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  1. #1
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    A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    If you read what the news media says about same sex marriage you will hear the opinions of three groups of people: gay people who support it, straight people who support it, and straight people who are opposed to it. But there is another group of people whose opinions don't get much publicity; gay people who oppose same sex marriage. Here is what one member of this last group says about the subject:

    Gay marriage has gone from unthinkable to reality in the blink of an eye. A recent Washington Post/ABC News poll shows that support for gay marriage is now at 61 percent—the highest it’s ever been. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court will hear arguments in the case that many court-watchers believe will deliver the final blow to those seeking to prevent the redefinition of marriage. By all measures, this fight is over. Gay marriage won.

    As a 30-year-old gay man, one would expect me to be ecstatic. After all, I’m at that age where people tend to settle down and get married. And there is nothing in this world I want more than to be a father and raise a family. Yet I can’t seem to bring myself to celebrate the triumph of same-sex marriage. Deep down, I know that every American, gay or straight, has suffered a great loss because of this.

    I’m not alone in thinking this. The big secret in the LGBT community is that there are a significant number of gays and lesbians who oppose same-sex marriage, and an even larger number who are ambivalent. You don’t hear us speak out because gay rights activists (most of whom are straight) have a history of viciously stamping out any trace of individualism within the gay community. I asked to publish this article under a pseudonym, not because I fear harassment from Christian conservatives, but because I know this article will make me a target of the Gaystapo.


    Marriage Is More than a Contract

    The wheels of my Pride Parade float came off the moment I realized that the argument in support of gay marriage is predicated on one audaciously bald-faced lie: the lie that same-sex relationships are inherently equal to heterosexual relationships. It only takes a moment of objective thought to realize that the union of two men or two women is a drastically different arrangement than the union of a man and a woman. It’s about time we realize this very basic truth and stop pretending that all relationships are created equal.

    This inherent inequality is often overlooked by same-sex marriage advocates because they lack a fundamental understanding of what marriage actually is. It seems as though most people view marriage as little more than a love contract. Two people fall in love, agree to stick together (for a while, at least), then sign on the dotted line. If marriage is just a love contract, then surely same-sex couples should be allowed to participate in this institution. After all, two men or two women are capable of loving each other just as well as a man and a woman.

    But this vapid understanding of marriage leaves many questions unanswered. If marriage is little more than a love contract, why do we need government to get involved? Why was government invited to regulate marriages but not other interpersonal relationships, like friendships? Why does every religion hold marriage to be a sacred and divine institution? Surely marriage must be more than just a love contract.

    Government Is Involved in Marriage Because It Creates Babies

    People have forgotten that the defining feature of marriage, the thing that makes marriage marriage, is the sexual complementarity of the people involved. Marriage is often correctly viewed as an institution deeply rooted in religious tradition. But people sometimes forget that marriage is also based in science. When a heterosexual couple has sex, a biological reaction can occur that results in a new human life.

    Government got into the marriage business to ensure that these new lives are created in a responsible manner. This capacity for creating new life is what makes marriage special. No matter how much we try, same-sex couples will never be able to create a new life. If you find that level of inequality offensive, take it up with Mother Nature. Redefining marriage to include same-sex couples relegates this once noble institution to nothing more than a lousy love contract. This harms all of society by turning marriage, the bedrock of society, into a meaningless anachronism.

    A Good Dad Puts Kids First

    Same-sex relationships not only lack the ability to create children, but I believe they are also suboptimal environments for raising children. On a personal level, this was an agonizing realization for me to come to. I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

    Same-sex relationships, by design, require children to be removed from one or more of their biological parents and raised absent a father or mother. This hardly seems fair. So much of what we do as a society prioritizes the needs of adults over the needs of children. Social Security and Medicare rob the young to pay the old. The Affordable Care Act requires young and healthy people to buy insurance to subsidize the cost for the old and sick. Our schools seem more concerned with keeping the teachers unions happy than they are educating our children. Haven’t children suffered enough to make adults’ lives more convenient? For once, it would be nice to see our society put the needs of children first. Let’s raise them in homes where they can enjoy having both a mom and a dad. We owe them that.

    At its core, the institution of marriage is all about creating and sustaining families. Over thousands of years of human civilization, the brightest minds have been unable to come up with a successful alternative. Yet in our hubris we assume we know better. Americans need to realize that same-sex relationships will never be equal to traditional marriages. You know what? I’m okay with that.
    http://thefederalist.com/2015/04/28/...-sex-marriage/

    The author of this article did not reveal his real name. The paragraph in bold type tells the reason for this.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  2. #2
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    If you read what the news media says about same sex marriage you will hear the opinions of three groups of people: gay people who support it, straight people who support it, and straight people who are opposed to it. But there is another group of people whose opinions don't get much publicity; gay people who oppose same sex marriage. Here is what one member of this last group says about the subject:



    http://thefederalist.com/2015/04/28/...-sex-marriage/

    The author of this article did not reveal his real name. The paragraph in bold type tells the reason for this.
    That's because both of their opinions are outweighed by the millions of gays who do want gay marriage.




    More seriously, I don't care if gays want gay marriage anymore than if Mormon's want polyamorous marriages. I think that both are warranted based on their merits, not on whether or not gays or bigamists think that they should be allowed to be married. Presumably, some pedophiles want to get married to children, even if there were a million of them it wouldn't make me consider their position differently, and having a few pedophiles who're against child-marriages doesn't really factor one way or the other into my decision to be against pederastic marriages. So by the same token, having a few gays who're against gay marriage does nothing to change my opinions on the matter, nor frankly, should it do anything to change anyone's opinions on the matter as it's a total red herring.





    Also to clarify, I agree with the above commenters below that when I read "The author of this article did not reveal his real name", I thought the whole thing was almost certainly fabricated.
    Last edited by GoldPhoenix; May 11th, 2015 at 11:52 AM.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  3. #3
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Being gay doesn't protect you from being stupid.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    The author is not for real. Here's the give-away:

    "I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams."

    An actual gay man who is considering adoption has to realize that the child he would adopt is no longer living with the mother - otherwise the child would not be available for adoption.

    So it's a lame attempt to attempt to add some credibility to some weak anti-gay arguments by claiming the author of the article is gay.
    Last edited by mican333; May 11th, 2015 at 11:56 AM.

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So it's some lame attempt to add some credibility to some weak anti-gay arguments by claiming the author of the article is gay.
    Quite possibly that, or it could just be an idiot. The line you noted was the most ridiculous in the article. As if there were some gay conspiracy to kidnap straight couples children or what have you... it makes no sense.
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  7. #6
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Quite possibly that, or it could just be an idiot.
    I just don't think it's possible to seriously look into adopting a child and not realize that prospective adoptees are already separated from their birth parents.

    Since the author is caught lying about his intent to adopt a child, other biographical claims of his can be dismissed, including the claim that he's gay.

  8. #7
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    fake
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #8
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The author is not for real. Here's the give-away:

    "I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams."

    An actual gay man who is considering adoption has to realize that the child he would adopt is no longer living with the mother - otherwise the child would not be available for adoption.

    So it's a lame attempt to attempt to add some credibility to some weak anti-gay arguments by claiming the author of the article is gay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Quite possibly that, or it could just be an idiot. The line you noted was the most ridiculous in the article. As if there were some gay conspiracy to kidnap straight couples children or what have you... it makes no sense.
    I think you guys may have misunderstood what he was saying. Look at the context of the remark:

    I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

    Understanding that bit clarifies the meaning the in the following sentence. If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father. I didn't read it at all as though he's saying that adoption means literally ripping a child away from his parents, but rather that the ripping away is a denial of the child's potential different-sex future parents.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  10. #9
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Understanding that bit clarifies the meaning the in the following sentence. If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father. I didn't read it at all as though he's saying that adoption means literally ripping a child away from his parents, but rather that the ripping away is a denial of the child's potential different-sex future parents.
    How? What is the situation where a child has a mother and a same sex couple rips him away from her? Kids that are up for adoption don't have a mother willing to keep them. They either don't have one at all, or their mother has decided not to raise them.

    Not to mention that gay marriage does not mean that all gay couples are going to raise children. And if you are worried about competition between dual sex parents adopting a child vs same sex couples then you can simply make a rule giving priority to mixed sex couples (provided you can prove there is an advantage, from what I've seen that isn't too difficult)
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  11. #10
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    I would also like to point out that the entire "raising children in the 'right' kid of family" argument is a moot point with regards to same sex marriage.

    I will use myself and my husband as an example for why.

    We have been together for almost 20 years. We have been legally married for 5 years. We have two teenage daughters through a surrogate. Our oldest is 17 years old. We were raising children (like many other same sex couples) long before same sex marriage was an option. Whether or not same sex marriage is or will be made legal makes no difference.

    Does anyone really think that by banning same sex marriage that children will then only be raised by heterosexual couples?

  12. #11
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    I think you guys may have misunderstood what he was saying. Look at the context of the remark:

    I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

    Understanding that bit clarifies the meaning the in the following sentence. If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father. I didn't read it at all as though he's saying that adoption means literally ripping a child away from his parents, but rather that the ripping away is a denial of the child's potential different-sex future parents.
    The "gay" man's argument is so preposterously illogical it's painful. There's two ways in which a gay couple can have children.

    1.) The first is if a surrogate female is willing to host a child inside her for two gay males, or a trip to the sperm bank for a lesbian couple. No children are being ripped from their parents. In both the case of the sperm bank and the surrogate mother, they aren't intending to be parents or play the role as a parent.

    2.) They go to an orphanage and take on a child that has already been abandoned.

    You'll note that in both cases no one's stealing children. As it turns out, there's no insidious group of depraved f****s roaming the night to rip children from the clutches of their mother's arms only and forcing the children to be raised by two fathers and demanded that they know the difference between fuchsia and magenta. Well, that last part might not be false for all gay households.


    3.) For the five-thousandth time, there's statistically nothing "missing" from children with two gay parents. Psychologists firmly agree on this point, to say otherwise is in spite of scientific research, not because of it.


    4.) If we really believed that every child must have two parenta, then should we impose a constitutional amendment banning single parenting? Should we ban single parent adoption?
    Last edited by GoldPhoenix; May 12th, 2015 at 08:13 AM.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father.
    No, it's not.

    For one, many children will never get adopted so the alternative to same-sex parents may be no parents at all. And more importantly, same-sex couples can, and do, marry without caring for any children so it's blatantly inaccurate to say that such a partnership denies a child the ability to live with a mother..

    So the article very much seems to be some weak anti-gay marriage arguments cobbled together by a typical anti-gay marriage proponent than a gay man who's given these issues some serious thought.
    Last edited by mican333; May 12th, 2015 at 06:59 AM.

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    The author of this article did not reveal his real name.
    Well, there are some gay people who do oppose gay marriage. Here's another gay man who does reveal himself on national television with an interesting perspective.

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    How? What is the situation where a child has a mother and a same sex couple rips him away from her? Kids that are up for adoption don't have a mother willing to keep them. They either don't have one at all, or their mother has decided not to raise them.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    You'll note that in both cases no one's stealing children. As it turns out, there's no insidious group of depraved f****s roaming the night to rip children from the clutches of their mother's arms only and forcing the children to be raised by two fathers and demanded that they know the difference between fuchsia and magenta.
    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, it's not.

    For one, many children will never get adopted so the alternative to same-sex parents may be no parents at all. And more importantly, same-sex couples can, and do, marry without caring for any children so it's blatantly inaccurate to say that such a partnership denies a child the ability to live with a mother..

    So the article very much seems to be some weak anti-gay marriage arguments cobbled together by a typical anti-gay marriage proponent than a gay man who's given these issues some serious thought.
    And the gold goes to Mican for being the ONLY person to actually address the post.

    GP, Sig, I'll re-post what I wrote so you two can see WHY I'm being a smartass about this:

    Look at the context of the remark:


    I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

    Understanding that bit clarifies the meaning the in the following sentence. If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father. I didn't read it at all as though he's saying that adoption means literally ripping a child away from his parents, but rather that the ripping away is a denial of the child's potential different-sex future parents.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    And the gold goes to Mican for being the ONLY person to actually address the post.

    GP, Sig, I'll re-post what I wrote so you two can see WHY I'm being a smartass about this:

    Look at the context of the remark:


    I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

    Understanding that bit clarifies the meaning the in the following sentence. If every child needs a mom and a dad, then a same-sex partnership is by definition "ripping a child away" from his [potential] mother or father. I didn't read it at all as though he's saying that adoption means literally ripping a child away from his parents, but rather that the ripping away is a denial of the child's potential different-sex future parents.
    Protip: Read my full post.


    "3.) For the five-thousandth time, there's statistically nothing "missing" from children with two gay parents. Psychologists firmly agree on this point, to say otherwise is in spite of scientific research, not because of it.

    4.) If we really believed that every child must have two parents, then should we impose a constitutional amendment banning single parenting? Should we ban single parent adoption?"



    I'm guessing that you don't believe this later part, especially.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  18. #16
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    4.) If we really believed that every child must have two parents, then should we impose a constitutional amendment banning single parenting? Should we ban single parent adoption?"[/indent][/I]

    Single parents do rank lower on the list for adoption than married couples though, right?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    GP, Sig, I'll re-post what I wrote so you two can see WHY I'm being a smartass about this:
    Sorry Mr Hyde but you still have it wrong.
    Ripping a child away from something linguistically denotes they had it in the first place. By definition (take/ripped) you cannot take a thing away that you did not have to begin with.
    The fact the guy thinks that every child needs a mom is irrelevant to the fact that not every child has a mom.
    It is also by definition (of need) wrong since many children survive and thrive without a Mom or Dad and occasionally both.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Single parents do rank lower on the list for adoption than married couples though, right?
    I'm unfamiliar with the idea that they do, but it's entirely possible. They certainly do not, however, prohibit single persons from adopting children, nor do we prohibit single persons from having children. Thus even if true, it says nothing favorable about this "gay" man's "argument."
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    And whether the author is actually gay or not or whether some other person who makes an anti-gay marriage argument is gay or not is rather irrelevant.

    An argument does not gain or lose validity based on the characteristics of the person who makes the argument. In fact, to attack an argument based on the characteristics of the arguer is to engage in an Ad Hom fallacy. And the same fallacy applies to those who attempt to promote an argument based on the characteristics of the arguer.

    So basically, who cares if a gay man makes an anti-gay marriage argument? Are we impressed when a straight man makes an argument for gay marriage?

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  23. #20
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    Re: A gay man who opposes same sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    I'm unfamiliar with the idea that they do, but it's entirely possible. They certainly do not, however, prohibit single persons from adopting children, nor do we prohibit single persons from having children. Thus even if true, it says nothing favorable about this "gay" man's "argument."

    No one is proposing preventing a gay person from having a child, so I'm not sure how that point is relevant.

    Your point would be a valid objection to prohibition against gay adoption, but few organizations have ever even floated that idea. Rather, what is usually offered is that there be prioritization, which was what my point was addressing.

    The objection seemed to be "that is ludicrous," to which I was noting that we already do it, so the argument should be more about whether or not this is on the same reasoning as the prioritization we already do.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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