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  1. #21
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Sig, we have lots of people in our society who have mental/psychological disorders. About one in four people will experience a mental health problem at some point in their lives. They are part of our world and of life. It's OK and, yes, these people live and function in our society in different ways. Who said anything about rounding them up?
    Round up as in mentally group them together, not as in physically round them up, sorry for the bad metaphor. I find there are mental illnesses that make life very hard for people and they would prefer to get rid of them, and then there are disorders that are basically just someone being different than the norm and some folks decide they need to be "fixed" in some way. Illnesses are things you should be curing, I don't think Jenner needs to be cured, he's not sick. He's just rather strange by comparison to most of us who feel our sex is just fine.

    I don't mind saying its a disorder, its not normative, he clearly would rather be a woman so there is dissonance between how he is and how he feels. But I'd draw the line at calling it an illness or saying he needs to be changed so that he feels he is a man. If he wants to alter his body in this way, its no weirder to me than people getting other kinds of cosmetic surgery voluntarily.

    That's right and if someone believed, for example, that they had the soul evolution of a dog and wanted to live like a dog, I trust our current society could find a way of dealing with that mental condition also. We're a highly adaptable species and there's nothing wrong with understanding that some people have mental issues. That doesn't mean they can't be functional, live their life as best they can and make a contribution in some way.
    And I'd say let them pretend to be a dog so long as they are following the laws set for people. And I don't mind calling it an issue. It would only be an illness if for instance he ate poop constantly or peed on things in public. At that point his issue is going to get him in a lot of trouble and he may well need help.

    Well, as far as who pays for their support and the consequences of their mental condition is debatable.
    Sure. I am not generally in favor of government funding paying for sex change operations. Not because I don't think they should be able to have them, but its just not essential enough a service to be publicly funded. There are a lot of more basic things that we should deal with as a public good.

    You might be surprised of how many people you come in contact with over the course of a month or two who who have some type of mental disorder. You may not the like the term mental/psychological disorder (illness), but that may be a personal issue of your perception.
    Not liking things is part of why I debate.

    ---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

    Adding to the issue here...

    I recently had an argument with some trans-gendered folks about public bathrooms. What struck me about this person and their friends in the debate was how little sympathy they showed for anyone else in the issue. While I tried to sympathies with the difficulties they faced, I could not get them to sympathize with the feelings of anyone else.

    Mind you I find there is just as much a lack of sympathy for them by other segments who just see them as deviant freaks or the mentally ill.

    For me the bottom line is everyone should work to treat everyone else decently and work out accommodations that at least limit the distress others feel. If it costs you little to make someone else feel good, by all means do it. If its very costly, then weigh the good you do them against the harm you do yourself. I think if folks want to be treated like someone of a different sex, its a nice thing to do to accommodate them as far as is reasonable. But on the flip side they can't expect everyone to fully understand them or their concerns because they are very unusual.

    As to Jenner
    I find the media frenzy somewhat distasteful. It seems to bring out the worst in a lot of folks. And it shouldn't be some huge point of contention that an ex athlete wants to be a woman. It all points to some deep insecurity in people that what he is doing is important to them. For those like him, I have more sympathy that they care, its always good to know you are not alone, but for all the haters, I just find it ugly that they care about it and are so energetic in trying to attack him.
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  3. #22
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    As to Jenner
    I find the media frenzy somewhat distasteful. It seems to bring out the worst in a lot of folks. And it shouldn't be some huge point of contention that an ex athlete wants to be a woman. It all points to some deep insecurity in people that what he is doing is important to them. For those like him, I have more sympathy that they care, its always good to know you are not alone, but for all the haters, I just find it ugly that they care about it and are so energetic in trying to attack him.
    Well, the media sword cuts both ways. Plastering your face on a magazine dressed in drag is going to get a reaction. Those who throw up in their mouths and let the world know are not really at fault, because they didn't force him to dress in drag on a mag cover. I don't feel sympathy for those who in effect shove in your face their sicknesses.
    That said, you would not have heard a single word from about this guy if it his images hadn't been forced upon me with the attempt to convince me that he is a woman now.
    Well I'm not the world's most masculine man But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man And so is Bruce, fake boobs and all.

    To classify someone who refuses to be lied to as a "hater" is sort of the name of the game for the left. Personally attack the opponents so that their opinion will not be heard.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  5. #23
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    To classify someone who refuses to be lied to as a "hater" is sort of the name of the game for the left. Personally attack the opponents so that their opinion will not be heard.
    No one is lying here.

    I agree that when you participate in the circus you can't complain when you draw the attention of people for better and worse. I don't feel sorry for Jenner getting the attention, I feel disturbed that it bothers people so much. I just don't care one bit if he's a man or she's a woman or what. That many people do and the level of anger some of them express is harder for me to sympathize with than Jenner himself and I have little sympathy for it.
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  6. #24
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No one is lying here.

    I agree that when you participate in the circus you can't complain when you draw the attention of people for better and worse. I don't feel sorry for Jenner getting the attention, I feel disturbed that it bothers people so much. I just don't care one bit if he's a man or she's a woman or what. That many people do and the level of anger some of them express is harder for me to sympathize with than Jenner himself and I have little sympathy for it.
    Who is angry at Bruce Jenner? I haven't read about anyone who is, and I'm certainly not. So, please tell us who these haters are that you're talking about.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  8. #25
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Who is angry at Bruce Jenner? I haven't read about anyone who is, and I'm certainly not. So, please tell us who these haters are that you're talking about.
    Not here, but when this thread started I went and read articles on Jenner and transgender vis a vis mental health (which is how I came to realize I was wrong and that it is considered a disorder). In the post backs and comments on the Jenner articles there were people apparently in a Rage at Jenner and all trans gender people in general. Its the internet I know, but I take people at their word for lack of more info.
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  9. #26
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post

    I agree that when you participate in the circus you can't complain when you draw the attention of people for better and worse. I don't feel sorry for Jenner getting the attention, I feel disturbed that it bothers people so much.
    I don't think it does bother people nearly as much as you claim it does. What bothers people is the 24/7 in-your-face media coverage of it and the Liberal attempt to "Normalize" these people and their twisted lifestyle choices and then go about claiming everyone who doesn't think it is acceptable, ok, normal, etc are simply a bunch of "Haters".

    That is what most people object to, I would bet.

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  11. #27
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    What bothers people is the 24/7 in-your-face media coverage of it and the Liberal attempt to "Normalize" these people and their twisted lifestyle choices and then go about claiming everyone who doesn't think it is acceptable, ok, normal, etc are simply a bunch of "Haters".
    What would you prefer? That people band together and make sure these people never forget that they're abnormal? To create a world where such people can live with the assurance that they should be recognized and treated as unequal members of society?

    If that's your policy, then shouldn't we likewise prevent other "abnormal" people from being normalized too? That kids with Down Syndrome? Abnormal. That dude with that super-gross facial deformity? Abnormal. That veteran with PTSD? Abnormal.

  12. #28
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    No one is lying here.
    People aren't calling him a woman then? My mistake.




    @ Dio, a bit of brain brain storm response here, so don't seek to quote it specifically(even though I did quote you).

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    If that's your policy, then shouldn't we likewise prevent other "abnormal" people from being normalized too? That kids with Down Syndrome? Abnormal. That dude with that super-gross facial deformity? Abnormal. That veteran with PTSD? Abnormal.
    Well, we certainly should call that which is not "normal", "abnormal".. after all that is what those words mean right. (googling to check... whew.. got it right this time).

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    What would you prefer? That people band together and make sure these people never forget that they're abnormal? To create a world where such people can live with the assurance that they should be recognized and treated as unequal members of society?
    Having established that we should call that which is not normal, abnormal. The idea of creating a society that recognizes that seems to be the most sane and reasonable thing we should aim for.
    We most certainly should reject efforts to make the abnormal normal, because that is a very ignorant position to take.
    We should tell the person with no limbs they are "normal" that is just cruel. We should help that person come to grips with the reality of their situation. That is what "well adjusted" means.
    Now that doesn't mean we should therefore create a society that goes "na-nany boo bo, you got no limbs torso boy!".

    As to treatment in society, we most certainly should treat them unequally. We should give some parking spots in the front, we should put ramps out for them and pass laws targeting some of the abnormal to soften the cruelty of reality.
    I don't know about you, but I don't get a special parking space in the front reserved for me because I'm a coonass.
    I get the feeling though you were refering to a negative version of unequal treatment, and I don't think anyone would propose that the laws apply to the abnormal any different than the normal people of the world.

    ---Normalization---
    Finally, maybe I'm taking the idea of "normalizing" wrong. Normal is sort of the base line for humanity. Lets say A person of normal intelligence has an IQ of 90. Would you like the IQ of 20 to become "normal", and thus be surrounded by the mentally retarded?
    I don't think that sounds like a good idea. So, I really don't see that is how you mean it.

    Maybe normalization is being used here for the population to understand that it is "normal" to have some abnormal people in that large group?
    So, we have to understand that with 300M people in America, someone is going to think they are a grapefruit, and want to hang in a tree naked all day.
    So how should we treat that? I would say, teach your kids not to point and stare(that is rude), but we should be upset if the News media starts accepting the clearly disturbed man and his abnormal behavior as "acceptable".
    no, its not he isn't a grape fruit and we should tell our kids "it's o.k. to be a grapefruit".
    The idea of "o.k. is that it is behavior that others should emulate". If we use "O.K." to mean that the abnormal actions should be legal, I guess that may be an even greater grey area.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  14. #29
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I get the feeling though you were refering to a negative version of unequal treatment, and I don't think anyone would propose that the laws apply to the abnormal any different than the normal people of the world.
    I'll focus on this because this is really the only part relevant to my comments.

    At the end of the day, if someone has some weird, private idiosyncrasy that makes them feel comfortable in their own skin and it doesn't hurt anyone - such as, suppose, a person believing in and talking to a supposed supernatural being(s), asking them for strength and guidance, thanking them for the good things in their lives, giving audible thanks at the table in a restaurant, etc. - then there's no reason at all to make them feel bad about that. My comments are aimed at, and contextual to, people who are fond of calling people they don't understand "twisted"; people who think it's somehow morally wrong to "normalize" such people; people who do indeed seem to want to hate people that have character traits that have absolutely no impact on their own lives whatsoever.

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  16. #30
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by dio
    I'll focus on this because this is really the only part relevant to my comments.

    At the end of the day, if someone has some weird, private idiosyncrasy that makes them feel comfortable in their own skin and it doesn't hurt anyone - such as, suppose, a person believing in and talking to a supposed supernatural being(s), asking them for strength and guidance, thanking them for the good things in their lives, giving audible thanks at the table in a restaurant, etc. - then there's no reason at all to make them feel bad about that. My comments are aimed at, and contextual to, people who are fond of calling people they don't understand "twisted"; people who think it's somehow morally wrong to "normalize" such people; people who do indeed seem to want to hate people that have character traits that have absolutely no impact on their own lives whatsoever.
    In the context of the thread, we are talking about a mental illness, not just a strange habit, like whittling is not a very common place hobby.
    Certainly your not comparing religion with known mental illnesses?

    And what of when we have a recognized mental illness? You don't think some of those mental illness are twisted? Are you objecting to calling all mental illness a twisted mind in action?

    Also, please clarify what you mean by normalize.. I put out a few ideas in the last post, but I'm not sure what you mean by it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  18. #31
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    In the context of the thread, we are talking about a mental illness, not just a strange habit, like whittling is not a very common place hobby.
    Certainly your not comparing religion with known mental illnesses?
    Not at all. I'm comparing one person's weirdness to another person's weirdness.

    I don't understand Jenner's state of mind. I think it's weird. However, I think it's just as weird that grown adults actually believe in a personal god. I think it's just as weird that grown adults think Joseph Smith talked to the angel Maroni. I think it's just as weird that some people think that the bread and wine actually becomes the body of Christ. I think it's just as weird that people tell their kids that hell is a real place. Etc, etc.

    Conversely, it's probably quite safe to assume that lots of people think it's just as weird that existence itself doesn't cause me to think there is a creator, etc, etc.

    THAT's what I'm getting at. People have all kinds of weird beliefs about themselves and the world around them. But if what they think about those things doesn't hurt anyone, what good comes from reminding them that you think they're weird, except to make them feel bad for being that way?

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  20. #32
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Dio, I throughly reject the idea that you are presenting here. The VAST majority of the human population today, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of humans throughout history, believe(d) in a god of some sort.

    Therefore, by definition, it wouldn't be weird, abnormal, odd, or strange for any particular person to have this belief. Being an Atheist, again by definition, is weird, abnormal, and strange die to the fact that they are in the minority by a great percentage.

    Comparing the idea that what the overwhelmingly vast majority of people have throughout history, or do currently believe in, to something that less than .05% of the population does or experiences, isn't being honest by any objective measure.

    You might personally view being religious as strange or abnormal, but that doesn't make it so. You can't think eating carrots is odd and then apply that standard to society. However, if only 1 person out of 200 liked carrots, then it would be strange, odd, abnormal, weird. Regardless of your personal opinion.

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  22. #33
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Not at all. I'm comparing one person's weirdness to another person's weirdness.

    I don't understand Jenner's state of mind. I think it's weird. However, I think it's just as weird that grown adults actually believe in a personal god. I think it's just as weird that grown adults think Joseph Smith talked to the angel Maroni. I think it's just as weird that some people think that the bread and wine actually becomes the body of Christ. I think it's just as weird that people tell their kids that hell is a real place. Etc, etc.

    Conversely, it's probably quite safe to assume that lots of people think it's just as weird that existence itself doesn't cause me to think there is a creator, etc, etc.

    THAT's what I'm getting at. People have all kinds of weird beliefs about themselves and the world around them. But if what they think about those things doesn't hurt anyone, what good comes from reminding them that you think they're weird, except to make them feel bad for being that way?
    I see what your getting at here and I agree with the idea that your presenting. If something is just weird or novel we have to tolerate that to some extent. The idea of calling someone a queer is a direct reference (or used to be) of that recognition. But our society likes to play hot-potato with word meanings. Calling something "strange" or "queer" suddenly becomes a slur. Just look at all the names given to the mentally handicapped. They used to be called mongoloids, but that just wasn't nice. Then they were called retarded, then that became not nice. Then they became "special" then that became not nice, now they are called "special needs" or some such. You get the idea.
    That is an attempt at normalizing by criticizing people for recognizing something as not normal.

    The perspective issue Someguy points out is a valid point as well, just because I think something is "weird" doesn't make it weird. I think it is weird how anyone could like Soccer, but apparently most of the living population of the world like it so I'm really the Odd man out.

    Furthermore, the topic of this discussion isn't something that is in the grey area, it is a recognized mental disorder.
    There is a difference between saying someone just looks weird, and saying Hey, that guy has bubonic plague. It isn't normal for someone to have bubonic plague, and while they may look strange we should not seek to have such a thing be a socially acceptable condition for life. It's an illness that needs to be treated and is pretty obviously the case.

    ---Not hurting anyone---
    I don't think it is reasonable to tell one side of the discussion that they can not engage in the social warfare. Here I mean seeking to normalize something or to seek not to. If some guy can dress in drag and get breast implants and put his face on a magazine and be covered by wall to wall media. I deserve the opportunity to say "that is messed up". I'm certainly not hurting anyone either. This is not a lynch mob. So this idea about "harm" is being applied in a fairly skewed manner IMO. I don't even see why it should be brought up. Maybe as a valid defense from the state intervening, and I think you and someguy would agree on that point.. and I'm pretty open to it, but other than that I don't think it really applies to my position or to a call against normalizing the behavior of such people.


    discussion outline...
    Insert pic of the so called transgender.
    -My response-.. that is messed up, that is a dude.
    -Rebuttal- "well he isn't hurting anyone."
    -Me- "neither am I" what is your point?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  24. #34
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    People aren't calling him a woman then? My mistake.
    They are refering to gender rather than sex.

    Look, if I play a computer RPG and make a female character. You meet me in game am I a woman or a man. You would see me and interact with me as a woman. But I'm not. Are you a liar now? I don't think so. Am I lying to you? No not really.

    Jenner wants to be treated as a woman would be treated which includes saying he is a woman. That doesn't mean that we have to or that if we do we are lying. We say a movie is sweet, is it really sweet, no its a movie, are we lying, no, just using a word to convey a meaning. The meaning here is Jenner wants to identify as a woman.
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    don't mind saying its a disorder, its not normative, he clearly would rather be a woman so there is dissonance between how he is and how he feels. But I'd draw the line at calling it an illness.
    If it makes you feel better, Sig, you can consider it to be a disorder. Of course, our view or how we label something like this doesn't change the condition. Though I'm not certain his view can't change someday either.


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  26. #36
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Dio, I throughly reject the idea that you are presenting here. The VAST majority of the human population today, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of humans throughout history, believe(d) in a god of some sort. Therefore, by definition, it wouldn't be weird, abnormal, odd, or strange for any particular person to have this belief.
    Well first, you seem to be equating "common" with "normal", and associating "normal" with "good" or "desirable". If so, I point out that just because something is common does not mean it's necessarily good or desirable; nor does the fact that something is uncommon mean that is it not good or undesirable.

    Second, I'm not talking about group associations. I'm talking about behaviors. We're talking about choices. Being religious is in fact a choice. Moreover, for Christians in particular, their declaration of faith has absolutely no spiritual significance without the element of choice.

    You think it's weird that Caitlin Jenner feels like a woman and has made choices to feel comfortable in their own skin.

    For the record, I think it's weird, too.

    However, I also think it's just as weird that people choose to believe in God. I honestly can't understand how they do it, and the fact that it's not uncommon for people to do it doesn't make it any less weird to me.

    I mean, I can understand how people who were raised with it can continue to believe it. But I honestly can't understand how a grownup can actually believe that the creator of the universe hears and cares about the noises coming out of their brains, and go on to choose to talk to them at the dinner table or after beating someone half to death in an octagon.

    You think it's weird that some people don't believe in God. You think it's a choice to not believe in God, and you think my choice is weird. I take no issue with that; what people think about me matters a damn to me.

    So from this, there are two obvious questions:

    1. As it relates to the choices any person makes, what makes your incredulity concerning those choices any more important than anyone else's?

    2. Again, if those choices don't hurt anyone, what good comes from reminding them that you think they're weird, except to make them feel bad for being that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I see what your getting at here and I agree with the idea that your presenting. If something is just weird or novel we have to tolerate that to some extent. The idea of calling someone a queer is a direct reference (or used to be) of that recognition. But our society likes to play hot-potato with word meanings. Calling something "strange" or "queer" suddenly becomes a slur.

    Just look at all the names given to the mentally handicapped. They used to be called mongoloids, but that just wasn't nice. Then they were called retarded, then that became not nice. Then they became "special" then that became not nice, now they are called "special needs" or some such. You get the idea.
    That is an attempt at normalizing by criticizing people for recognizing something as not normal.
    Well, if I and large groups of people took to media and associated fundamentalist Christians with stupid, radical, Bible-thumbing, brainless hayseeds who believe dumb things for dumb reasons, wouldn't that be unfair? Wouldn't that be a bad thing? What if I called you and your fellow church members "fundies" based on that very short-sighted point of view. Wouldn't that be a slur? Isn't the world a better place without such terms? Isn't it a better place without breeding such hostility towards people who make choices we wouldn't make ourselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Furthermore, the topic of this discussion isn't something that is in the grey area, it is a recognized mental disorder.
    Well, so is depression. So is PTSD. Should we be on a campaign to remind such people that they're abnormal? Shouldn't we do all we can to prevent them from thinking that it's ok that they have depression; that they suffer from PTSD? Shouldn't we be vigilant in reminding them that it's not ok for them to be out among us "normal" folk?

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Well, if I and large groups of people took to media and associated fundamentalist Christians with stupid, radical, Bible-thumbing, brainless hayseeds who believe dumb things for dumb reasons, wouldn't that be unfair? Wouldn't that be a bad thing? What if I called you and your fellow church members "fundies" based on that very short-sighted point of view. Wouldn't that be a slur? Isn't the world a better place without such terms? Isn't it a better place without breeding such hostility towards people who make choices we wouldn't make ourselves?
    There is a difference between saying "you have a view that I disagree with" and another to say "Your behavior and mindset reflect a mental illness".
    You are comparing apples and oranges unless you are going to say that psychology has said that belief in God is a mental illness on the level of self mutilation, or if you wish to make the case that it OUGHT to be considered such.

    We are not discussing a simple alternative lifestyle like people who dress up cosplay style, we are talking about a recognizable mental disorder and one that just so happens to be self mutilating in nature.
    Do you think we should just 'accept' bulimia as an alternative lifestyle? Suicide? Self mutilation such as repeated striking of self or cutting disorders?
    Should no one ever dare point such people to psychiatric help? What if those things were put on the cover of Cosmo or some other magazine. Bulimic girl, knife cutting her wrists, her body covered in obvious scars of past self mutilations, with the cover title "look how brave she is to advocate her alternative lifestyle". Maybe have some advertising for it "don't cut corners with your self mutilations, use Ginsu! now with maximum pain salt's free!!"

    No there are alternative lifestyles, and there are mental disorders and this particular instance is clearly over the line and falls into a defined psychiatric condition.

    But no worries, we will probably soon see a revision of the psyc handbook of disorders and all that stuff will just be normal stuff.

    Your daughter cutting herself uncontrollably? Hey man, she is just fine. (coming to a Dr office near you)



    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Well, so is depression. So is PTSD. Should we be on a campaign to remind such people that they're abnormal? Shouldn't we do all we can to prevent them from thinking that it's ok that they have depression; that they suffer from PTSD? Shouldn't we be vigilant in reminding them that it's not ok for them to be out among us "normal" folk?
    First, who is saying that we should get rid of abnormal people from our society such that they are physically expelled?

    Second, we absolutely should remind people with PTSD that it is not normal and that they should seek treatment WHEN that person has the belief that it is "normal" and we should all accept it as simply an alternative lifestyle.
    This is in contrast with the nanny booboo state.

    Anything less would be enabling someone to remain sick. Like the guy who keeps bringing the 700lb woman 10 cakes a day, as she tries to eat herself to death.


    No dude, it's perfectly normal to draw your gun and put it into peoples faces every time a loud noise surprises you. (coming soon to a normalized PTSD conversation near you).

    No thanks, I will continue to correct people who would forward mental disorders as normal behavior.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  29. #38
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No thanks, I will continue to correct people who would forward mental disorders as normal behavior.
    Denial of mental illness is alive and well. Unfortunately, mental illness denial can be a powerful impediment to treatment.
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is a difference between saying "you have a view that I disagree with" and another to say "Your behavior and mindset reflect a mental illness".
    Well, again, we're talking about behaviors here. I absolutely agree that some behaviors are outright harmful and that those sorts of things should not be ignored. But as far as I can tell (and I'm certainly no doctor), the only harm coming from Jenner (and people like him/her) is that some people think their behavior is weird.

    (BTW, sometime I'll take you to meet my mother, that is if she happens to know who anyone is that day. I had more experience with abuse and mental illness by the time I was 10 than many people would want in a lifetime. I do have some sense of what "harm" looks like when it comes to mental illness.)

    I think Jenner's behavior is weird, but given that it's not hurting anyone (any more than anyone who gets cosmetic surgery is hurt, anyway) I don't think it's any more weird than the behavior of anyone who decides to have cosmetic surgery, or the behavior of anyone who decides take up weird New-Age BS, or the weird practices of a given religion of the era (up to an including letting your child die waiting on answered prayers). But as long as it's not hurting me or anyone else (including the individual), it's not my business what a person does to feel good about themselves.

    Also, I agree that understanding where the line between harm/not-harm exists can be very hard to know. As I say, I can't see where it is with Jenner except that lots of people find his behavior to be weird. Whoopie.

    So while I have the right to say that those people are weird, it doesn't change the fact that I'm kind of a dick for doing it.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Well, again, we're talking about behaviors here. I absolutely agree that some behaviors are outright harmful and that those sorts of things should not be ignored. But as far as I can tell (and I'm certainly no doctor), the only harm coming from Jenner (and people like him/her) is that some people think their behavior is weird.

    (BTW, sometime I'll take you to meet my mother, that is if she happens to know who anyone is that day. I had more experience with abuse and mental illness by the time I was 10 than many people would want in a lifetime. I do have some sense of what "harm" looks like when it comes to mental illness.)

    I think Jenner's behavior is weird, but given that it's not hurting anyone (any more than anyone who gets cosmetic surgery is hurt, anyway) I don't think it's any more weird than the behavior of anyone who decides to have cosmetic surgery, or the behavior of anyone who decides take up weird New-Age BS, or the weird practices of a given religion of the era (up to an including letting your child die waiting on answered prayers). But as long as it's not hurting me or anyone else (including the individual), it's not my business what a person does to feel good about themselves.

    Also, I agree that understanding where the line between harm/not-harm exists can be very hard to know. As I say, I can't see where it is with Jenner except that lots of people find his behavior to be weird. Whoopie.

    So while I have the right to say that those people are weird, it doesn't change the fact that I'm kind of a dick for doing it.
    Largely, I don't care about people having sex changes until they start trying to rub it in my face or deceive me. For example, I would consider it worth of a crime if I were to date a person whom I thought was a woman, and turned out to be a man in actuality(penis or no). I think that is a form of sexual harassment. In the instance being discussed it is a bit of both, the media is attempting to deceive by calling this man a woman. That falls into the harm category to me. Just as if a faith healer called himself a DR to you.

    I do think there is some harm occurring specifically deception and fraud. Anyone who purchased the magazine to see a woman, was deceived and deserves their money back

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    So while I have the right to say that those people are weird, it doesn't change the fact that I'm kind of a dick for doing it.
    You don't think the media is being a dick for parading around clearly offensive lifestyles and trying to venerate mental disorders
    But people who react to it are being a dick for voicing their opinion?



    Well, our fundamental disagreement is on if it falls into the mental illness side or just the weird side. , I would like to point out where I agree with you.

    I do agree that if it is just a weird behavior that harms no one else, then we should stay out of it(or at least tend to up to a point). I also agree that it can be hard to tell when to recognize when it passes that point.
    I personally would think it a great harm to allow a man to cut his wiener off, only to later be cured and be sans penis for life. I mean, suppose a 10 year old male was convinced he was girl inside, what would you think of the parents that cut his penis off(medically). I would think they are doing a grave injustice to the child and are as guilty of a crime as the faith healers who refused medical treatment for pneumonia. The only reason for that belief is the idea that the 10 year old may change in the future and come to realize his error. I think that is at play here as well, though with an adult maybe to a lesser degree (depending on POV).

    On the other hand, I wouldn't want to send some "faith healer" parents to jail for not getting cancer treatment or some other far less likely to be cured disease. Or in a case that would hit more to home, prosecute parents for neglect for not giving their children Vaccinations, even if their children end up being harmed by the disease they would have been vaccinated for.

    So, I hope you will note that I am not calling for any legal action to be taken against the man in question. I am only limiting my response being a dick at worst and voicing my opinion about a personal life which has been thrust into my circle. You would have heard no complaints from me had I not been forced to view this at every internet tern. I wouldn't personally classify it as being a dick, because that means anyone who voices disagreement is a dick.

    Bottom line, I'm making a distinction between calling a person a weirdo who is off in his own fantasy world being weird over there in the corner. But as soon as they are in your face, and you become a player in that weird actions, you have every right to say "get away from me weirdo" and not be a dick for doing so. You have every right to desire to be left out of any weirdo's lifestyle. I believe that is what is occurring here. I guess you don't see it that way as much.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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