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  1. #1
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    Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Four adult children of same-sex parents have submitted amicus curiae briefs in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals asking that it oppose the legalization of same-sex “marriage."

    The Court, in New Orleans, La., heard arguments on Jan. 9 as it considers whether to uphold traditional marriage – defined as being between one man and one woman -- in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi.

    B.N. Klein, Robert Oscar Lopez, Dawn Stefanowicz, and Katy Faust all grew up with homosexual parents. All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father.

    In her brief, Dawn Stefanowicz described her experience living in a same-sex household.

    “I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief. “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”

    “There was no guarantee that any of my Dad’s partners would be around for long, and yet I often had to obey them,” she said. “My rights and innocence were violated.”

    “As children, we are not allowed to express our disagreement, pain and confusion,” Stefanowicz explained. “Most adult children from gay households do not feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s). Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the children don’t accept their parent’s partner du jour.”

    “I grew up with a parent and her partner[s] in an atmosphere in which gay ideology was used as a tool of repression, retribution and abuse,” B.N. Klein wrote of her experience with a lesbian mother. “I have seen that children in gay households often become props to be publicly displayed to prove that gay families are just like heterosexual ones.”

    Klein said she was taught that “some Jews and most Christians were stupid and hated gays and were violent,” and that homosexuals were “much more creative and artistic” because they were not repressed and were naturally more ‘feeling.’”

    “At the same time I was given the message that if I did not agree (which I did not), I was stupid and damned to a life of punishing hostility from my mother and her partner,” she recounts. “They did this with the encouragement of all their gay friends in the community and they were like a cheering squad. I was only allowed out of my room to go to school. This could go on for weeks.”

    “I was supposed to hate everyone based on what they thought of my mother and her partner,” said Klein. “People’s accomplishments did not matter, their personal struggles did not matter, and their own histories were of no consequence. The only thing that mattered was what they thought of gays.”

    Robert Oscar Lopez who was also raised by a lesbian mother and her partner, had a different experience which he described as the “best possible conditions for a child raised by a same-sex couple.”

    “Had I been formally studied by same-sex parenting ‘experts’ in 1985, I would have confirmed their rosiest estimations of LGBT family life,” Lopez wrote, but then went on to argue against same-sex marriage saying that, “behind these facades of a happy ‘outcome’ lay many problems.”

    He describes experiencing a great deal of sexual confusion due to the lack of a father figure in his life. He turned to a life of prostitution with older men as a teenager.

    “I had an inexplicable compulsion to have sex with older males,” he recounted, saying he “wanted to have sex with older men who were my father’s age, though at the time I could scarcely understand what I was doing.”

    “The money I received for sex certainly helped me financially because it allowed me certain spending money beyond what I earned with my teenage jobs at a pizzeria and in my mother’s [psychiatric] clinic,” he states in the brief. “But the money was not as impactful as the fact that I needed to feel loved and wanted by an older male figure, even if for only as short as a half hour.”

    “As early as ten years ago, I developed a clear stance on homosexual relationships. A civil union or some kind of state recognition would have helped my mother and her partner,” Lopez writes.

    “Yet the traditional marriage laws in New York State as they existed back then prevented my mother and her partner from entirely cutting my father out of my life,” he explained. “The latter reality proved pivotal because my re-establishment of ties to my father in 1998 led to a transition in my life, from being lost and sexually confused to being stable and romantically fulfilled.”

    Katy Faust, who grew up with a lesbian mother and her partner also testified against gay marriage but clarified that “my advocacy against gay marriage and for the rights of children will never include condemnation of my mother and her partner or details about their private lives.”

    “When we institutionalize same-sex marriage,” Faust writes, “we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. In doing so, we ignore the true nature of the outcropping of marriage.”

    “Now we are normalizing a family structure where a child will always be deprived daily of one gender influence and the relationship with at least one natural parent,” she explains, “Our cultural narrative becomes one that, in essence, tells children that they have no right to the natural family structure or their biological parents, but that children simply exist for the satisfaction of adult desires.”

    The 5th Circuit is still considering the legality of state bans on same-sex “marriage” and will issue an opinion in the coming months.

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/laur...-federal-court
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  3. #2
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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Four adult children of same-sex parents have submitted amicus curiae briefs in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals asking that it oppose the legalization of same-sex “marriage."

    The Court, in New Orleans, La., heard arguments on Jan. 9 as it considers whether to uphold traditional marriage – defined as being between one man and one woman -- in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi.

    B.N. Klein, Robert Oscar Lopez, Dawn Stefanowicz, and Katy Faust all grew up with homosexual parents. All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father.

    In her brief, Dawn Stefanowicz described her experience living in a same-sex household.

    “I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief. “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”

    “There was no guarantee that any of my Dad’s partners would be around for long, and yet I often had to obey them,” she said. “My rights and innocence were violated.”

    “As children, we are not allowed to express our disagreement, pain and confusion,” Stefanowicz explained. “Most adult children from gay households do not feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s). Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the children don’t accept their parent’s partner du jour.”

    “I grew up with a parent and her partner[s] in an atmosphere in which gay ideology was used as a tool of repression, retribution and abuse,” B.N. Klein wrote of her experience with a lesbian mother. “I have seen that children in gay households often become props to be publicly displayed to prove that gay families are just like heterosexual ones.”

    Klein said she was taught that “some Jews and most Christians were stupid and hated gays and were violent,” and that homosexuals were “much more creative and artistic” because they were not repressed and were naturally more ‘feeling.’”

    “At the same time I was given the message that if I did not agree (which I did not), I was stupid and damned to a life of punishing hostility from my mother and her partner,” she recounts. “They did this with the encouragement of all their gay friends in the community and they were like a cheering squad. I was only allowed out of my room to go to school. This could go on for weeks.”

    “I was supposed to hate everyone based on what they thought of my mother and her partner,” said Klein. “People’s accomplishments did not matter, their personal struggles did not matter, and their own histories were of no consequence. The only thing that mattered was what they thought of gays.”

    Robert Oscar Lopez who was also raised by a lesbian mother and her partner, had a different experience which he described as the “best possible conditions for a child raised by a same-sex couple.”

    “Had I been formally studied by same-sex parenting ‘experts’ in 1985, I would have confirmed their rosiest estimations of LGBT family life,” Lopez wrote, but then went on to argue against same-sex marriage saying that, “behind these facades of a happy ‘outcome’ lay many problems.”

    He describes experiencing a great deal of sexual confusion due to the lack of a father figure in his life. He turned to a life of prostitution with older men as a teenager.

    “I had an inexplicable compulsion to have sex with older males,” he recounted, saying he “wanted to have sex with older men who were my father’s age, though at the time I could scarcely understand what I was doing.”

    “The money I received for sex certainly helped me financially because it allowed me certain spending money beyond what I earned with my teenage jobs at a pizzeria and in my mother’s [psychiatric] clinic,” he states in the brief. “But the money was not as impactful as the fact that I needed to feel loved and wanted by an older male figure, even if for only as short as a half hour.”

    “As early as ten years ago, I developed a clear stance on homosexual relationships. A civil union or some kind of state recognition would have helped my mother and her partner,” Lopez writes.

    “Yet the traditional marriage laws in New York State as they existed back then prevented my mother and her partner from entirely cutting my father out of my life,” he explained. “The latter reality proved pivotal because my re-establishment of ties to my father in 1998 led to a transition in my life, from being lost and sexually confused to being stable and romantically fulfilled.”

    Katy Faust, who grew up with a lesbian mother and her partner also testified against gay marriage but clarified that “my advocacy against gay marriage and for the rights of children will never include condemnation of my mother and her partner or details about their private lives.”

    “When we institutionalize same-sex marriage,” Faust writes, “we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. In doing so, we ignore the true nature of the outcropping of marriage.”

    “Now we are normalizing a family structure where a child will always be deprived daily of one gender influence and the relationship with at least one natural parent,” she explains, “Our cultural narrative becomes one that, in essence, tells children that they have no right to the natural family structure or their biological parents, but that children simply exist for the satisfaction of adult desires.”

    The 5th Circuit is still considering the legality of state bans on same-sex “marriage” and will issue an opinion in the coming months.

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/laur...-federal-court
    This is so absurd I couldn't stop from laughing while reading this.

    1.) Congratulations, they found four people who hate their parents. 6 million children and adults in the United States right now have an LGBT parent. Come back when you have an actual study, like the one I just linked you to, about the issues with same-sex parents. Oh, by the way, that'll be quite challenging because they don't exist and all of the scientific evidence suggests that they are perfectly fit as parents and typically raise just as healthy, well-adjusted children as heterosexual couples. That's by the APA, by the way. It's the same organization responsible for the DSM, the chief medical diagnostic book used by every psychologist and psychiatrist in the United States and sets the legal definitions of mental illnesses. So when it comes to the studies they've conducted on the matter, I think that they know what they're talking about more than four children of gay families who are poorly adjusted adults. (As we all know, there's no poorly adjusted adults from straight couples, amiright?)


    2.) One person is very angry because their father had a boyfriend, and they had to obey their father's boyfriend? Right, because you know, if you're in a heterosexual relationship where the parents weren't married (or are divorced, as greater than 50% of heterosexual relationships do), then it would be totally different than if they had to obey their step mother or father? Are you kidding me? How is that even in any way resemble an argument? It doesn't, it's just speciously stupid.


    3.) "I had an inexplicable compulsion to have sex with older males."

    ... Really? I think it's pretty explicable: You're gay. God this is so stupid. How does anyone take sh** like this seriously? Here's a better question though: Many men are raised by single mothers. So why don't they all have sex with older males when they're teenagers? I mean, as you know, they're all apparently craving some daddy-loving. Here's a hint: It's probably because they're not gay, and thus have no wish for man-on-man loving. I know, that's a seriously shocking conclusion. #amiright?




    God this is just so dumb. It's nothing more than more fact-free, vacuous emotional-appeals, and non-stop, face-palming stupidity from homophobes trying to suppress the rights of other human beings.
    Last edited by GoldPhoenix; March 15th, 2015 at 01:32 PM.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by GP
    1.) Congratulations, they found four people who hate their parents. 6 million children and adults in the United States right now have an LGBT parent.
    Having a LGBT parent =/= being raised by a same sex couple.
    Sooooo.. no, that stat doesn't support the position you are forwarding. Which is ridiculing the experience of some people as incredulous.
    Funny thing of course, they aren't just giving witness against their specific parents, but the gay community of which they were part of.
    Calling it anecdotal is of course a valid point, but calling it absurd is really not supported, because they are giving testimony of their own life. Surely you aren't calling them liars without evidence?
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
     More than 125,000 same-sex couple households (19%) include nearly 220,000 children under age
    18.
    o More than 111,000 same-sex couples are raising an estimated 170,000 biological, step, or
    adopted children.
    o Same-sex couples who consider themselves to be spouses are more than twice as likely to be
    raising biological, step, or adopted children when compared to same-sex couples who say that
    they are unmarried partners (31% versus 14%, respectively).
    o Same-sex couples raising children are four times more likely than their different-sex
    counterparts to be raising an adopted child. An estimated 16,000 same-sex couples are
    raising more than 22,000 adopted children in the US.
    o Same-sex couples are six times more likely than their different-sex counterparts to be raising
    foster children. Approximately 2,600 same-sex couples are raising an estimated 3,400 foster
    children in the US.
    o More than a quarter of same-sex couples raising children (25.6%) include children identified
    as grandchildren, siblings, or other children who are related or unrelated to one of the
    spouses or partners. Approximately 32,000 same-sex couple households include more than
    48,000 such children.
    The above is the portion of the paper that actually applies to the topic at hand.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Having a LGBT parent =/= being raised by a same sex couple.
    ...what does this have to do with what GP said? The proposition he is forwarding is that 6 million children and adults in the United States right now have an LGBT parent.

    The second bullet of the paper says:

    "...as many as 6 million American children and adults have an LGBT parent."

    Compare that with what GP said:

    "6 million children and adults in the United States right now have an LGBT parent."

    ...and I really can't see the discrepancy you seem to be talking about.

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  8. #5
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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    B.N. Klein, Robert Oscar Lopez, Dawn Stefanowicz, and Katy Faust all grew up with homosexual parents. All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father.
    But it wouldn't, really. Gays don't have to marry in order to raise children - they can do it without marriage. And of course many gays marry and don't care for children so for those particular couples, this issue is completely irrelevant.

    If we so concerned that children are being raised by parents of only one gender, the legislative solution would be to rule that no child shall be raised in a household with parents of only one gender. But then we would have to apply that to single parents as well - rule that no parent can raise a child unless they are involved with a live-in member of the opposite sex.

    And of course such a law would not be good for children. If we remove a child from a one-gender parent household, the child will likely be placed in a worse situation, like a foster home. Certainly it's better for a child to be raised by a single parent or same-sex couple who are actual birthparents than a foster home or institution.

    So this "for the children" argument is a non-starter from the get-go. If a gay person is raising a child, then odds are the best place for that child to be is with the parent who is raising him/her and it's likewise best that the parent is married for that means there is more than one person supporting the child, both financially and emotionally.



    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief. “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”
    But that's not an issue with same-sex households in general unless one can show that such experiences are common. So to use that as a reason to ban gay marriage is clearly to forward the hasty generalization fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “There was no guarantee that any of my Dad’s partners would be around for long, and yet I often had to obey them,” she said. “My rights and innocence were violated.”
    And if the father was a heterosexual womanizer, the situation would be the same. And it can be assumed that if the Father was married, his promiscuity would decrease. So if anything, concerns for promiscuity is a reason for gay marriage, not against it.



    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “As children, we are not allowed to express our disagreement, pain and confusion,” Stefanowicz explained. “Most adult children from gay households do not feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s). Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the children don’t accept their parent’s partner du jour.”
    I will take this person's word about their own experience but if they are going to speak for the larger community of children raised by gays, I will need to see support for the assertion.



    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “I grew up with a parent and her partner[s] in an atmosphere in which gay ideology was used as a tool of repression, retribution and abuse,” B.N. Klein wrote of her experience with a lesbian mother. “I have seen that children in gay households often become props to be publicly displayed to prove that gay families are just like heterosexual ones.”
    Again, statements about children in general need to be supported before they can be considered credible.

    As far as any one person's experience, I can believe that there are bad gay parents out there who completely live up to any anti-gay stereotype that one can imagine because just like straight people, they can range from the horrid to the great. So ONE (or a handful) examples of bad gay parents does not say much about the quality of gay parenting in general (lest we engage in the hasty generalization fallacy).



    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    He describes experiencing a great deal of sexual confusion due to the lack of a father figure in his life. He turned to a life of prostitution with older men as a teenager.

    “I had an inexplicable compulsion to have sex with older males,” he recounted, saying he “wanted to have sex with older men who were my father’s age, though at the time I could scarcely understand what I was doing.”
    The attraction to men was probably because the guy was gay. And again, unless his story of prostitution is at all typical amongst children raised by gays, his choice should not be attributed to the sexual orientation of his parents.



    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “As early as ten years ago, I developed a clear stance on homosexual relationships. A civil union or some kind of state recognition would have helped my mother and her partner,” Lopez writes.
    What? If his sexual issues arose from being raised by two women, then a civil union would have made no difference. Whether his mother and her partner were married or had a civil union, he still would have been raised by two women and if that was the source of his problems, then he still would have had those problems.

    CLEARLY if being raised by two women is what screwed him up, then the solution would be to ensure that he was not raised by two women. His argument is practically incoherent at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “Yet the traditional marriage laws in New York State as they existed back then prevented my mother and her partner from entirely cutting my father out of my life,” he explained.
    What? He seems to be saying that if the mother had married her partner, they could cut the father out. That's not true. And if it were, then the mother could have cut the father out if she had married a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “The latter reality proved pivotal because my re-establishment of ties to my father in 1998 led to a transition in my life, from being lost and sexually confused to being stable and romantically fulfilled.”
    If he was a prostitute as a teenager then the father was re-established when he was in his teens at the earliest and THEN he fixed all of his problems by just being there? I have to say that this testimony does not sound credible.

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    “When we institutionalize same-sex marriage,” Faust writes, “we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. In doing so, we ignore the true nature of the outcropping of marriage.”
    Which is...?


    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Now we are normalizing a family structure where a child will always be deprived daily of one gender influence and the relationship with at least one natural parent,” she explains, “Our cultural narrative becomes one that, in essence, tells children that they have no right to the natural family structure or their biological parents
    Since we allow children to be given up for adoption, it's clear that children do not have a right to the natural family structure or their biological parents. I doubt they ever have.

    And when parents get divorced and one of them takes custody of the child, the child is deprived of two parents of the opposite gender.


    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    but that children simply exist for the satisfaction of adult desires.”
    Someone's going to have to explain that. As far as I know, the motivations for raising children are the same for parents of any sexual orientation.
    Last edited by mican333; March 15th, 2015 at 02:26 PM.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    @DIO
    The distinction is this the OP is talking about people who are raised by same sex couples, or a single same sex parent.

    GP's quoted section is about how many people have a LGBT parent. His number would include people who raised children in a traditional manner, and later "came out". That is why the 6 million is very different than the smaller 200K kids currently being raised in a same sex home.

    So, I'm saying that GP's selected stat is padded and doesn't actually support his point as he presents it. The large 6M figure is used to show that the 4 disgruntled, biased, lying, douchbags are the exception to the otherwise pleasant harmonized well adjusted peoples of the LGBT family unit.

    So.. stat quoted by GP is not people raised in a LGBT home. It is the number of people who just so happen to be related to a LGBT person, and makes no reference to their conditions as children, which is what the OP is discussing.


    Comparison.
    Suppose I was arguing that it is not good to raise a child with a gun in the house,
    and you quoted a stat that said everyone knows of someone with a gun. ...
    Well, knowing someone with a gun is not the same as being raised with a gun in the house. Just one famous person with a gun would skew the stat to irrelevance of the topic.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    I took from his comments that LGBT people are just as capable as straight people in raising kids, and the data seems to support that. Soo... I guess I could see where you were coming from if it were hundreds of thousands of people with LGBT parents pointing to a problem. But so far, it isn't. It's four.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I took from his comments that LGBT people are just as capable as straight people in raising kids, and the data seems to support that. Soo... I guess I could see where you were coming from if it were hundreds of thousands of people with LGBT parents pointing to a problem. But so far, it isn't. It's four.
    And we expect everyone who holds the position of the 4 to be listed in the lawsuit? why?
    We conclude that it is really only 4 in existence? why?

    Both of those seem to be extreme overreach for an argument that could be making a valid point don't you think?

    BTW, only one person complained about prayer in a lawsuit and it was removed around the country. So, relevance of it only being 4 listed?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And we expect everyone who holds the position of the 4 to be listed in the lawsuit? why?
    Did I say that? No. Did I even imply that? No. Saying "I could see where you were coming from if it were hundreds of thousands of people with LGBT parents pointing to a problem" is not the same as saying "I expect that every person who holds the position of the 4 to be listed in the lawsuit".

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    We conclude that it is really only 4 in existence? why?
    Did I say that? No. Did I even imply that? No. Saying "But so far, it isn't. It's four." isn't the same as saying "it is really only 4 in existence". Come on. Be more thoughtful in how you represent what I say. I do go to some length not to distort what you say to me. I expect the same treatment in return.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Both of those seem to be extreme overreach for an argument that could be making a valid point don't you think?
    Yes, if I would have said or suggested anything of the sort, then I think it would be asking a bit much.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    BTW, only one person complained about prayer in a lawsuit and it was removed around the country.
    lol it wasn't one person, MT.

    "With regards to school prayer, Madalyn Murray O’Hair played no role at all — not even a minor one. The decision which prohibited the state from sponsoring specific prayers in public schools was Engel v. Vitale, decided in 1962 by an 8-1 vote. The people who challenged the laws establishing such prayers were a mixture of believers and nonbelievers in New Hyde Park, New York, and O’Hair was not among them."

    http://atheism.about.com/od/churchst...hairprayer.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So, relevance of it only being 4 listed?
    I guess I just don't see the problem. I mean, what IS the problem, as you see it? What did GP propose that you find so very erroneous? Because, so far, I can only see that GP said a thing that aligned exactly with what he offered as support.

    What I got from what he said was, essentially, because there's so many children of LGBT parents, it's odd that appears to be a minority of them that are opposed to gay marriage. What's more, scientific data suggests that LGBT parents are just as fit to raise children as are straight parents, and the minority report from 4 people (one of whom is clearly gay) doesn't seem to undermine this fact.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    The entire OP is really a moot point since marriage is not required to raise children.

    My husband and I have only been legally married for about 5 years. We have two daughters. They are both teenagers (my oldest graduates high school this year). We had them through a surrogate and have been raising them since they were born.

    So for 12 years we raised children without the legal protections of marriage. And had same-sex marriage never become a reality in this country, we still would have been raising our daughters.

    We also are good friends with a couple who have been together for almost 25 years. They have been legally married for 8 years. They have no children, and they have no desire to ever have children.

    The right to marry has never been defined for heterosexuals around "the children". Why would it be for homosexuals?

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Did I say that? No. Did I even imply that? No. Saying "I could see where you were coming from if it were hundreds of thousands of people with LGBT parents pointing to a problem" is not the same as saying "I expect that every person who holds the position of the 4 to be listed in the lawsuit".
    Well, I appologize for getting your point wrong, but it shouldn't be hard to see where I thought you were still referring to the case.
    Of course my point still stands, that we wouldn't be looking to this case or source for that information, and we don't have evidence presented iether way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Did I say that? No. Did I even imply that? No. Saying "But so far, it isn't. It's four." isn't the same as saying "it is really only 4 in existence". Come on. Be more thoughtful in how you represent what I say. I do go to some length not to distort what you say to me. I expect the same treatment in return.
    Well again sorry for not getting your point right, but you seem to be acting as though there are only 4 complaning. IE "so far..."
    so, I'm not trying to distort what your saying.. it just seemed like something else than you apparently mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    lol it wasn't one person, MT.

    "With regards to school prayer, Madalyn Murray O’Hair played no role at all — not even a minor one. The decision which prohibited the state from sponsoring specific prayers in public schools was Engel v. Vitale, decided in 1962 by an 8-1 vote. The people who challenged the laws establishing such prayers were a mixture of believers and nonbelievers in New Hyde Park, New York, and O’Hair was not among them."

    http://atheism.about.com/od/churchst...hairprayer.htm
    You are referring to other cases. I was referring to one, just as the OP is reffering to one.

    Now I retract the idea that only one person was the source of the overall change.

    However my intended point is that
    1) We don't find them all in a given case. Thus making any "so far it's only 4" or any generalization that acts as though these are the only ones who are complaining.
    2) Also that even if they are a small minority, that they should be riddiculed for speaking. (as those in total complaining about prayer was minor compared to the total population).



    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I guess I just don't see the problem. I mean, what IS the problem, as you see it? What did GP propose that you find so very erroneous? Because, so far, I can only see that GP said a thing that aligned exactly with what he offered as support.
    Well, the attack as I see it, and what you seem to be supporting is just as I said.

    So the response seems to be.

    O wow.. they found 4 people who hate their parents.. there are 6 million who don't have a problem with it.


    So ridiucle and belittling the 4 people speaking. Comparing them to a group of people to which are not directly comparable to them.

    Just as you said "so far it's only 4".


    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    What I got from what he said was, essentially, because there's so many children of LGBT parents, it's odd that appears to be a minority of them that are opposed to gay marriage. What's more, scientific data suggests that LGBT parents are just as fit to raise children as are straight parents, and the minority report from 4 people (one of whom is clearly gay) doesn't seem to undermine this fact.
    First of all, who are you guys to say that person was gay? Did they identify themselves as that, or are you guys now psycologists?
    He isn't clearly gay, there is a such thing as sexual confusion due to phycological problems from home. That you guys dismiss this out of hand as a real thing is something I object to.
    you seem to forget that The man stopped having problems when he reconnected emotionally with his father. Which points not to being gay as the source of the behavior, but phsycological problems due to not having a proper healthy father figure in his life.

    Second, I objec that the 6M is support for the point that 4 people are a minority. I offered why already, if you need clarification on it let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    What's more, scientific data suggests that LGBT parents are just as fit to raise children as are straight parents, and the minority report from 4 people (one of whom is clearly gay) doesn't seem to undermine this fact.
    Well, I didn't see a related quote from the second link and didn't read through the entire link, so I won't comment on the paper published by people who are working eliminate the stigma of mental illnesses bla bla bla....

    I was not commenting on that. But the first link didn't support his point as it was stated, due to the flaw I said. It's categorical.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  19. #12
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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    First, thanks for the clarifications. Much appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So the response seems to be.

    O wow.. they found 4 people who hate their parents.. there are 6 million who don't have a problem with it.
    I think this is the crux of the issue. It's not "There are 6 million who don't have a problem with it". It's "6 million children and adults in the United States right now have an LGBT parent."

    I see it like this: Believe it or not, there are still people in this country who think women shouldn't have the right to vote. Now, granted, these people are making conversation and they're not standing in front of a judge. But the point is that, even if they were standing in front of a judge (half of the people in the link are women, btw), I'd be no more interested in their views on the topic than I am of the views of these four people espousing the virtues of denying equal rights to LGBT persons. Why? Because - and maybe it's just me - I tend to not find dumb things said by four people very persuasive.

    (Also, please note that I'm not saying that it's just four people that hold this view; I'm merely talking about these four people. I don't find dumb views persuasive, no matter how many people say them. Nor am I saying that because it's only four people that they must be saying dumb things.)

    I say that the things are saying are "dumb" because they are. I mean, for goodness sake, MT. If I wanted, based on personal anecdote, to describe a home environment that seems to be conducive to raising a kid with little academic ambitions to grow up healthy, free of any addictions, socially liberal, agnostic, all for personal/religious liberty and small government, and to make 100-150K a year with a GED, I'd say that that they should:

    • come from a broken home (make marriage illegal!)
    • have siblings who all have different fathers (make monogamy illegal!)
    • never become especially close with their own father (make parent bonding illegal!)
    • be surrounded for the first decade of their lives with nothing but drug abusers and drunks (make all drugs legal at any age!)
    • be forced to scavenge for food in the house due to their mom sleeping until noon and they're not yet old enough to go to school (make responsible parenting illegal!)
    • move dozens of times before the age of 10 (make a stable home illegal!)
    • be forcibly raped for a minimum of 2 years before turning 9 (make rape legal!)
    • etc.

    How do I know this works? Because it worked with me! Yay for rape and drugs! :D

    Never once along the way did I ever: want to take drugs, want to have sex with men, want to drink (I never really drank socially until my mid-30s), want to rebel, want to party, want to get in trouble, etc. Hell, I wasn't even that upset with my parents (a little, sure, but not enough to argue against their rights in front of a judge). I mean, mom was strung out back then. That's just how it was. And my poor dad was just trying to figure out how to be a grown-up. I know what that feels like. No hard feelings. It is what it is.

    But if we take personal testimony as evidence that a certain state of affairs leads to certain tendencies (*such as the guy who totally-is-definitely-not-at-all-gay, but was only "confused" and consumed by the overwhelming urge the urge to suck d!ck because of the influence of his LGBT parent), then almost certainly you'd expect me to be unemployed, to be hooked on drugs, to be broke, to be on welfare, to be entitled, to have a tendency to want to rape, to have the urge to pop a male weener in my mouth every now again due to my severe confusion about my sexuality, etc.

    (As it turns out, I like boobies. Always have. No idea why. But I don't judge gays for what they like.)

    THAT'S why I say this whole thing is dumb. It is. So what if 4 people are angry about having LGBT parents? What does that have to do with the rights of LGBT people? What about all the people who think their straight parents sucked? Should we do away with that sort of marriage too? If not that, should we seriously entertain the idea, just because they don't like it? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

    So no, I don't find the testimonies of these 4 folks to be all that persuasive. Sure, I agree that they have piercing insight as to how THEY feel THEY should have been raised (as I'm sure lots of kids feel), but that's a damn sight away from having a good sense of what's good for the rest of the world.

    (Also, I think Gemini made a great point. Marriage is about what a couple wants for themselves; not what a smattering of people want for all the children in United States.)

    * I’m not saying there’s no such thing as confusion about one’s own sexuality. I’m saying that we don’t know enough about it to definitely ascribe its causes to an LGBT parent.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Will people with heterosexual parents and awful experiences be allowed to testify?

    These four experiences aren't even similar, how does that support any conclusions about having homosexual parents?

    Heck, I "wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples".
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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @DIO
    The distinction is this the OP is talking about people who are raised by same sex couples, or a single same sex parent.

    GP's quoted section is about how many people have a LGBT parent. His number would include people who raised children in a traditional manner, and later "came out". That is why the 6 million is very different than the smaller 200K kids currently being raised in a same sex home.

    So, I'm saying that GP's selected stat is padded and doesn't actually support his point as he presents it. The large 6M figure is used to show that the 4 disgruntled, biased, lying, douchbags are the exception to the otherwise pleasant harmonized well adjusted peoples of the LGBT family unit.

    So.. stat quoted by GP is not people raised in a LGBT home. It is the number of people who just so happen to be related to a LGBT person, and makes no reference to their conditions as children, which is what the OP is discussing.


    Comparison.
    Suppose I was arguing that it is not good to raise a child with a gun in the house,
    and you quoted a stat that said everyone knows of someone with a gun. ...
    Well, knowing someone with a gun is not the same as being raised with a gun in the house. Just one famous person with a gun would skew the stat to irrelevance of the topic.

    Just to be clear here, MT your argument is irrelevant. The statement that there are 6 million people with gay parents (not necessarily being raised by, yes, but still has a gay parents) was to get a handle on the kind of numbers we would need to make any sort of conclusion. With that said, that's why I followed the first statistic up with the second report from the APA, which included many statistics and studies directly over the groups in question, and this addresses your entire concern. Therefore, I did cite the report which does contain the complete apples to apples comparisons and statistical surveys of children from same-sex households, statements from psychologists, et cetera. And thus this line of argumentation is irrelevant because what you're asking about has already addressed in my first post, you just needed to click the second link for the full report.

    Although I already summarized it: There's no statistically difference between being raised by gay or a straight parents; there's bad gay parents and there are bad straight parents, but their sexual orientation holds no correlation with their ability to be a good parent. End of story.
    Last edited by GoldPhoenix; March 16th, 2015 at 01:43 PM.
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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Honestly I don't see how the brief and testimony in question has much relevance on the case. The legal questions are whether or not the states can discriminate against same sex partnerships, denying them the legal benefits of a legal marriage made in another state. Whether kids like having same sex parents or not is not all that relevant. Lots of things in life are challenging but they don't trump basic principles like equality before the law.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Although these testimonies are certainly fallaciously arguing against GM, as already pointed out extensively and thus far, unrebutted, it shows how there is no case to be had against a Federal gay marriage law.


    What's going to be interesting is how they're going to split their time protesting outside of Abortion Clinics and Marriage Licensers.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    @ Dio, Can't argue with that... and apparently can't rep either.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP
    he statement that there are 6 million people with gay parents (not necessarily being raised by, yes, but still has a gay parents) was to get a handle on the kind of numbers we would need to make any sort of conclusion.
    So my argument that your number of 6 million is irrelevant to supporting what you are trying to support IE "Kind of number". Bercause it doesn't directly relate to the topic at hand "IE people RAISED in a Gay and lesbian household" .. Which I would like to add that transgender and bisexual are not relevant factors, and thus bloat the number further.

    Is irrelevant?

    Thanks for your opinion. without addressing my point.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So my argument that your number of 6 million is irrelevant to supporting what you are trying to support IE "Kind of number".
    I read the original argument as saying that since there are six million children being raised by gay parents, finding four who had an unhappy experiences does not adequately support the position that gays are inferior parents. So basically the larger the number, the weaker a sample of four detractors becomes. So six million is significant.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I read the original argument as saying that since there are six million children being raised by gay parents, finding four who had an unhappy experiences does not adequately support the position that gays are inferior parents. So basically the larger the number, the weaker a sample of four detractors becomes. So six million is significant.
    Hence my objection that 6 million is not accurate to that point. It is not 6 million BEING or WERE raised that it is referring to. it is 6 million with a parent who is currently GLTB(whatever). So, a person who is raised by a traditional family, and who's father later "comes out of the closet" is included in that. But it doesn't speak to the issue of gays being married to each other and raising a child.
    So. the number is flawed.
    (see my gun owner comparison)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Adults raised by same sex couples speak out against same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Hence my objection that 6 million is not accurate to that point. It is not 6 million BEING or WERE raised that it is referring to. it is 6 million with a parent who is currently GLTB(whatever). So, a person who is raised by a traditional family, and who's father later "comes out of the closet" is included in that. But it doesn't speak to the issue of gays being married to each other and raising a child.
    So. the number is flawed.
    The number might not be accurate but it doesn't mean that overall the argument is flawed. As an analogy, if one is to argue that the sun is bigger than the Earth but misstates the actual size of the sun, it doesn't really hurt their argument.

    Similarly, whatever the number of gays raising children is, it's still large enough to where providing four detractors does not constitute a valid argument against gay marriage. So whether the actual number is six million or 250,000 (I can support that number), the overall point of GPs argument holds up.

 

 
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