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  1. #1
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    What should Jack do?

    Jack is a male in his late 30’s. Two years ago Jack was on vacation in Hawaii attending a beach party. He met Sally there, a friendly, kind and outgoing girl, and they got to know each other. Sally was also socializing with other guys at the party. Jack and Sally both agreed to go for a walk on the beach together. Sally politely informed Jack before their walk that she was not interested in sex but would enjoy a walk on the beautiful sunset beach with her new friend. He agreed that he had no such intentions.

    Fifteen minutes into their walk he began to get aggressive with her. She resisted and his anger got violent. He then raped her and intentionally strangled her to death dragging her body into the ocean. A few days later when they find her body, Jack along with a number of other men Sally was talking with at the party (including an ex-boyfriend) were brought in for questioning. He was/is not a suspect, but her ex-boyfriend is. He flew back to the states to resume his life.

    Jack does have a major anger issue and he has raped before but his victims never reported the crime. He has never murdered his victims until his walk on the beach with Sally. He now has gotten away with a major crime: rape/murder. Jack has no particular religious or spiritual belief system. His morals are upside down and he has justified murdering his victim.

    Two years pass by and Jack’s conscience begins to haunt him. He turns to hard drugs to suppress the discomfort which he manages and maintains his job as an advertising manager. However, he begins to have health and psychological issues, which result in him losing his job and his home.

    What should Jack do? Should he turn himself in for the murder he committed on the beach or should he continue his life, because he got away with murder, as a relatively free man with a numbed/buried conscience?
    Last edited by eye4magic; May 20th, 2015 at 12:01 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    He should confess to his crimes in writing, make sure that the authorities receive these confessions, and then execute himself as punishment and for the betterment of society.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  3. #3
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Jack is a male in his late 30’s. Two years ago Jack was on vacation in Hawaii attending a beach party. He met Sally there, a friendly, kind and outgoing girl, and they got to know each other. Sally was also socializing with other guys at the party. Jack and Sally both agreed to go for a walk on the beach together. Sally politely informed Jack before their walk that she was not interested in sex but would enjoy a walk on the beautiful sunset beach with her new friend. He agreed that he had no such intentions.

    Fifteen minutes into their walk he began to get aggressive with her. She resisted and his anger got violent. He then raped her and intentionally strangled her to death dragging her body into the ocean. A few days later when they found her body, Jack along with a number of other men Sally was talking with at the party (including an ex-boyfriend) were brought in for questioning. He was/is not a suspect, but her ex-boyfriend was. He flew back to the states to resume his life.

    Jack does have a major anger issue and he has raped before but his victims never reported the crime. He has never murdered his victims until his walk on the beach with Sally. He now has gotten away with a major crime: murder. Jack has no particular religious or spiritual belief system. His morals are upside down and he has justified murdering his victim. Two years pass by and Jack’s conscience begins to haunt him. He turns to hard drugs to suppress the discomfort which me manages and maintains his job as an advertising manager. However, he beings to have health and psychological issues, which result in him losing his job and his home.

    What should Jack do? Should he turn himself in for the murder he committed on the beach or should he continue his life, because he got away with murder, as a relatively free man with a numbed/buried conscience?
    Sounds like he needs another helping of rape and murder. He needs to normalize his behavior so that he becomes comfortable with his actions. Desensitize himself to the murder and rape. He may require a murder/rape spree to get over it. He should probably try to express himself more with his rapes/murders. They should provide not just physical satisfaction, but emotional release as well. He should use the rapes and murders to make moral and ethical lessons to his victims and to society.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #4
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    I'm confused about the question. Are you asking what Jack should do to improve his life circumstances? Are you asking what Jack should do morally? Are you asking what WE think Jack should do morally? Are you asking what WE think JACK should think to do morally?

  5. #5
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    What should Jack do?

    Jack has no particular religious or spiritual belief system. His morals are upside down and he has justified murdering his victim.
    Forgive me if I'm reading an invisible "therefore" between those sentences but I'd like to clarify something.

    Another alternate to a religious or spiritual belief system is a human is or secular one. No one needs a supernatural reason to belief that killing someone is wrong!

    Also being religious or spiritual is no guarantee of not raping or killing. Indeed it is well known that people in such positions of unbridled power often use it for sexual gratification. The Catholic Church and lots of cults do so.

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  7. #6
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I'm confused about the question. Are you asking what Jack should do to improve his life circumstances? Are you asking what Jack should do morally? Are you asking what WE think Jack should do morally? Are you asking what WE think JACK should think to do morally?
    The question is being addressed to anybody observing the scenario of Jack’s circumstance. It is not about Jack’s choice or his lack of moral compass. He has already made a choice. He got away with rape and murder and he expects to live as a free man without experiencing any consequences to his crimes. Somehow his twisted moral compass has justified his actions.

    ---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Also being religious or spiritual is no guarantee of not raping or killing.
    Right, some religions people commit horrific crimes and some do get away with it and are able to numb their conscience for a while. In this scenario, Jack is not religious nor does he feel he should have to pay any consequences for his immoral actions since he got away with the crimes
    .
    So what should Jack do?
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  8. #7
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The question is being addressed to anybody observing the scenario of Jack’s circumstance. It is not about Jack’s choice or his lack of moral compass. He has already made a choice. He got away with rape and murder and he expects to live as a free man without experiencing any consequences to his crimes. Somehow his twisted moral compass has justified his actions.
    Ok, so if Jack has already made his choice, then what are you asking when you say "What should Jack do"? Are you asking what other choice(s) Jack should make in order to chance his circumstances? Should we assume that Jack wants to change his circumstances?

    Also, you're asking what Jack should do. The word "should" has substantial meaning, especially as it relates to moral philosophy, so are you asking what he should do morally so that justice is served?

  9. #8
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Right, some religions people commit horrific crimes and some do get away with it and are able to numb their conscience for a while. In this scenario, Jack is not religious nor does he feel he should have to pay any consequences for his immoral actions since he got away with the crimes
    Ah. So there is a hidden "therefore"!

    So what should Jack do?
    The problem is that Jack is likely a psychopath - he doesn't feel empathy for his victims so there is bi guilt felt.

    Much like religious or spiritual rationalizations of terrible acts (eg most of what God does), Jack's justification, whatever it may have been, does not factor in the pain and suffering. The reasons are purely irrational, so in his world view, he should do nothing since he has done nothing wrong.

    For him to feel morally compelled to confess he would have to have feelings to begin with. But nothing you have described shows he has any emotional connection to the world at all. So he can't do anything.

  10. #9
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, so if Jack has already made his choice, then what are you asking when you say "What should Jack do"? Are you asking what other choice(s) Jack should make in order to chance his circumstances? Should we assume that Jack wants to change his circumstances?
    What should Jack do from your given perspective of him getting away with murder and rape? The objective of the question is to get other people’s view on what you think Jack should do from your point of view, your opinion given the observation of the circumstance (turn himself in; try to live a life outside of prison without consequences to his crime; something else). Then, it might also be interesting to ask why to your reasoning.


    Should we assume that Jack wants to change his circumstances?
    His main objective is he doesn’t want to experience the consequences to his actions.

    Also, you're asking what Jack should do. The word "should" has substantial meaning, especially as it relates to moral philosophy, so are you asking what he should do morally so that justice is served?
    Your should can be or can include or not include whatever you think about the observation.

    ---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    For him to feel morally compelled to confess he would have to have feelings to begin with. But nothing you have described shows he has any emotional connection to the world at all. So he can't do anything.
    His emotional state is not the issue and what he can or can't do is also not the issue. So, from your perspective, it sounds like you think Jack should turn himself in, even though he got away with murder and rape, right?
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  11. #10
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What should Jack do from your given perspective of him getting away with murder and rape? The objective of the question is to get other people’s view on what you think Jack should do from your point of view, your opinion given the observation of the circumstance (turn himself in; try to live a life outside of prison without consequences to his crime; something else). Then, it might also be interesting to ask why to your reasoning.
    I'd have to assume that anyone who thinks that Jack should be punished for his crimes will say that Jack should turn himself in and face the proscribed legal punishment for his crimes (or maybe punish himself by committing suicide). Are you expecting a different answer from any of us?

  12. #11
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Two years pass by and Jack’s conscience begins to haunt him.
    If his conscience really is emerging from the deep-freeze, Jack should probably go where it leads him.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  14. #12
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'd have to assume that anyone who thinks that Jack should be punished for his crimes will say that Jack should turn himself in and face the proscribed legal punishment for his crimes (or maybe punish himself by committing suicide). Are you expecting a different answer from any of us?
    That’s why I asked the question. It may be a no brainer for some people, but not for others.
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  15. #13
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    His emotional state is not the issue and what he can or can't do is also not the issue. So, from your perspective, it sounds like you think Jack should turn himself in, even though he got away with murder and rape, right?
    I'm not talking about his emotional state and I positing a "medical" diagnosis. I don't believe that Jack, even though he understands right from wrong, that there is a social punishment for rape and murder, and that it harms the victim, is in full control of his life. He snuffs a human life as we would an ant's - so it's not really a moral question.

    Missing the emotional connection we all have, then he has to intellectualize his harm to society due to his own actions and his own role in it. So I'm not sure if he should turn himself in because I don't know enough about him.

    For example, if Jack was an ISIS or Hoko Baran fighter that raped and killed an infidel then he would be consistent with his religious practices not to turn himself in. Right?

    Of course, from our perspective we think all rapists and murderers should fess up. But it is unlikely that anyone would willingly so so if the alternative was to have gotten away with it.

    Another scenario - All the priest boy rapists never went to jail and they atone another way, so if Jack was a priest then even though he has a religious moral background he believes that he needn't turn himself in. A non-religious person would have to live permanently with the guilt so without the Get out of Jail Free card that religions provide he might actually turn himself in.

    So in a real sense religion and spirituality is provably working against secular justice. Agree?

  16. #14
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Missing the emotional connection we all have, then he has to intellectualize his harm to society due to his own actions and his own role in it. So I'm not sure if he should turn himself in because I don't know enough about him.
    Ok, your response is noted: you're not sure he should turn himself in for murdering and raping a woman and getting away with it.

    You brought up some other interesting points, but I can't address them now, but will do so later.
    Last edited by eye4magic; May 20th, 2015 at 11:55 AM.
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  17. #15
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Ok, your response is noted: you're not sure he should turn himself in for murdering and raping a woman and getting away with it.
    Well, according to my own morality yes, I think he should but then it's a weird question to ask because I don't think he should have done it in the first place.

    You brought up some other interesting points, but I can't address them now, but will do so later.
    Thanks! It appears that I'm drawing opposite conclusions from you regarding the efficacy of religious/spiritual moral frameworks. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.

  18. #16
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What should Jack do from your given perspective of him getting away with murder and rape?
    If Jack has already reconciled his deeds in his mind, what does my perspective of him getting away with it have to do with what he should now choose to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The objective of the question is to get other people’s view on what you think Jack should do from your point of view, your opinion given the observation of the circumstance (turn himself in; try to live a life outside of prison without consequences to his crime; something else). Then, it might also be interesting to ask why to your reasoning.
    So, are you asking if, from our perspectives, justice ought to be served and if so, how should that come about?

    ---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    His main objective is he doesn’t want to experience the consequences to his actions.
    So you're asking what Jack should to in order to not experience the consequences of his actions? What consequences are you talking about? His feelings of guilt? Are you asking what Jack should do so that he no longer feels guilty?


    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Your should can be or can include or not include whatever you think about the observation.
    ...what?

  19. #17
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    It appears that I'm drawing opposite conclusions from you regarding the efficacy of religious/spiritual moral frameworks.
    The OP is not a religious premise. Please note I posted this in the hypothetical forum for a reason. It’s not meant to be a religious debate. If anything, it’s a debate about man's conscience and when we violate our personal and/or society’s norms -- how we respond to our human conscience.

    Now one could make the argument that the way we respond to our conscience depends on our religious beliefs or lack thereof. So in Jack’s case, he had no particular religious beliefs and responded to his painful guilt ridden conscience by numbing it. That is an option we humans have – we can numb/bury our conscience when we violate our norms and sense of right verses wrong, at least for a while. But is that the wisest thing to do in this scenario? Personally, I don’t think numbing our conscience with drugs because we can’t or won’t deal with it is a good idea.

    Of course, from our perspective we think all rapists and murderers should fess up.
    No, I don’t think all people would agree he should fess up. Maybe most people would, but certainly not all.

    But it is unlikely that anyone would willingly so so if the alternative was to have gotten away with it.
    Right, and getting away with murder can be a problem, especially if there is no conscience involved in the person, right? In Jack’s case there was a conscience, but he chose to numb it with hard drugs which can make him dangerous to society.

    “1 in 25 ordinary Americans secretly has no conscience and can do anything at all without feeling guilty"?”

    ---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If Jack has already reconciled his deeds in his mind, what does my perspective of him getting away with it have to do with what he should now choose to do?
    Because we're free to have opinions and views about people who commit crimes or for that matter anything else.

    So, are you asking if, from our perspectives, justice ought to be served and if so, how should that come about?
    Yes, that could be part of a response, since he was not arrested and subject to a human justice system.


    So you're asking what Jack should to in order to not experience the consequences of his actions? What consequences are you talking about?
    Prison. Jack doesn't want to go to prison for committing murder and rape. (Interestingly enough, abut 6,000 people a year get away with murder.)


    His feelings of guilt? Are you asking what Jack should do so that he no longer feels guilty?
    He's already figured out how to numb his conscience. How wise is that?
    Last edited by eye4magic; May 20th, 2015 at 09:44 PM.
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  20. #18
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Because we're free to have opinions and views about people who commit crimes or for that matter anything else.

    Yes, that could be part of a response, since he was not arrested and subject to a human justice system.
    Well, if it's just a matter of justice and all you want is my opinion on what should be the case (as opposed to "what should Jack do"), then 1) Jack should never have done it to begin with 2) because he did it, it should be the case that he is caught and punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Prison. Jack doesn't want to go to prison for committing murder and rape. (Interestingly enough, abut [url=http://projects.scrippsnews.com/story/editorial-killers-dont-have-get-away-murder/]6,000 people a year get away with murder.)
    Ok, so if it's a matter of avoiding consequences, namely prison, then Jack should continue to do what he's doing; it seems to be keeping him out of prison.

  21. #19
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The OP is not a religious premise. Please note I posted this in the hypothetical forum for a reason. It’s not meant to be a religious debate. If anything, it’s a debate about man's conscience and when we violate our personal and/or society’s norms -- how we respond to our human conscience.
    Then why did you have to point out that his lack of a religious or spiritual moral framework? I've shown that such frameworks can actually contribute to moral failing. It doesn't have to be a religious debate if we abstractly compare different moral systems.

    Now one could make the argument that the way we respond to our conscience depends on our religious beliefs or lack thereof.
    Right and in religious people's minds human justice pales in comparison to a religious one. We see this when Catholics sold forgiveness, when Muslim extremists rape and kill women, when priests are enabled by Church leaders and even the parishioners to commit horrific crimes against children.

    If we are talking about religious vs secular justice you can see how religious people respond in the gay marriage battle here!

    So in Jack’s case, he had no particular religious beliefs and responded to his painful guilt ridden conscience by numbing it. That is an option we humans have – we can numb/bury our conscience when we violate our norms and sense of right verses wrong, at least for a while. But is that the wisest thing to do in this scenario? Personally, I don’t think numbing our conscience with drugs because we can’t or won’t deal with it is a good idea.
    Well, obviously the pain of guilt is less than the anticipated pain of prison so it's really a simple matter to decide. In fact, if he were religious, he could simply cleanse his conscience with a few visits to the priest. Since he isn't he has to live with the guilt. Do you think that his guilt would be absolved going by to prison?

    No, I don’t think all people would agree he should fess up. Maybe most people would, but certainly not all.
    Would or should? Those are two different scenarios.

    Right, and getting away with murder can be a problem, especially if there is no conscience involved in the person, right? In Jack’s case there was a conscience, but he chose to numb it with hard drugs which can make him dangerous to society.
    I think you may be getting your scenarios mixed up. Nobody wants him to get away with it but we are talking about this from Jack’s perspective. He just has to weigh his future options on life. He may even end up confessing when he's much older.


    So what is the solution to dealing with psychopaths and sociopaths? We can only deal with them in a secular manner and find and imprison them.

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    Re: What should Jack do?

    What Jack did is wrong on two levels; it is a violation of human law and also a violation of God's law. Since he has no special religious beliefs he is probably unconcerned about the second point but it is in fact important. Our consciences are a gift from God to make us realize the difference between right and wrong.

    For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
    (Romans 2:14-16 ESV)

    Jack knows that he has done wrong and to satisfy his conscience he must do whatever he can to atone for his sin. That means confessing to the police and submitting to the legal punishment he has incurred.

    His sense of guilt might motivate him to think about God and about what he will face after death. If it does he should seek God's forgiveness.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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