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  1. #1
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    King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDSeb2zHQ0

    So... Obama has decided to grant about 5 million people temporary amnesty. Outstanding. Through an executive order, Obama has declared amnesty by fiat.


    I don't think his executive order will be declared illegal by any court. The courts generally stay away from these sorts of battles between the branches. Yet, I do believe Obama is setting an awful precedent. Can't get Congress to go along with your plan? Just use an executive order. Now, Obama's apologists will note that the number of executive orders he has given is a relatively small number compared to previous Presidents. Fair enough. So, by such a standard, we could claim in WWII, the U.S. hardly retaliated against the Japanese since we only dropped two bombs in comparison to the thousands dropped on Pearl Harbor. Historically, I am being a little inaccurate here, but the point to made is that the number is not the only relevant fact.

    We must consider the size as well. By size, Obama's executive orders have acted almost like legislation unto themselves. In the matter of immigration, where he failed to work with Congress to get something passed, he simply has created his own legislation. Again, the President has claimed his actions are not unlike the past actions of other Presidents in regards to immigration. It should be noted that politifact rated this claim as half-true. Yes, over the last 50 years nearly every President has used executive action to handle immigration. Never has it been on this sort of scale. The Obama spokeholes will try to claim G.H.W. Bush granted amnesty to a similar percentage of immigrants through executive order. This, though, is based on a highly questionable statistic that most believe is highly exaggerated. Bush's order granted amnesty to less than 100,000 people, not the 1.5 million Obama is claiming. This makes a big difference as it relates to Obama's argument since his order is granting amnesty to about 40% of the illegal immigrant population.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...migrants-nope/

    Here is the upshot. You may approve of Obama's actions because you agree with him. Remember this when you have a President use the executive order just as recklessly to achieve something you find abhorrent. The ends never justify the means. We would all be best to remember that. Obama is seriously jeopardizing our system of checks and balances. In fact, he has admitted his actions are in serious breach of the Constitution no less than a dozen times.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...l-immigration/

    I believe Americans should be protesting Obama's executive order whether they agree with the sentiment or not. Even if you voted for Obama, it is unlikely you voted him to be King.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  3. #2
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    His response to the hypothetical on taxes yesterday was likewise a bit confusing. How his action is "prosecutorial discretion" but anyone choosing to do the same with taxes wouldn't be (and he offered no explanation why) highlights, imo, why this President has not only lost more than any other at SCOTUS, but lost badly (unanimously) when compared to other Presidents. http://www.mrctv.org/blog/watch-pres...tion-precedent
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #3
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    I don't think his executive order will be declared illegal by any court.
    Given your other statements, and the past statements of the president. If his actions are unconst and the courts don't weigh in... they are pathetically useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    The courts generally stay away from these sorts of battles between the branches.
    If not now.. when? Wait till the pres disbands congress?
    I don't think I'm saying your wrong here, but at some point doesn't the bridge too far idea come up?
    And when I say if not now when, I am asking for your personal opinion assuming they don't step in now.
    To serve man.

  5. #4
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Can't get Congress to go along with your plan? Just use an executive order.
    Why is this it a bad thing to use the power you have to get what you want done, done?

    By size, Obama's executive orders have acted almost like legislation unto themselves.
    With about 15m undocumented immigrants, it seems to me he has solved a third of the immigration problem. I think it is better to do something rather than nothing.


    Here is the upshot. You may approve of Obama's actions because you agree with him. Remember this when you have a President use the executive order just as recklessly to achieve something you find abhorrent. The ends never justify the means. We would all be best to remember that.
    I'm not clear what anyone is finding abhorrent here. He's using the powers granted to him to do something he promised. We can agree or disagree with the actions, which I'm not clear that you are here, but it is a little weird to disagree that he should use his presidential powers. I'm sure that the GOP will use their new found powers to shut down the government - now I would find that abhorrent, but I wouldn't deny that they have the power to do so. In fact, I am hoping that the GOP will indeed actually do something for a change, rather than being naysayers and the party of no.


    Even if you voted for Obama, it is unlikely you voted him to be King.
    Today, 5 million people are living a much less stressful life, now with hope that they can stay in a country, as a family; as they always had been. It seems that if he is being a King then he is merely helping the people that are already here, practically citizens and already contributing to the country in ways 'real' Americans won't.

  6. #5
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Why is this it a bad thing to use the power you have to get what you want done, done?
    The contention in this thread is if he does have the power to do it. .. your simply begging the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    With about 15m undocumented immigrants, it seems to me he has solved a third of the immigration problem. I think it is better to do something rather than nothing.
    Not if that something is unconst.
    To serve man.

  7. #6
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The contention in this thread is if he does have the power to do it. .. your simply begging the question.
    Well, if he doesn't then yes, I'd agree that he would not be within his powers. I guess this will be another one for SCOTUS.


    Not if that something is unconst.
    That has to be proven.

  8. #7
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    That has to be proven.
    I'm taking HIS word on it, the word not motivated by political expediency.
    To serve man.

  9. #8
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm taking HIS word on it, the word not motivated by political expediency.
    Not sure what you're getting at - whose word?

  10. #9
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by jj
    Not sure what you're getting at - whose word?
    Obama's.
    To serve man.

  11. #10
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Given your other statements, and the past statements of the president. If his actions are unconst and the courts don't weigh in... they are pathetically useless.


    If not now.. when? Wait till the pres disbands congress?
    I don't think I'm saying your wrong here, but at some point doesn't the bridge too far idea come up?
    And when I say if not now when, I am asking for your personal opinion assuming they don't step in now.
    I think you are taking things to extremes here. Yes, I believe Obama has overstepped his bounds. Obama has claimed many times the behavior he is taking now is unconstitutional. The courts will give the Congress time to find ways to limit the President's authority before taking action and that could be years. That is just the way it is.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  12. #11
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    He probably can do this, but I'm not sure he should do this.

    Mind you overall I'm pretty open to immigration in general, but I don't know how much this accomplishes to a more comprehensive solution and as mentioned, it lasts only as long as Obama does so it is no great issue victory, just an image thing and potentially troubling.

    As I've posted before, compared to many other presidents Obama hasn't actually used executive orders as much as many others. Mind you the scope of those orders is something much harder to measure and does matter. This is a broad order with a significant short term effect.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #12
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    I think you are taking things to extremes here. Yes, I believe Obama has overstepped his bounds. Obama has claimed many times the behavior he is taking now is unconstitutional. The courts will give the Congress time to find ways to limit the President's authority before taking action and that could be years. That is just the way it is.
    Well, I agree that the courts will wait if only because the process takes a long time.
    What I can't see is the lower courts saying "well we want to give congress a chance, so we are ruling it const."

    I mean, isn't there already a case going to courts? .. of course if there never is a case brought to the courts at all, that is just our own faults.
    To serve man.

  14. #13
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    The Senate bill has been waiting for months, get on with it. Completely the house leaderships fault and responsibility.

    Obama put his finger in the crack.

    Congress and republican's really have a choice/chance to do something now and gain much respect.

  15. #14
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The Senate bill has been waiting for months, get on with it. Completely the house leaderships fault and responsibility.

    Obama put his finger in the crack.

    Congress and republican's really have a choice/chance to do something now and gain much respect.
    Obama is trying to do by fiat what he could not accomplish legislatively. While you may not like the fact the House leadership has prevented a vote on the Senate bill, there is nothing remotely illegal about it. It is part of the process. The Democrats, Obama, and the Senate knew they were supporting an immigration bill which would die in the House. They chose to go forward with it anyhow. They chose to make political points rather than look for an actual solution. Does this give Obama the right to legislate from the Oval Office? Do you want a President wielding his powers in this manner?


    Let me pose a scenario for you which I think is a pretty good analogy. As you know several Republicans have come out in favor of a less progressive tax system. One such version is the flat tax where all Americans must pay a flat percentage of income. The next hypothetical President and his advisors favor a straight 10% flat tax for everyone. So, unable to get his flat tax proposal through Congress since the Republican Senate cannot get past the Democrat filibuster, he decides to wield his Presidential executive authority. He declares an executive order that the IRS will use prosecutorial discretion when going after income cheats. People who pay the flat tax percentage of their income, even if it is less than the actual amount owed by law, shall not be prosecuted. The IRS will be commanded to only go after people who pay less than the flat tax amount. Effectively, the President has just rewritten the tax code by telling the IRS to ignore people who don't pay their taxes in full. Would you find this executive order to be Constitutional? Would you have a problem legally with this President's actions? Do you believe, even if the actions are legal, that the President, in this scenario, is abusing his executive powers?

    Again, the point I am making is that the ends do not justify the means. You can appreciate the President's views without supporting his actions and recognizing that they may even be harmful.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #15
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    So we finally see who it is who is not willing to compromise, the republicans.

    Show me what's wrong with that bill.

  17. #16
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Again, the point I am making is that the ends do not justify the means.
    That may be asking too much of the Democratic party Ibelsd. Would liberalism have much of a platform without this ideology?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  19. #17
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So we finally see who it is who is not willing to compromise, the republicans.

    Show me what's wrong with that bill.
    I am not arguing whether the bill is good nor bad. The fact is that Obama couldn't get the bill through Congress. The bill didn't become law. Are you disputing that? It doesn't matter whether Republicans will or will not compromise. Essentially, what your arguing is that Obama has the right to pass his own legislation if the opposition party refuses to compromise with him in a manner that Obama determines is sufficient. It would seem to be irrelevant to what side of the aisle you're on to believe this is a poor idea.

    It is not lost on me that you decided to completely ignore my hypothetical question.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    The proper remedy for this President's abuses of power--and this is just the latest of many--is impeachment. It's probably not wise politically, at least yet, to try to impeach the country's first black president, but that may change if his star falls much further. If there ever is a move to impeach Mr. Obama, the least concern will be a shortage of grounds.

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  22. #19
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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The proper remedy for this President's abuses of power--and this is just the latest of many--is impeachment. It's probably not wise politically, at least yet, to try to impeach the country's first black president, but that may change if his star falls much further. If there ever is a move to impeach Mr. Obama, the least concern will be a shortage of grounds.
    You know, call me crazy, but I was about to disagree with this, but decided to do a little research first and came across this website which contains the history of impeachment in the U.S.
    http://www.crf-usa.org/impeachment/h...demeanors.html

    This is what I found most interesting:
    "The convention adopted “high crimes and misdemeanors” with little discussion. Most of the framers knew the phrase well. Since 1386, the English parliament had used “high crimes and misdemeanors” as one of the grounds to impeach officials of the crown. Officials accused of “high crimes and misdemeanors” were accused of offenses as varied as misappropriating government funds, appointing unfit subordinates, not prosecuting cases, not spending money allocated by Parliament, promoting themselves ahead of more deserving candidates, threatening a grand jury, disobeying an order from Parliament, arresting a man to keep him from running for Parliament, losing a ship by neglecting to moor it, helping “suppress petitions to the King to call a Parliament,” granting warrants without cause, and bribery. Some of these charges were crimes. Others were not. The one common denominator in all these accusations was that the official had somehow abused the power of his office and was unfit to serve."

    In particular, among the items listed under high crimes and misdemeanors is "not prosecuting cases". Understand the framers took their cue from British practice and there are obvious parts of the above phrase which are dated. Yet, the idea of impeaching a President who refuses to prosecute cases (i.e. commanding ICE to not deport people who are here illegally). Now, I am not claiming it is a wise political move. I am claiming Obama has probably done enough to deserve it and in a less polarizing age, I think he may well have been impeached.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: King Obama and his Merry Executive Orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You know, call me crazy, but I was about to disagree with this, but decided to do a little research first and came across this website which contains the history of impeachment in the U.S.
    http://www.crf-usa.org/impeachment/h...demeanors.html

    This is what I found most interesting:
    "The convention adopted “high crimes and misdemeanors” with little discussion. Most of the framers knew the phrase well. Since 1386, the English parliament had used “high crimes and misdemeanors” as one of the grounds to impeach officials of the crown. Officials accused of “high crimes and misdemeanors” were accused of offenses as varied as misappropriating government funds, appointing unfit subordinates, not prosecuting cases, not spending money allocated by Parliament, promoting themselves ahead of more deserving candidates, threatening a grand jury, disobeying an order from Parliament, arresting a man to keep him from running for Parliament, losing a ship by neglecting to moor it, helping “suppress petitions to the King to call a Parliament,” granting warrants without cause, and bribery. Some of these charges were crimes. Others were not. The one common denominator in all these accusations was that the official had somehow abused the power of his office and was unfit to serve."

    In particular, among the items listed under high crimes and misdemeanors is "not prosecuting cases". Understand the framers took their cue from British practice and there are obvious parts of the above phrase which are dated. Yet, the idea of impeaching a President who refuses to prosecute cases (i.e. commanding ICE to not deport people who are here illegally). Now, I am not claiming it is a wise political move. I am claiming Obama has probably done enough to deserve it and in a less polarizing age, I think he may well have been impeached.
    He's done far more than enough to be impeached. Andy McCarthy has written a whole book, "Faithless Execution," listing and categorizing the many abuses of power and insults to the Constitution this President has engaged in from the beginning. If there is ever a move to impeach him, coming up with enough material to make out a bill of impeachment will not be a problem. What Obama has done is far more serious than anything done by either of the two Presidents who were impeached, Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson. It's even more damaging to the foundation's of this nation's government than what Mr. Nixon did.

    Barack Obama is a damned lying leftist who resents the very country he is sworn to serve and does not wish it well. He richly deserves to be impeached, tried, and removed from office for gross abuses of the public trust. Politically, that would not be smart unless there were something approaching the 67 votes needed to convict in the Senate. There would be too much backlash from his sympathizers if impeachment by the House looked like an attack his enemies knew could not succeed but had done just out of spite.

    Millions of drones who like having other people's money redistributed to them form a large and permanent core of support for him--Obama could be caught red-handed selling out the country to jihadists, and they wouldn't care, as long as their checks kept coming. And for millions of whites, impeachment would be proof that he'd made monkeys of them by getting them to vote for him. Too many people still think that as the first black President, he deserves extra slack. If he screws up much worse, though, a lot of them will no longer give a damn what color he is.

 

 
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