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  1. #41
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So you wouldn't support military intervention to prevent militant Islamists from taking over any democratic republic? You'll let Italy fall, if Islamists invade from Libya and Tunisia or if Iran encourages and supports internal rebellion as it has done in Yemen? http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-rome-nex...emists-1820674

    Or is it just Arabs you'd allow to be murdered or otherwise subject to Islamic oppression?
    Italy is a pretty strong US ally. If they called for our direct military intervention we would probably offer it. What we wouldn't do however is fight there without being invited to. Yemen has not been an ally of the US, they have intentionally stayed at a distance from us. Democracy is great but it doesn't mean you are an automatic ally of the US. They have called for help from their neighbors (no luck so far) and from the UN (who is meeting to consider action).

    Again, there are islamic insurgencies in a great many nations at the moment, none of them are asking for us to invade to help them with that and if we invaded all of them I think it would be WWIII. Not a good scenario that.

    ---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First and foremost, publicly and consistently identify the enemy as "Militant Islam" and abandon the failed and euphemistic "War on Terror". Then identify those governments (such as in Iran) backing Militant Islamic terrorists and take them out, if necessary. It used to be called The Bush Doctrine.
    Yes because people get really scared when you call them names and use a lot of rhetoric, just like when they call us american pigs we are terrified and cowed. Name calling doesn't do jack to anyone except little kids. It doesn't matter if we call them pink fairies or fartmasters or Wahabi wackos they are going to keep doing what they are doing.

    You have to either apply military force, social change, or political reform. Sometimes economic pressure works but generally not with groups that aren't all that rich to begin with.

    As for the Bush Doctrine, isn't that the guy under who's watch the World Trade Center was destroyed?
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  2. #42
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    As for the Bush Doctrine, isn't that the guy under who's watch the World Trade Center was destroyed?
    It sure was. However you seem to be implying that it has some relevance in the Bush Doctrine.
    What relevance are you implying?
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  3. #43
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Despite all their problems, Yemen has had a democratic republic that was worth preserving, and trying to build on, rather than letting the entire country fall to al-Quaida, as Obama has done. You might claim that it isn't failure, without much support by the way, but you sure can't make an argument that he has succeeded in any way. It's really just another example of Obama's failed foreign policies.
    Anyone can make an argument that he 'failed' or 'succeeded' if we go by your logic because you haven't defined a metric by which to evaluate success or failure. I could make the argument that Obama succeeded in his foreign policy decisions with regards to Yemen because we aren't getting involved in a conflict. I don't have to explain any further just like you don't have to. There isn't any interest in honest evaluation of cause and effect here, only rampant display of confirmation bias and empty, rhetorical hand-waving in lieu of solid argumentation.

  4. #44
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It sure was. However you seem to be implying that it has some relevance in the Bush Doctrine.
    What relevance are you implying?
    I'm implying that the creator of the doctrine in question was not sufficient to keep Americans safe from terrorists and therefore has no claims to excellence beyond Obama's policy which has not resulted in any significant attacks on American territory by foreign powers. it is hard to look at the Bush administration and say they somehow put a lid on Islamic terrorism in the world.

    At its heart the "Bush Doctrine" was that the US should act unilaterally when it feels that is in its best interests despite what allies might think of it. I'm not a big proponent of that but it's not without some merit but I don't see what benefit it is to solving the seemingly wide spread cultural problems in the middle east.

    Of course whatever the Doctrine, Bush made some moves I very much think were not in our best interests regardless of whether other countries agreed with them or not. To me that is not part of his doctrine, more a matter of how he applied it.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm implying that the creator of the doctrine in question was not sufficient to keep Americans safe from terrorists...
    The Bush Doctrine was not in place before 911. It was that night, after the attacks, that Bush went on television addressing the nation, and stated that the United States would make no distinction between the terrorists who flew the planes and the nations that harbored them. A month later, our forces rolled into Afghanistan and removed the Taliban government, because it had supported the 911 attack. That was the original Bush Doctrine, and what I advocate. Don't just defend against "rebels" or "freedom fighters" or even "terrorists". Identify the nation-states giving support to terrorists, and take them down.

    Obama doesn't have such a policy. Instead, he negotiates with governments that sponsor terrorism and will, in a few days, finalize an agreement with Iran that will end up allowing that country to develop nuclear weapons. Obama is the Neville Chamberlain of our time.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Bush Doctrine was not in place before 911.
    If you do some research you will find that it was in use before 911 to refer to Bush's actions during the Kyoto protocol talks earlier that year. you and others may specifically associate it with the the invasion of Iraq and 911 but it was used prior to that date and was used to refer to the administrations unilateral approach to foreign policy. Bush didn't invent the term, it was created by journalists to refer to his administration's policy approach overall.

    That was the original Bush Doctrine, and what I advocate. Don't just defend against "rebels" or "freedom fighters" or even "terrorists". Identify the nation-states giving support to them, and take them down.
    OK, so what nation states are we supposed to be taking down right now and why didn't bush take them down when he was in power?

    Obama doesn't have such a policy. Instead, he negotiates with governments that sponsor terrorism and will, in a few days, finalize an agreement with Iran that will end up allowing that country to develop nuclear weapons. He is the Neville Chamberlain of our time.
    Do you know that the 911 terrorists largely originated in Saudi Arabia and were inspired by Wahhabi Suni Islam which is a product of Saudi Arabia a nation the Bush administration had very close ties with (as does Obama as did Clinton and Reagan etc...)? So if we were really attacking the country that spawned this terrorism it would be them. Thing is, generally they are one of our stronger allies in the region so we don't.

    It really isn't as simple as you make it out to be. For instance, the people taking over Yemen right now are not Al-queda. They are in fact a local tribe allied with the former President of the country for 30 years who embezzled billions of dollars while in office and was ousted in 2012 through a popular uprising during the Arab spring. They may well have Al-queda people working with them, either as mercenaries or fellow idiologs but its really just the people who used to be "democratically elected" fighting against the people that are currently elected.

    So which Yemens do we protect and which Yemens do we kill and how does either one help stop Islamic terrorism?

    There are some folks in the world who are straight up bad guys, ISIS is a group pretty much no one supports at the international level. The Talliban were pretty close to that as well. But the Yemen situation is not really just like that. No one is harboring terrorists here, its an internal struggle between different local power groups with foreign jihadis involved.

    Last I heard an arab coalition was going to step in along with the UN to try and put a stop to the fighting there and support the now ousted government. That is a much better solution I think that the US invading another Arab country. We don't have a good track record of making them peaceful nations when we do that and it only garners us a lot of ill will.

    Afghanistan I still think was a case where we had good cause to act. They had someone who attacked us under their protection and we were going to go in there and take them out regardless. But its not like that in a lot of these situations and wasn't at all like that in Iraq.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First and foremost, publicly and consistently identify the enemy as "Militant Islam" and abandon the failed and euphemistic "War on Terror". Then identify those governments (such as in Iran) backing Militant Islamic terrorists and take them out, if necessary. It used to be called The Bush Doctrine. .
    Take out Iran's government.... as in overthrow? The U.S. has some history in trying to do this with Iran over 50 years ago. I don't think that worked well.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I'm implying that the creator of the doctrine in question was not sufficient to keep Americans safe from terrorists and therefore has no claims to excellence beyond Obama's policy which has not resulted in any significant attacks on American territory by foreign powers.
    so you blaim bush's failure for the 911 attacks? I assume you also blaim Obama for everything that has occured on his watch from day 1 right??

    But lets dig a little deeper instead of using such broad brush strokes. WHY was there a successful attack, WHAT was bushes Mistake?
    I would contend that his mistake up to that point was continuing on the path of presidents before him. Would you agree with that? Or do you think he initiated a new mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    it is hard to look at the Bush administration and say they somehow put a lid on Islamic terrorism in the world.
    Because after 911 we had so many other successful attack on U.S. soil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    At its heart the "Bush Doctrine" was that the US should act unilaterally when it feels that is in its best interests despite what allies might think of it. I'm not a big proponent of that but it's not without some merit but I don't see what benefit it is to solving the seemingly wide spread cultural problems in the middle east.
    That is a fair enough opinion to have.
    I believe that the heart of the "bush Doctrine" is to take terrorist group seriously and treat them as a serious national threat. So serious that those countries that harbor them should not be distinguished from the groups themselves.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    so you blaim bush's failure for the 911 attacks? I assume you also blaim Obama for everything that has occured on his watch from day 1 right??
    My guess is that Sig is simply matching evensaul's rhetoric and tone to illustrate how absurd it is to paint with such broad, black and white strokes.

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  11. #50
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    so you blaim bush's failure for the 911 attacks? I assume you also blaim Obama for everything that has occured on his watch from day 1 right??
    No and no. But Evensaul here, whom I was arguing with seems to blame Obama for the situation in a great many countries that have little or nothing to do with us so if that is his standard he should blame bush for 911 which happened in New York city. Strangely I recognize the limitations of human ability and American power and would neither blame Bush personally for 911 nor Obama for Yemen.

    I noticed however you were quick to attack what you saw as my over reach but gave Evensaul a pass on his.

    Because after 911 we had so many other successful attack on U.S. soil?
    Nope, did we have much during Obama's administration? Nope. Honestly though I think that is due to much heightened security and much better coordination by our law enforcement and intelligence agencies, and a much heightened sense of urgency among them. Not due to invading Iraq or talking tough about terrorists. But during each of theses presidents the middle east itself has been a mess since well before 911.
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  12. #51
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Take out Iran's government.... as in overthrow? The U.S. has some history in trying to do this with Iran over 50 years ago. I don't think that worked well.
    We could take them out as we did with Afghanistan and Iraq. Or we could bomb them back a couple hundred years. Or we may have to do nothing if they know that we would. But Islamists don't seem scared of or even respect Obama. That's a bad place to be, diplomatically.
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  13. #52
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I noticed however you were quick to attack what you saw as my over reach but gave Evensaul a pass on his.
    I would say it is an apples and oranges comparison.

    the 911 attack occurred at the beginning of Bush's presidency and was due more to the previous administrations (all of them) then his own ability to effect the situation (as he didn't have much time to effect the situation). Had the same thing occurred after 6 years of his being in charge, I would agree with you.

    Obama on the other hand has had 6 years+ to effect our relationship with the world, and the war on terror. It is no stretch to hold him responsible for it's present state.

    You make solid points about other democracies, but perhapse a better leader would have been able to persuade them to desire our help... seeing as they sorely need us as an allie.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Nope, did we have much during Obama's administration? Nope. Honestly though I think that is due to much heightened security and much better coordination by our law enforcement and intelligence agencies, and a much heightened sense of urgency among them. Not due to invading Iraq or talking tough about terrorists. But during each of theses presidents the middle east itself has been a mess since well before 911.
    The correct question would be, were we not attacked because of something Obama started, or is it due to something he is continuing.
    I would argue that latter, and point to the "bush Doctrine" as being responsible for that heightened sense of security.

    Lastly, rhetoric matters. If Obama started using the rhetoric of nuke talk in regards to dealing with Russia. You would agree very quickly that words mean things. Lets call Russia evil and deserving of being nuked and test your theory of Name calling not mattering.

    No, calling evil what it is has effects. Calling a serious foe the "JV team" has apparently only emboldened our enemies. So I don't think the evidence is in your favor on this issue.
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  14. #53
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would say it is an apples and oranges comparison.

    the 911 attack occurred at the beginning of Bush's presidency and was due more to the previous administrations (all of them) then his own ability to effect the situation (as he didn't have much time to effect the situation). Had the same thing occurred after 6 years of his being in charge, I would agree with you.
    No, you really wouldn't agree with me because I wouldn't truly blame Bush regardless of when it happens. I blame terrorists and a very long standing policy of America ****ing up peoples countries in their foreign policy without really understanding what they are doing. Its more about the american public and what we vote for out of fear and lack of understanding than any one president.

    But if we are to pick on a president, then Bush is still culpable. It was on his watch, and while the plot started prior the people that committed it were not in country until his presidency so the opportunity to stop the plot was only really available to him and not his predecessors. It really wasn't a matter of foreign policy but one of domestic security.

    The correct question would be, were we not attacked because of something Obama started, or is it due to something he is continuing.
    I would argue that latter, and point to the "bush Doctrine" as being responsible for that heightened sense of security.
    I don't think the bush doctrine as you defined it did jack. What was effective were the security measures we put in place which have caught a number of people trying to cause havoc. Bush should get some props for that, his administration put it together and it worked. Obama has perhaps wisely continued those policies.

    L
    astly, rhetoric matters. If Obama started using the rhetoric of nuke talk in regards to dealing with Russia. You would agree very quickly that words mean things. Lets call Russia evil and deserving of being nuked and test your theory of Name calling not mattering.
    We rattled sabers at Russia for decades and they never stopped spreading communism. It was in fact practical policy and internal realization that their policies didn't work that brought them down. At no point were they pissing their pants out of fear of us. They still aren't.

    No, calling evil what it is has effects.
    I Challenge to support a claim. you to show that calling someone evil has had measurable positive effects in foreign policy by intimidating our enemies.
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  15. #54
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I Challenge to support a claim. you to show that calling someone evil has had measurable positive effects in foreign policy by intimidating our enemies
    I offered the logical support in the previous post. You are of course free to reject it.

    Also, please challenge what I actually said. Your current challenge does not apply to my actual claims. I have a burden to support my claims not your personal application of them.
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  16. #55
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The epic failure of Obama to wage successful warfare or otherwise contain militant Islam continues, as Yemen is falling to al-Quaida: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-25-12-20-57

    "Earlier in the day, the rebels seized a key air base where U.S. troops and Europeans had advised the country in its fight against al-Qaida militants. The base is only 60 kilometers (35 miles) away from Aden... The base was crucial in the U.S. drone campaign against Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, which Washington considers to be the most dangerous offshoot of the terror group."
    I withdraw the above as an Obama administration failure. The recent and ongoing attacks by Saudi Arabia and Egypt against the Iranian surrogates is far preferable to US soldiers getting more deeply involved. I'd much rather the Shiites and Sunnis fight each other. http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-strikes-...035007482.html
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  18. #56
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I offered the logical support in the previous post. You are of course free to reject it.

    Also, please challenge what I actually said. Your current challenge does not apply to my actual claims. I have a burden to support my claims not your personal application of them.
    What logical support? You claimed that talking tough would have an effect did you not? If that is not what you are saying, what are you saying?
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    What logical support? You claimed that talking tough would have an effect did you not? If that is not what you are saying, what are you saying?
    I did indeed say rehtoric has effect. you demanded proof of "positive effects". Which I don't need to argue in order to counter your claim that it does nothing.

    My logical support was in part the hypothetical of if Obama started going round talking about nuking Russia for, and asking you if you supposed Russia would ignore such talk.
    Of course the whole thing assumes BELIEVABLE rhetoric. So I'm not addressing threats that are not believed.
    I would contend that such speak could likely spark a new cold war and is hardly nothing.

    Point being, name calling and rhetoric does effect other nations and how they treat us.

    Let me know if there is anything unclear about that presentation.
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  20. #58
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If you do some research you will find that it was in use before 911 to refer to Bush's actions during the Kyoto protocol talks earlier that year. you and others may specifically associate it with the the invasion of Iraq and 911 but it was used prior to that date and was used to refer to the administrations unilateral approach to foreign policy. Bush didn't invent the term, it was created by journalists to refer to his administration's policy approach overall.
    I don't much care what pundits and observers meant when using the phrase "The Bush Doctrine". What is important to me is what Bush and Cheney meant by it, and I am using their definition.

    On September 11, 2001 in his speech to the nation, Bush said: "We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them." http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44910

    In 2003, Cheney implied that The Bush Doctrine was focused mostly on the removal of governments that supported terrorism, saying
    "If there is anyone in the world today who doubts the seriousness of the Bush Doctrine, I would urge that person to consider the fate of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq... Before 9-11, all too many nations tended to draw a distinction between the terrorist groups and the states that provided these groups with support. They were unwilling to hold these terror-sponsoring states accountable for their actions." http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=28921

    And in his 2010 memoir, Bush described The Bush Doctrine:
    1. "Make no distinction between terrorists and the nations that harbor them--and hold both to account."
    2. "Take the fight to the enemy overseas before they can attack us again here at home."
    3. "Confront threats before they fully materialize."
    4. "Advance liberty and hope as an alternative to the enemy's ideology of repression and fear."

    It isn't rhetoric towards militant Islamists that is important, but a carefully considered and clearly communicated policy, plus the will to follow through effectively. Bush did that, and Obama has failed to do so.
    Last edited by evensaul; March 30th, 2015 at 06:07 PM.
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  22. #59
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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    I remarked earlier how I thought Obama is the Neville Chamberlain of our time. Apparently, I'm not the only one with that impression, though I hadn't read about others saying it. Now, though, someone has written that Obama is far worse, because Chamberlain was doing the best he could from a position of extreme weakness in negotiating with a strong Nazi Germany, and Obama is getting virtually nothing from a position of strength. Interesting reading, for those who care. http://observer.com/2015/03/presiden...eal-with-iran/
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Obama's Is A Failed Presidency

    Obama's Failed Libya Policy Now Threatens Europe

    Libya's Muammar Qaddafi kept millions of Africans from crossing the Mediterranean and flooding into Europe. Obama has admitted that his policy on Libya was a failure because he did not plan for what would happen after Qaddafi was gone. Now we see the consequences of Obama's failures in Libya, Syria and Iraq, as ISIS and other militant Islamists are forcing hundreds of thousands of Africans to flee across the Med, with millions more likely to follow. ISIS operatives could easily cross with the refugees to prepare for attacks against Rome, The Vatican and other European cities.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11139345 (Qaddafi - 2010)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5664552.html (Obama failure admission)
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Secur...video?cmpid=TW (current refugee problem)
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...rom-libya.html (ISIS threat to Europe)
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-in-...eat-to-europe/ (ISIS threat to Europe)
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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