Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Unacceptable Scripture

    'Let women keep silent in the Churches'
    Cheryl Schatz is a Christian fundametalist who wants to preach in public. The poor woman has spent years battling with this bible quote because she is afraid to say it is wrong.
    Many Christians are afraid of the Bible they dare not deny it. Theologians have spent centuries struggling to prove its consistency.
    Why struggle when common sense tells us this cannot be right.
    Other non- believers have rejected the whole Bible because they are afraid to admit it might contain some truth.
    Slowly but shorely women are taking positions in the ministry. Gays are being recognised as having a right to belief.Life cannot be crammed into an ideology its too big for that. Lets stop *****-footing and get real and pragmatic.Chuck out what doesn't work keep in what works.

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    I think to do that you have to have an understanding that the bible is a work of man, inspired by God and that God's message can well be changed by men and their own personal beliefs. So for this passage you can see it as the gender norms of the time working their way into a religious practice rather than a commandment from God as to the role of women in church.

    I think the reason many do not wish to accept this notion is how much of their faith it could cast doubt on. How much of the bible can be trusted and how much not? It is certainly a problem a great many believer has attempted to tackle. Famously Jefferson wrote his own bible with only the parts he thought trustworthy. Others have done much the same though most are looked on with great suspicion "isn't that how it becomes corrupted, men changing it to suit what they believe?"

    I think in this respect it is good to follow Jesus's advice and worry far more for your own deeds and bellies than to seek to judge/exclude/punish others for theirs.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    Chuck out what doesn't work keep in what works.
    That isn't what Cheryl Schatz does. She doesn't throw out Timothy 1: 11-14. Instead she works incredibly hard at interpreting it in a way that suits her needs: http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2011/06...general-woman/

    No need to throw out passages if you can twist, salt and pretzelize them into something more palatable.

    What good is the Bible, Kaptonok, if you're going to believe only what you want, and reinterpret or throw out what you won't accept? Are you using the Bible for guidance as the Word of God, or are you choosing what you like at a buffet?
    Last edited by evensaul; May 4th, 2015 at 02:14 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That isn't what Cheryl Schatz does. She doesn't throw out Timothy 1: 11-14. Instead she works incredibly hard at interpreting it in a way that suits her needs. No need to throw out passages if you can twist and pretzelize them into something palatable.
    Personally I find those kinds of apologetics a bit dishonest in some ways. Cognitive dissonance if you will. Then again I find a lot of standard apologetics in the same vein, taking something that is to me pretty clear and adding a lot of conditionals to make it come out more convenient to the desired view. That said, if the outcome is someone treating people with more kindness (such as including women in teaching religion), then I'm happy they found a way to justify it to themselves. Still, if they argued it here, I'd probably tell them they were wrong.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,617
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What good is the Bible, Kaptonok, if you're going to believe only what you want, and reinterpret or throw out what you won't accept? Are you using the Bible for guidance as the Word of God, or are you choosing what you like at a buffet?
    Yeah, that's my question, but every Christian seems to throw the Bible's literal teachings out and replace it with coherent, sensible moral sentiments and "inspired" readings. And honestly, I'm not sad about this. I have no idea why people spend so much time trying to interpret ancient books of poetry and philosophy, let alone believe that they contain anything resembling a historical fact (let alone a scientific fact). Still, people seem to be very content clinging to these ancient books, but I think it'd be a more honest society if we just threw the Bible out of the question, and admitted that we're all doing what we think is right and what makes sense to us, instead of pretending to hide behind a book or some divinely-inspired life experiences. (Hint: They're just life experiences)
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  6. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What good is the Bible, Kaptonok, if you're going to believe only what you want, and reinterpret or throw out what you won't accept? Are you using the Bible for guidance as the Word of God, or are you choosing what you like at a buffet?
    Consider if the bible were stories and teachings from human beings doing their best to capture their personal understanding of god so others could learn from it. What would be the best approach to such a work?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Consider if the bible were stories and teachings from human beings doing their best to capture their personal understanding of god so others could learn from it. What would be the best approach to such a work?
    I'm sure people who think that would agree with you or GP. However, I get the impression that Kaptonok believes it is more than that.

    Edit: I hadn't checked his profile, but now see it says Agnostic. I wouldn't have bothered posting if I'd looked first.
    Last edited by evensaul; May 4th, 2015 at 06:07 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    As a Christian you are unable to judge the Bible for that would be judging God. Therefore you are hide- bound to wriggle and fence until you can believe you believe it.
    Any scientific teaching or philosophy that sits invonerable to critisism cannot stand the test of time.
    As an agnostic I'm free to say what I think and I'm free to make judgements about any text I please.
    By choice I'm bound by the golden rule ' Do unto others as you would be done by.'

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    As a Christian you are unable to judge the Bible for that would be judging God. Therefore you are hide- bound to wriggle and fence until you can believe you believe it.
    Not necessarily. If you debate here a while you will get to know folks like Eye4Magic who has a rather flexible view of doctrine in many respects. (or so it seems to me) I generally find her views to be very much in keeping with the teaching of Jesus (as we know them), but not always much in keeping with "the church" or certain elements of the bible.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  10. #10
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    2,765
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    'Let women keep silent in the Churches'
    Cheryl Schatz is a Christian fundametalist who wants to preach in public. The poor woman has spent years battling with this bible quote because she is afraid to say it is wrong.
    Many Christians are afraid of the Bible they dare not deny it. Theologians have spent centuries struggling to prove its consistency.
    Why struggle when common sense tells us this cannot be right.
    Other non- believers have rejected the whole Bible because they are afraid to admit it might contain some truth.
    Slowly but shorely women are taking positions in the ministry. Gays are being recognised as having a right to belief.Life cannot be crammed into an ideology its too big for that. Lets stop *****-footing and get real and pragmatic.Chuck out what doesn't work keep in what works.
    But isn't it cool that as we develop from iron-age thinking to modern thinking that we can argue we are still compatible with God's own words, even if it does involve some circumlocution?

    As an atheist, it is astounding how modern man still finds real meaning in their ancient religious texts and ideas. But until we all find a replacement, it is probably better that most humans are kept in check believing In a potential Hell than realizing so such thing exists and acting immorally.

    If there is any "truth" in the Bible or any other religion it is slowly being whittled away but it must be done so by each religion. People have to realize themselves that they are responsible for their moral actions and not God. And you can see the transformation in Churches that are accepting female priests or even gay marriages. It can happen!

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Not necessarily. If you debate here a while you will get to know folks like Eye4Magic who has a rather flexible view of doctrine in many respects. (or so it seems to me) I generally find her views to be very much in keeping with the teaching of Jesus (as we know them), but not always much in keeping with "the church" or certain elements of the bible.
    It is good to be flexible for then we can make real judgements. To me The Apostle Paul moves away from the life and teachings of Jesus Christ but there is this obssesive desire for constistency which only makes us stubbon and unwilling to change.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Still, people seem to be very content clinging to these ancient books,
    That may be because truth tends to be timeless.

    but I think it'd be a more honest society if we just threw the Bible out of the question, and admitted that we're all doing what we think is right and what makes sense to us,
    The Bible is the Bible today, (the best selling book of all time), not because it has a huge marketing campaign that promotes it in the modern era or throughout history. It hasn't been thrown out of the question because its principles work and many of them are timeless. I don't think the Bible would be integrated with our current civilization in so many languages if its spiritual principles did not work in people's lives.

    And btw, historically, when force was used to attempt what you suggested (throw the Bible out of the question), that approach didn’t appear to work very well in Germany and much of Europe or Russia or China.

    instead of pretending to hide behind a book or some divinely-inspired life experiences.
    Yea, hiding behind a book is silly and doesn't work well, especially for the person. What seems to work more effectively is living the essence of the truth in the divine book -- that can be a game changer.
    Last edited by eye4magic; May 6th, 2015 at 07:05 PM.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    If the Bible had led us to follow the pattern laid down by Jesus Christ it would have been a power for revolution. But the sad history of Christianity belies this view.
    Like all philosophys and systems it has been subverted by men for their own interests. It is the perfect system to get us off the hook and for centuries the church used it to control mens lives. We were told we were sinners by even bigger sinners who lived off the fat of the land.
    Don't worry if you are a sinner we can see to it you will be forgiven. Naturally at a cost but what is your eternal soul worth?.
    ' Mankind you dismay me,
    When troubles way lay me.
    May God looky on you,
    'Have mercy upon you.'

  14. #14
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    If the Bible had led us to follow the pattern laid down by Jesus Christ it would have been a power for revolution.
    What pattern did Jesus Christ lay down?
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  15. #15
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unacceptable Scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What pattern did Jesus Christ lay down?
    Jesus was a Jew and followed Jewish law, but something unique in his conscience extended his thoughts to embrace all mankind.
    He became one of the greatest moral teachers ever born.
    He was , as were many in those ti mes a believer in God and in the obvious justice of an after life.
    Today many have a different perspective on the world some believe there is no such thing as universal justice.
    Jesus lived by his principles and died because of them. He had little time for the rich and powerful, but loved the poor, needy and destitute, not judging his fellow man.
    The Apostle Paul takes the story of the resurrection and crucifixion and turns it into his own brand of Christianity.
    This started the scapegoat philosophy of modern Christianity which is so appealing.

    ---------- Post added at 08:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ----------

    Dominic I have no higher qualifications and no sparkling genius to declare. I have however a respect for learning and life experience, and endeavour to listen to all comers for all are entitled to their viewpoint.
    To be beaten in argument is no shame and it hopefully sharpens our wits.
    I'm poor chess player but I enjoy the game.
    There are brains on this site and some of the stuff is too deep for me so
    I keep out.
    I will have my say for that is my right but I will not insult or belittle anyone.

  16. Likes Sigfried liked this post
 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Scripture request I
    By Zhavric in forum Religion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: March 19th, 2009, 11:21 AM
  2. Replies: 104
    Last Post: May 19th, 2008, 11:00 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •