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  1. #1
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    We Need A Bloodbath

    There are a lot of things I don't like about Islam. But one thing it does right is the severe punishment of criminals, resulting in very low crime rates in Islamic countries with Sharia Law. Steal and you get a hand cut off. Murder, and you lose your life.

    When I read stories like this one, of two people abducting and sexually assaulting two little girls, I can't think of any reason why these two should go to prison and some day go free again. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/o...ction-25006390 If convicted, those two should be executed, to make damn sure they never prey on little girls again, and to deter others from committing such crimes.

    The same goes for anyone committing violence for the sake of violence, such as those who commit random acts of murder and assault such as seen in these knock-out game videos: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2014...village-attack and http://www.today.com/video/today/53657520#53657520. After due process, these animals should be put down like rabid dogs.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are a lot of things I don't like about Islam. But one thing it does right is the severe punishment of criminals, resulting in very low crime rates in Islamic countries with Sharia Law. Steal and you get a hand cut off. Murder, and you lose your life.
    I can safely guess that you support Capital Punishment for murder, but do you actually support mutilation for thievery? Because short of that issue, this thread is really just another Capital Punishment thread, which is alright. it's clearly a legitimate topic of debate.

    But then the anti-DP side can just pull out the usual arguments to counter the usual arguments for it. Such as:

    We already have the death penalty in several states so we know the effects of the policy and it's been shown to not be much of a deterrent.

    Likewise there is legitimate concern that innocent people can be, and even have been, executed. You can always release a wrongly convicted man but you can't bring him back to life (or give him back his hand if it was chopped off for thievery).

  3. #3
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...do you actually support mutilation for thievery?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...Because short of that issue, this thread is really just another Capital Punishment thread...
    We'll see.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...which is alright. it's clearly a legitimate topic of debate.
    Gee, thank you Mican. Did I miss a mod post saying all topics must be approved by you for legitimacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...But then the anti-DP side can just pull out the usual arguments to counter the usual arguments for it. Such as:

    We already have the death penalty in several states so we know the effects of the policy and it's been shown to not be much of a deterrent.
    Really? Are you suggesting that offenders who are executed sometimes commit another offense? I'd like to see you try to support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Likewise there is legitimate concern that innocent people can be, and even have been, executed. You can always release a wrongly convicted man but you can't bring him back to life (or give him back his hand if it was chopped off for thievery).
    I think the number of lives saved will outweigh the few wrongly executed. But if you're concerned about the issue of wrongly convicted, provide some numbers that are compelling.

    EDIT:

    Before you or someone else goes into a long post on studies about capital punishment in the United States, consider that I'm not advocating our standard criteria for the death penalty, or the normal decades long process. What I advocate is CERTAIN, SWIFT AND SEVERE punishment such as has proven effective in Saudi Arabia. Shorten the due process and endless appeals, make it clear that offenders will face severe punishment, and carry them out with plenty of publicity. Any studies about the historical effectiveness of capital punishment in the United States are pretty much irrelevant.
    Last edited by evensaul; August 17th, 2014 at 02:17 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes.
    Then you support a punishment that is worse than the crime (I think any sane person would rather be ripped off than dismembered) , which would clearly qualify as cruel and unusual punishment and therefore be banned under the US Constitution (but apparently is fine under Sharia Law).


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Gee, thank you Mican. Did I miss a mod post saying all topics must be approved by you for legitimacy?
    I was saying that I find the topic worth debating and therefore will post on this thread but thanks for the attitude. How about we debate civilly?

    You know, no personal attacks or insults and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Really? Are you suggesting that offenders who are executed sometimes commit another offense? I'd like to see you try to support that.
    The deterrent argument goes that because one might be executed for a crime, they have a disincentive to commit it and therefore fewer murders take place than would if that kind of punishment wasn't an option. And that argument apparently does not hold up.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think the number of lives saved will outweigh the few wrongly executed.
    And can you support that assertion? Again, I'm advocating life in prison as the alternative to CP so we would be comparing how many people are killed by those who are locked up for the rest of their lives versus how many are wrongly executed. I doubt you can provide the numbers to show that one outweighs the other.

    And besides that, my objection to wrongful execution is not primarily based on the numbers of lives taken but that it makes the state, and by extension all of us, party to the killing of innocent people which pretty much compromises it as a "justice" system. So IMO even one wrongful execution is reason enough to legitimately oppose the death penalty, especially since no strong case for it saving lives has been made.

  5. #5
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I was saying that I find the topic worth debating and therefore will post on this thread....
    Thank you for blessing this thread with your presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    but thanks for the attitude. How about we debate civilly?

    You know, no personal attacks or insults and so on.
    Well, you and other mods have been allowing Sig and JJ to insult me to no end in the Michael Brown thread. So, suck it up Mican. What you allow to go around will come around.

    See my above post and the Edit at the bottom. Consider that and respond, and address the justice I'm proposing, not what will likely be your appeal to tradition and supposed constitutional rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The deterrent argument goes that because one might be executed for a crime, they have a disincentive to commit it and therefore fewer murders take place than would if that kind of punishment wasn't an option. And that argument apparently does not hold up..

    My deterrent argument is that (1) they won't commit another crime, and (2) certain, swift and severe punishment will deter crime as it does in Saudi Arabia.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #6
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Thank you for blessing this thread with your presence.
    And now I've taken back my blessing. This thread is no longer worth it.

  7. Likes Sigfried liked this post
  8. #7
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am not debating on behalf of the moderators but as a fellow debater.
    Then from one debater to another, stop acting so superior about what you consider to be a legitimate thread worthy of your attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So basically you are proposing a justice system so monstrous that it scares the crap out of everyone and makes them behave better.
    So effective that it scares the crap out of criminals and they choose to stop committing crimes, or hopefully never start.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    For those who like to think of their government as civilized, that's not a good option.
    Unsupported opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As I said before things like dismemberment for thievery violates the US Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.
    Appeal to tradition. The Constitution may be changed, and has been when enough people found that necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Likewise with swifter executions, there will certainly be an increase in the instances of wrongful executions. There are 130 documented cases of people released from death row over incorrect conviction and it stands to reason that most of them would have been executed if there was little delay between conviction and execution.
    130 over what period of time? And how many lives were lost during that period of time because there wasn't enough deterrence from our justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you may think that out government killing innocent people is a price worth paying but again, those who want a government that does not kill innocent people needlessly would not agree.
    A justice system that can't protect its citizens from murderers, rapists and thieves by deterring crime isn't worth having.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #8
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are a lot of things I don't like about Islam. But one thing it does right is the severe punishment of criminals, resulting in very low crime rates in Islamic countries with Sharia Law. Steal and you get a hand cut off. Murder, and you lose your life.
    The problem with chopping off limbs in a modern society is multifold:

    1. There is no compensation when the guy turns out to be innocent.
    2. The way it is handled in Islamic countries, isn't very rigorous; often it all rests on the word of a tribal leader.
    3. I'm not convinced it reduces crime but it's a permanent punishment that ruins the life of the thief.
    4. What if someone steals food for their child? Or if a child steals? Should those people have their hands chopped off too?
    5. What about stealing intellectual property, such as downloading music or a movie? How many hands are you going to chop off for that?
    6. It is actually not constitutional - eighth amendment.


    When I read stories like this one, of two people abducting and sexually assaulting two little girls, I can't think of any reason why these two should go to prison and some day go free again. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/o...ction-25006390 If convicted, those two should be executed, to make damn sure they never prey on little girls again, and to deter others from committing such crimes.
    What about the case of the Duke lacrosse rape, where it turned out the woman was lying? Sometimes, they might not admit it until later.

    The same goes for anyone committing violence for the sake of violence, such as those who commit random acts of murder and assault such as seen in these knock-out game videos: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2014...village-attack and http://www.today.com/video/today/53657520#53657520. After due process, these animals should be put down like rabid dogs.
    Well, due process usually means a decade or two - is that what you're suggesting? Spending millions of dollars on more crimes? America, is on the road towards repealing the idea of a death penalty.


    I understand the emotional side of things but it is better to deal with crime by focusing more about prevention and rehabilitation rather punishment. Your approach may scratch the vengeance itch but if the person turns out to be innocent then there is little you can do.

  10. #9
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    1. There is no compensation when the guy turns out to be innocent..
    There is no compensation to the millions of violent crime victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    2. The way it is handled in Islamic countries, isn't very rigorous; often it all rests on the word of a tribal leader..
    And we could fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    3. I'm not convinced it reduces crime but it's a permanent punishment that ruins the life of the thief..
    That's the idea, JJ, to deter others from ruining their own lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    4. What if someone steals food for their child? Or if a child steals? Should those people have their hands chopped off too?.
    Parent loses the hand. Child gets whipped severely.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    5. What about stealing intellectual property, such as downloading music or a movie? How many hands are you going to chop off for that?.
    Fingers might be a good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    6. It is actually not constitutional - eighth amendment..
    Why is the Constitution an authority? The Constitution can and has been changed when enough people found that necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    What about the case of the Duke lacrosse rape, where it turned out the woman was lying? Sometimes, they might not admit it until later.
    Executing her would be a good deterrent to others making false charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Well, due process usually means a decade or two - is that what you're suggesting? Spending millions of dollars on more crimes? America, is on the road towards repealing the idea of a death penalty.
    We need to shorten appeals process to months or even weeks. Effective deterrence with will clear the dockets, and clearing the dockets will allow more effective deterrence.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I understand the emotional side of things but it is better to deal with crime by focusing more about prevention and rehabilitation rather punishment. Your approach may scratch the vengeance itch but if the person turns out to be innocent then there is little you can do.
    Certain, swift and severe punishment is all about prevention, and with that prevention there will be a lot less need for rehabilitation.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #10
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Then from one debater to another, stop acting so superior about what you consider to be a legitimate thread worthy of your attention.
    Any superiority act on my part is a product of your imagination. It is perfectly valid to attack or question on OP on the criteria on whether it generates a valid and/or interesting debate.

    I gave my assessment and in no way inferred that my assessment was in anyway special or superior to anyone else'.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So effective that it scares the crap out of criminals and they choose to stop committing crimes, or hopefully never start.
    Not just criminals - everyone. I prefer the justice system that delivers justice as I understand the concept of justice.

    Delivering a punishment that's worse than the crime is not justice. The harshest punishment that conceivably qualifies as justice would be one that gives the criminal what he gave (which would justify Capital Punishment but not dismemberment for thievery).

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Unsupported opinion.
    So you think lopping off hands for thievery is civilized? If so, we may have to agree to disagree on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Appeal to tradition. The Constitution may be changed, and has been when enough people found that necessary.
    Right. But assuming one agrees with the current principles of our justice system, they are against cruel and unusual punishment.

    And you are entitled to your opinion. If you think cruel and unusual punishment is worth it, fine. You don't have to accept constitutional principles.

    But for those who do accept them, your proposal is not acceptable.

    It really seems that we are just approaching an agree to disagree scenario. I'm for the constitution as it is and you would prefer some aspects of Sharia law.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    130 over what period of time? And how many lives were lost during that period of time because there wasn't enough deterrence from our justice system?
    Define "enough deterrence."

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A justice system that can't protect its citizens from murderers, rapists and thieves by deterring crime isn't worth having.
    But the US does protect its citizens. Criminals are locked up which removes them from the streets and likewise the justice system is a deterrent to crime.

    Or by "can't protect its citizens" do you mean that some crime occurs despite the justice system. By that logic, the only justice system worth having is the one that results in absolutely no crime at all and by that standard, Saudi Arabia's system likewise fails for crime does exist. In fact, when it comes to low homicide rate, Arabia is #17 so there are sixteen countries that have a lower rate, some of which have no death penalty. So Saudi Arabias relatively harsh system of justice is not necessary for a low crime rate and the notion that what works there would work here is hardly supported.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure is the state attempted to institute the "lopping off hands" policy it would meet so much popular resistance that it could not be implemented. It would pretty much take a totalitarian government that does not represent the wants of the citizens to have the system you desire to be put in place.
    Last edited by mican333; August 18th, 2014 at 09:54 AM.

  12. #11
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There is no compensation to the millions of violent crime victims.
    And there still wouldn't be if you chopped the thief's hands off!

    And we could fix that.
    I think it takes a certain mindset to authorize chopping someone's hands off - I don't think the people that sort of decision making takes are those I want in power thanks.


    That's the idea, JJ, to deter others from ruining their own lives.
    And what do people do when they know their lives are ruined? Do they behave nicely towards the society that did this to them?

    Parent loses the hand. Child gets whipped severely.
    Hmm.


    Fingers might be a good start.
    Hmm. Again.


    Why is the Constitution an authority? The Constitution can and has been changed when enough people found that necessary.
    Yep. Good luck with that.


    Executing her would be a good deterrent to others making false charges.
    Execution for perjury? Really?


    We need to shorten appeals process to months or even weeks. Effective deterrence with will clear the dockets, and clearing the dockets will allow more effective deterrence.
    I doubt that it's really a deterrence. Education would be a better one.


    Certain, swift and severe punishment is all about prevention, and with that prevention there will be a lot less need for rehabilitation.
    Then there should be no more thievery in Islamic countries. Yet ...

  13. #12
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I think it takes a certain mindset to authorize chopping someone's hands off - I don't think the people that sort of decision making takes are those I want in power thanks.
    Just like I don't want people in power who worry about criminals being mistreated, and let the public be preyed upon because there is little deterrence.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Execution for perjury? Really?
    For perjury that gets men executed. You bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I doubt that it's really a deterrence. Education would be a better one.
    What an asinine comment. The people who end up committing violent crimes are the ones who didn't want to be educated. They skip school, don't do homework, drop out, and have no income. Show me some violent criminals that worked hard in school and graduated. I'll bet you can't find more than a handful, because people who work hard in school and get good grades work hard in whatever job they manage to get, and they get promoted. Even a high school dropout that works hard in fast food gets promoted to shift leader and then assistant manager. It happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Then there should be no more thievery in Islamic countries. Yet ...
    Go check the crime rates for Saudi Arabia. Compare them to the United States. Deterrence in the form of certain, swift and severe punishment works.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Evensaul, do you actually have any logical arguments for expanding capital punishment or is this mostly an emotional appeal? You mention deterrence. Do you actually have any data that supports your claim that capital punishment is an effective deterrent?

    Typically, I see that countries with some of the harshest penalties for crimes are rarely the most stable and civilized. You mention Islam in the OP. I think trying to emulate Muslim countries is one of the last things we should try to be doing.
    ~Zealous

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    Evensaul, do you actually have any logical arguments for expanding capital punishment or is this mostly an emotional appeal? You mention deterrence. Do you actually have any data that supports your claim that capital punishment is an effective deterrent?
    I've made plenty of logical arguments, and no emotional appeal.

    Look at crime data for Saudi Arabia compared to the United States: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_...=United+States
    Pay particular attention to the line that says "Problem violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery" which are the most severely punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    You mention Islam in the OP. I think trying to emulate Muslim countries is one of the last things we should try to be doing.
    Why? Are you a religious bigot?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Just like I don't want people in power who worry about criminals being mistreated, and let the public be preyed upon because there is little deterrence.
    There is a deterrence - it's called prison.

    For perjury that gets men executed. You bet.
    Eye for an eye - so what is to stop a murdering from continue to kill since he is going to be dying anyway? Should we also institute torture while we're at it?

    What an asinine comment. The people who end up committing violent crimes are the ones who didn't want to be educated. They skip school, don't do homework, drop out, and have no income. Show me some violent criminals that worked hard in school and graduated. I'll bet you can't find more than a handful, because people who work hard in school and get good grades work hard in whatever job they manage to get, and they get promoted. Even a high school dropout that works hard in fast food gets promoted to shift leader and then assistant manager. It happens all the time.
    And what about white collar murders or murders of passion? If a wife kills her abusive husband, then what?


    Go check the crime rates for Saudi Arabia. Compare them to the United States. Deterrence in the form of certain, swift and severe punishment works.
    That's kinda your work to provide but also make sure you include the corresponding loss of freedom for women that their Sharia law also entails.

  17. #16
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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    There is a deterrence - it's called prison.
    A bullet is a lot cheaper and more effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Eye for an eye - so what is to stop a murdering from continue to kill since he is going to be dying anyway? Should we also institute torture while we're at it?
    He'll be dead. That will stop him. And probably many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    And what about white collar murders or murders of passion?
    Execute them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    If a wife kills her abusive husband, then what?
    Then she should leave him instead of murdering him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    That's kinda your work to provide but also make sure you include the corresponding loss of freedom for women that their Sharia law also entails.
    See my previous post to ZD.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A bullet is a lot cheaper and more effective.
    At what?

    He'll be dead. That will stop him. And probably many others.
    I'm talking about the motivation of a murderer before he is caught. What's to stop him from killing more people since the punishment for killing one person is the same as many.

    Execute them.

    Then she should leave him instead of murdering him.
    So no justified murder or any other mitigating circumstance in your new world?

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    At what?
    Doing justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I'm talking about the motivation of a murderer before he is caught. What's to stop him from killing more people since the punishment for killing one person is the same as many.
    What's to stop him from killing now?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    So no justified murder or any other mitigating circumstance in your new world?
    I'm sure there may be some unusual circumstances where someone would get a lesser punishment, or even a pardon. The details of what and how aren't important to me.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Doing justice.
    So stealing candy gets as much punishment as stealing jewelry or the medicines of an elderly person? How's that justice?

    What's to stop him from killing now?
    The first person: jail; subsequent murders: death penalty or live in prison.

    I'm sure there may be some unusual circumstances where someone would get a lesser punishment, or even a pardon. The details of what and how aren't important to me.
    But those are the details that has caused us to reason that we do not chop off hands or kill people out of hand. Perhaps learning a bit more about history might help you prevent making the same mistakes, no matter how emotionally justified you feel.

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    Re: We Need A Bloodbath

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Look at crime data for Saudi Arabia compared to the United States: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_...=United+States
    Pay particular attention to the line that says "Problem violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery" which are the most severely punished.
    This is hardly sufficient evidence. Two data points doesn't even begin to imply correlation, nevermind causation.

    http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_...untry2=Germany

    I took a random country that does not have capital punishment like Germany and compared it to Saudi Arabia. Note that Germany has a lower incident rate for many crimes (including assault).

    You can also take a look at Afghanistan. Afghanistan has a very high incident rate of assault and violent crimes, despite having capital punishment in place for many crimes.

    http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_...y2=Afghanistan

    You need more data. You could at least attempt to show strong correlation.
    ~Zealous

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