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  1. #21
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    because he did it, it should be the case that he is caught and punished.
    Would there be any conditions/circumstances that you think Jack should not turn himself in and go to prison?

    Ok, so if it's a matter of avoiding consequences, namely prison, then Jack should continue to do what he's doing; it seems to be keeping him out of prison.
    If his conscience is haunting him how should he deal with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Then why did you have to point out that his lack of a religious or spiritual moral framework?
    To establish neutral ground. No particular religious beliefs.

    Well, obviously the pain of guilt is less than the anticipated pain of prison
    Not necessarily. A disturbed unresolved conscience can be like living in hell 24/7 for some people. Prison could seem like Disneyland.

    I think you may be getting your scenarios mixed up. Nobody wants him to get away with it
    You mean you don’t want him to get away with it. Why should he not get away with it?

    In discussing a similar debate years ago with another debater, we had a handful of people justify why Jack should not turn himself in. They included:

    1. He could reform outside of prison on his own and prison would make it worse. Society would have to be his training ground.
    2. Let him stay a free man and if he kills again, he probably will get caught.
    3. Our judicial system is corrupt and he should not turn himself in to a corrupt system.
    4. He can decide who lives and dies, not man made laws. (I think this response and the next one was from a psychopath/sociopath)
    5. He doesn’t really have a conscience and he should just get over it and move on.

    but we are talking about this from Jack’s perspective.
    No, as stated earlier, I'm asking the question from your perspective observing his life.
    Last edited by eye4magic; May 21st, 2015 at 12:31 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Would there be an conditions/circumstances that you think Jack should not turn himself in and go to prison?
    Well, this is exactly why I've asked you to clarify what you mean when you say "What should Jack do". Of course I think Jack should turn himself in. But clearly Jack doesn't think he should turn himself in because, as you said, he wants to avoid prison.

    So what are you asking? Are you asking what Jack should do morally to ease his conscience? Are you asking what he should do practically to avoid prison? What do you mean when you ask "What should Jack do"?

    Morally, he should turn himself in because he committed a rape/murder. Practically, he should keep doing what he's doing because it's kept him out of prison so far.

  3. #23
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Are you asking what he should do practically to avoid prison? What do you mean when you ask "What should Jack do"?
    Imagine you are watching a movie scene about someone's life. You see all the circumstances that are observable. Then you observe from your theater seat an event where the main actor
    rapes and murders a women on a beach. You observe the circumstances of how he gets away with the crime. You observe how his conscience begins to haunt him and you observe him turning to drugs because he thinks he has nothing else to turn to in order to deal with the mental pain.

    As an observer, you have your own set of norms; you have your set of morals of right verses wrong. You have your own conscience that confirms to you that you would never murder or rape someone. However, from your theater seat you form an opinion of what you think the main actor should do (the movie isn't over).

    1. "Morally, he should turn himself in because he committed a rape/murder."
    2. "Practically, he should keep doing what he's doing because it's kept him out of prison so far."


    You have no opinion on how he should deal with his conscience.
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  4. #24
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Imagine you are watching a movie scene about someone's life. You see all the circumstances that are observable. Then you observe from your theater seat an event where the main actor
    rapes and murders a women on a beach. You observe the circumstances of how he gets away with the crime. You observe how his conscience begins to haunt him and you observe him turning to drugs because he thinks he has nothing else to turn to in order to deal with the mental pain.

    As an observer, you have your own set of norms; you have your set of morals of right verses wrong. You have your own conscience that confirms to you that you would never murder or rape someone. However, from your theater seat you form an opinion of what you think the main actor should do (the movie isn't over).

    1. "Morally, he should turn himself in because he committed a rape/murder."
    2. "Practically, he should keep doing what he's doing because it's kept him out of prison so far."


    You have no opinion on how he should deal with his conscience.
    ...ok. So what are you asking?

  5. #25
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    ...ok. So what are you asking?
    You already answered the question from your moral perspective and from your practical perspective.
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  6. #26
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You already answered the question from your moral perspective and from your practical perspective.
    Well, it's not necessarily my practical perspective. I'm hypothetically answering it from what I would presume his practical perspective to be, given that he wants to avoid prison.

  7. #27
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    A story just broke about the Duggar family (http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/b...n-a-year-58906).


    They're the famous 20-kid family, religious of course, whose son was found molesting girls. He was protected by his father and his Church from actual justice. I think it took over a year to report the incidents to the police.

    So what's the point of Jackís scenario when he has enablers covering his crimes?

  8. #28
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    So what's the point of Jackís scenario when he has enablers covering his crimes?
    No one enabled Jack's crime except his own justification. I guess one could argue that his numbed up conscience enabled himself so he could at least sleep at night.
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  9. #29
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    No one enabled Jack's crime except his own justification. I guess one could argue that his numbed up conscience enabled himself so he could at least sleep at night.
    I meant the Duggers' kid actually. It does appear that religious people are more susceptible in committing crimes. Are you sure your Jack is truly irreligious?

  10. #30
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I meant the Duggers' kid actually.
    You're free to start a thread on that case if it interests you.
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  11. #31
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    What we generally do when conscience goads is blame somebody else.
    It was Sally's fault she tempted me, she agreed to walk with me and being a hot blooded man I could not resist.
    Having forfilled my lust I had to silence her how could I face such a crime when I know there is so much good in me?
    Perhaps he confessed to God who forgives all to clear his conscience.
    I do not doubt there are many walking free at this minute who have murdered or worse.
    In some cases the scarred conscience fights back and remorse takes its toll , which may result in suicide.
    We all tend to justify our own actions and in the modern world we have numerous ways of doing just that.
    Hopfully the shame of a mean or displicable act improves us. Our conscience is our finest possession it alone may save us from extinction.

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  13. #32
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You're free to start a thread on that case if it interests you.
    I just might - the Dugger case is beginning to get some legs now that Huckabee has entered the fray.

    Anyway, back to your Jack, I don't understand how he could feel guilty after committing a premeditated rape and murder. He's not in a war scenario, likely doesn't hate the girl - what was his initial justification? And if he justified the act, how had things changed since to make him feel guilty about now? And could he not absolve his guilt through other means rather than sacrifice his life and go to prison?

  14. #33
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I don't understand how he could feel guilty after committing a premeditated rape and murder.
    Because he’s not a sociopath.

    sociopath.: a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopath

    And if he justified the act, how had things changed since to make him feel guilty about now?
    Humans can justify just about anything they want. Human justification doesn’t remove guilt of conscience. We can’t really control the workings of the inner conscience; but we can choose to numb it temporarily, though that has a price.

    The most obvious reason to feel guilty is that you actually did something wrong. This type of guilt may involve harm to others, such causing someone physical or psychological pain. You may also feel guilty because you violated your own ethical or moral code, such cheating, lying or stealing. Guilt over your own behavior can also be caused by doing something you swore you would never do again (such as smoking, drinking, or overeating). In each of these cases, there’s no doubt that the behavior occurred.

    It’s appropriate to feel guilty when you’ve done something wrong. Feeling the emotion of guilt for an action deserving of remorse is normal; to not feel guilty, in these cases, may be a sign of psychopathy. The problems occur when you ruminate over this guilt.
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ve-guide-guilt

    And could he not absolve his guilt through other means rather than sacrifice his life and go to prison?
    It’s yours to answer.
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  15. #34
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    Re: What should Jack do?

    Itís yours to answer.
    I think that if you had gotten away with a crime, you already have the mindset that prison isn't for you. That prison isn't something that you feel will absolve you of your guilt. And besides, what if he wanted to commit more rapes? He can't very well do that whilst in prison. So even if he isn't a sociopath (though I dispute that since it's not his first rape) I think he'd still be able to find a way to atone without the additional burden of prison. Many religions (e.g. Christianity) offer such services - the child-raping priests totally got away scot-free with nothing but a slapped wrist.

    On the other hand, the scenario is a little incomplete because we don't know if he comes from a famous or wealthy family - in that case, confessing to the police may well end up with no charges at all. The Dugger molestation story is a great example of this: he molests his own sisters (ich) AND confessed to it AND totally gets away with it -- he probably isn't even on the sex offender list. So in that scenario, religion appears to help again.

    So perhaps a religious morality doesn't prevent crime but it sure helps him to remove the guilt, if that is the purpose of your OP. In that case, don't confess and find a religion that makes you feel better about your crimes!

 

 
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