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  1. #101
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    Ok, so I'm new to the site (in this decade, anyway), but I just spotted this thread and thought I'd weight in.
    Welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    Firstly, evansaul, for the time being, I'll make the giant leap with you in assuming that Sharia law is indeed as effective as you claim it to be.
    Okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    But I would like to know, do you really believe that this presumed effectiveness justifies the erosion of such essential liberties?

    By which I mean:

    1) Fair trial: you seem to be advocating the reduction of trial lengths purely based on economic terms, rather than ensuring justice is done.
    I'm all for a fair trial. If I said anything that implied otherwise, I retract the implication. I want trials conducted in a timely manner, which I believe is achievable as the number of crimes goes down, followed by certain and severe punishment of those convicted.


    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    2) Proportionality: how can you honestly justify maiming a human being for petty theft?
    I believe in proportionality, just on a higher scale than we now have.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    I'm fairly certain such dis-proportionate (and therefore cruel and unusual) punishment is not only against the US constitution, but international law.
    I don't believe that effectiveness or rightness of something is determined by consensus, which is how the Constitution and International laws were created.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    As far as I can see, many of the punishments you are advocating would be in violation of several international treaties. Given that, despite the many disparities in the world, these treaties were signed by countries from all regions, I would hope these meet your (debatable) criteria for 'morality based on public consensus'.
    See above. Agreement by consensus isn't proven to arrive at the most effective solution. Far from it. That's why arguments based on popularity are considered to be a logical fallacy. For further explanation, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    A genuine question to you, from somebody who is absolutely stunned that anybody in the civilised world can honestly think that what goes on in the Middle East can ever be justified. And that's before we even consider the harbouring and sponsorship of terrorism that goes on in this region.
    I haven't advocated everything that happens in the Middle East, and you shouldn't automatically condemn all aspects of life there. Most cultures have both good and bad features. I am no fan of Islam or the way Muslims practice it generally, but I think some of them have punishments for secular offenses that are just about right.

    Thanks for participating. I hope to see more from you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #102
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Thanks for the welcome and reps evensaul and Dionysus.

    I'm all for a fair trial. If I said anything that implied otherwise, I retract the implication. I want trials conducted in a timely manner, which I believe is achievable as the number of crimes goes down, followed by certain and severe punishment of those convicted.
    Ok, glad we're on the same page. It was just when you suggested taking trials that result in death penalties or life imprisonment from several years to several weeks, it seemed like tax money was more important than justice, to you

    I believe in proportionality, just on a higher scale than we now have.
    Fair enough, I'm not entirely against stricter punishments myself (I'm from the UK, though), but...

    See above. Agreement by consensus isn't proven to arrive at the most effective solution. Far from it. That's why arguments based on popularity are considered to be a logical fallacy. For further explanation, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
    You did say morality was decided by consensus though... Which is more important? Morality or efficiency?

    I haven't advocated everything that happens in the Middle East, and you shouldn't automatically condemn all aspects of life there. Most cultures have both good and bad features. I am no fan of Islam or the way Muslims practice it generally, but I think some of them have punishments for secular offenses that are just about right.
    I certainly do not automatically condemn all aspects of life anywhere or in any part of the world. As my name may suggest, I'm a keen traveller and I look forward to spending a lot of time in the Middle East. Unfortunately, many of the punishments you have mentioned are among the worst practiced in this region and I don't see any place for them in a civilised society.

    I am genuinely unsure of where I stand on CP as a whole, but I fervently believe in proportionality. Given the history of severe human rights violations in the Middle East, I'm sure you'll forgive me in not looking towards them for advise on anything pertaining to the same.

  3. #103
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    You did say morality was decided by consensus though... Which is more important? Morality or efficiency?
    You seem to imply that there is a negative correlation. I don't think they are that closely linked.

    I believe it is moral to reduce the number of violent crime victims, and to alter the punishments of convicted criminals to achieve those results.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #104
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I believe it is moral to reduce the number of violent crime victims, and to alter the punishments of convicted criminals to achieve those results.
    If reducing crime was our one and only concern then I suggest that we have the police summarily execute anyone who is even accused of committing a crime no matter how minor the crime may be.

    I think that would be the most effective way to reduce the crime rate to as close to zero as possible.

  5. #105
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    You seem to imply that there is a negative correlation. I don't think they are that closely linked.
    It seems to me that shifting the focus of the justice system towards efficiency has great potential to negatively impact due process. Government efficiency targets rarely seem to have the intended effect.

    I believe it is moral to reduce the number of violent crime victims, and to alter the punishments of convicted criminals to achieve those results.
    Absolutely, but any justice system should have as much focus on ensuring innocent people aren't convicted as it does on convicting criminals. It simply wouldn't be justice otherwise.

  6. #106
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If reducing crime was our one and only concern ...
    Straw man - I've never said or implied that it is my only concern, and have stated that I believe in having a fair trial.

    ---------- Post added at 06:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    It seems to me that shifting the focus of the justice system towards efficiency has great potential to negatively impact due process. Government efficiency targets rarely seem to have the intended effect.
    I want effectiveness, which will allow more efficiency, providing more effectiveness - the opposite of what we have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadicmike View Post
    Absolutely, but any justice system should have as much focus on ensuring innocent people aren't convicted as it does on convicting criminals. It simply wouldn't be justice otherwise.
    What have I proposed that would increase the likelihood of innocent people being convicted?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #107
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...558698681.html

    Find the one who started this, and hang him or her. Then cut off one hand of the others who joined in. That's what should be done to protect future innocent old women trying to cross the street.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #108
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    We already have the death penalty in several states so we know the effects of the policy and it's been shown to not be much of a deterrent.
    Perhaps the DP is solely to deter the one that is capitally punished, and in those specific cases it seems 100% effective...

    (that does not mean I am advocating the DP here though! I am merely aiming at a different perspective than is the usual in these debates)

 

 
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