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  1. #1
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    Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    The NON-Muslim Argument.
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.
    The hadith says “consummate” clearly indicating sex.

    Muslim response:
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
    Narrated 'Ursa:
    The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311).

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3310

    The hadiths show with context, that Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (wrote the contract), and he entered into the contract when she was 9 by living together. Not that she had sex at 9. So consummation is referring to living together. Not sex.

    ---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

    Non-Muslim Response:
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

    An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha : AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in.

    {In this hadith, the word “udkhilath’ was translated by Dr Mohsin Khan to mean “consummated his marriage’.}


    The root of the verb “udkhilath” is “dakhala” which means to “enter”. This is the common Arabic meaning though there are other definitions, none of which can be made to fit with the context of the hadith above.

    An English definition commonly found on the internet is this from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273 : “to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman”.

    The phrase dakhala is translated as "consummated the marriage" in the hadith. The specific transliteration here is udkhilath alaihi, showing that the object of the sentence isn't marriage (a specific word not used in this part of the sentence), but rather Aisha. He entered Aisha, not "entered the marriage" in the Arabic.

    This proves from the Arabic that consummate means sex.

    ---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

    Muslim Response:

    Dakhala does mean to enter, yet what is being entered is dependent upon the context and the context clearly demonstrates that it refers entering into the contract by living together. Not sex. Furthermore, the definition you provided says it also means cohabit. This is what you provided:

    ..from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273 : “to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman”. Also the following link below shows the definition is to also cohabit.

    www perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0022%3Aroot%3Ddx l%3Aentry%3Ddaxala

    ---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

    Muslim Response continued...

    Furthermore, the hadith itself shows that it refers to entering into the contract and not her in Arabic. Let’s analyze:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

    An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha : AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in.




    Notice the following in the translation and transliteration, side by side.

    1. Married her when she was 6..............Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen,
    2. Entered her when she was 9..............udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in

    The sentences are identical. The only difference from the second sentence than the first is the words “entered” and “9”. So to translate it to mean entered her when she was 9, all that is necessary is to remove “married” and “6”, and replace it with “entered” and “9”. Yet clearly, we see another word is introduced. That word is “alaihi.”

    Clearly showing that the sentence does not mean enter her because another word is introduced. If it was to mean he entered her, it would not be necessary to add an additional word. Proving from the Arabic that it means he entered into what’s upon him. Not entered her. So since it is a marriage contract that is upon him, then it means he entered into the marriage contract. Not her

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

    Muslim response continued...


    Another interesting point is when we look at the very next hadith, with the same translation.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
    Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

    We can clearly see that the same translation is used. Yet the Arabic words for consummate is NOT udkhilat. It is “wabanaa”, which means “built or constructed”. So we see that consummated his marriage in this hadith is translated from the Arabic “built with her”. Referring to the building of the marriage between the Prophet and Aisha.

    The fact of the matter is that the expression “consummates the marriage” is stated many times in all the six collections of Sunni hadiths, and the Arabic word “dakhala” is not used each time. Other Arabic expressions are used as well.

    So the argument that consummate means sex because it is translated from an Arabic word that means “to enter” in one hadith is invalid, since the very next hadith uses the same translation from a different Arabic word ‘wabanaa”, referring to something that is built. Furthermore, there are other hadiths that use a different expression Arabic expression for the same translation.. And when we analyze the many narrations that refer to living together, then it shows from the context that the hadith refers to entering the marriage contract or the marriage being built upon by living together when she was 9. Not sex.

    ---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

    Non-Muslim Response:

    If consummation does not means sex, then how do you explain the following hadith that translates it not as living together, but clearly states sexual intercourse:

    1.SUNAN ABU DAWUD
    Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)
    http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/76

    This is not only a Muslim website but the site itself says the hadith is Sahih. That it is authentic.

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    MUSLIM RESPONSE:

    The collection of Abu Dawud also has the same narrations, also saying that they cohabit, not sex.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

    So we can see that of all the authentic narrations, the majority refer to living together or consummate, AND ONLY ONE translates it as sex. This demonstrates once again that the context supports that it refers to living together and not sex. Secondly, although the Abu Dawud is authentic, it is still a weaker narration to that of Bukhari and Muslim, and neither of these sources say sex. So since the stronger sources do not refer to sex but cohabitation, then it logically shows that it refers to cohabitation and not sex.

    ---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

    Muslim response continued...

    Finally, the reason for the translation of “sexual intercourse” is because the Arabic in this particular hadith means “entered me”, whereas the other narrations mean “enter into what’s upon him”, or some other variation. So the translator saw fit that it should be translated as sex according to the text, and did not refer to the context. Yet as the context shows and the hadiths from the same source show, it does not refer to sex but to cohabitation. However, even the English expression of “entered me” does not mean that someone is literally entering inside a person. Notice the following sentence:

    “I wanted to enter my brother’s race competition but I was not there to sign up. So my brother entered me.”

    As one can see, the words “enter me” can take on another meaning other than literally going inside someone, depending on context. Despite the words “entered me” the context shows that it refers to entering someone into a race. Similarly, the expression “entered me” in the Abu Dawud hadith that is translated as sexual intercourse should be translated as the Prophet entered her into the marriage contract.


    We also know that Muhammad married Aisha, not of his own desires, but in accordance to a dream he received. So he was not following sexual desire, but following the Guidance of Allah:

    Narrated `Aisha:
    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Bukhari Vol. 7 Book 62 Num. 15).

    In conclusion, we can see from the context, the Arabic itself, and even in English itself, that the consummation of marriage at 9 does not mean to have sex at 9. It means that they entered into the marriage contract at 9 by living together and Muhammad did so not out of his own sexual desires, but in accordance to the Guidance of Allah. Thus refuting the charge of Pedophilia.

    And Allah knows Best.
    Last edited by Fatihah; September 14th, 2014 at 01:57 PM.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    What is so wrong, in your moral framework, that pedophilia is bad?

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah
    It means that they entered into the marriage contract at 9 by living together and Muhammad did so not out of his own sexual desires, but in accordance to the Guidance of Allah.
    If Islam allows and encourages marriage of mature girls, regardless of their age, whether it be 9, 12, or 16 years of age, it would seem to me that a peaceful Islam that is surviving in the 21st century would also require that Muslim young girls be not only educated but objectively educated before they make the choice to marry at a young age. Is this part of Islam? Do you agree or disagree with this reasoning? Are very young Muslim girls between the ages of 6-16 years in Muslim countries well educated, objectively before they are given the choice to marry a man twice their age?

    And Allah knows Best.
    How do Muslims discern the difference between Allah's will and their own carnal mind? Do Muslims believe that everything that happens is according to the will of God, and nothing happens unless it is God's will?
    Last edited by eye4magic; September 14th, 2014 at 05:30 PM.
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If Islam allows and encourages marriage of mature girls, regardless of their age, whether it be 9, 12, or 16 years of age, it would seem to me that a peaceful Islam that is surviving in the 21st century would also require that Muslim young girls be not only educated but objectively educated before they make the choice to marry at a young age. Is this part of Islam? Do you agree or disagree with this reasoning? Are very young Muslim girls between the ages of 6-16 years in Muslim countries well educated, objectively before they are given the choice to marry a man twice their age?


    How do Muslims discern the difference between Allah's will and their own carnal mind? Do Muslims believe that everything that happens is according to the will of God, and nothing happens unless it is God's will?
    Response: I do not know about girls in existing Muslim countries, but in Islam, there is nothing against education of women. So a girl or woman seeking education should be allowed. This is evident and one of the reasons why Muhammad married Aisha. For Allah knew how knowledgeable and important she would become in regards to intelligence, which can easily be testified by the fact that without her, Muslims would not know their religion. For much of what we know about Islam is based on the authority of not men, but a woman named Aisha.

    And the difference between Allah's will and a Muslim's will is the same difference as any other two beings will. Will is choosing to act out one's own desire over someone else desire.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    The hadiths show with context, that Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (wrote the contract), and he entered into the contract when she was 9 by living together. Not that she had sex at 9. So consummation is referring to living together. Not sex.
    It isn't clear to me exactly why you think this topic is so critical to your religion but so be it.
    Lets establish a few things up front.
    1. Most people who are married to one another also live in the same home. There are a few rare exceptions where there are multiple wives and homes but Allah only had one wife at a time (so far as I can tell) and he lived with those wives. The fact she lived with him does not in any way mean they did or did not have sex. Many people who live together also have sex, especially when they are married. Very few get married and have sex and do not live together in the same house. So logically, the fact that some Hadiths report that they lived with one another in no way means they did not have sex as well.

    2. Generally speaking in most cultures including most Islamic ones if you don't have sex you aren't married. It was and in some places is common practice to a-null a marriage if there has been no intercourse. Consummation of a marriage is generally understood as the act of sex on the wedding night, the final act of the wedding ceremony. In many Islamic cultures it is traditional to display bloodied bed-sheets to verify both the consummation of the marriage and the fact the bride was a virgin on her wedding night. Even not generally speaking the cultural purpose of marriage is the creation and raising of children which you may realize requires sex.

    3. Normal people have sex with their spouses. In Islam that is just as true as in any other culture or religion. There are in fact many prohibitions on men and women who are not married living together because they could indeed have sex which would be illegal if they are not married. So the fact she went to live with him means they could well be having a sexual relationship and that such a relationship would be acceptable by cultural standards. Were they not married such an arrangement would be illegal.

    In Summary, we have every expectation that a man and wife would have sex together and since they were married at 9 and she went to live with him there is every reason to expect they had sex as would be normal and traditional. There is no Islamic law or tradition that would stand in the way of that or make it illegal.

    ..from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273 : “to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman”. Also the following link below shows the definition is to also cohabit.
    And since the subject is marriage it seems pretty reasonable it means to consummate the marriage. It could also mean to enter the home, it could well mean both since married people who enter one another also enter the home to do so. Scholars more learned than you certainly understand the meaning and context here, you for whatever reason simply refuse to accept it.

    I imagine the idea of the prophet humping a 9 year old girl bothers you, would seem unholy to you. But in truth there is nothing in Islamic law that would prohibit it so by your own faith you should accept that as normal and acceptable and godly. Certainly as a humanist I find it fairly evil but I don't believe in gods, only men and base my decisions on my mind and heart, not on stories in old scrolls.

    1. Married her when she was 6..............Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen,
    2. Entered her when she was 9..............udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in

    The sentences are identical. The only difference from the second sentence than the first is the words “entered” and “9”. So to translate it to mean entered her when she was 9, all that is necessary is to remove “married” and “6”, and replace it with “entered” and “9”. Yet clearly, we see another word is introduced. That word is “alaihi.”
    As I pointed out, Marriage involves sex pretty much always. The word used here udkhilath is generally used to describe sex in marriage. Adding in the name of the prophet makes it pretty clear the both of them are involved in this activity which makes a lot of sense describing any given marriage.

    Clearly showing that the sentence does not mean enter her because another word is introduced. If it was to mean he entered her, it would not be necessary to add an additional word.
    Many sentences do not require additional words. In this case the word is the person doing the entering while she remains the one being entered. It doesn't say anything about a house there or a home. But again, if it did, that still would not mean they did not have sex which would be entirely traditional and normal.

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

    We can clearly see that the same translation is used. Yet the Arabic words for consummate is NOT udkhilat. It is “wabanaa”, which means “built or constructed”. So we see that consummated his marriage in this hadith is translated from the Arabic “built with her”. Referring to the building of the marriage between the Prophet and Aisha.
    Udkhilat is used frequently in the Hadiths and Koran to mean sex, though not exclusively. The context here is a man and woman getting married. Sex would be absolutely normal and expected in this context so presuming that meaning makes the most sense.

    So the argument that consummate means sex because it is translated from an Arabic word that means “to enter” in one hadith is invalid, since the very next hadith uses the same translation from a different Arabic word ‘wabanaa”, referring to something that is built. Furthermore, there are other hadiths that use a different expression Arabic expression for the same translation.. And when we analyze the many narrations that refer to living together, then it shows from the context that the hadith refers to entering the marriage contract or the marriage being built upon by living together when she was 9. Not sex.
    I'm not sure if you noticed, but euphemisms for sex are commonplace in just about every society. Porked, boned, had, to know someone, ridden, entered, ravished, being intimate, rocked her world, and on and on and on. They all have other meanings for the most part as well. People like to try and either use especially vulgar or overly polite language to avoid being explicit and clinical.

    Again, you can play linguistic bingo but the honest truth is married people generally have sex and there is no good reason to expect that the prophet and his new wife didn't do so.

    The collection of Abu Dawud also has the same narrations, also saying that they cohabit, not sex.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter
    Again, there is nothing exclusive about cohabitation that would preclude sex. Generally when married men and women love together they are having sex, and it they are not allowed to have sex they would be prohibited from living with one another.

    Finally, the reason for the translation of “sexual intercourse” is because the Arabic in this particular hadith means “entered me”, whereas the other narrations mean “enter into what’s upon him”, or some other variation. So the translator saw fit that it should be translated as sex according to the text, and did not refer to the context. Yet as the context shows and the hadiths from the same source show, it does not refer to sex but to cohabitation. However, even the English expression of “entered me” does not mean that someone is literally entering inside a person. Notice the following sentence:

    “I wanted to enter my brother’s race competition but I was not there to sign up. So my brother entered me.”
    Again, common sense is pretty helpful. When one gets married, you pretty much always have sex. When you register for a race, you generally don't.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It isn't clear to me exactly why you think this topic is so critical to your religion but so be it.
    Lets establish a few things up front.
    1. Most people who are married to one another also live in the same home. There are a few rare exceptions where there are multiple wives and homes but Allah only had one wife at a time (so far as I can tell) and he lived with those wives. The fact she lived with him does not in any way mean they did or did not have sex. Many people who live together also have sex, especially when they are married. Very few get married and have sex and do not live together in the same house. So logically, the fact that some Hadiths report that they lived with one another in no way means they did not have sex as well.

    2. Generally speaking in most cultures including most Islamic ones if you don't have sex you aren't married. It was and in some places is common practice to a-null a marriage if there has been no intercourse. Consummation of a marriage is generally understood as the act of sex on the wedding night, the final act of the wedding ceremony. In many Islamic cultures it is traditional to display bloodied bed-sheets to verify both the consummation of the marriage and the fact the bride was a virgin on her wedding night. Even not generally speaking the cultural purpose of marriage is the creation and raising of children which you may realize requires sex.

    3. Normal people have sex with their spouses. In Islam that is just as true as in any other culture or religion. There are in fact many prohibitions on men and women who are not married living together because they could indeed have sex which would be illegal if they are not married. So the fact she went to live with him means they could well be having a sexual relationship and that such a relationship would be acceptable by cultural standards. Were they not married such an arrangement would be illegal.

    In Summary, we have every expectation that a man and wife would have sex together and since they were married at 9 and she went to live with him there is every reason to expect they had sex as would be normal and traditional. There is no Islamic law or tradition that would stand in the way of that or make it illegal.



    And since the subject is marriage it seems pretty reasonable it means to consummate the marriage. It could also mean to enter the home, it could well mean both since married people who enter one another also enter the home to do so. Scholars more learned than you certainly understand the meaning and context here, you for whatever reason simply refuse to accept it.

    I imagine the idea of the prophet humping a 9 year old girl bothers you, would seem unholy to you. But in truth there is nothing in Islamic law that would prohibit it so by your own faith you should accept that as normal and acceptable and godly. Certainly as a humanist I find it fairly evil but I don't believe in gods, only men and base my decisions on my mind and heart, not on stories in old scrolls.



    As I pointed out, Marriage involves sex pretty much always. The word used here udkhilath is generally used to describe sex in marriage. Adding in the name of the prophet makes it pretty clear the both of them are involved in this activity which makes a lot of sense describing any given marriage.



    Many sentences do not require additional words. In this case the word is the person doing the entering while she remains the one being entered. It doesn't say anything about a house there or a home. But again, if it did, that still would not mean they did not have sex which would be entirely traditional and normal.

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------



    Udkhilat is used frequently in the Hadiths and Koran to mean sex, though not exclusively. The context here is a man and woman getting married. Sex would be absolutely normal and expected in this context so presuming that meaning makes the most sense.



    I'm not sure if you noticed, but euphemisms for sex are commonplace in just about every society. Porked, boned, had, to know someone, ridden, entered, ravished, being intimate, rocked her world, and on and on and on. They all have other meanings for the most part as well. People like to try and either use especially vulgar or overly polite language to avoid being explicit and clinical.

    Again, you can play linguistic bingo but the honest truth is married people generally have sex and there is no good reason to expect that the prophet and his new wife didn't do so.



    Again, there is nothing exclusive about cohabitation that would preclude sex. Generally when married men and women love together they are having sex, and it they are not allowed to have sex they would be prohibited from living with one another.



    Again, common sense is pretty helpful. When one gets married, you pretty much always have sex. When you register for a race, you generally don't.
    Response: Rather, it isn't clear why you assumed this topic is important in my religion.

    Secondly, the point of presenting the hadiths is to show that they do not mean that he had sex when she was 9, but that they lived together. So your response that just because they lived together does not mean they did not have sex is irrelevant to the fact that the hadiths only say that they lived together. Not sex. Furthermore, you have no expectation that they had sex when she was 9 since no source says they did, and just because a man and wife generally have sex does not mean it occurred when she was 9. To the contrary, it is also general that married couples don't have sex often as well, that a girl who never experienced sexual chemistry will likely not have sex as soon as she lives with someone, and some married couples purposely with hold having sex to develop a deeper connection. So your point is invalid.

    Furthermore:

    1. No Arabic dictionary on the planet says udkhilath is generally used for sex, so that lie fails.
    2. Udkhilat is not used frequently in the Qur'an and hadiths to mean sex, not can you show otherwise. So that lie fails as well.

    Thus your point is invalid.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: Rather, it isn't clear why you assumed this topic is important in my religion.
    Because you keep bringing it up as a topic of debate. When someone repeatedly addresses the same argument in multiple threads it tends to mean they think it is important. If it is not important to you, why is it your primary topic of debate?

    Secondly, the point of presenting the hadiths is to show that they do not mean that he had sex when she was 9, but that they lived together.
    Muslim men and women who live together and are not blood family are presumed to be having a sexual relationship. That is why it is generally prohibited unless they are married. You seem to utterly gloss over this fact.

    In your family is it permissible for a man and woman to live together if they are not married?
    In your family is it expected that if a man and woman marry they will have sex on their wedding night or shortly thereafter?

    So your response that just because they lived together does not mean they did not have sex is irrelevant to the fact that the hadiths only say that they lived together.
    It actually doesn't matter what they say in this instance. The question most westerners are interested in is whether or not Mohammad the prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl or not. Many translations clearly indicate they did. Apologists sometimes dance around that as you do. But even if you are right and they only say to live with, it is still culturally presumed that a lawfully married husband and wife will have sex, and they will generally do it the night they are married. It is both normal and traditional, neither of which you can honestly dispute.

    So if it said nothing but that they were married at 9, we would still presume they had sex because that is one of the things you do in marriage, one of the more important parts of marriage in fact.

    Furthermore, you have no expectation that they had sex when she was 9 since no source says they did, and just because a man and wife generally have sex does not mean it occurred when she was 9.
    I don't need any documentation to tell me my parents had sex when they got married, or that my good friends had sex when they got married, or that your or I had sex when we were married. Its the normal thing to do. To not do so is very unusual. The fact she was 9 doesn't mitigate that. Normally people don't get married until they can have consensual sex. Islamic law only states the woman needs to be in puberty and it is well established that is possible by age 9. Perhaps you are single and are not familiar with the whole having sex when you get married thing but I assure you it's far and away the thing to do.

    To the contrary, it is also general that married couples don't have sex often as well, that a girl who never experienced sexual chemistry will likely not have sex as soon as she lives with someone, and some married couples purposely with hold having sex to develop a deeper connection. So your point is invalid.
    That is absurd. While certainly some couples have less sex over time or are forced into a marriage where there is little sexual chemistry, sex none the less happens at least on the wedding night. I have never heard of a married couple withholding sex to form a deeper connection. Having sex is one of the most effective ways of forming deep connections after all.

    I'm presuming you are old enough that you have had sex but I don't know.

    1. No Arabic dictionary on the planet says udkhilath is generally used for sex, so that lie fails.
    This is an Arabic dictionary and it is indeed on the planet...
    http://www.amazon.com/Arabic-English.../dp/0879500034
    On page 273 it defines the term as
    "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman."

    So my "lie" is in fact not a lie at all.

    2. Udkhilat is not used frequently in the Qur'an and hadiths to mean sex, not can you show otherwise. So that lie fails as well.
    I am sorry, "Frequently" would be an exaggeration but it is used in this way. In the Qur'an 4:23 rather explicitly states you can't marry a woman's daughter if you had sex with her mother. If you didn't have sex with her then you can.


    You don't have any reason to believe they didn't have sex other than the thought makes you unhappy in some way.

    Fact: They were married when she was 9.
    Fact: Most people have sex when they marry.
    Fact: At least some islamic scholars have translated the Hadiths to say they consummated their marriage.
    Fact: The word used can mean sex and is used that way at least sometimes in the Quran.
    Fact: Provided she was menstruating at that age their sex would be legal.
    Fact: It would have been illegal for him to marry her were she not menstruating.
    Fact: It is illegal for unrelated men and women of age to cohabitate without marrying.

    While none of these guarantee they had sex, they all suggest that is highly likely.
    The only think you have on your side of the argument is that some passages could be read to say cohabitate instead of consummate yet that in no way precludes them having sex.

    Like many things in religious thinking it appears to be little better than wishful thinking on your part.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Because you keep bringing it up as a topic of debate. When someone repeatedly addresses the same argument in multiple threads it tends to mean they think it is important. If it is not important to you, why is it your primary topic of debate?



    Muslim men and women who live together and are not blood family are presumed to be having a sexual relationship. That is why it is generally prohibited unless they are married. You seem to utterly gloss over this fact.

    In your family is it permissible for a man and woman to live together if they are not married?
    In your family is it expected that if a man and woman marry they will have sex on their wedding night or shortly thereafter?



    It actually doesn't matter what they say in this instance. The question most westerners are interested in is whether or not Mohammad the prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl or not. Many translations clearly indicate they did. Apologists sometimes dance around that as you do. But even if you are right and they only say to live with, it is still culturally presumed that a lawfully married husband and wife will have sex, and they will generally do it the night they are married. It is both normal and traditional, neither of which you can honestly dispute.

    So if it said nothing but that they were married at 9, we would still presume they had sex because that is one of the things you do in marriage, one of the more important parts of marriage in fact.



    I don't need any documentation to tell me my parents had sex when they got married, or that my good friends had sex when they got married, or that your or I had sex when we were married. Its the normal thing to do. To not do so is very unusual. The fact she was 9 doesn't mitigate that. Normally people don't get married until they can have consensual sex. Islamic law only states the woman needs to be in puberty and it is well established that is possible by age 9. Perhaps you are single and are not familiar with the whole having sex when you get married thing but I assure you it's far and away the thing to do.



    That is absurd. While certainly some couples have less sex over time or are forced into a marriage where there is little sexual chemistry, sex none the less happens at least on the wedding night. I have never heard of a married couple withholding sex to form a deeper connection. Having sex is one of the most effective ways of forming deep connections after all.

    I'm presuming you are old enough that you have had sex but I don't know.



    This is an Arabic dictionary and it is indeed on the planet...
    http://www.amazon.com/Arabic-English.../dp/0879500034
    On page 273 it defines the term as
    "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman."

    So my "lie" is in fact not a lie at all.



    I am sorry, "Frequently" would be an exaggeration but it is used in this way. In the Qur'an 4:23 rather explicitly states you can't marry a woman's daughter if you had sex with her mother. If you didn't have sex with her then you can.


    You don't have any reason to believe they didn't have sex other than the thought makes you unhappy in some way.

    Fact: They were married when she was 9.
    Fact: Most people have sex when they marry.
    Fact: At least some islamic scholars have translated the Hadiths to say they consummated their marriage.
    Fact: The word used can mean sex and is used that way at least sometimes in the Quran.
    Fact: Provided she was menstruating at that age their sex would be legal.
    Fact: It would have been illegal for him to marry her were she not menstruating.
    Fact: It is illegal for unrelated men and women of age to cohabitate without marrying.

    While none of these guarantee they had sex, they all suggest that is highly likely.
    The only think you have on your side of the argument is that some passages could be read to say cohabitate instead of consummate yet that in no way precludes them having sex.

    Like many things in religious thinking it appears to be little better than wishful thinking on your part.
    Response: I never brought up the topic. It is brought up by others, and I respond. Secondly, your argument continues to make my point that the hadiths do not say she had sex with her at 9, since you cannot quote such from the text. Instead,

    1. You lie and say that udkhilath is generally used for sex, only to be debunked by your own definition that shows that one of the usages is sex, not that it is GENERALLY used for sex. Furthermore, it is used dozens of times to reference to going to Hell or Paradise in the Qur'an, thus debunking your claim that it is generally used for sex again.

    So all you are left with is the weak argument that it is presumed that a married couple has sex, therefore it is highly likely that she did. And I agree, they did have sex. Not at 9. So thanks for making my point. And since law exist that sex with a 9 year old is not allowed shows from your own position that sex with a 9 year old is not generally accepted as well, further proving from your own logic that they did not have sex when she was 9. Thanks.
    Last edited by Fatihah; September 16th, 2014 at 06:17 AM.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: I never brought up the topic. It is brought up by others, and I respond. Secondly, your argument continues to make my point that the Hadiths do not say she had sex with her at 9, since you cannot quote such from the text. Instead.
    It is your name at the top of this thread Fatihah, not anyone else. From the moment you arrived this has been about your only topic. Clearly you must think it is important. We have a number of other debate topics but you have chosen this one and apparently do so in other debate settings as well.

    1. You lie and say that udkhilath is generally used for sex, only to be debunked by your own definition that shows that one of the usages is sex, not that it is GENERALLY used for sex. Furthermore, it is used dozens of times to reference to going to Hell or Paradise in the Qur'an, thus debunking your claim that it is generally used for sex again.
    When it mentions relations between a man and a woman it is generally used for sex because sex is when you "enter women". Bang is often used for sounds and it is also often used for sex in american lingo. You can tell the difference based on the context.

    You are engaging in a classic ruse, to use the weight I ascribe to something to distract from the substance of it. Generally may have been a poor choice of words, but the fact remains that udkhilath is used to mean sex in the context of men and women and their relations and that is what the sentence in question is about, the relations between a man and his wife.

    So all you are left with is the weak argument that it is presumed that a married couple has sex, therefore it is highly likely that she did. And I agree, they did have sex. Not at 9.
    Why not at 9? Show me one piece of evidence that says they did not have sex or that they waited for sex until some later age. Just one. All you have is a hope that is true when in fact nearly all married couples have sex when they are legally married. That is what is presumed except in very unusual circumstances. your case is hollow and empty. All you have is the claim that a given word which can mean sex in this context and is used for sex in similar contexts might not mean sex in this occasion. Mind you even if it didn't then it still in no way precludes them having sex which would be entirely expected on their wedding night.

    You have no response to this argument but to call me a liar. It exposes the extreme weakness of your position. A strong argument would have a counter point for every point I could make. Instead you ignore most of it and retreat to what is essentially a threadbare case. you may feel your position is strong, but I promise that no one reading this who is not by their belief inclined to think all things good about your prophet because they have invested their whole lives in it is finding your argument compelling.

    If you want to defend your faith effectively you will need to do better.

    So thanks for making my point. And since law exist that sex with a 9 year old is not allowed shows from your own position that sex with a 9 year old is not generally accepted as well, further proving from your own logic that they did not have sex when she was 9. Thanks.
    No. Because I pointed out and you failed to refute that Islamic law only requires the woman to be in puberty and that puberty can and does happen at age 9 for some girls. So by the law of your religion which Mohammad in theory flowed, he could legally marry and have sex with a 9 year old girl. Now in my society, that would be considered abhorrent. We do not allow sex between and older man and a 9 year old girl. The girl must be at least 18 years of age, well beyond the age of puberty.

    Not every nation or culture has the same laws and morals. We argue about them to persuade one another that one is superior to another.

    Your logic is the logic that is flawed here. If you contend that it is not permissible to have sex with a 9 year old than Mohammad could not have married one. Marriage is to allow sex between man and woman and give it proper framework. You cannot marry someone you cannot have sex with and so if he married her he is permitted to have sex with her. I consider such an arrangement immoral and the law of Islam in this regard barbaric.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: I do not know about girls in existing Muslim countries, but in Islam, there is nothing against education of women. So a girl or woman seeking education should be allowed.
    Malala Yousafzai also thinks Muslim girls/women should be allowed to be educated. She paid a price for exercising her right. Unfortunately, at this juncture for millions of Muslim girls/women in Muslim countries, what Islam is, what Islam may be to you and American Muslims is not the reality that many young Muslim girls live in Muslim states.

    So all you are left with is the weak argument that it is presumed that a married couple has sex, therefore it is highly likely that she did. And I agree, they did have sex. Not at 9.
    What does it matter if Muhammad did have sex with Aisha at nine years? Why does that matter to your argument? Have you not stated that Islam allows a mature girl, regardless of age to have sex with her husband that hopefully she was educated enough to be able to choose marraige? If her parents and Muhammad considered Aisha was mature, does not Islam sanction that a mature nine year old girl can have sex?
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It is your name at the top of this thread Fatihah, not anyone else. From the moment you arrived this has been about your only topic. Clearly you must think it is important. We have a number of other debate topics but you have chosen this one and apparently do so in other debate settings as well.



    When it mentions relations between a man and a woman it is generally used for sex because sex is when you "enter women". Bang is often used for sounds and it is also often used for sex in american lingo. You can tell the difference based on the context.

    You are engaging in a classic ruse, to use the weight I ascribe to something to distract from the substance of it. Generally may have been a poor choice of words, but the fact remains that udkhilath is used to mean sex in the context of men and women and their relations and that is what the sentence in question is about, the relations between a man and his wife.



    Why not at 9? Show me one piece of evidence that says they did not have sex or that they waited for sex until some later age. Just one. All you have is a hope that is true when in fact nearly all married couples have sex when they are legally married. That is what is presumed except in very unusual circumstances. your case is hollow and empty. All you have is the claim that a given word which can mean sex in this context and is used for sex in similar contexts might not mean sex in this occasion. Mind you even if it didn't then it still in no way precludes them having sex which would be entirely expected on their wedding night.

    You have no response to this argument but to call me a liar. It exposes the extreme weakness of your position. A strong argument would have a counter point for every point I could make. Instead you ignore most of it and retreat to what is essentially a threadbare case. you may feel your position is strong, but I promise that no one reading this who is not by their belief inclined to think all things good about your prophet because they have invested their whole lives in it is finding your argument compelling.

    If you want to defend your faith effectively you will need to do better.



    No. Because I pointed out and you failed to refute that Islamic law only requires the woman to be in puberty and that puberty can and does happen at age 9 for some girls. So by the law of your religion which Mohammad in theory flowed, he could legally marry and have sex with a 9 year old girl. Now in my society, that would be considered abhorrent. We do not allow sex between and older man and a 9 year old girl. The girl must be at least 18 years of age, well beyond the age of puberty.

    Not every nation or culture has the same laws and morals. We argue about them to persuade one another that one is superior to another.

    Your logic is the logic that is flawed here. If you contend that it is not permissible to have sex with a 9 year old than Mohammad could not have married one. Marriage is to allow sex between man and woman and give it proper framework. You cannot marry someone you cannot have sex with and so if he married her he is permitted to have sex with her. I consider such an arrangement immoral and the law of Islam in this regard barbaric.
    Response: This is the only thread I created, thus debunking your claim that I keep making the topic. It is also in response to another thread, the only thread that I ever participated in, in which the topic was created by someone else. So the topic was presented by someone else FIRST, and I responded. Debunked again.

    Secondly, you don't even speak Arabic, nor does any dictionary say the word is generally used for sex when between men and women. So how exactly do you know the general meaning? Exactly. You don't, thus debunking yourself again. Even more amusing is that off all the times it is used in both the Qur'an and hadiths between men and women, you can only provide that it refers to sex twice. Debunking yourself again that it is not the general usage since it only does so twice, out of the dozens of times it is used.


    Last, no source says that she did or did not have sex at 9. Yet it is you who is saying that sex at 9 is highly likely, yet have no logical evidence for it. And your own logic shows that they did not have sex at 9 since your whole position is based on what generally occurs, yet have no evidence that a 9 year old generally have sex. So your own logic is proof that they did not have sex. Debunked as usual.

    ---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Malala Yousafzai also thinks Muslim girls/women should be allowed to be educated. She paid a price for exercising her right. Unfortunately, at this juncture for millions of Muslim girls/women in Muslim countries, what Islam is, what Islam may be to you and American Muslims is not the reality that many young Muslim girls live in Muslim states.


    What does it matter if Muhammad did have sex with Aisha at nine years? Why does that matter to your argument? Have you not stated that Islam allows a mature girl, regardless of age to have sex with her husband that hopefully she was educated enough to be able to choose marraige? If her parents and Muhammad considered Aisha was mature, does not Islam sanction that a mature nine year old girl can have sex?
    Response: Muhammad having sex with Aisha at 9 does not bother me at all, because consensual sex is allowed in marriage with one who reaches maturity and puberty. So if he did have sex with her, that means she met the requirement, so there is no issue at all. Yet the evidence shows that this did not occur so it matters because the truth matters.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    You cannot marry someone you cannot have sex with and so if he married her he is permitted to have sex with her. I consider such an arrangement immoral and the law of Islam in this regard barbaric.
    Actually, Sig this Islamic marriage official in Saudi Arabia in the video explains the concept that Fatihah is talking about. Islam allows Muslims to obtain (purchase) a marriage contract for a Muslim girl, regardless of age -- even starting at one year of age -- (somewhat like a contract to purchase a piece of property). The age of the Muslim girl is irrelevant when the contract is purchased. Which of course, brings up the question of how can a 4-year old give consent? Anyway, she continues to live with her parents even though she has a marriage contract with someone who purchased it until she reaches the "age of maturity" (puberty) -- which can be nine years of age. Once the "age of maturity" is reached, however young and regardless of age, the marriage contract kicks in and the young girl, who has been married on paper only, begins living with the man who paid for her marriage contract that her father may have set up when she was four years old. One area of controversy among Muslim states and communities at this stage seems to be in the area of who decides what is the "age of maturity."

    Yes, this does seem somewhat 6th century, especially to westerners, not to mention many other issues with the practice.

    During Muhammad's time, Ashea was probably considered to be mature at nine years of age. Thus Islam (it's beginnings) through today, apparently has no problem with Muhammad having sex with his nine-year old bride because she had reached maturity at a young age. Now this certainly begs the question, do must girls reach puberty at age nine? And even if a girl does reach puberty at nine years of age, that doesn't mean she is emotionally, mentally, physically or psychologically mature.




    Pakistan, for an example of the controversy, seems to support child marriages and thinks outlawing it is un-Islamic:

    Child Marriage Should Be Legal: Pakistani Legal Advisory Body
    The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), a constitutional recommendatory body that provides legal advice to the Pakistani government and parliament, ruled on Tuesday that laws which ban underage children from getting married are “un-Islamic.” The CII also determined that according to Islam there is no minimum age for marriage – although it deems that Rukshati (the consummation of marriage) should only occur when both husband and wife have reached puberty. Pakistani laws presently mandate that the minimum age for marriage is 18 years for a male and 16 for a female. CII, as an advisory body, cannot enact laws on its own.

    Dawn, an English-language Pakistani daily, reported that the CII chairman, Maulana Mohammad Khan Sheerani, also blasted laws forbidding polygamy. “Sharia [Islamic law] allows men to have more than one wife, and we demanded that the government should amend the law,” he told reporters.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/child-marriag...y-body-1560767


    ---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: Muhammad having sex with Aisha at 9 does not bother me at all, because consensual sex is allowed in marriage with one who reaches maturity and puberty. So if he did have sex with her, that means she met the requirement, so there is no issue at all. Yet the evidence shows that this did not occur so it matters because the truth matters.
    What probably matters today is that for many Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad is a role model. In other words, it seems many Muslims believe it's important to emulate his life (live as he lived; practice his way of life) and they want to emulate it. As the video clip of the Saudi Islamic marriage official points out, paraphrasing; "if Muhammad had sex with his nine-year old mature bride, Ashea, centuries ago, then Islam today condones it because Muhammad is our role model."
    Last edited by eye4magic; September 16th, 2014 at 02:02 PM.
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    This is the only thread I created, thus debunking your claim that I keep making the topic.
    Hardly. What would debunk it is if you started a thread on another topic or participated in other debates in an appreciable way. This is the topic you are continuing to argue and as you say the only one you have initiated. You will find I for instance engage in a pretty wide rage of topics spanning religion, politics and philosophy. Perhaps you do as well but we wouldn't know. And from your interaction in the other thread its clear you debate this topic on other sites as well.

    If you really want to debunk my critique, all you need to do is say what you think. Tell us why you have chosen to address this topic and what other topics you find interesting. Your direct statement of your own motivations will always trump my suppositions but if you don't speak for yourself all I have is the circumstantial evidence.

    Secondly, you don't even speak Arabic, nor does any dictionary say the word is generally used for sex when between men and women.
    I don't speak Arabic but the author of the dictionary I cited does. It clearly says that the word can mean sex. And Islamic scholars who speak the language have indicated it does mean that in that passage. Others disagree as you claim.

    Last, no source says that she did or did not have sex at 9. Yet it is you who is saying that sex at 9 is highly likely, yet have no logical evidence for it.
    I do have logical evidence:
    Sex on the marriage night is the norm so in absence of any special information it would be presumed they had sex.
    That is called inductive reasoning in case you didn't know. It seeks the most likely supposition in the face of imperfect information.

    And your own logic shows that they did not have sex at 9 since your whole position is based on what generally occurs, yet have no evidence that a 9 year old generally have sex.
    you make a dissimilar comparison. I am not examining what most 9 year old's do. I am examining what most new brides do irregardless of their age. It is more relevant that she is a bride than that she is 9 in terms of if they did or did not have sex.

    Response: Muhammad having sex with Aisha at 9 does not bother me at all, because consensual sex is allowed in marriage with one who reaches maturity and puberty. So if he did have sex with her, that means she met the requirement, so there is no issue at all. Yet the evidence shows that this did not occur so it matters because the truth matters.
    There is no evidence that it did not occur. Absolutely the only argument you have on the matter is that you think a word that could mean sex or could mean cohabitation means cohabitation in this case. But cohabitation can also include sex when one is married. Nothing in your argument in any way precludes them from having had sex at that age.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Hardly. What would debunk it is if you started a thread on another topic or participated in other debates in an appreciable way. This is the topic you are continuing to argue and as you say the only one you have initiated. You will find I for instance engage in a pretty wide rage of topics spanning religion, politics and philosophy. Perhaps you do as well but we wouldn't know. And from your interaction in the other thread its clear you debate this topic on other sites as well.

    If you really want to debunk my critique, all you need to do is say what you think. Tell us why you have chosen to address this topic and what other topics you find interesting. Your direct statement of your own motivations will always trump my suppositions but if you don't speak for yourself all I have is the circumstantial evidence.



    I don't speak Arabic but the author of the dictionary I cited does. It clearly says that the word can mean sex. And Islamic scholars who speak the language have indicated it does mean that in that passage. Others disagree as you claim.



    I do have logical evidence:
    Sex on the marriage night is the norm so in absence of any special information it would be presumed they had sex.
    That is called inductive reasoning in case you didn't know. It seeks the most likely supposition in the face of imperfect information.


    you make a dissimilar comparison. I am not examining what most 9 year old's do. I am examining what most new brides do irregardless of their age. It is more relevant that she is a bride than that she is 9 in terms of if they did or did not have sex.



    There is no evidence that it did not occur. Absolutely the only argument you have on the matter is that you think a word that could mean sex or could mean cohabitation means cohabitation in this case. But cohabitation can also include sex when one is married. Nothing in your argument in any way precludes them from having had sex at that age.
    Response: No. What debunks it is the fact that you said I keep starting the topic, when a response to a topic does not mean starting a topic in any language. Debunked.

    And whether Islamic scholars say it means sex does not make it mean sex, since a scholar has no authority of what words mean. And if something now becomes true because an Islamic scholar said it, then according to your logic, your argument is false since Islamic scholars also disagree with you as well.

    Then you say sex on marriage night is the norm, yet again have no evidence for such, debunking yourself again. Provide one source that says Muslims have sex on their wedding night normally? You have none. Debunked as usual.

    Finally, the proof that it did not occur is clear, as you yourself cannot provide any logical evidence that a 9 year old would have sex, thus making my point that it did not occur.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by FATIHAH
    Finally, the proof that it did not occur is clear, as you yourself cannot provide any logical evidence that a 9 year old would have sex, thus making my point that it did not occur.
    Actually no.
    Sig has offered many cultural indications of what we should expect, and you have offered only the fact that there is no logically necessary event.

    So he has supported a positive and you have supported a neutral (IE we don't know). You have not supported that it did not occur.
    Sig's point that even if your reading of the text is correct, it still doesn't falsify the likely hood.

    It is one thing to say "we don't know" and another to say "It didn't occur".
    I don't see any reason to think that it didn't occur, and only the presence of a logically possible that it didn't(from you).
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Actually no.
    Sig has offered many cultural indications of what we should expect, and you have offered only the fact that there is no logically necessary event.

    So he has supported a positive and you have supported a neutral (IE we don't know). You have not supported that it did not occur.
    Sig's point that even if your reading of the text is correct, it still doesn't falsify the likely hood.

    It is one thing to say "we don't know" and another to say "It didn't occur".
    I don't see any reason to think that it didn't occur, and only the presence of a logically possible that it didn't(from you).

    Response: Actually, Sig refuted his own argument by his own standards since he cannot show any cultural Indication from anywhere at any time that a 9 year old has sex. Neither can you. So you both have refuted yourselves, since you have absolutely no logical evidence that it likely occured and the evidence shows that it likely did not occur.

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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: No. What debunks it is the fact that you said I keep starting the topic, when a response to a topic does not mean starting a topic in any language. Debunked.
    Once again you dodge the real question. I am observing that you are passionate about and eager to argue this topic. You are trying to divert that observation about the technicalities of starting topics or responding to them. Prior to your arrival there was little interest in this particular debate and since your arrival it has received a lot of attention. That clearly points to you as the person most interested in this topic. So again I am curious as to why exactly you find this so compelling and your attempts to deflect that core question won't dissuade me from asking.

    And whether Islamic scholars say it means sex does not make it mean sex, since a scholar has no authority of what words mean. And if something now becomes true because an Islamic scholar said it, then according to your logic, your argument is false since Islamic scholars also disagree with you as well.
    You clearly see things as very black and white. Reality tends to be a lot more fungible. Scholars are looked to as experts in their field but they are not arbiters of absolute truth. I am providing various arguments supporting a given case and you are providing arguments against it. The definition of the word can mean sex and it can mean something other than sex. Providing testimony from language experts and experts on the text is one way of supporting a position. Unless we can speak to the original author we don't know with 100% certainty what they intended. Scholarship simply provides us with thoughtful opinions on the matter we can consider.

    Then you say sex on marriage night is the norm, yet again have no evidence for such, debunking yourself again. Provide one source that says Muslims have sex on their wedding night normally? You have none. Debunked as usual.
    You don't seem to understand what Debunked means so lets take a moment for that.
    "To show that something (such as a belief or theory) is not true : to show the falseness of (a story, idea, statement, etc.)"

    To debunk something you need to show evidence it is false. This is not the same as arguing with someone that their support is insufficient to prove a positive case. To Debunk my claim that sex is normal on a marriage night, you would have to offer evidence that it is not normal and that most people don't have sex on their marriage night.

    There are some claims that tend to go rather matter of fact because they are widely understood and agreed on. People having sex when they get married is something I figured few would issue a challenge to. But you did so I will try to provide that.

    We'll start with the wedding night.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4110035.html
    This actually favors your argument a bit. In a modern survey only 48% of couples had sex on their wedding night. That is still a lot but it is less than half. Of those who didn't the most common reason given was that the groom was too drunk for sex. Also popular was the bride was too drunk. Of those who didn't do it only 6% reported they simply didn't want to. Most were reporting some problem with being too tired or to busy with wedding celebrations. Being drunk would not be a problem for the prophet, nor partying all night or flying off to the honeymoon.

    But a lot of that is about logistics... studies looking at sex in the first year of marriage (where the girl would be 9 - 10 years old in this case) show sex is common and declines afterwards.
    http://www.reinventingrelationships....rriagesex.html
    "Typical married couples have sex about 66 times per year and after age 30, the frequency of sex drops about 20% each decade. (Parker-Pope, 2010)."

    How about muslim culture specifically?
    http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...arriage/169864
    This is a Muslim site asking when a married couple should have intercourse. Now the article points out its up to the couple so long as they are legally married but it also mentions what is traditional.
    "It is the practice in most Muslim countries for the couple to sign the marriage contract days, weeks, or even months before the walimah (wedding feast). During this period, known as nikah (which also means the marriage contract itself) the man and woman usually live apart, but they are legally married and may be alone together. In some countries it is the custom to consummate the marriage before the wedding feast; elsewhere, the consummation takes place after the feast. "

    This is a tourism site for Morocco and talks about old traditional marriage practices
    http://www.morocco.com/culture/weddings-customs/
    "The bride would be lifted up on a circular cushion or table and the groom on the shoulders of his friends. The two would then be carried to the bridal chamber where they would be expected to consummate their marriage. The bridal party would then examine their sheets for signs of blood to confirm the bride's virginity"

    Mind you this is not part of Islamic law, but I am simply offering it because it illustrates broad cultural expectations that consummation happens shortly after marriage in the middle east.

    Finally, the proof that it did not occur is clear, as you yourself cannot provide any logical evidence that a 9 year old would have sex, thus making my point that it did not occur.
    Sorry pal but it doesn't work like that. A thin is not true only because it has not been proven false. I could easily say I've proven they have had sex because you have failed to prove they didn't. That isn't how it works. What you do is offer supporting evidence for your contention and I offer supporting evidence for mine and we can compare the strength of that evidence and argument.

    You have done almost nothing in this debate but offer a little bit of linguistic evidence for the meaning of a given word only in so much as to say it could be used in two ways, and then provided nothing else. I have, in my research, read a number of arguments on this topic and most of them are much better than yours. They can offer evidence from other writings that give a different age for Aisha at her wedding as well as showing conflicting accounts withing the Hadith where her wedding age is given as 9 casting that source into doubt as a record of her age. Do some research and you could greatly improve your case. As it stands you are anything but convincing.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  21. Likes MindTrap028 liked this post
  22. #18
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatihah View Post
    Response: Actually, Sig refuted his own argument by his own standards since he cannot show any cultural Indication from anywhere at any time that a 9 year old has sex. Neither can you.
    Here you go -- unfortunate as this is, a culture of nine-year-olds having sex:




    The ancient world was not free of sexual perversions from Babylon to China, sex with young children was practiced, not just Islam, who sanctions sex in marriage at the ‘age of maturity’ which can be nine years of age or younger.

    As was also common in other early civilizations, extreme maternal symbiosis caused the Chinese to believe that women were so powerful that they depleted men of their strength by taking their semen during intercourse. The Chinese thought women ejaculated a life force (yin) during sex, which a man could absorb and gain strength from, if he could withhold ejaculation himself. Manuals were written describing methods whereby the man could hold back his semen, terminating intercourse – called “the battle” – by inhaling the breath and sucking the saliva of the woman – who is called “the enemy.(138) During adolescence, youths were instructed to have intercourse with young girls who have “undeveloped breasts,” but to practice “moderation” by withholding their semen.'(139) Rulers had more life force because they absorbed more of it from their many wives and concubines. Whether this led them to believe that men could absorb the life force from their children through intercourse is not immediately apparent, although this might be indicated by the widespread practice of buying (under the rubric of “adoption”) children in infancy under the popular mui tsai system – children who were then used by their “adoptive” parents both as domestic slaves and as sexual objects.(140) Boys, too, were often adopted for sexual use, and had their feet bound like girls-bound feet being considered sexually arousing.(141)
    http://wdbox2003.typepad.com/yishilaoshanyang/culture/
    Last edited by eye4magic; September 17th, 2014 at 01:26 PM.
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  23. #19
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by FATIHAH
    Response: Actually, Sig refuted his own argument by his own standards since he cannot show any cultural Indication from anywhere at any time that a 9 year old has sex. Neither can you. So you both have refuted yourselves, since you have absolutely no logical evidence that it likely occured and the evidence shows that it likely did not occur.
    Two things,
    1) The point is that one doesn't need concrete evidence that a married person has had sex, it is the default safe and reasonable assumption per world culture everywhere and specifically that culture.
    2) There is no evidence that shows that it did not occure, that was a major point of sigs that you have not been able to address.
    Namely, that even if it is recorded only as a note that they co-habitated as man and wife, that in no way indicates the nature of their sex life. That only supports a neutral postion at best (IE I don't know).



    Until you address with actual logical evidence to think this relation was different than any typical marriage, we have no reason to think otherwise.
    Why do you think it was an exception? Because it didn't specify that they were having sex?
    Why would you need to be told a Husband and wife is having sex?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  24. #20
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    Re: Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Once again you dodge the real question. I am observing that you are passionate about and eager to argue this topic. You are trying to divert that observation about the technicalities of starting topics or responding to them. Prior to your arrival there was little interest in this particular debate and since your arrival it has received a lot of attention. That clearly points to you as the person most interested in this topic. So again I am curious as to why exactly you find this so compelling and your attempts to deflect that core question won't dissuade me from asking.



    You clearly see things as very black and white. Reality tends to be a lot more fungible. Scholars are looked to as experts in their field but they are not arbiters of absolute truth. I am providing various arguments supporting a given case and you are providing arguments against it. The definition of the word can mean sex and it can mean something other than sex. Providing testimony from language experts and experts on the text is one way of supporting a position. Unless we can speak to the original author we don't know with 100% certainty what they intended. Scholarship simply provides us with thoughtful opinions on the matter we can consider.



    You don't seem to understand what Debunked means so lets take a moment for that.
    "To show that something (such as a belief or theory) is not true : to show the falseness of (a story, idea, statement, etc.)"

    To debunk something you need to show evidence it is false. This is not the same as arguing with someone that their support is insufficient to prove a positive case. To Debunk my claim that sex is normal on a marriage night, you would have to offer evidence that it is not normal and that most people don't have sex on their marriage night.

    There are some claims that tend to go rather matter of fact because they are widely understood and agreed on. People having sex when they get married is something I figured few would issue a challenge to. But you did so I will try to provide that.

    We'll start with the wedding night.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4110035.html
    This actually favors your argument a bit. In a modern survey only 48% of couples had sex on their wedding night. That is still a lot but it is less than half. Of those who didn't the most common reason given was that the groom was too drunk for sex. Also popular was the bride was too drunk. Of those who didn't do it only 6% reported they simply didn't want to. Most were reporting some problem with being too tired or to busy with wedding celebrations. Being drunk would not be a problem for the prophet, nor partying all night or flying off to the honeymoon.

    But a lot of that is about logistics... studies looking at sex in the first year of marriage (where the girl would be 9 - 10 years old in this case) show sex is common and declines afterwards.
    http://www.reinventingrelationships....rriagesex.html
    "Typical married couples have sex about 66 times per year and after age 30, the frequency of sex drops about 20% each decade. (Parker-Pope, 2010)."

    How about muslim culture specifically?
    http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...arriage/169864
    This is a Muslim site asking when a married couple should have intercourse. Now the article points out its up to the couple so long as they are legally married but it also mentions what is traditional.
    "It is the practice in most Muslim countries for the couple to sign the marriage contract days, weeks, or even months before the walimah (wedding feast). During this period, known as nikah (which also means the marriage contract itself) the man and woman usually live apart, but they are legally married and may be alone together. In some countries it is the custom to consummate the marriage before the wedding feast; elsewhere, the consummation takes place after the feast. "

    This is a tourism site for Morocco and talks about old traditional marriage practices
    http://www.morocco.com/culture/weddings-customs/
    "The bride would be lifted up on a circular cushion or table and the groom on the shoulders of his friends. The two would then be carried to the bridal chamber where they would be expected to consummate their marriage. The bridal party would then examine their sheets for signs of blood to confirm the bride's virginity"

    Mind you this is not part of Islamic law, but I am simply offering it because it illustrates broad cultural expectations that consummation happens shortly after marriage in the middle east.



    Sorry pal but it doesn't work like that. A thin is not true only because it has not been proven false. I could easily say I've proven they have had sex because you have failed to prove they didn't. That isn't how it works. What you do is offer supporting evidence for your contention and I offer supporting evidence for mine and we can compare the strength of that evidence and argument.

    You have done almost nothing in this debate but offer a little bit of linguistic evidence for the meaning of a given word only in so much as to say it could be used in two ways, and then provided nothing else. I have, in my research, read a number of arguments on this topic and most of them are much better than yours. They can offer evidence from other writings that give a different age for Aisha at her wedding as well as showing conflicting accounts withing the Hadith where her wedding age is given as 9 casting that source into doubt as a record of her age. Do some research and you could greatly improve your case. As it stands you are anything but convincing.
    Response: Your original post was nothing about observing me being passionate about the topic, it was you clearly stating that I keep bringing up this topic. That claim is false. Period. For I never continued to bring it up.

    Secondly, the meaning of words and its usage is not based on a scholar. For no scholar invented the language. It is based on the authority that even scholars use, which is a dictionary and academic grammar. Not one dictionary says that dakhala generally means sex, and not one says that it usually refers to sex when used between men and women, and every single hadith using the word dakhala and reference to sex proves that dakhala in the hadith does not mean sex from the context. So your claim is clearly false. Furthermore, the claim that you are debunked is in reference to the fact that your logic does not support your claim, which means the logic is false, and as demonstrated it does not support it. And since your logic has been shown to be false, then it is debunked according to your own definition of debunked provided.

    As for the rest, you attempt to justify your claim that sex occurs between couples on their marriage night by providing statistics, yet you falsely state : "(where the girl would be 9 - 10 years old in this case)"
    Yet not a single link says that the study includes 9-10 year olds. Debunked again.

    Finally, no one said something is true because it was not shown to be false. Rather, if something is true, it has evidence to support it. Whereas falsehood does not. So when you make a claim and we see no evidence supports it, then your claim is an exact replica of something false, thus making my argument. Debunked as usual. Try again.

    ---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Here you go -- unfortunate as this is, a culture of nine-year-olds having sex:




    The ancient world was not free of sexual perversions from Babylon to China, sex with young children was practiced, not just Islam, who sanctions sex in marriage at the ‘age of maturity’ which can be nine years of age or younger.

    As was also common in other early civilizations, extreme maternal symbiosis caused the Chinese to believe that women were so powerful that they depleted men of their strength by taking their semen during intercourse. The Chinese thought women ejaculated a life force (yin) during sex, which a man could absorb and gain strength from, if he could withhold ejaculation himself. Manuals were written describing methods whereby the man could hold back his semen, terminating intercourse – called “the battle” – by inhaling the breath and sucking the saliva of the woman – who is called “the enemy.(138) During adolescence, youths were instructed to have intercourse with young girls who have “undeveloped breasts,” but to practice “moderation” by withholding their semen.'(139) Rulers had more life force because they absorbed more of it from their many wives and concubines. Whether this led them to believe that men could absorb the life force from their children through intercourse is not immediately apparent, although this might be indicated by the widespread practice of buying (under the rubric of “adoption”) children in infancy under the popular mui tsai system – children who were then used by their “adoptive” parents both as domestic slaves and as sexual objects.(140) Boys, too, were often adopted for sexual use, and had their feet bound like girls-bound feet being considered sexually arousing.(141)
    http://wdbox2003.typepad.com/yishilaoshanyang/culture/
    Response: None of which shows that the Prophet had sex with a 9 year old. So your post is irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Two things,
    1) The point is that one doesn't need concrete evidence that a married person has had sex, it is the default safe and reasonable assumption per world culture everywhere and specifically that culture.
    2) There is no evidence that shows that it did not occure, that was a major point of sigs that you have not been able to address.
    Namely, that even if it is recorded only as a note that they co-habitated as man and wife, that in no way indicates the nature of their sex life. That only supports a neutral postion at best (IE I don't know).



    Until you address with actual logical evidence to think this relation was different than any typical marriage, we have no reason to think otherwise.
    Why do you think it was an exception? Because it didn't specify that they were having sex?
    Why would you need to be told a Husband and wife is having sex?
    Response:

    1. Your claim that no concrete evidence is needed to support that a married person has sex is irrelevant in answering whether a 9 year old did. So your claim is pointless.

    2. His point was never that there is no evidence that it did not occur, but that it is highly likely that it did occur. Yet neither you nor him has evidence, thus refuting yourselves as usual.

    So until you have evidence that it actually occurred or likely occurred, then we have reason to think otherwise.

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