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  1. #1
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    Looking for a formal religion debate

    Hi all. How is everyone on ODN?

    I was feeling like spending quality debate time with good people. Would anyone like to have a debate on a religious topic? I would take the religious side vs a non-believer. In the alternative, I could take the Jewish side vs. Christian.

    I saw that the ressurection of Jesus has been done already. However, after reading it, I see there is a lot that was missed.

    Any takers?

    The religion forum in general seems to be on vacation

    Shalom

    Dak
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  2. #2
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi all. How is everyone on ODN?

    I was feeling like spending quality debate time with good people. Would anyone like to have a debate on a religious topic? I would take the religious side vs a non-believer. In the alternative, I could take the Jewish side vs. Christian.

    I saw that the ressurection of Jesus has been done already. However, after reading it, I see there is a lot that was missed.

    Any takers?

    The religion forum in general seems to be on vacation

    Shalom

    Dak
    Hey mr dak! i think i remember seeing you somewhere else, or, here? i think i used a different name back then, but back to topic.

    I think all religions are valid. any religion that makes people docile and stuff, law abiding citizens, and makes people help each other is societal and will be a ode to the community. jews have been persecuted for all time, but, it is only where they gather in a group in isreal that they are persecuted. why is that? is it because people want the resources the british bought for them after world war two? if we were to observe the life style of jews outside isreal, they are only bumped to the side - this is the price of dignity, to go to a war zone? of course, there is a solution to this problem in isreal, as the rocket fire comes from, reportedly, the gaza strip and palestine.

    Now, do you think the rockets are fired by the soldiers formally, or they are slipped to some childish people for a price? i think they sell them to the childish people that will ride up tot he border and launch them at schools and stuff. so, the problem is not the state of palestine, but they pay the price for it by not being allowed a seat at the united nations.

    So, if the problem lies with the illegal activity, i suggest they take out the electronic launch panels of the rockets and issue them in times of war only. this will render them useless, and then there will be a no 'flex zone,' of course. this is one of many solutions, don't you think? i hope you do some thing good with this new chance at peace, and, allow the palestinians to vsit the holy sites by train on fridays, as i know jews and muslims walk freely in the street every day without fighting.

    Well, if we were to observe the state of the world, we would see that many people like watching strip shows, yes? i bet if we were to take the men and strip them in front of the women, there would be much merriment and joy and stuff, and people would have a good laugh, relieve some stress, and have a good time. what do you think?
    !! Servant of Gaia !!

  3. #3
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Wow, Dak, long time no see. As I recall you are quote formidable in this arena!

    I might be interested in a bible topic. Perhaps an argument about whether or not God of the old testament is or is not inspired by earlier Sumarian deities and religious traditions. Its not something either of us can prove but I could open with a case for and you could rebut. I would mostly be pulling from the work of others as I am no scholar but it could be an interesting exploration of the topic I am familiar with but by no means an expert on.

    I'd propose to limit the post size to focus on the strongest arguments as I suspect it is a potentially huge topic I suspect much has been written for and against.

    BTW: We had a rabid anti-semite on a few months back. I tried to give him a good debate thrashing. Would have loved to have you here for that one to talk Talmud. I had to rely pretty heavily on research for it as I don't know the Talmud or its referencing system well. I learned a lot in the process though.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #4
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Hey Sigfried,

    The Sumerian thing sounds interesting. I also smiled when it reminded me of the original Ghostbusters movie. If you want you can start a thread on that and we can set up parameters? I am sure you thrashed him lol.

    Good to see you,

    Dak

    ---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

    Hi Charlatan,

    Peace is a great idea. You just need people to back it.

    Um Char... you know I am not allowed to endorse strip shows.... but I guess those attending strip shows won't be involved in acts of terror?

    DAK
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  5. #5
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi all. How is everyone on ODN?

    I was feeling like spending quality debate time with good people. Would anyone like to have a debate on a religious topic? I would take the religious side vs a non-believer. In the alternative, I could take the Jewish side vs. Christian.

    I saw that the ressurection of Jesus has been done already. However, after reading it, I see there is a lot that was missed.

    Any takers?
    Hi Rabbi, welcome back to ODN. Feel free to start a thread on a religious topic that interests you with a clear OP and I'm pretty sure some ODN members will get involved.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

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  6. #6
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Here is my proposal Dak. If you agree let me know and I'll get started on an opening argument and start a thread.

    Formal debate

    Topic: God of the Old Testiment is inspired by or evolved from older deities and legends of the Sumarian tradition.

    Qualifier: This is a inductive debate where in evidence is offered to increase or decrease the likelyhood of the truth of the topic statement rather than definitive proof or disproof.

    Expectations: Debate will involve the presentation of research and evidence from scholars of the topic as well as deduction and reasoning from the participants. The authority and integrity of sources is a valid line of argument.

    Format: There will be a topic supporter and a challenger. The supporter will start the debate with an opening case in support of the topic. The challenger will follow with their case against. These opening posts are not in direct response to one another.

    After these opening posts, each side will present rebuttal to the others claims and/or present further lines of support for their position.

    After the first rebuttals each will make a post responding to the rebuttal posts. In these third posts no new lines of support can be introduced.

    After the second rebuttal each will make a final post offering a final summary of what they feel are their best arguments and why their position is the best supported.

    Style guide: Posts must be limited to 1000 words or less. This is not a strict limit but a general guideline to keep arguments focused. Ideally each line of argument should be numbered and titled for easy reference.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #7
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Sigfried,

    When you say : "Topic: God of the Old Testiment is inspired by or evolved from older deities and legends of the Sumarian tradition."

    What do you mean by :"inspired by or evolved"?

    Also, if you were to be right about the source inspiration for the OT stories being Sumerian, what would that cause us to accept? What is at stake here? I am not sure about that.

    "The authority and integrity of sources is a valid line of argument." Do you mean to say that this will not be the fallacy of appeal to authority, if we will appeal to the opinion of an expert?

    TY, DAK
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  8. #8
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    When you say : "Topic: God of the Old Testiment is inspired by or evolved from older deities and legends of the Sumarian tradition."

    What do you mean by :"inspired by or evolved"?
    The general idea is to show that some stories or characters of the old testament (god especially) were, prior to the writing of the bible, Sumarian characters and stories. Presumably this would involve evidence of such Sumarian stories, the similarities they have to the OT stories and evidence that speaks to them being older. Based on the scant reading I've done in the past, likely example might be arguing that the story of Eden was originally a Sumarian story with a specific Deity playing the role that god plays in the story, drawing parallels between the two stories and the characters, offering testimony on the roots of the words used showing Sumarian origins, and evidence dating the stories such that the Sumarian legend is shown to likely be the older of the two.

    Also, if you were to be right about the source inspiration for the OT stories being Sumerian, what would that cause us to accept? What is at stake here? I am not sure about that.
    I wanted to specify it is inductive argument because nothing could really cause either of us to accept the truth of eachother's arguments. I think at best we can lay out a reasonable possibility and then argue as to how likely it is or is not. We can probably recognize the strength of one another cases even if we are not persuaded by them. What is at stake I hope is merely each of us learns more about Sumerian religion, the Jewish faith, and how they may or may not relate to one another. There is the subtext that if I am correct, it would cast some doubt as to the authenticity of the OT as revealed truth but logically it doesn't have to mean it is false. It could be a refinement of an earlier flawed Sumerian faith. (I might also learn how to spell Sumerian without the spell checker helping me )

    "The authority and integrity of sources is a valid line of argument." Do you mean to say that this will not be the fallacy of appeal to authority, if we will appeal to the opinion of an expert?
    I mean to say that neither of us are likely experts on Sumarian religion so we will rely largely on the research of others for our claims. (I know I will.) I think when we do that we have to allow for attacking those sources as unqualified or untrustworthy in some way. If I quote Bozo the Clown who says that "god is totally Marduke but without a beard" you could respond that we have no reason to believe that Bozo qualifies as an expert on the topic so this evidence is not very compelling as a source of evidence. I could return to point out that in fact he has a degree in Archaeology and has written several respected books on the topic under his real name. Because the debate is inductive we don't presume to prove the absolute truth of his claim, only the strength of trust we might have in it.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #9
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Great Sigfried, in that case, I agree.

    I guess you can go first?

    DAK
    Last edited by RabbiDak; December 4th, 2014 at 07:24 AM. Reason: spelling
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  10. #10
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    I would like to Join the debate, I am a new member, Pretty much against living our lives based on stone age scrolls from semi-literate goat herders. I think it is time for us to invent new religions based on modern knowledge. We should pick and choose parts of religions that we like, and get rid of the silly stuff.
    Rabbi, I also believe that Israel has far too much influence over America, Thank you!

  11. #11
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Hey John, welcome to the site.
    I have to say, that casting the OT writers as semi-literate goat herders, is more of a biased slurr then it is a reasonable basis for a position on the matter. Fact is that the OT is a literary marvel, and by any measure that one would like to measure any literature it would rank among the best ever made.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  12. #12
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    Re: Looking for a formal religion debate

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    casting the OT writers as semi-literate goat herders, is more of a biased slurr then it is a reasonable basis for a position on the matter
    I think you misinterpreted his intention with that comment. Far from a slur, it seems to be more an expression of the opinion that there are better sources than the bible for the type of guidance for which it is often used. If he is wrong about the average literacy level or common occupation of those in question, your should educate him instead of expressing your own biases in their defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Fact is that the OT is a literary marvel, and by any measure that one would like to measure any literature it would rank among the best ever made.
    This is more of an opinion you have than a fact, and is irrelevant since he was not referring to the old testament as literature, but as something on which to base one's life.
    Last edited by futureboy; February 4th, 2016 at 07:58 AM.

 

 

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