Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 92
  1. #21
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    ...and I think it's absolutely pointless and idiotic.
    Looks like a subjective opinion. Lol. And arguing that something is not worth debating is an argumentative fallacy.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    1,926
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And here's a link to a nice chart showing that the labor force participation rate has continued to decline since Obama took office: https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2014...on-rate-going/
    "...there has been a downward trend since the year 2000" (your support)

    Does it take into account the decrease in government employment?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by FREUND
    ...and I think it's absolutely pointless and idiotic. Hard-nose conservatives who disliked the President from day one claim that his presidency is a failure. Hard-nose liberals defend the President no matter what. Then a President is elected from the opposite party and the cycle begins again, only now the hard-nose conservatives are defending 'their' President no matter what and hard-nose liberals claim that the Presidency is a failure. No meaningful discussion ever takes place because it's all about the BS 'standards' used to 'grade' a President (even though Presidents don't get grades, they get elected) without the benefit of hindsight.
    That position is of course undermined by the criticisms by conservatives of Bush's bailing out of the banks at the end of his last term and decrying his "abandoning the free market to save it" approach.

    So far, conservatives have had their grades of their own presidents lowered because of bad policy.. as opposed to blindly supporting everything simply because an "R" was in front of the name.
    Waiting to see something similar from libs.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  4. #24
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Looks like a subjective opinion. Lol.
    ...and? There is obviously a time and place for opinion, it's just not when you are trying to argue that the President has 'failed'.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    And arguing that something is not worth debating is an argumentative fallacy.
    That's not what I'm arguing. I do find value in evaluating Presidents. Where I don't find any value is in giving Presidents arbitrary 'grades' in lieu of actual analysis, and doing so without benefit of hindsight. It's lazy.

    You are arguing that "Obama's is A Failed Presidency", but instead of outlining a metric by which we can evaluate whether or not that statement is accurate (i.e. formulating a proper argument), you simply dive into talking points. That's not hard to do. I can easily search for articles that confirm my viewpoint and post them as you have. The problem with that is that it is a textbook example of confirmation bias and you end up with the ODN version of Fox News or MSNBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    So far, conservatives have had their grades of their own presidents lowered because of bad policy.. as opposed to blindly supporting everything simply because an "R" was in front of the name.
    Waiting to see something similar from libs.
    This is wishful thinking. I know plenty of 'liberals' who aren't all that happy with Obama. His approval rating isn't very high, you know. I agree with you on one point though, we should absolutely wait for the Presidency to be over for a while before evaluating it.

  5. #25
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    I do find value in evaluating Presidents. Where I don't find any value is in giving Presidents arbitrary 'grades' in lieu of actual analysis, and doing so without benefit of hindsight.
    It isn't arbitrary. I looked at areas the President is responsible for according to the Constitution, such as diplomatic relations with foreign nations. They are generally in the toilet under Obama's watch. And as head of his party, there is all kinds of evidence that Obama has failed to get national, state and local democrats elected or re-elected. They just got creamed in the last elections. None of that is chosen or graded arbitrarily.

    And there is nothing wrong with doing such an assessment before Obama leaves office. I'm certain other federal employees get periodic evaluations during their employment all the time. There is no reason to exempt the President. Periodic grading is pervasive in our workplaces and schools. You just want to make a special exception for Obama.

    Participate or don't. But I'll ignore your complaints from here forward.
    Last edited by evensaul; March 15th, 2015 at 09:00 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #26
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by FREUND
    This is wishful thinking. I know plenty of 'liberals' who aren't all that happy with Obama. His approval rating isn't very high, you know. I agree with you on one point though, we should absolutely wait for the Presidency to be over for a while before evaluating it.
    Well, I agree it is wishful thinking But, I do not know libs who are as furious with Obama over anything as much as Conservatives were over Bushes bailouts. But, maybe that is because Obama hasn't betrayed liberal values as badly. Obama didn't suddenly go Small gov, or overly transparent or suddenly hawkish on terrorism over night.
    I am sure that Obama has done things that not all libs "like", but I suspect it to be more on the line of not being extreme enough for them or something. (I honestly don't know, because all I have really seen is defense of Obama no matter what, and spin spin spin.

    As to waiting, we have enough track record to intelligently speculate, and give initial grades. I certainly don't agree with the idea that we don't have a sufficient sample size. Especially considering Obama is pretty much a lame duck at this point. However, there is truth to saying we won't know what history says about him until we are all dead. (as Bush pointed out about himself) But as I recall, Bush said that because everyone was fixated on asking him directly what his greatest mistake was, what was his greatest regret as president (you know with 3 more years to go and all). So I do find the double standard so strong as to be pungently disgusting.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  7. #27
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    It isn't arbitrary. I looked at areas the President is responsible for according to the Constitution, such as diplomatic relations with foreign nations. They are generally in the toilet under Obama's watch. And as head of his party, there is all kinds of evidence that Obama has failed to get national, state and local democrats elected or re-elected. They just got creamed in the last elections. None of that is chosen or graded arbitrarily.
    The grading system itself is arbitrary until you define what it means to 'Pass' and 'Fail', which you have not done.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    And there is nothing wrong with doing such an assessment before Obama leaves office. I'm certain other federal employees get periodic evaluations during their employment all the time. There is no reason to exempt the President. Periodic grading is pervasive in our workplaces and schools. You just want to make a special exception for Obama.
    Of course there's nothing wrong with it--you're free to make assessments all day. My point echoes what Ibelsd said above, essentially that I don't think it is wise to assess the success or failure of a Presidency (i.e. once all terms have been completed) while the man is still in office or even shortly thereafter. I said this with President Bush and I would say that for any President.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Participate or don't. But I'll ignore your complaints from here forward.
    You say that a lot around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    I am sure that Obama has done things that not all libs "like", but I suspect it to be more on the line of not being extreme enough for them or something. (I honestly don't know, because all I have really seen is defense of Obama no matter what, and spin spin spin.
    Have you researched it or asked a local 'liberal'? You obviously aren't obligated to go out of your way to research stuff like this--we all have our priorities in life--but if you are truly curious about it, you should look into it and not simply sit back and assume things. National news media probably isn't your best source of information at this point.

  8. #28
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,081
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Can I un-support Sig's claim?
    Give this a read
    http://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obama...uth-behind-it/

    "But now let’s look at the same data, but confine it to just people in their prime working years, aged 25 to 54—the seventh chart. This helps us strip out the surging ranks of older baby-boomers. It also strips out the ranks of those between the ages of 16 and 24, where increasing college attendance has been decreasing employment participation fairly steadily for at least 15 years. Both those groups can skew the numbers.

    So when you look at this prime working-age population, you can see that, after the sharp collapse back in 2008, things have been improving steadily over the last few years, though there’s clearly still a way to go."


    Basically the largest reason participation is dropping is people are retiring and that will continue to happen unless we decide to enslave the elderly in work camps. More people are going to college which is also a good thing. There is obviously some disengagement going on, but engagement has been steadily rising, just as the unemployment rate has been lowering since the first two years he was in office and dealing with the crisis.

    You need to look at lots of numbers to get a well rounded picture of the economy. While unemployment is not the end all be all, neither is the participation rate. The demographics of a country can have a big impact on that.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #29
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by freund
    Have you researched it or asked a local 'liberal'? You obviously aren't obligated to go out of your way to research stuff like this--we all have our priorities in life--but if you are truly curious about it, you should look into it and not simply sit back and assume things. National news media probably isn't your best source of information at this point.
    HAHA.. But they are the only libs I know.

    Anyway, I'm open to correction on it, but it is my current life experience and understanding.. so It's the best I currently have on which to form an opinion.


    --------
    @sig

    It is funny to blame the old for leaving the work force as a reason for this.
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/LNS11324230

    55 and older, there is a huge dip in the 80-90's which included some of the best years of our economy, and then a steady rise where we have basically peaked now and a SMALL downturn has occurred. If that is the "largest reason" currently it is actually a very small movement in the over 55 age.

    But maybe they are the reason, in which case.. why is the number so high to begin with? I'm not posing the question to attack Obama, but it seems that the answer would be relevant if we are going to actually evaluate policy performance. It was drastically lower in the past, and is high now and starting to fall.


    Further

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/LNS11300060

    That is the prime work age, and it's clearly declining, though not dropping off a cliff. Again, why is the number falling? The old are excluded, so that explanation doesn't apply. Also, it is over many years so the "seasonal" answer doesn't apply either. It's also 3-5% so that whole half a % to worry about explanation doesn't fly at all (referring to your links "other half" segment).

    So there does seem to be a problem that hasn't been accounted for in that link (which was pretty interesting btw).
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  10. Thanks Sigfried thanked for this post
  11. #30
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,081
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Mind Trap"
    It is funny to blame the old for leaving the work force as a reason for this.
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/LNS11324230

    55 and older, there is a huge dip in the 80-90's which included some of the best years of our economy, and then a steady rise where we have basically peaked now and a SMALL downturn has occurred. If that is the "largest reason" currently it is actually a very small movement in the over 55 age.

    But maybe they are the reason, in which case.. why is the number so high to begin with? I'm not posing the question to attack Obama, but it seems that the answer would be relevant if we are going to actually evaluate policy performance. It was drastically lower in the past, and is high now and starting to fall.
    Well, the thing of it is, that's kind of a different value. The chart you are showing is how many people over 55 are participating in the workforce.
    But the article I posted was pointing to the fact that there are a higher percentage of people 55+ in the overall population.
    Older people work less than younger people so if there are more older people in the population as a percentage the overall participation rate goes down.

    See here for some charts showing this trend (though they use 65 as the cut off age for their metrics)
    http://www.urban.org/retirement_poli...population.cfm

    I also looked up average retirement age which has been on the rise by a bit. It is currently 62.

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/LNS11300060

    That is the prime work age, and it's clearly declining, though not dropping off a cliff. Again, why is the number falling? The old are excluded, so that explanation doesn't apply. Also, it is over many years so the "seasonal" answer doesn't apply either. It's also 3-5% so that whole half a % to worry about explanation doesn't fly at all (referring to your links "other half" segment).

    The percent of elderly is more critical than their participation rate since their participation rate is dramatically different than younger ages (its around half as much.)

    So there does seem to be a problem that hasn't been accounted for in that link (which was pretty interesting btw).
    The chart you give seems to disagree a bit with the one in the article I posted. Still, it is showing a kind of flat-lining of what was a declining value coming into Obama's presidency. Not great but at least it arrested the crash and historically over 60 years (the range of the chart) its still fairly high. Mind you I think the demographic trend over 60 years is lots of women joining the workforce which is a fundamental shift.

    I think what both left and right can see and can't really argue against is that average wages have been pretty stagnant or declining until just this year.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  12. Likes MindTrap028 liked this post
  13. #31
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I agree it is wishful thinking But, I do not know libs who are as furious with Obama over anything as much as Conservatives were over Bushes bailouts. But, maybe that is because Obama hasn't betrayed liberal values as badly. Obama didn't suddenly go Small gov, or overly transparent or suddenly hawkish on terrorism over night.
    You're kidding - Obama's treatment of Snowden and Manning have been terrible and his continuation of Bush's spying are examples where he failed his campaign promises and failed in his duty to protect individual privacy.

    This is as much a betrayal of liberal values as conservative values. It's unbelievable so few people have called him out on it.

  14. #32
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Well, the thing of it is, that's kind of a different value. The chart you are showing is how many people over 55 are participating in the workforce.
    Well, it isn't how many, but what %. Now your point is relevant about there being more, but over the last 10 years or so, that is probably a muted point.
    I'm honestly not sure how it all shakes out. It just appears to me that even though there are more older people in the population, their participation is very high, and hasn't declined enough to account for what your link says it does.

    I can't attack or defend any further than that, as I really don't have a firm enough grasp on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Older people work less than younger people so if there are more older people in the population as a percentage the overall participation rate goes down.
    Well (again just as I see it), their participation is high if not as a total market share, at least as a historical context among their own group.
    It has flattened statistically, but that could be a good thing. Sooo... not sure what to make of it.


    So many worked a long time ago, then there is a HUGE dip, and then a not so slow rise to current levels.
    Why is it that so few old people (as a % of old people) worked in the 80-90's, and went up as our prosperous years ended.

    Not certain it is a "blame obama" point.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    You're kidding - Obama's treatment of Snowden and Manning have been terrible and his continuation of Bush's spying are examples where he failed his campaign promises and failed in his duty to protect individual privacy.

    This is as much a betrayal of liberal values as conservative values. It's unbelievable so few people have called him out on it.
    Manning?


    What ... Obama's not a Bronco's fan? *J*

    That was me kidding. other than that, no I haven't seen the outcry. The fact that those things are an issue to the left is news to me.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  15. #33
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    The epic failure of Obama to wage successful warfare or otherwise contain militant Islam continues, as Yemen is falling to al-Quaida: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-25-12-20-57

    "Earlier in the day, the rebels seized a key air base where U.S. troops and Europeans had advised the country in its fight against al-Qaida militants. The base is only 60 kilometers (35 miles) away from Aden... The base was crucial in the U.S. drone campaign against Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, which Washington considers to be the most dangerous offshoot of the terror group."
    Last edited by evensaul; March 25th, 2015 at 12:09 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #34
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,081
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The epic failure of Obama to wage successful warfare and contain militant Islam continues, as Yemen is falling to al-Quaida: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-25-12-20-57
    If we waged war in every country with islamic terrorists we'd be involved in WWIII. I'd prefer they attacked an air base where we advised people to that. It is not really feasible or advisable to wage war against insurgents in other countries. We can wage war against other countries, but not factions within them. All we can usually do is offer support of some kind to those countries if they desire it and are amenable to our terms. Yemen has never been any kind of significant ally to us. We closed our embassy there in 2008. Their government has tolerated extremists for quite a while and that's coming home to roost for them.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  17. #35
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Despite all their problems, Yemen has had a democratic republic that was worth preserving, and trying to build on, rather than letting the entire country fall to al-Quaida, as Obama has done. You might claim that it isn't failure, without much support by the way, but you sure can't make an argument that he has succeeded in any way. It's really just another example of Obama's failed foreign policies.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #36
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,081
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Despite all their problems, Yemen has had a democratic republic that was worth preserving, and trying to build on, rather than letting the entire country fall to al-Quaida, as Obama has done.
    What were we supposed to do there? Invade it? Unless we have some alliance and they call for our direct assistance (which generally we don't do) no american president would get involved there. We don't typically interfere in coups and such things unless we are causing them and we are mostly done with that these days.

    How is an american president supposed to stop unrest in an arab country?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #37
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    So you wouldn't support military intervention to prevent militant Islamists from taking over any democratic republic? You'll let Italy fall, if Islamists invade from Libya and Tunisia or if Iran encourages and supports internal rebellion as it has done in Yemen? http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-rome-nex...emists-1820674

    Or is it just Arabs you'd allow to be murdered or otherwise subject to Islamic oppression?
    Last edited by evensaul; March 25th, 2015 at 02:43 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #38
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The epic failure of Obama to wage successful warfare or otherwise contain militant Islam continues
    Pretend you're the No. 1 adviser to the President (you never know Evensaul, it could happen), and you've got his attention: How would you summarize an intelligent, well-thought out strategy for waging successful warfare to contain militant Islam, given the current dynamics of today?
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  21. #39
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    How would you summarize an intelligent, well-thought out strategy for waging successful warfare to contain militant Islam, given the current dynamics of today?
    First and foremost, publicly and consistently identify the enemy as "Militant Islam" and abandon the failed and euphemistic "War on Terror". Then identify those governments (such as in Iran) backing Militant Islamic terrorists and take them out, if necessary. It used to be called The Bush Doctrine.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  22. #40
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    1,926
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First and foremost, publicly and consistently identify the enemy as "Militant Islam" and abandon the failed and euphemistic "War on Terror". Then identify those governments (such as in Iran) backing Militant Islamic terrorists and take them out, if necessary. It used to be called The Bush Doctrine.
    and it failed miserably consuming vast amounts of resources (both blood and treasure) in addition to political capital on the world stage. Saddam wasn't a militant islam.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. You just won the presidency and...
    By Lord Infamous in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: May 8th, 2009, 09:38 AM
  2. Reparations In An Obama Presidency.
    By onalandline in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: November 18th, 2008, 12:22 AM
  3. Obama Presidency and the world.
    By Vandaler in forum International Affairs
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: October 31st, 2008, 10:04 PM
  4. Barack Obama Worthy of Presidency Now?
    By Xanadu Moo in forum Politics
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: March 17th, 2007, 10:25 AM
  5. Bush is a better candidate for the presidency
    By Meng Bomin in forum General Debate
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: November 7th, 2004, 05:39 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •