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  1. #41
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What reasoning are you using to assume that physical death must be confined to hell? You seem to be a bit obsessed about hell.

    I'm a bit obsessed about trying to get people to see they need to be saved from Hell. The reasoning I am using to explain the necessity of Hell is I think pretty clearly stated in the OP. Phyical death is a process in time counting down to finality. Permanent death must be confined in Hell or everything in the universe is futile. This is stated as food for thought, and I hope not easily rejected for it's implications.



    Why is physical death a corruption? It’s a natural biological process that is part of our evolution.

    I'm trying to use plain English. The corruption of death is at work in our bodies and will eventually destroy our bodies so they will no longer be able to function in life. Our bodies are perishable, that is why some people think they can cheat death by having their bodies frozen before they perish beyond possible human designed repair in the corruption of death. The corruption of death shows the corruption of our souls, in that we at heart have fallen into imperfection. Only perfection is fit for eternal life. If we are not perfected, we will remain as we are; corrupt. Because of our corruption, we cannot be immortal. We are stuck in death with no way out, except that God save us from death. He can and will save us from death if we will believe He can and if we will come into agreement with Him about our need to be saved from Hell. If we won't agree with Him that we need to be saved from Hell, we will not allow Him to save us from Hell, and then who are we going to blame when we find ourselves in Hell? He cannot save us if we will not admit our need to be saved and we will not allow Him to change us from our enjoyment of the pleasures affforded as we indulge in things that only lead to the total corruption of death. The faith of God is reasonable, He wants to reason with you personally, He wants you to come into agreement with Him so He can save you from Hell. He wants you to know His mery and compassion for you and He wants you to not provoke his passionate hatred against the corruption of death which pollutes His creation untill it is forever confined in Hell where it will be consumed and the pollution of death cleansed by the fire rises as smoke of the torments of those who rejected God's offer of salvation, and they will against their will testify by that smoke to God's righteousness.



    Thank you for sharing your opinion about the details of existence in hell. I want to assume, at least for the purpose of debate, that you’ve never personally experienced hell – you can correct me if I’m mistaken. Nevertheless, I note that you do seem to assume quite a bit about this place. How do you know that some souls caught in the dredges of hell are not offered a way out? And since you say you are using logic, though I confess I’m not sure what type of logic you are using, one size (method) does not fit all seems logical to me.

    My logic is I think clearly stated in the OP, and thanks to your fair objections and questions about that logic, I will expand on it in an effort to get you to see that you can know beyond doubt that you are saved from Hell and you can know beyond doubt that you have eternal life now and you will never have to suffer death. The thing we trip over as we try to understand this logic is our own pride. It's hard to admit we are not good enough in ourselves to have eternal life. It's hard to admit that we really deserve to die and burn in Hell.
    If we can really understand that God loves us, we can admit without fear or anger that we deserve to die and burn in Hell, and in fear of being found suspicious by God, we admit our guilt of breaking His law and hope in His mercy. "Lord be merciful to me, a sinner", is the prayer of a person who God can justify in eternal life. It is an admission of guilt for things worthy of death and eternal separation from God in Hell because the sinner has sinned againt God, broken His perfect law, and deserves no mercy. God wants to show mercy to us but He cannot if wie will not trust Him to save us before our death is finalized.

    Why are you assuming physical death is a punishment and something to be feared?

    Because it hurts. Have you never suffered pain? Have you never had your guts wrenched in sorrow for the death of somebody you loved? God loves you and His guts are wrenched for you at the thought of your dying. He wants you to live forever with Him and not forever separated from Him in death by Hell. God loves you dearly and He is grieved to see you die. I hope you live a long long time, but really, I already have enough close loved ones like you who I know are on their way to Hell and I love them and I don't want to see them go. I want everybody to live forever, but sadly they are not living forever. I hope that changes before it's too late and death is finalized.



    Why are you assuming everyone suffers when they make their transition?


    Transition from what to what? Do you think you can stop being what you are by going through the end of your time being counted down to the finality of death?

    A realm where unresolved energy is confined and neutralized – doesn’t mean physical death is corruption nor does it mean souls who don’t know God get a one-way ticket to such a realm.


    You already have a one way ticket on the train of death, and that train does not belong in Heaven. It's going some where, and God is going to be finished with it foreveer soon. "Soon" can be a million years when we are talking about eternity, but the way things in this world are lining up for the Battle of Armageddon and the utter annihilation of human life on Earth, I really think it's al going to be finishe a lot sooner than a million years.

    Why are you assuming earth is not a nice place to exist?

    Ummmmm...try asking that question to the next guy you see grimmacing while he is being held as hostage by ISIS waiting for them to but his head off like a butcher dismembering a cow.

    He does do it through you and me. Now just think if everyone fundamentally understood this principle. Bear in mind God does not have physical hands and feet or legs and arms. Yes, he can allow his mighty angels to intervene/interact with our laws and rescue someone who may be about to accidently die when no one is around, and that does happen sometimes – though not always. Why not always? I don’t think it’s because death is corruption.

    Death is due because of corruption. It's in our blood, it's in our genes. Scientist are trying to stop it. They never will, and the earth will always have no shortage of evil as long as God allows it to continue under death's dominion. People will be people. Evil always tries to dominate over good, and that's why we have things like ISIS in the world today, that's why Hitler rose to power, that's why the evil Crusades were used to stop the Muslim attempt to conquer Europe during that time. And that same corruption is strong in our own political leaders in America. For every single politician who gets convcted of corruption, it's pretty safe to say there are at least ten others getting away with the things that one was cought doing. God is going to put en end to all corruption. It's al going where it belongs in Hell. It's only a matter of time before it's done.



    God does have physical hands and legs and arms. He alos has a body which was pierced by a spear after He gave His life for you. That spear pierced His heart and the water and the blood which gushed out showed how much He loved you, that He died of a broken heart for you trying to save you frrom Hell. His hands and feet were pierced by nails for you, He took your place in death to save you from Hell, so if you will believe on Him and receive Him as your Saviour, your death is burried with Him and you will be alive with Him in His resurrection now and forever. That's how much God loves you, that He gave His only Son as the payment for your breaking of Godl's law, so the wrath of God agaisnt the pollution of corruption which brings death was poured out on Himself so He is satisfied that the debt you owe Him for your time has been paid by His own incorrupt, unpolluted blood and by His blood He is just to give you mercy and eternal life, saving you from Hell.

    Are you aware or do you accept that God gave man dominion over the earth? (I think that means if we break it, we get to fix it.) When you give someone dominion over a planet -- that’s big time responsibility. If you think earth isn’t a nice place to exist and evolve, why are you blaming God? Then you might want to support why earth isn't an amazing place to experience life.

    Yes God gave man doninion over the Earth, but man reclused himself of that dominion when he broke God's law and became corrupt.
    Now death has dominion over ther Earth. Only God can fix it and He will have it forever fixed the way He inteneded it to be when He created it. When all corrupition if forever confined in Hell where only the smoke of corruptions torments burned and burnign forever rises as a testimony to God's righteousness and such a mess as we are in in this world will NEVER happen again.


    Why should we expect God to get us out of all our jams? Also, just because angels don’t answer or prevent every 911 call on the planet does not mean God is not involved.

    God won't get us out of all our jams excecpt by taking us out of this world. If God does not take us out of our corruption, out of this world, our jams will never end. God cannot take us out of this world without changing us into being non-corrupt. If we will receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, He will be in us alive by His Holy Spirt, a new life in us, a sinless life from God who will have us saved from our corruption untill that day when throught the finality of our bodies decay we will be forever removed from the dominion of death in the world and forever free of corruption and forever like the resurrected Saviour, Jesus Christ, to live with Him, by Him, through Him, and for Him foreever in Heaven and wie will joyfully give Him all of the honor, the praise, the glory, and the worship He deserves for creating us.

    Except perhaps that man was made in God’s image and likeness. Now ... why would the Creator do that?

    The Creator made us in His image and His likeness because He loves to give life, He delights in the company of beings who are like Him. That's why he gave us powers of resoning, communication, and creativiiy, even procreation to bring more beings like Himself into the world. The fact that we can procreate makes us more like God than the angels, and the fact that we can reason and communicate like God makes us more than the animals. God made us for Himself to enjoy, and He wants to give us all things in His creation in eternal life because He is good, He is love, and he delights to show Himself as He is. He wants you to know His mercy, He wants you to know His love, He wants to pour out on you all of His blessings on you in eternal life, so good they can scaresly begin to be imagined while we are in our bodies of death.


    You seem to have some rather negative and preconceived ideas about physical death and how God/heaven observes the natural process of physical death.


    How can you say God only observes the natural process of death when He actually came down from heaven and took your death on Himself when He died for you? Yes He oberves the natural process of death, and it grieves Him and He is not going to sit back and watch it forever. He's going to put an end to it forever. This is why Hell is necessary and I know it's a real literal place so awful we don't want to believe it is real for the people who are there, but it is/ it has to be. Sadly, it has to be the way it is.

    I'm only being realistic about death. To think we can go on the way we are free from Hell as we are now is not being realistic. To hope that we unexist in death is not being realistic. To believe we have the right to exist outside of the fire of Hell when we do not deserve to live past death is not being realistic. I don't want to trust in illusions or dreams of how things could be if I could make it all be the way I want it to be. I'm not God. I don't want to live as a dreamer. I want to live in reality forever, and that is given to me by God thorugh the blood of Jesus Chrsit.


    See? Thank you for you excellent questions and for allowing me to expand on the OP.

    No, we’re not better, but we can be like God since, after all, we were made in his image and likeness. So what's wrong with being his hands and feet and little super heroes in our own little way? Perhaps he expects this. Perhaps he champions this. Perhaps this is part of the plan. Perhaps this planet would be a nicer place even if just half the population were more like God? Sounds like you’ve already enlisted. I might recommend that you be ready for your next assignment. The reward for service is more service.


    Why are you damned to die?

    Maybe because we’re not damned.

    "Maybe" is not something I want to hope in. To hope in "maybe" is to hope in selfish desire which I do not have power to make real except in my imagination, and that is not living in reality.


    Why should God as a norm, intervene in the law of causation? And when man does go through physical death, why are you assuming God’s unconditional love for the soul is not in play?


    As a norm, people will not allow God to intervene. God wants to own people forever giving them all things in His kingdom of heaven, and most people are afraid to give up there temporal pleasures of self-induced rewards. Most people in truth love death and try to make it into something good or beautiful. Many like to say it's only a natural transition to be welcomed when it comes.

    God's unconditional love for the soul is proven in the fact that He paid the price of death Himself for that soul so that soul can be pardoned from Hell. The law of causation brings death, the law of God preserves life. Knowing the law of God is perfect, we know we have broken that law and deserve to die. God intervened in the law of causation because He loves us. He intervened by dying in our place to save us from the law of causation by which we are condemned to die and burn in hell if we will not accept His intervention by believing on His death, burial, and resurrection for us and receving Him, the Living God, The Lord Jesus Christ, personally as our Saviour. You can talk to God about all of this and He ill hear you and save you from Hell if you will only thank Him for His intervention against the law of causation which destroys by death.

    Probably because we’re not ready for it and a parent who loves his children unconditionally knows this.

    I'm sorry, I'm spending a lot of time here and need to wrap this up so I'll have to get back to the above statement about a parents uncondiional love later if you don't find it answered in my earlier repies here.








    It sounds like your cup might be half empty. Life is a wonderful gift!

    Yes life is a wonderful gift form God. It means God is good. Life means God is good. The meaning of life is that God is good.


    Hell on earth in the land of the living seems to be alive and well though it appears to be subject to certain laws in this realm. Physical death is not necessary to observe this.
    Hell is not on earth. The corruption of death rules on earth. Sin makes people act and talk like devils against God. The worst of human experience on Earth is nothing compared to burning in Hell forever. The worst of the sufferings of this present evil time are not worth to be compared to the glory of God which will be revealed in those who are saved from Hell. I hope you are saved.

  2. #42
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Is there any place in the Bible that describes God's love as unconditional?
    I don't know. But that's irrelevant as I'm not appealing to the bible as support for any of my positions.

    I'm just saying that if one does hold that God loves us unconditionally, the notion that he would send any of us to Hell for eternity seems contradictory and I have yet to hear this contradiction adequately explained away.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, I agree that I haven't made an argument against the OP (I'm actually thinking of making one that supports it). But the fact that I haven't made one doesn't mean I don't have one. Unfortunately, we were never able to clear up the issue of what it means for God to be "good" because we sort of lost track of where we were due to clarifying some other things for one another.

    Getting back on track, as it stands now, I'm willing to accept the following terms and definitions:

    Omnipotent - God can do anything that can be done
    Omnipresent - God is present everywhere at the same time
    Omniscient - God Knows everything that was, is and ever will be

    Regarding God's "goodness":

    ~ He possesses the maximal amount of "good"
    ~ He is the source of "good"
    ~ God is "good", but "good" is NOT God

    Regarding God's Loving Nature:

    ~ God is "love", but "love" is not God
    ~ God loves everyone unconditionally
    ~ If God does something for/to us, that thing is an expression of his love, whether we view it that way or not (this includes going to hell).

    Are these terms and conditions acceptable to you? If so, we can continue the discussion.
    It sounds like there are too many unnecessary complications for me to agree to.....but I'll try.

    Omnisicient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.....all well enough defined I suppose, as long as you keep in mind that being omnipotent does not allow God to deny Himself. There are some things He cannot do. He cannot lie. He cannot deny Himself. Before you try to prove God can do either of these things, let me say I will not waste time trying to convince anybody they are wrong in this thread if they say God can lie or He can deny Himslelf. I will not entertain silly questions such as "Can God make a rock so big that He cannot move it?" God is God, and He cannot stop being God. If He were to lie or do something too big for Him to change the thing that He did, He would be denying Himself. It is not possible for God to lie, and it is not possible for God to deny Himself. His being omnipotent does not permit Him to go out of existence or concede His Lordship to creatures less than Himself. He rules over His creation and He cannot stop ruling over His Creation.

    He knew before He created angels or people that some of the angels would rebel agaisnt His rule and He knew mankind would fall into the same devilish aspiration in desire to deny God's right to rule over them.

    You cannot hide from God's prescence. Anywhere you go, He is there, though you may be separated from him in darkness, unable to see Him. Yet He is there.

    I think you can agree to all of these elaborations of the three basic attributes of God. If you cannot, I doubt that the arguments can remain coherent between us.


    Regarding God's goodness: God is good. I understood the meaning of the word "good" as far back as I can remember, far back into my early childhood. I don't know why you keep wanting to complicate this word other than as a lead-in to some kind of argument in which you will try to prove God is not good, therefore He does not have the right to rule against anybody by leaving them forever separated from Him in Hell. When I was a child, our repeated prayer of thanks beofore our meals was "God is great, God is good, and we thank Him for this food. Give us Lord our daily bread, for by thy hand we must be fed." I never had any trouble undertanding the meaning of "good" and I never had any trouble understanding that God is good. Sometimes I doubted His goodness when I saw the strengths of evil in the world and even close by me in people near enough for me to touch, and I knew evil was in my soul at times when I found myself doing evil things such as stealing or lying or beating up my brothers just for the fun of it, and laughing at them when they got frustrated from being unable to beat me. They're just lucky I didn't kill them. Nobody had to show me (or you) how to do evil, it's in our nature. If you try to tell me you have never done evil, I'm going to have to say you are lying and there is no point in arguing with you because you are too strongly in denial of the truth for me to have any hope of reasoning with you.

    Regarding God's loving nature: He is not always loving. He hates evil because He does not want to punish but evil must be punished. God is angry at evil. You can't make God into being nothing but a warm fuzzy who will not punish anybody in eternal condemnation where evil belongs. If you can agree that God being love does not preclude Him from acting in wrath against evil, then we are agreed.

    Somehow, I think you are trying to lead me into agreeing with you that God cannot possibly in reality be good. If you are trying to take me there, forget it. You can go there, and many others will go there with you. You might find Thomas Aquinas there. I really think his teaching about "omnibenevolence" was designed to promote confusion about God. This "omnibenevolence" thing is used as the foundation of modern atheistic arguments againt God (arguments which really are nothing new, the devil started it long before mankind joined in). I am going with God. He is good. God is good all the time. All of the time, God is good. Today, yesterday, and forever, God is good. Always was, always is, and always will be good.

    The way you seem to be laying bait traps with complicated explainations of words which really are not complicated, I have to believe you are trying to find ground to make an arguement that will stand. There is no wisdom, nor counsel, nor understanding against the Lord. Trying to say He is not good because Hell is bad for whoever is there is not going to make God go away, and it won't excuse anybody from Hell. I stand by the OP. Thank you for your questions which allowed me to elaborate on the OP.

    ---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Beings in Hell might not know God's love but they will know and acknowledge his justice and holiness. If you read Revelation 20 you will find that before being condemned to Hell they will stand before God to be judged. Have you considered how that will affect them? Isaiah once saw God and this is how it affected him.

    In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
    “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
    the whole earth is full of his glory!”
    And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
    (Isaiah 6:1-5 ESV)

    God is light and in the presence of his light we will see ourselves as we really are. Those who are condemned will see their own guilt and will know that they deserve the punishment they receive from God.

    At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    (Philippians 2:10-11 ESV)


    ---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------


    Is there any place in the Bible that describes God's love as unconditional?
    John 3:16 God loves everybody. Some will know His love, most will not. Most will only know His wrath in Hell. When people in Hell bow at the name of Jesus and say He is LORD, they will do so against their will. They will not be able to stop themselves from bowing at the name of Jesus and saying He is LORD. I do not believe people in Hell will ever concede to God's righteousness in leaving them there. They may know they deserve to be there, but then they will say "this is not fair, God could have stopped me from going here" and things like that as they curse God forever for creating them and allowing them to end up in the Lake of Fire. The same arguements atheists make on earth against God will continue to be made in Hell agaisnt God, but they will no longer be heard by the living. Their arguments will go up in smoke forever, in the smoke of their torments of being in the place where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. People fight viciously against this idea because they are desparate to convince themselves that they are exempt from Hell simply because it is not their fault that they exist. My argument here about Hell is speculative, but not baseless. People in Hell will forever be what they always were, proud in rebellion agaisnt God and as it never has, it never will do them any good.

  4. #44
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    It sounds like there are too many unnecessary complications for me to agree to.....but I'll try.
    It might be much easier if you just say "yes" or "no" to my question. I'm not attempting to debate at this point. I'm trying to establish some common ground. I think you're using quite a lot of energy on reading things into what I've said that I didn't say. For example:

    YOU: "Regarding God's loving nature: He is not always loving."

    I didn't say that he was or wasn't. There is literally nothing in any of the comments I offered about God's loving nature that says or even suggests that God is some sort of "warm fuzzy who will not punish anybody".

    I said:

    ~ God is "love", but "love" is not God
    ~ God loves everyone unconditionally
    ~ If God does something for/to us, that thing is an expression of his love, whether we view it that way or not (this includes going to hell).

    Again, I'm trying to reach a common understanding here, and in this case I'm only going by what you said in post #23 where you said "God is love" and in post #8 where you said "Love is not God." That doesn't mean that God is always lovey-dovey. It just means that he loves us in the same way parents love their children. Parents love them, even if they make mistakes, even if they treat them badly, even if they want nothing do with them. And there are times when a parent might have to be harsh to their children BECAUSE they love them, up to and including kicking them out of their homes.

    Consider the parent with, say, a drug abusing son who is doing harm to themselves and his parents due to his selfish acts. Such a parent might ultimately have to call the police and have their son forcefully removed from their home for the betterment of themselves and (hopefully) the betterment of their son as well. Do the parents hate their child? NO. But they DO hate his behavior in the same way that God hates sin.

    So, with this in mind, do you agree with the proposed terms and definitions above or not? Yes or no?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    A side note not related to this thread: somehow when I typed John 3:16, the website posted it as a hyperlink reference to the ESV. The ESV is a corrupt translation of the Bible take from manuscripts historically rejected. The ESV was made as an attack against the Word of God, the same as all modern versions, for the excusive copyright profits of the editors who were ungodly men. Only the King James Bible was based on the Textus Receptus, the Received Text, and cannot be copyrighted. I never knowingly use any translation of the Word of God other than the correct English translation, the King James Bible.

    if anybody knows how I can change that automaic hyperlink so that if I do quote a Bible verse in my posts, it will show the quote taken from the King James Bible, please let me know.

    The topic of the veracity of the Word of God, the preservation of the Word of God, and His keeping of it so we can understand it correctly and without error in our own language of English is a whole different topic for a whole different debate not related to this thread. Maybe I'll take up that topic some day, but not today. I simply cannot leave the impression that I support differing translations which make it appear like the Word of God is not clear or reliable in English.

    ---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    It might be much easier if you just say "yes" or "no" to my question. I'm not attempting to debate at this point. I'm trying to establish some common ground. I think you're using quite a lot of energy on reading things into what I've said that I didn't say. For example:

    YOU: "Regarding God's loving nature: He is not always loving."

    I didn't say that he was or wasn't. There is literally nothing in any of the comments I offered about God's loving nature that says or even suggests that God is some sort of "warm fuzzy who will not punish anybody".

    I said:

    ~ God is "love", but "love" is not God
    ~ God loves everyone unconditionally
    ~ If God does something for/to us, that thing is an expression of his love, whether we view it that way or not (this includes going to hell).

    Again, I'm trying to reach a common understanding here, and in this case I'm only going by what you said in post #23 where you said "God is love" and in post #8 where you said "Love is not God." That doesn't mean that God is always lovey-dovey. It just means that he loves us in the same way parents love their children. Parents love them, even if they make mistakes, even if they treat them badly, even if they want nothing do with them. And there are times when a parent might have to be harsh to their children BECAUSE they love them, up to and including kicking them out of their homes.

    Consider the parent with, say, a drug abusing son who is doing harm to themselves and his parents due to his selfish acts. Such a parent might ultimately have to call the police and have their son forcefully removed from their home for the betterment of themselves and (hopefully) the betterment of their son as well. Do the parents hate their child? NO. But they DO hate his behavior in the same way that God hates sin.

    So, with this in mind, do you agree with the proposed terms and definitions above or not? Yes or no?
    The analogy of a parents love for it's child is insufficient for descibing God's love for us. A better anology would be for a parent to honestly love the person who had murdered their child. When you try to equate God's love to the love of a parent for it's own child, you are trying to bring God down to the level of being nothing more than a parent which is nothing more than a grown up child. Both the parent and the child have done evil against God. God gave His Son to die in their place, the parent and the child caused the death of God's only Son and God loves the people who murdered His Son, even though they still don't care that they killed Him. God's love is much more than a parent's love for it's child. God's love includes the fact that He loves His enemies even though they killed His Son.

    Because God executed our punishment on Himself as the Son of God, we cannot escape His anger against our sin except that our sin be covered by the blood of the Son of God, and our life be given to us from God in His bodily resurreciton. If the Spirit of God, Jesus Christ in Spirt, is not in us, Jesus Christ is not in us and we are lost in death and our blood will pay for our own sins and never be enough to cleanse our record or change us from what we are, sinners, and God has no place for us in creation other than Hell.

    Your analogy of parental love is void in describing God's love. You have to be God's child before His love for you is parental. Untill you become a child of God, His love for you is why He gives you time in hope that you will come into agreement with Him on your need to be saved from Hell and beleive on what He did to save you from Hell so you can honeslty accept His offer of eternal life by receiving Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

    Ok, there you have it. If that's not enough for you, there is no way I can win this debate with you. You can carry your arguments agaisnt God forever, and nothing I can say will stop you if you will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell. As many as received Him to them gave He the power to become the Sons of God. He's knocking on your door, why not open to Him and receive Him as your Saviour while you can still believe God loves you?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    The analogy of a parents love for it's child is insufficient for descibing God's love for us. A better anology would be for a parent to honestly love the person who had murdered their child.
    Ah, ok. I can accept that. God loves us no matter how badly we sin, and even though we might wind up in hell for that sin, it doesn't mean at all that God doesn't love us. He is simply administering justice in order to separate good from evil, and the fact that he administers such justice doesn't suggest at all that he isn't good or that he doesn't love us. God is always just, and he always loves us, even when he has to administer harsh justice because of our sin.

    I don't see that any of that disagrees with the terms and conditions I've offered (and in fact agrees quite well), so unless you say differently, I will assume they are satisfactory. Is that ok?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ah, ok. I can accept that. God loves us no matter how badly we sin, and even though we might wind up in hell for that sin, it doesn't mean at all that God doesn't love us. He is simply administering justice in order to separate good from evil, and the fact that he administers such justice doesn't suggest at all that he isn't good or that he doesn't love us. God is always just, and he always loves us, even when he has to administer harsh justice because of our sin.

    I don't see that any of that disagrees with the terms and conditions I've offered (and in fact agrees quite well), so unless you say differently, I will assume they are satisfactory. Is that ok?
    well......that all sounds pretty good and reasonable, but before I say we are in agreement,
    Let me ask you one question to see if we are on the same page....well, two questions which really go together as one question:

    If you die today, are you sure your sins are forgiven and you are going to heaven? Have you admitted you are a siinner who deserves to die and have believed wholeheartedly that God the Son, the Son of God, paid for your life with His own blood, paid for your sins, and rose from the grave bodily and you have received Him as your Saviour?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    If you die today, are you sure your sins are forgiven and you are going to heaven? Have you admitted you are a siinner who deserves to die and have believed wholeheartedly that God the Son, the Son of God, paid for your life with His own blood, paid for your sins, and rose from the grave bodily and you have received Him as your Saviour?
    Since you've been honest and forthright in your replies, let me return it by answering your questions in this way:

    When I was nine years old, I walked to the front of our little Southern Baptist church and confessed my sins before God and the congregation, and accepted the gift of Christ's salvation that he paid for by sacrificing himself on the cross and rising again in power and glory, offering redemption for all of mankind. A week later I was baptized in the Guadalupe River in Ingram, Texas before God and man, by Pastor James Boring (Brother "B" we called him).

    Having said that, as an adult, a wide gulf has grown in my mind between the person I was then and the person I am now.

    With all due respect, that is all I wish to say about it at this time.

    So, are we in agreement on the terms and conditions?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Dionysus,

    You have been patient and hung in there responding kindly when I have not been very agreeable, so I think you will bear with me a little longer and try to see a bit of humor in my opening question in this post, and take it well in this letter carefully written to you.

    Why do I always have the feeling that you are setting things up as trick questions? If you have an argument which you think holds up against the OP, please state it. If not, please say that you agree with the OP. You seem to be trying to convince me that I agree with on everything. In order for that to be true, you must agree with the OP.

    I don't know what happened to you, but if you do not now believe that Jesus is God and He is bodily risen from the dead, you never did. Once you truly believe on Him and recieve Him as your Saviour, you can't stop believing. If you have stopped believing, the belief you once had was form of head knowledge in which you thought it good to go through prescribed motions; a head knowledge that never took root in your heart, was never the Living God in you. You can't get saved and then make yourself unsaved.

    I have debated and argued long hours with people who say pretty much the same things as you about your background, people who show pretty much the same understanding of the teachings of the Bible. I found it is a waste of time becaue once a person's mind is made up that they are not really changed by the gospel, they won't be changed no matter how much and how well I argue in favor of the new life from God which He promses will remain forever with Him, by Him, and for Him. If you are holding your hand up in a "halt" position saying "no" to Jesus Christ, so you cannot walk in faith with the resurrected Saviour, that's you and that's your postiion and you are entitled to keep it. People generally take that position for basically one reason: pride.

    I was much like you for a long time, a vastly different person than who I for years appeared to be after I first believed on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and received Him as my Saviour. Things happened, I became bitter toward God and not realizing my error in attitude, I wandered farhter and farther away from the path of carrying my cross to follow Jesus through death into eternal life. People who knew me during those years laughed when I said I was a Christian. But I never stopped believing, simply because nothing in life or in the world makes any sense if the gospel is not true. Eventually, after I had almost destroyed myself, I begged God to take me out of this messed up world by giving me the major stroke or heart attack my wild ways had piled up in store for me. He did not do as I asked, and the same as when I first fell down at His feet and asked Him to save me, I again fell at His feet and surrendered my life to Him. Now I seek to be with Him, like Him, for Him, by Him, in Him, wholeheartedly and I thank Him for His patience and mercy every day. I suffer still from my erroneous ways, my loved ones got hurt by me a lot and they too are paying for how the things I did affected them, but I know I am forgiven and I am willing to accept any punishment the Lord has for me. I trust in what He did for me, that I am forgiven. I warn people not to be stupid and do the things I have done and bring the kinds of troubles on themselves that I brought on myself and my family. I know I deserve to die and burn in Hell right now, I know I do not deserve to breath God's air, and I know He delights to show His goodness and mercy to all who will trust in Him. I"m fully trusting Him now and my only plea is that He gave His lifes blood to save me from Hell. I wish I could go back and fix all my mistakes and undo all the horrible things I did, but I cannot. I warn others not to do what I have done. I'm paying for it under my father's discipline, I am being punished for what I have done, but I know also that I am forgiven and my full punishment was taken by God Himself in Jesus Christ and I don't have to suffer in Hell because He lives in me. He is my life.

    I don't know where you really are, but I know where you are really supposed to be. "Be ye holy, for I am holy, saith the LORD" "turn at my reproof and I will pour out my Spirit to you. I can't tell you how many times I longed for somebody to tell me the things I am telling you now after I became embittered toward God and wandered around like God didn't really care.

    If you are saved, you need to start acting and talking like it. If you are not saved, and your heart is hardened agaisnt God, you need to repent and believe on the Lord jesus Christ and receive Him in reality before it's too late.

    ---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

    always have the feeling that you are setting things up as trick questions? If you have an argument which you think holds up against the OP, please state it. If not, please say that you agree with the OP. You seem to be trying to convince me that I agree with on everything. In order for that to be true, you must agree with the OP.

    I don't know what happened to you, but if you do not now believe that Jesus is God and He is bodily risen from the dead, you never did. Once you truly believe on Him and recieve Him as your Saviour, you can't stop believing. If you have stopped believing, the belief you once had was form of head knowledge in which you thought it good to go through prescribed motions; a head knowledge that never took root in your heart, was never the Living God in you. You can't get saved and then make yourself unsaved.

    I have debated and argued long hours with people who say pretty much the same things as you about your background, people who show pretty much the same understanding of the teachings of the Bible. I found it is a waste of time becaue once a person's mind is made up that they are not really changed by the gospel, they won't be changed no matter how much and how well I argue in favor of the new life from God which He promses will remain forever with Him, by Him, and for Him. If you are holding your hand up in a "halt" position saying "no" to Jesus Christ, so you cannot walk in faith with the resurrected Saviour, that's you and that's your postiion and you are entitled to keep it. People generally take that position for basically one reason: pride.

    I was much like you for a long time, a vastly different person than who I for years appeared to be after I first believed on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and received Him as my Saviour. Things happened, I became bitter toward God and not realizing my error in attitude, I wandered farhter and farther away from the path of carrying my cross to follow Jesus through death into eternal life. People who knew me during those years laughed when I said I was a Christian. But I never stopped believing, simply because nothing in life or in the world makes any sense if the gospel is not true. Eventually, after I had almost destroyed myself, I begged God to take me out of this messed up world by giving me the major stroke or heart attack my wild ways had piled up in store for me. He did not do as I asked, and the same as when I first fell down at His feet and asked Him to save me, I again fell at His feet and surrendered my life to Him. Now I seek to be with Him, like Him, for Him, by Him, in Him, wholeheartedly and I thank Him for His patience and mercy every day. I suffer still from my erroneous ways, my loved ones got hurt by me a lot and they too are paying for how the things I did affected them, but I know I am forgiven and I am willing to accept any punishment the Lord has for me. I trust in what He did for me, that I am forgiven. I warn people not to be stupid and do the things I have done and bring the kinds of troubles on themselves that I brought on myself and my family. I know I deserve to die and burn in Hell right now, I know I do not deserve to breath God's air, and I know He delights to show His goodness and mercy to all who will trust in Him. I"m fully trusting Him now and my only plea is that He gave His lifes blood to save me from Hell. I wish I could go back and fix all my mistakes and undo all the horrible things I did, but I cannot. I warn others not to do what I have done. I'm paying for it under my father's discipline, I am being punished for what I have done, but I know also that I am forgiven and my full punishment was taken by God Himself in Jesus Christ and I don't have to suffer in Hell because He lives in me. He is my life.

    I don't know where you really are, but I know where you are really supposed to be. "Be ye holy, for I am holy, saith the LORD" "turn at my reproof and I will pour out my Spirit to you. I can't tell you how many times I longed for somebody to tell me the things I am telling you now after I became embittered toward God and wandered around like God didn't really care.

    If you are saved, you need to start acting and talking like it. If you are not saved, and your heart is hardened agaisnt God, you need to repent and believe on the Lord jesus Christ and receive Him in reality before it's too late.

    ---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

    At least one of my old buddies I have known since my early teens, still friends after forty years, went through the same motions as you did in a Baptist church. I was there when he went forward, went through the snners prayer for salvation, and got baptized as a public profession of his faith. It was nothing but a momentary rationale of believing the gospel is true and it is best to go along with it's message. It was all him, it was all about what he did. He didn't really believe on Jesus, he didn't really get saved. Today he is pretty strongly a hinduistic pagan, though to him it's only living a normal life doing the best he can for himself and his family. Now he openly makes a mockery by saying "I got saved".....makes a mockery of the whole thing, calls himself a fool for letting himself go along with it and get baptized. An awesome guy, karate champion, oldest boy is 3rd degree black belt, built like Bruce Lee and the last guy anybody would want to pick a fight with. I have other friends like him, who have had close contact with the gospel message and gone their own way believing things they can't be sure of but things that make them feel better about death; two of them tenderly stood by their fathers and watched them breath their last, and then they say their fathers showed them how to die. God wants us to live forever and we can in Jesus Christ, but if you have decided it is not possible for you to know this then you will never know it. I'm sorry. I have enough friends and family breaking my heart as they are dying. I don't want to argue with you.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Thank you for your comments.

    Ok, now that we've come to an understanding, we can begin the debate proper.

    Jesus said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Also, there is the sin that is so wicked that, if committed, there is no forgiveness - blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

    Reading this, I get the very strong sense that God recognizes different degrees of good and evil. Some things are more good than others, and some things are more evil than others. After all, expressing the greatest love (by sacrificing oneself for their friend) clearly reads like one of the best good acts that can be committed. Conversely, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is one of the worst evils, since it cannot be forgiven.

    Would you agree with this? (If it's ok, please try to limit your answer to "yes" or "no" for now)

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Thank you for your comments.

    Ok, now that we've come to an understanding, we can begin the debate proper.

    Jesus said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Also, there is the sin that is so wicked that, if committed, there is no forgiveness - blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

    Reading this, I get the very strong sense that God recognizes different degrees of good and evil. Some things are more good than others, and some things are more evil than others. After all, expressing the greatest love (by sacrificing oneself for their friend) clearly reads like one of the best good acts that can be committed. Conversely, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is one of the worst evils, since it cannot be forgiven.

    Would you agree with this? (If it's ok, please try to limit your answer to "yes" or "no" for now)
    Yes.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Ok,

    In debates of this kind, as I’m sure you’ve experienced, it is very common for people to assert that God must be evil because of suffering in the world. For example, they say that God must be evil because he allows children to be murdered or for tornadoes to injure and/or kill people.

    Evil acts that people consciously inflict on one another are typically called “moral evils” (because it takes a moral agent - or person - to commit the acts). Other evils that simply happen to people, such as accidents or natural disasters, are typically called “natural evils” (because they happen whether people like it or not).

    Both of these types of "evil" are typically regarded as such because they inflict suffering upon the world.

    Generally speaking, atheists/agnostics tend to view such suffering as unnecessary. That is to say, because they can see no good reason why a just, all-knowing, and all-powerful God would allow people to harm one another or to be harmed by forces beyond their control, they hold that God is evil. This is usually expressed in a way something like this:

    ‘Because there is unnecessary suffering in the world, either God doesn’t exist, or he does exist and he is wicked.’

    These things, lumped together, are generally referred to as “The Problem of Evil and Suffering in the World”.

    The Christian answers to these problems tend to be something like the following -

    Regarding Moral Evil:

    ‘God does not interfere with moral evils in this world because he has granted humanity the gift of free will, and people must be allowed to follow their hearts and do as they will. God prefers that no one sin, but he will not prevent them from being able to sin, because then people would not be acting according to their own free will, and the choices they make would have no moral value. So, in order to sustain the greater good (which is the ability of humanity to make the choice to accept salvation), God does not interfere with moral evils.

    Moreover, because God is just, he will one day administer justice to people who have committed moral evils. So, even though these things are allowed to take place now, one day they will be reconciled, but on GOD’S timeline, not OURS. So, in order to support the greater good, God allows these things to happen until the appropriate time comes to stop them, according to HIS plan and HIS will.’

    Regarding Natural Evil:

    ’Natural evil in the world is the product of human sin. The world before Original Sin was free of corruption, and therefore aging, disease and natural disasters did not exist. However, when Adam and Eve made the choice to sin, they introduced evil into the world, and the natural evil we see today is simply the effects of that sin. So it is not God that created these things. Rather, it is the choice of man to rebel against God that caused them to come into existence.’

    Generally speaking (and without getting hung up on minute details), would you agree with the Christian responses to the Problem of Evil and Suffering in the World as I’ve represented them?

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    I'm a bit obsessed about trying to get people to see they need to be saved from Hell.
    Wouldn’t it be more effective to be Christ’s living example? This approach seems more logical, to me at least. That is, “put on the Christ mind.” If we put on the Christ mind, (going through the process) I don’t think hell is much of an issue.

    The reasoning I am using to explain the necessity of Hell is I think pretty clearly stated in the OP. Physical death is a process in time counting down to finality.
    Yes, I understand your opinion. However, I'm not sure your view of finality is God’s ultimate view of finality. Also, what we think finality means from a human perspective, may actually have different levels.

    The corruption of death shows the corruption of our souls, in that we at heart have fallen into imperfection. Only perfection is fit for eternal life. If we are not perfected, we will remain as we are; corrupt. Because of our corruption, we cannot be immortal.
    Human imperfection hasn’t seemed to stop God from working through man while man is living his life. This seems to be part of the purpose of creation, for God to work and share his gifts and wonders through nature and through man. So perhaps your view of imperfection is somewhat imperfect. This doesn’t mean God’s not interested in the soul's immorality – but it could mean that he doesn’t require a perfect vehicle to fulfill his purpose for creation.

    He can and will save us from death if we will believe He can and if we will come into agreement with Him about our need to be saved from Hell.
    Personally, I think belief is only a preliminary step. A mental shift is an important crucial first step in the process, but God is not mocked. Mental shifts are just that – a mental shift. I think it takes more then belief to change the equation of life and direction of a soul.

    He wants you to know His mercy and compassion for you
    Personally, I think a reasonable and practical way to know the mercy and compassion of God is to emulate the example of the Son and see if it works. We have some good examples to study here. This process allows us to test the theory or mercy and compassion and use our reasoning ability to experience it and experiment with it. And if it’s the real thing, the results should yield some positive results. Again, this approach is not just about a blind and fear-based belief of hell – it’s about putting on the Christ mind which incorporates our reasoning faculties.

    If we can really understand that God loves us, we can admit without fear or anger that we deserve to die and burn in Hell, and in fear of being found suspicious by God, we admit our guilt of breaking His law and hope in His mercy. "Lord be merciful to me, a sinner", is the prayer of a person who God can justify in eternal life. It is an admission of guilt for things worthy of death and eternal separation from God in Hell because the sinner has sinned againt God, broken His perfect law, and deserves no mercy. God wants to show mercy to us but He cannot if wie will not trust Him to save us before our death is finalized.
    Empty words of guilt because of fear can just be empty words of guilt. It’s a process for the soul to go from “I’m sorry for my actions” to a new man. Where that process is worked out is up to the Law of God. But, speaking of hell since your OP is about hell, just like heaven may have “many mansions,” I think hell probably has different levels also. This seems logical to me because there are so many different types of human mentalities and levels of separation from God.

    Because it hurts. Have you never suffered pain?
    Are you aware that some people find peace in pain and suffering? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,”

    Transition from what to what? Do you think you can stop being what you are by going through the end of your time being counted down to the finality of death?
    No, but I don't think a blind mental belief paints the whole picture before physical death.

    You already have a one way ticket on the train of death,
    I think there is a greater enemy. Death and what can kill us should not be feared.

    Ummmmm...try asking that question to the next guy you see grimmacing while he is being held as hostage by ISIS waiting for them to but his head off like a butcher dismembering a cow.
    There have been ISIS types and worse on this planet for a very long time. The only difference today is that our instant communication systems makes us all aware of evil acts almost immediately, verses in the past when such events took decades before they were written about in history books. And just as before when such acts were more of a norm, I don’t think this type of evil defines the magnanimous wonders of God’s creation on this planet.

    Death is due because of corruption. It's in our blood, it's in our genes.
    That hasn’t stopped God (the Spirit) from working through/in man throughout the ages through today. It didn’t stop his Spirit to inspire you to save that person from the burning car. God doesn’t require perfection for his Spirit to work in the physical world. But the Spirit does seem to require a willing heart. “… so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. “

    People will be people. Evil always tries to dominate over good,
    That’s because evil cannot exist without good – it has no source. Thus it has to dominate in order to make sure it steals what it needs to exist.

    and that's why we have things like ISIS in the world today, that's why Hitler rose to power, that's why the evil Crusades were used to stop the Muslim attempt to conquer Europe during that time.
    We get things like ISIS, Hitler’s, Stalin’s, Lenin’s, etc. when responsible and good men fail to act. Evil has no lasting power unless it is fed. If we stop feeding our body, we will die. If we stop feeding evil, it loses its power over us. It’s a very basic equation; what we feed grows; what we starve dies.

    God is going to put an end to all corruption.
    There is an equation that seems to sustain life and I do believe when/if that equation is altered to the degree that the Spirit of the Lord can no longer work through the equation of life, then the reset button is hit. We can observe this throughout the ancient world. And that, in itself, is probably the mercy of the law at play.

    God does have physical hands and legs and arms. He also has a body which was pierced by a spear after He gave His life for you. That spear pierced His heart and the water and the blood which gushed out showed how much He loved you,
    And that sacrifice also left us with this wonderful gift and agency of the Holy Spirit (other cultures call it by other names) which does not have hands and feet, btw, but it can and does work through you and me. The Spirit can and does make this world and life quite bearable.

    that He died of a broken heart for you trying to save you frrom Hell. His hands and feet were pierced by nails for you, He took your place in death to save you from Hell, so if you will believe on Him and receive Him as your Saviour
    Yes, he is my Savior. But that sacrifice also bought man some time. Necessary time. How much time? I don’t know. But so far it’s been about 2000+ years and many are still here trying to assimilate Christ beyond just a mental construct exercise of belief.

    Yes God gave man dominion over the Earth, but man reclused himself of that dominion when he broke God's law and became corrupt.
    I don’t think that was an option. Man has intermingled with his community as well as tended to his environment as best he can for a very long time. He’s also messed up his environment, reaping the consequences of those actions along the way.

    Only God can fix it and He will have it forever fixed the way He inteneded it to be when He created it.
    Or . . . God can work through man to help fix it – since the Holy Spirit has no hands and feet. Then it becomes a win/win. God maintains the platform of creation for his purpose and man partners up with God. It’s probably advisable that we continue to be wise and responsible stewards for this physical platform that we have been given dominion over. I think the Spirit of God enjoys working through creation when we are willing to bring it in as a partner. Can you think of a better partner to work with to help solve problems that we think are unsolvable?

    God won't get us out of all our jams except by taking us out of this world.
    Actually, taking his advice (teaching) and putting on the Christ mind while we are still living in this world can be quite effective in getting us out of jams and it also helps us to realize how silly it is to blame God for evil in our world.

    The Creator made us in His image and His likeness because He loves to give life, He delights in the company of beings who are like Him.
    Right, and this is one reason why this world is a wonderful place despite the fact that not everyone wants to be like God.

    Yes He observes the natural process of death, and it grieves Him and He is not going to sit back and watch it forever.
    Sin no doubt displeases the Lord, but I don’t think he allows sin to re-define his purpose and objective for creation.

    I'm only being realistic about death.
    My view on this idea and your OP is that if we are realistic about a life in Christ while we are alive, death takes care of itself – nor is it a big deal.

    As a norm, people will not allow God to intervene. God wants to own people forever giving them all things in His kingdom of heaven, and most people are afraid to give up there temporal pleasures of self-induced rewards.
    I agree. But bear in mind if people are not psychologically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually prepared to work with God, a blind mental shift of belief does not change the equation of their life very much.

    The law of causation brings death, the law of God preserves life.
    The law of God may indeed preserve life but that may not change the principle that “till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
    The Law of Causation can also bring us life because while we are alive and have awareness, and while we are subject to this law, we can change, we can come into alignment with the Law of God that preserves life. And this process happens while we are in the law of causation. Every time we fail, we can choose to get up again, again, and again and we can choose to learn from our mistakes and we can rationally come to realize that we can't do this by ourselves. Causation is a hard taskmaster, but it can be the catalyst that turns a soul to a higher purpose.

    Hell is not on earth.
    We would like to think so. But that may not be the case for some people who live in mental and emotional torture day and night with little relief from man-made drugs.

    The corruption of death rules on earth.
    This seems to be your filter. I tend to observe the world through the lens of “let that mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.” I will not argue against the premise that there is much corruption on the planet and that some are even the walking dead. But just as ”the poor we will always have,” so will we probably always have the walking dead, as long as evil is part of the equation.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 8th, 2015 at 02:22 PM.
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    I will not argue against the premise that there is much corruption on the planet and that some are even the walking dead. But just as ”the poor we will always have,” so will we probably always have the walking dead, as long as evil is part of the equation.[/QUOTE]

    I believe this summary statement of yours supports the OP, showing Hell is a necessary place to confine, contain, and consume evil forever and those who are constrained by it will suffer forever with the smoke of their torments rising as a testimony to the fact that God is righteous in His execution of death. If you want a world with the walking dead forever, you can only find it in Hell and nobody wants you to go there.....well, maybe you do have some enemies who want you to go there, as I do have some enemies who want me to burn in Hell forever, but I am not one of those who wish evil on you or on anybody else. Even Osama Bin Laden could be in heaven now. I really don't know that he is burning in Hell. Maybe he found pardon from God and is now in heaven. I honestly hope he found God's forgiveness, but I honestly doubt that he did and I honestly believe he is getting what he deserves in Hell. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm afraid for Osama that I'm right, and that's just too bad for him. Hopefully nobody wishes evil on you, hopefully you have always smelled like the most beautiful of roses and always will. And hopefully in your world, all of the dying stinky flowers will rot into the ground and become the finest of nutrients for more of the lovely flowers like yourself. May we all be beautiful flowers forever, Amen.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    I believe this summary statement of yours supports the OP, showing Hell is a necessary place to confine, contain, and consume evil forever
    In our world definitions are important. In that definitions are limited in some ways because language in itself is a limited form of communication, I don't think I support or fully understand what you mean by "forever" or "evil". To say hell is a necessary component of the spiritual world in order to contain evil is one thing. To say what or who God's law sends to such a realm and what principles govern such a realm and its visitors is another. But perhaps that's a different issue.

    and those who are constrained by it will suffer forever with the smoke of their torments rising as a testimony to the fact that God is righteous in His execution of death.
    You might want to start a thread (if you are really interested in hell) and support how you know what principles govern hell. You seem to assume quite a bit about this place that you want to tell people about.
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    I will not argue against the premise that there is much corruption on the planet and that some are even the walking dead. But just as ”the poor we will always have,” so will we probably always have the walking dead, as long as evil is part of the equation.
    I believe this summary statement of yours supports the OP, showing Hell is a necessary place to confine, contain, and consume evil forever and those who are constrained by it will suffer forever with the smoke of their torments rising as a testimony to the fact that God is righteous in His execution of death. If you want a world with the walking dead forever, you can only find it in Hell and nobody wants you to go there.....well, maybe you do have some enemies who want you to go there, as I do have some enemies who want me to burn in Hell forever, but I am not one of those who wish evil on you or on anybody else. Even Osama Bin Laden could be in heaven now. I really don't know that he is burning in Hell. Maybe he found pardon from God and is now in heaven. I honestly hope he found God's forgiveness, but I honestly doubt that he did and I honestly believe he is getting what he deserves in Hell. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm afraid for Osama that I'm right, and that's just too bad for him. Hopefully nobody wishes evil on you, hopefully you have always smelled like the most beautiful of roses and always will. And hopefully in your world, all of the dying stinky flowers will rot into the ground and become the finest of nutrients for more of the lovely flowers like yourself. May we all be beautiful flowers forever, Amen.[/QUOTE]

    You sure seem to be a big Bible thumper, why don't you quote Jesus in the many places He spoke of Hell? Do you not believe the Bible which you were qouting from as the authority for your arguments? If you don't beleive what Jesus said about Hell, then you have negated the supporting references of all of your Bible quotes by saying the Bible is an unreliable source.

    Without directly quoting the Bible, as are you, I have logically shown the necessity of Hell and you have supported the assertion of the OP by conceding that we will have the walking dead with us as long as their is evil in the world. In saying this, you are in total agreement with the OP as to why Hell is necessary as the place where evildoers will untilmately be confinend and all of their evildoings will be consumed in the fire and the smoke of thier torments will testify to the righteousness of God in punishing evil. I stand by the OP, and take your sugesstion for me to abandon the topic of the OP and start a different discussion about Hell as your concession that you have no valid argument against the OP.

    I believe that you are the one who wishes to abandon the OP, and in that desire you show you are unable to refute it and I have won this debate. Condolences.



    "the poor we will always have," so will we probably always have the walking dead, as long as evil is part of the equation."
    Here the word "evil" is used in an arugment used to refute the OP, and then later the person who used this word in refutation of the OP declares my usage of the same word to be obscure in meaning. Therefore I am requesting the accuser who says I am using the word in an undefined way to define the word for me, since the accuser seems to know what they mean when they use the word in their refutaion of the OP.

    This same person also requested a definition of the word "forever". If the word "forever" is too difficult to understand, then I am forever done with this argument.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    I'd just like to point out that my asshole is a necessary place, but it can also be used in a derogatory manner. The two are not mutually exclusive. As Satan in South Park might say, you cannot have good without evil so it must be good to be evil sometimes. Of course, it should also be pointed out, not all religions have a hell, so your argument is very specific to certain religions. Therefore, none of this can be argued as universal truths.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Ib,

    Your bold usage of vulgarity puts you immediately on my ignore list. I didn't even read your post once I saw what kind of tactic you enjoy in arguing, and I will read none of your posts. Maybe by some miracle I will in the future notice that you have had a change of heart, but for now I will let you be as you are on my ignore list for abusive speech.

    God loves you. I have to ignore you or I will make you look like an idiot and you will hate me more than you already show with your foul mouth. Don't hurt yourself any more, ok? and don''t let anybody else hurt you in any way, ok? Have a wonderful life, ok?
    Last edited by GodIsGood; February 9th, 2015 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsGood View Post
    You sure seem to be a big Bible thumper,
    Not generally, unless it’s relevant to a discussion. In that I consider the Bible to be inspired by God, I do not regard it to be inerrant.

    why don't you quote Jesus in the many places He spoke of Hell?
    You are free to start a thread in the religious forum and create an OP regarding your interpretation of the Gospel’s teaching on hell, if you are interested in that topic.

    Without directly quoting the Bible, as are you, I have logically shown the necessity of Hell
    Yes, it was an interesting OP.

    As far as the Bible, if someone asked you to support your argument that hell is necessary to confine evil what would your support be based on?

    The U.S. Constitution?
    The Bible?
    Some other religious text?
    Personal revelation?
    Some type of secular text?
    Scientific studies?

    and you have supported the assertion of the OP by conceding that we will have the walking dead with us as long as their is evil in the world. In saying this, you are in total agreement with the OP as to why Hell is necessary as the place where evildoers
    Yes, I don’t have a problem with the logic that a realm is necessary in the spiritual world to confine unresolved and miss-qualified energy (since energy can't be created or destroyed). But that’s where your philosophical OP stops, though you seem to have made some other statements in this thread that you have not supported and that are just your opinion, which is OK since this is a philosophical debate.

    "The corruption of death shows the corruption of our souls"
    "Death is due because of corruption. It's in our blood, it's in our genes."
    "and those who are constrained by it will suffer forever"

    These statements are your opinion.

    I stand by the OP, and take your sugesstion for me to abandon the topic of the OP and start a different discussion about Hell as your concession that you have no valid argument against the OP.
    You can stand by your OP and I don’t have a problem with its basic premise. But hell being a necessary realm to confine evil is a just one premise in and of itself.

    For example I could make the argument: In a free society that is governed by the U.S. Constitution where human rights are protected, prisons or confinement of some sort, are necessary for those who violate and break the laws; and then I would lay out my case to support my position. That argument does not support who goes to prison, the policies of prison, what is the criteria for a crime to go to prison and what criteria would be used to pardon someone from in prison, to name just a few details that would not be supported in my argument about the necessity of prisons. It just supports that prison (or confinement of some sort) is necessary for those who break the laws in a free society where human rights are protected.

    Therefore I am requesting the accuser who says I am using the word in an undefined way to define the word for me,
    This is your OP and your use of the word evil. It’s for you to define, if you wish.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 9th, 2015 at 01:57 PM.
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    Re: Hell is a necessary place, not a word to be used as a profanity.

    Hi God is Good, welcome to ODN. Can you expound on what you mean by "necessary?" Do you mean necessary in the philosophic sense, or in the more colloquial sense (as in it is beneficial or important)?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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