.html

    What libs refuse to understand is that Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin died, not because of racial profiling or discrimination, but because of their own actions. When you choose to physically attack a person armed with a gun, you will likely end up dead. It is that simple. That isn't racism. It is a matter of common sense.

    And we can move on to the tragic death a couple days ago of a twelve-year old boy in Cleveland. Why did he die? Because he had a pellet gun designed to look exactly like a real gun, from which someone removed the orange cap to complete the image of a real gun, and waved around in a park to scare people, and succeeded in having someone call the police. Although he eventually put it in under has belt, when a police car approached and he was told by an officer to show his hands repeatedly, he reached for the gun. Now he's dead. Not because police wanted to shoot a young black kid, but because he acted like a thug and convinced people he had a deadly weapon and was ready to use it. Who is to blame. He is. His parents are. The black community and their thug culture is responsible. But none of them will accept blame. Instead, they'll blame police policies and procedures and racism.

    And the same kind of thing will happen again, and again and again, because black kids think it is cool to be criminals and stand up to authority.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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