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  1. #21
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Afghanistan? A country that has been in civil war for thirteen years... that's an example you think is representative?

    See if you can find crime statistics for Afghanistan pre - 2001, and there may be something to discuss.
    Last edited by evensaul; August 19th, 2014 at 06:21 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Afghanistan? A country that has been in civil war for thirteen years... that's an example you think is representative?
    I don't know. Why is Saudi Arabia any more representative? I'm currently not making any strong claims that capital punishment is or is not an effective means of preventing crime. You're the one that started this debate by saying that being tougher on crime is going to get us better results, so how about you show that with data instead of merely claiming it? Currently the only thing you've done is compare the United States and Saudi Arabia, as if this is sufficient. It's not. 2 data points is nothing. You can't even begin to establish correlation with data that anemic. I've currently added two data points that run counter to your argument to demonstrate how little data you have. Instead of dismissing that data out of hand and claiming they're not "representative", maybe you can add more data points.
    ~Zealous

  3. #23
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are a lot of things I don't like about Islam. But one thing it does right is the severe punishment of criminals, resulting in very low crime rates in Islamic countries with Sharia Law. Steal and you get a hand cut off. Murder, and you lose your life.

    When I read stories like this one, of two people abducting and sexually assaulting two little girls, I can't think of any reason why these two should go to prison and some day go free again. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/o...ction-25006390 If convicted, those two should be executed, to make damn sure they never prey on little girls again, and to deter others from committing such crimes.

    The same goes for anyone committing violence for the sake of violence, such as those who commit random acts of murder and assault such as seen in these knock-out game videos: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2014...village-attack and http://www.today.com/video/today/53657520#53657520. After due process, these animals should be put down like rabid dogs.
    I would tend to agree that they should not be allowed to leave prison if they are repeated violent offenders; however, I believe that it is a grave moral error to treat criminals the way that criminals treat others. We gain nothing by sinking to their level, and, frankly, there's nothing at all that suggests that the harder you prosecute criminals the better the society becomes. Where do we stop? When we become a westernized North Korea? I'll pass on that societal configuration, thanks.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

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  5. #24
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    In some way I can relate to what you say. The laws we have here doesn't help much in stopping the criminals to do whatever they want to again and again. The problem is, who will do the killing of the criminals? Who will be willing to get their hands red with blood? Sure there are many of us that are tired of crime and violence in our communities, but maybe we should think of more constructive punishments?

    Maybe we should adopt the Brazilian approach? Brazilian Prisoners Generate Electricity. I would of course not recommend this for someone who is raping little children.
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  6. #25
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are a lot of things I don't like about Islam. But one thing it does right is the severe punishment of criminals, resulting in very low crime rates in Islamic countries with Sharia Law. Steal and you get a hand cut off. Murder, and you lose your life.
    Well, we see this principle in the Old Testament - an eye for an eye. Yes, it was harsh, merciless, brutal and unforgiving which was probably fitting for the barbaric mentality of those times centuries ago. And, yes, much of the Islamic world especially Islamic states still seem to be stuck in that old dispensation of an eye for an eye verses the new dispensation Christ brought the world: mercy, forgiveness and grace. In that I do believe in capital punishment based on the Rule of Law, here's a question: Do you not believe in the mercy of the law, forgiveness, and grace?

    BTW, do you think Sharia law as it is practiced today, is really working out as a whole in a modern era for the Islamic people?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  7. #26
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Well, we see this principle in the Old Testament - an eye for an eye. Yes, it was harsh, merciless, brutal and unforgiving which was probably fitting for the barbaric mentality of those times centuries ago. And, yes, much of the Islamic world especially Islamic states still seem to be stuck in that old dispensation of an eye for an eye verses the new dispensation Christ brought the world: mercy, forgiveness and grace. In that I do believe in capital punishment based on the Rule of Law, here's a question: Do you not believe in the mercy of the law, forgiveness, and grace?
    Show me Bible verses suggesting that "the new dispensation Christ brought the world: mercy, forgiveness and grace" should apply to the rule of law as administered by earthly governments among men.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    BTW, do you think Sharia law as it is practiced today, is really working out as a whole in a modern era for the Islamic people?
    The article discusses whether Sharia is justified by Islam. I think that is irrelevant to whether Sharia effectively punishes and deters crime, which is the focus of my op.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #27
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think the number of lives saved will outweigh the few wrongly executed.
    No! Even one innocent person executed is too much. Executions and mutilations in Middle Eastern countries are one thing but most of us have moved on (with the exception of the USA) and abolished CP - it goes toward us being civilised and developed.

    Before you or someone else goes into a long post on studies about capital punishment in the United States, consider that I'm not advocating our standard criteria for the death penalty, or the normal decades long process. What I advocate is CERTAIN, SWIFT AND SEVERE punishment such as has proven effective in Saudi Arabia. Shorten the due process and endless appeals, make it clear that offenders will face severe punishment, and carry them out with plenty of publicity.
    ...and if you get the wrong person that's 'just too bad huh'??

    ---------- Post added at 07:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    130 over what period of time? And how many lives were lost during that period of time because there wasn't enough deterrence from our justice system?

    A justice system that can't protect its citizens from murderers, rapists and thieves by deterring crime isn't worth having.
    I wonder if you would feel the same if you found yourself convicted and sentenced to death for something that you didn't do. I somehow doubt it very much - then you'd be crying your eyes out and screaming for mercy.

    So evensaul. Are you going to sit there and tell us that you have never ever committed a wrong-doing in your entire life...never broken even one single law? How about if your child was dying of hunger - would you sit and watch it starve or would you steal food for it if stealing was the only way you could get food?
    Last edited by pladecalvo; January 20th, 2015 at 12:48 AM.
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  9. #28
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Show me Bible verses suggesting that "the new dispensation Christ brought the world: mercy, forgiveness and grace" should apply to the rule of law as administered by earthly governments among men.
    Christ gave us principles to live by, and he doesn't seem to force our head into the water to drink it if we're thirsty. How a people and their government choose to establish their laws is up to them or whether or not they want to consider incorporating elements of mercy, forgiveness and grace in their judicial system. There probably is a good rational reason Christ gave us the principles of mercy, forgiveness and grace—they work. That doesn’t mean capital punishment isn’t a wise choice for some crimes. One size does not fit all. But it could mean that, at least toward your OP, if you have to enforce morality with fear, death, and rape, then there’s probably something wrong with how you’re governing.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  10. #29
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    The problem is, who will do the killing of the criminals? Who will be willing to get their hands red with blood?
    I'd hazard a guess that evensaul would be more than happy to accept the job.
    Jesus is unbelievable!

  11. #30
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    ... if you have to enforce morality with fear, death, and rape, then there’s probably something wrong with how you’re governing.
    I don't think evensaul even recognises the hypocrisy in CP.He sounds like a typical American right-wing Christian.

    ---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Doing justice.
    ...and what if the person you killed was innocent - would that be 'justice'.

    I'm sure there may be some unusual circumstances where someone would get a lesser punishment, or even a pardon.
    Yeah! We could pardon them when we find out that we've killed the wrong person. That'll help I'm sure!
    Jesus is unbelievable!

  12. #31
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Christ gave us principles to live by...
    ...in our dealings with each other as individuals, and with God the Father, yes. He expressed no guidelines on how government should function.

    But let us examine His own actions. During His trial and subsequent execution, Jesus made no effort to denounce His arrest for expressions of speech or any statement against the death penalty for minor offenses. He let himself be executed, along with the petty criminals crucified with Him, making no objections, even though He could have easily removed all of them from their crosses.

    Consider also what will happen on the day of judgment, when all men will kneel before Jesus. According to the Bible, those who will have sided with the anti-Christ will not be shown mercy, forgiveness and grace. They will be executed by Jesus acting as King.

    I think the evidence is pretty clear as to where Jesus Christ stands on punishment of criminals, and it isn't on the side promoting mercy and forgiveness.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #32
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Sorry, evensaul, but your OP is merely an echo of those in the Islamic Radical world who claim IF ONLY Islam and Sharia law were imposed PERFECTLY, then there would be PEACE and a PERFECT SOCIETY, without ever showing when, in the 1400 years of Islamic history, that Sharia has produced the perfect society. If your only concern is crime, then by all means, a totalitarian and barbaric form of government is best suited to bring down that statistic, but happiness is measured in oh, so many different ways and statistics.

  14. #33
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    Sorry, evensaul, but your OP is merely an echo of those in the Islamic Radical world who claim IF ONLY Islam and Sharia law were imposed PERFECTLY, then there would be PEACE and a PERFECT SOCIETY, without ever showing when, in the 1400 years of Islamic history, that Sharia has produced the perfect society.
    The op advocated implementation of punishment that is swift, certain, and severe. I offered Sharia as an example of that. Details of the Islamic world appear irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    If your only concern is crime, then by all means, a totalitarian and barbaric form of government is best suited to bring down that statistic,
    Are you claiming that swift, certain and severe punishment can only exist with a totalitarian government, and is impossible in a democratic republic? If so, please support the claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    ...but happiness is measured in oh, so many different ways and statistics.
    This seems irrelevant to the thread.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #34
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The op advocated implementation of punishment that is swift, certain, and severe. I offered Sharia as an example of that. Details of the Islamic world appear irrelevant.
    What about when you execute the wrong person? Not answering the question says a lot about you.
    Jesus is unbelievable!

  16. #35
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The op advocated implementation of punishment that is swift, certain, and severe. I offered Sharia as an example of that. Details of the Islamic world appear irrelevant.
    Details of the Islamic world are hardly irrelevant, given that SHARIA IS OFFERED AS AN EXAMPLE. I'm not sure how you can propose Islam as the example, while divorcing yourself from the implications of that example.

    It is YOU who have offered Saudi Arabia as an example. The fact that the other countries that offer the same brand of the Sharia as punishment that you propose as somehow superior to ours are the same ones that are radical theocracies may have escaped your notice, but not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Are you claiming that swift, certain and severe punishment can only exist with a totalitarian government, and is impossible in a democratic republic? If so, please support the claim.
    It is YOU that has proposed the OP, and given a clear example of what you consider to be a more effective form of punishment (swift, certain and severe) in the form of Sharia and more specifically Saudi Arabia. I did not hear you argue that you wanted to overturn the ENTIRE rule of law of Western governments, but merely adopt a more 'effective' form of capital punishment that you imply is superior to the one we now practice. Thus, it can only be assumed that you want all of the freedoms and rights of our form of government, combined with the justice system of an Islamic country, where harsh, severe and swift punishments are meted out for many forms of crime, including amputations for thievery, stoning for adultery, death for apostasy or blasphemy, and taxation of non-believers (dhimma system) is practiced. You can't, in my view, have it both ways. If you insist on positing that our form of government can be improved by combining it with theocratic laws, then the BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU to show where such pairings have proven successful, or even where, EVER, the draconian criminal penalties you are proposing have worked in conjunction with a democratic form of government to the betterment of all concerned, both society and criminal elements. If you cannot provide a reasonable example, then you should change your OP to advocating a COMPLETE revamping of our government and criminal justice system to enable the benefits you seem to desire. It is my assertion that a criminal justice system based on Sharia laws is not necessarily compatible with an open, free and democratic government. I will argue to show why, but my disagreement with you does not mean that you are free to assert the opposite in your OP without evidence. Once again, the burden of proof lies with you.

  17. #36
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    It is my assertion that a criminal justice system based on Sharia laws is not necessarily compatible with an open, free and democratic government.
    Feel free to make your case with supporting evidence.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #37
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    I said "...but happiness is measured in oh, so many different ways and statistics.

    You said in response...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This seems irrelevant to the thread.
    I think it is very relevant. Are you proposing that CRIME STATISTICS, (in your example, the lower the better) are the ONLY metric in which to judge the success of a society, government or people? Is the goal to create a relatively crime free society where the people are SO AFRAID of the draconian punishments that may be meted out, that they refuse to even consider, under most circumstances, mental illness or passions notwithstanding, much less engaging in criminal activity? If that is your ONLY concern, then yes, Saudi Arabia, or Iran under the Mullahs, or Nigeria under Boko Haram, or Al Raqqa under ISIS may be examples of PERFECT SOCIETIES. But if you are envisioning something different, something more like the societies in democratic countries, only with the same barbaric criminal justice system as we find in the bible or quran, then you need to be more specific. For me to point out the other options for happiness in societies is HARDLY irrelevant to the thread.

    ---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Feel free to make your case with supporting evidence.
    I will. But that DOES NOT absolve you from first supporting your claims. You have claimed that you think a harsher criminal justice system (like Sharia in Saudi Arabia) is superior to deterring crime, and have implied that WE, as Western countries, should be implementing it as a way to decrease crime in our own countries.

    Am I wrong about this claim?

    If that is your claim, are you suggesting only the adoption of the criminal justice elements of Sharia, or THE WHOLE enchilada?

    If you still want to maintain democratic freedoms that you enjoy, it is incumbent on you to show how the criminal justice elements of Sharia could POSSIBLY combine with the form of government we have to produce the effects your desire.

    The fact that there are NO countries that are both governed by Islamic Sharia law, and free and open democracies that promote Western views on human rights should serve as all of the proof that is needed to show that you can't have it both ways.

    If you want to live in a country where the thief is taken from the scene of the crime, to a quick tribunal and then to the town square where his hand will be chopped off as everyone watches, then I would suggest that you don't want to live in this, or any civilized, country. There is little difference between what you are envisioning, and the place where blacks are lynched in trees, or homosexuals are hung from construction cranes, or women are buried and then stoned. How do you reconcile one with the other? Seriously?

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  20. #38
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    I will. But that DOES NOT absolve you from first supporting your claims. You have claimed that you think a harsher criminal justice system (like Sharia in Saudi Arabia) is superior to deterring crime, and have implied that WE, as Western countries, should be implementing it as a way to decrease crime in our own countries.
    That's pretty much it, yes, but there could be modifications here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    If that is your claim, are you suggesting only the adoption of the criminal justice elements of Sharia, or THE WHOLE enchilada?
    A democratic republic with a more robust criminal justice system is what I'm advocating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    If you still want to maintain democratic freedoms that you enjoy, it is incumbent on you to show how the criminal justice elements of Sharia could POSSIBLY combine with the form of government we have to produce the effects your desire.
    There hasn't been any evidence presented that they are functionally incompatible, so I can assume that they can be made to work together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanus Barbarus View Post
    The fact that there are NO countries that are both governed by Islamic Sharia law, and free and open democracies that promote Western views on human rights should serve as all of the proof that is needed to show that you can't have it both ways.
    No. That might be used to argue that my proposal hasn't been tried, or maybe even that there is not enough public support for the idea to proceed (if you presented polls of US citizens), but it does not prove that severe and swift punishment is functionally unworkable in a democratic republic.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  21. #39
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But let us examine His own actions. During His trial and subsequent execution, Jesus made no effort to denounce His arrest for expressions of speech or any statement against the death penalty for minor offenses. He let himself be executed, along with the petty criminals crucified with Him, making no objections, even though He could have easily removed all of them from their crosses.
    It was the will of the people, as Pilat let the people decide the fate of Jesus. The people chose to have him killed. What that tells me is that we pretty much get what we choose. If we choose unwisely, we receive the results of ignorance.

    When the prostitute who was about to be stoned to death approaches Jesus for protection for her crime, he didn’t look at the angry crowd with stones in their hands and say:

    “Ok, clam down now folks while I get out of the way because I understand this is your law, that prostitutes must be stoned to death. Nor am I going to get involved in this punishment for her crime even though she has come to me for help. I’ve got my own problems and I’m not here to get involved in yours. Nope, I don’t want to get involved in your moral enforcement. So I will just quietly step aside away from this woman who has committed a crime and let your old law of tradition rule the day that dictates you can stone this women to death because she deserves to die for her crime.”

    What did he do? He, through their own conscience, made them drop their stones and told the women to go and sin no more and she did change. Now that’s effective crime management if you ask me.

    I think the evidence is pretty clear as to where Jesus Christ stands on punishment of criminals,
    Are you implying that Christ does not embrace giving a man/women the opportunity for a changed heart over killing a man for an criminal heart?
    Last edited by eye4magic; January 20th, 2015 at 11:59 AM.
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  22. #40
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That's pretty much it, yes, but there could be modifications here and there.
    Be more specific. What kinds of modifications from Saudi Arabia's justice system would you make?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A democratic republic with a more robust criminal justice system is what I'm advocating.
    So a cross between America and Saudi Arabia? OK. Be specific. What is MORE ROBUST? Would you include capital punishment for thought crimes (apostasy), or victimless crimes (homosexuality)? Or just harsh crimes for things that western countries consider REAL crimes? Just trying to understand...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There hasn't been any evidence presented that they are functionally incompatible, so I can assume that they can be made to work together.
    That is a fallacy. Actually, I have showed an example (as you have), Saudi Arabia, where the punishments you advocate are not compatible with Western democracy. There are several others countries that can be included in this list as those who have a harsh justice system and are not compatible with western ideas of democracy or human rights. This does not show causation, but it rebuts your assertion that "There hasn't been any evidence presented that they are functionally incompatible", which in turn provides doubt to your statement "so I can assume that they can be made to work together". One does not follow the other. You can assume NO SUCH THING. I have given an example of one country where the two are functionally incompatible, YOU USED THE SAME COUNTRY AS YOUR EXAMPLE of one with the justice system you perceive as superior. You, however, have not given ANY example of a country where both HAVE worked in conjunction. For you to assume it is possible, without showing evidence, is just that: an assertion. Show at least one example where a Democratic Republic with a "Sharia-like" justice system was also a functional democratic republic. Your assertion, your burden of proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No. That might be used to argue that my proposal hasn't been tried, or maybe even that there is not enough public support for the idea to proceed (if you presented polls of US citizens), but it does not prove that severe and swift punishment is functionally unworkable in a democratic republic.
    So, if your proposal hasn't been tried yet in a democratic republic, and if there hasn't yet been enough public support for the idea to proceed, how is it that we are supposed to accept your assertion that it is possible as valid? Just based on your say so? Or do you have an example to share?

 

 
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