Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 131
  1. #41
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Largely, I don't care about people having sex changes until they start trying to rub it in my face or deceive me. For example, I would consider it worth of a crime if I were to date a person whom I thought was a woman, and turned out to be a man in actuality(penis or no). I think that is a form of sexual harassment. In the instance being discussed it is a bit of both, the media is attempting to deceive by calling this man a woman. That falls into the harm category to me. Just as if a faith healer called himself a DR to you.
    EXACTLY. And until THAT happens, it's none of my f*cking business what they do to feel good as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You don't think the media is being a dick for parading around clearly offensive lifestyles and trying to venerate mental disorders
    Sure they are. They almost always are. So, yet again, if a person's choices don't hurt anyone, what good comes from reminding them that you think they're weird, except to make them feel bad for being that way?

  2. #42
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I personally would think it a great harm to allow a man to cut his wiener off, only to later be cured and be sans penis for life.
    But then Jenner did not have his penis removed. And either way, your argument forwards the premise that he can be cured. From what I heard, it's been determines that his condition is incurable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I mean, suppose a 10 year old male was convinced he was girl inside, what would you think of the parents that cut his penis off(medically). I would think they are doing a grave injustice to the child and are as guilty of a crime as the faith healers who refused medical treatment for pneumonia.
    A faith healer operates in contradiction to the current medical orthodoxy. Assuming the current medical orthodoxy determines that such a child would benefit from being able to become physically female instead of remaining physically male, then I don't think it's clear that it would be wrong to have the operation.

    I would say it is kind of no-win situation as the child does not "win" if he has to remain physically male in contradiction to what his actual gender identity. So the child is in a difficult situation and I don't think either particular option is a slam-dunk win or clear travesty. And I also don't think that I know enough to really second-guess any particular decision that the medical establishment signs off on. If the parents, child, and doctors feel the child will be better off with the surgery, I see no valid reason to disagree. The mere possibility that they may all be mistaken is not reason enough to disagree.

    Clearly if the medical establishment says "it's a bad idea to do that" (like it does with denying medical treatment in favor of faith healing), then I agree that "it" should not be done.

    But as far as I know, Jenner's decision was not opposed by the medical establishment and it's what he wanted to do, so I see no basis to oppose it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Bottom line, I'm making a distinction between calling a person a weirdo who is off in his own fantasy world being weird over there in the corner. But as soon as they are in your face, and you become a player in that weird actions, you have every right to say "get away from me weirdo" and not be a dick for doing so. You have every right to desire to be left out of any weirdo's lifestyle. I believe that is what is occurring here. I guess you don't see it that way as much.
    I don't. Personally I have at most a mild interest in Jenner's story and while I have become aware of what Jenner did, I was pretty successful at avoiding any direct involvement in her choice. I see a headline but then I don't read the article. I see it again and then I ignore it and click to something else. I see the cover of that magazine and then I move on.

    I consider any complaint about it being forced on you to be over-dramatic. You might not be able to ignore that it happened but beyond that, it's pretty easy to ignore.

    The fact that you don't know that he kept his penis means that you've successfully avoided learning about the details.

  3. #43
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    EXACTLY. And until THAT happens, it's none of my f*cking business what they do to feel good as a person.
    Sure, but aren't they sort of making it my business by advertising it to me and talking to me about it.

    Like, it's none of your business what goes on in my bedroom, but as soon as I start talking to you about it don't you get a right to say "dude TMI" or "Your doing it all wrong you should do it like this".

    They are literally asking for a response by advertising like this, that they don't like the response doesn't make simple disagreement hateful.
    I mean, certainly you reject the idea that you must agree with everything advertised, and that when they say "This product leaves a beautiful tan" you can say "That is messed up, it doesn't tan, she is clearly orange.".

    For that reasoning I do not accept this whole "it's none of my business" argument. The media is trying to sell it to me, and thus making it my business at least to an extent, and I think the general response is within that extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Sure they are. They almost always are. So, yet again, if a person's choices don't hurt anyone, what good comes from reminding them that you think they're weird, except to make them feel bad for being that way?
    I would say the response is proportionally correct. The "harm" is that my life is being effected, and my words are probably not even having that much effect.
    So, I don't think there is an over response here.

    I would also think that it is at least possible that hearing it from the right person may help correct the not just weird but sick behavior.



    -----------------
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But then Jenner did not have his penis removed. And either way, your argument forwards the premise that he can be cured. From what I heard, it's been determines that his condition is incurable.
    Geez, what a messed up world. they know he has a penis and insist on passing him off as a woman.
    I feel defrauded.




    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A faith healer operates in contradiction to the current medical orthodoxy. Assuming the current medical orthodoxy determines that such a child would benefit from being able to become physically female instead of remaining physically male, then I don't think it's clear that it would be wrong to have the operation.

    I would say it is kind of no-win situation as the child does not "win" if he has to remain physically male in contradiction to what his actual gender identity. So the child is in a difficult situation and I don't think either particular option is a slam-dunk win or clear travesty. And I also don't think that I know enough to really second-guess any particular decision that the medical establishment signs off on. If the parents, child, and doctors feel the child will be better off with the surgery, I see no valid reason to disagree. The mere possibility that they may all be mistaken is not reason enough to disagree.

    Clearly if the medical establishment says "it's a bad idea to do that" (like it does with denying medical treatment in favor of faith healing), then I agree that "it" should not be done.

    But as far as I know, Jenner's decision was not opposed by the medical establishment and it's what he wanted to do, so I see no basis to oppose it.
    I don't think what is done in a cosmetic surgery table would really fall into the category of an official medical assessment, or necessarily reflect standing medical opinion on the matter.
    I could probably go get a whole host of cosmetic procedures with zero or little evaluation psychologically.

    So I am not sure we share an assumption on the medical consensus on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I don't. Personally I have at most a mild interest in Jenner's story and while I have become aware of what Jenner did, I was pretty successful at avoiding any direct involvement in her choice. I see a headline but then I don't read the article. I see it again and then I ignore it and click to something else. I see the cover of that magazine and then I move on.

    I consider any complaint about it being forced on you to be over-dramatic. You might not be able to ignore that it happened but beyond that, it's pretty easy to ignore.

    The fact that you don't know that he kept his penis means that you've successfully avoided learning about the details.
    Sure, you vomit a little and move one.
    Zero effect on my life.

    But lets not pretend that it isn't being pushed into my life at all. That this is some "private" decision that I should respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    They are refering to gender rather than sex.

    Look, if I play a computer RPG and make a female character. You meet me in game am I a woman or a man. You would see me and interact with me as a woman. But I'm not. Are you a liar now? I don't think so. Am I lying to you? No not really.

    Jenner wants to be treated as a woman would be treated which includes saying he is a woman. That doesn't mean that we have to or that if we do we are lying. We say a movie is sweet, is it really sweet, no its a movie, are we lying, no, just using a word to convey a meaning. The meaning here is Jenner wants to identify as a woman.
    I do not recognize the distinction you are trying to make. The idea that sex and gender are different for a person makes no sense to me, neither do the definitions they attempt to use in that application.

    Also, 'fantasy' is not lying because of the definition of fantasy. As soon as it tries to pass for reality, it becomes lying.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think what is done in a cosmetic surgery table would really fall into the category of an official medical assessment, or necessarily reflect standing medical opinion on the matter.
    I don't think gender reassignment surgery qualifies as "cosmetic".


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sure, you vomit a little and move one.
    Vomit? I actually see no reason to be disgusted by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But lets not pretend that it isn't being pushed into my life at all.
    No more so than any other story that the media latches onto in a big way.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That this is some "private" decision that I should respect.
    Who cares if you respect it or not? And I certainly don't think it's fair to lay to hoopla primarily at Jenner's feet. He's just doing what he feels is best for himself. The fact that he's really famous and is doing something that people find interesting (whether they find it praise-worthy or bizarre) is why they media is running with this and they are doing it primarily for financial consideration.

    One could easily blame this over-exposure on Capitalism.
    Last edited by mican333; June 8th, 2015 at 08:52 AM.

  5. #45
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sure, but aren't they sort of making it my business by advertising it to me and talking to me about it.
    I suppose, in a sense. But then, in that sense, don't Christians make their incantations my business when they ask everyone in a room to bow their heads (like at my kid's school cafeteria, for example)? In that sense, if I were to tell them I think they should keep their twisted and preposterous superstitions to themselves, would that cafeteria be better or worse for it?

    As I see it, it's not really hurting me, so I just sort of go with it when it happens. If the people in the room want to pray to some deity before whatever it is the school is about to do, it doesn't bother me. I know people like to pray. I won't piss on that until someone tries to force me to pray also.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would say the response is proportionally correct. The "harm" is that my life is being effected, and my words are probably not even having that much effect.
    So, I don't think there is an over response here.
    MT, I didn't ask if things were proportionately correct. I asked WHAT GOOD COMES FROM IT (fourth time now).

  6. #46
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    MT, I didn't ask if things were proportionately correct. I asked WHAT GOOD COMES FROM IT (fourth time now).
    Sorry I wasn't more clear as to what my direct answer to that question was.
    mt- "I would also think that it is at least possible that hearing it from the right person may help correct the not just weird but sick behavior."

    So, that is the good that can come from it. Also, letting others who are not as vocal know that they can seek help as well.
    It counters the propaganda that deviant behavior is normal with truth. (that is good).

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I suppose, in a sense. But then, in that sense, don't Christians make their incantations my business when they ask everyone in a room to bow their heads (like at my kid's school cafeteria, for example)? In that sense, if I were to tell them I think they should keep their twisted and preposterous superstitions to themselves, would that cafeteria be better or worse for it?

    As I see it, it's not really hurting me, so I just sort of go with it when it happens. If the people in the room want to pray to some deity before whatever it is the school is about to do, it doesn't bother me. I know people like to pray. I won't piss on that until someone tries to force me to pray also.
    To an extent they do. Hence my proportionality point.
    I mean, if a guy stands up and asks for a moment of silence, and you start a loud anti-christian rant (all within your 1st amendment) then I would say you were being a dick because it wasn't very proportional.

    But if some guy stands up and starts pushing people over and claiming they are "Slain in the spirit" at your local cafeteria, then maybe your response wouldn't be out of line.

    Of course the background of our culture is important as well. It's pretty "traditional" to pray publicly at certain events, and thus you would be a dick for breaking tradition. That certainly doesn't apply in this case. So there is a bit of apples and oranges in play here. These two "weird" ideas may be equal to you in your mind, but they are not equal in reality of our culture.(back to that just because you think it is weird doesn't make it so point).

    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    I don't think gender reassignment surgery qualifies as "cosmetic".
    Why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Vomit? I actually see no reason to be disgusted by this.
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No more so than any other story that the media latches onto in a big way.
    you are correct... and?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Who cares if you respect it or not? And I certainly don't think it's fair to lay to hoopla primarily at Jenner's feet. He's just doing what he feels is best for himself. The fact that he's really famous and is doing something that people find interesting (whether they find it praise-worthy or bizarre) is why they media is running with this and they are doing it primarily for financial consideration.

    One could easily blame this over-exposure on Capitalism.
    I don't lay it only at his feet, I have blamed the media as well. He is responsible enough to justify opinions about him personally, without being a dick for saying as much.

    For example, our media sells sex, but I can accurately call the woman who has sex on screen a slut for doing the slut scene. She isn't excused from her personal choices just because the free market is selling it. You can blame the pimp and the whore for prostitution and still not be a dick for calling the actions out.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  7. Thanks Dionysus thanked for this post
  8. #47
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sorry I wasn't more clear as to what my direct answer to that question was.
    mt- "I would also think that it is at least possible that hearing it from the right person may help correct the not just weird but sick behavior."

    So, that is the good that can come from it. Also, letting others who are not as vocal know that they can seek help as well.
    It counters the propaganda that deviant behavior is normal with truth. (that is good).
    Well, it's just as possible that hearing it from the wrong person my worsen whatever thing might be wrong. I therefore reject your obviously reaching answer to what good it does to make sure you always remind such people that they are sick deviants. I reject it, I say! Arrrrr!

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    To an extent they do. Hence my proportionality point.
    I mean, if a guy stands up and asks for a moment of silence, and you start a loud anti-christian rant (all within your 1st amendment) then I would say you were being a dick because it wasn't very proportional.

    But if some guy stands up and starts pushing people over and claiming they are "Slain in the spirit" at your local cafeteria, then maybe your response wouldn't be out of line.

    Of course the background of our culture is important as well. It's pretty "traditional" to pray publicly at certain events, and thus you would be a dick for breaking tradition. That certainly doesn't apply in this case. So there is a bit of apples and oranges in play here. These two "weird" ideas may be equal to you in your mind, but they are not equal in reality of our culture.(back to that just because you think it is weird doesn't make it so point).
    Ah, so might makes right, yes?

    And let me elaborate on a mistake you're making that Someguy made as well.

    A thing being "normal" is not necessarily equal to that thing being "good" or "desirable". When YOU say that something is normal, there's a strong implication that the "normal" thing is good or desirable (if that's not what you mean, then why the focus on whether Jenner is "normal"?). So when you say that "they are not equal in reality of our culture", I hasten to hastily say with great hasty haste that simply because most people do a thing does not mean that the thing is necessarily good or desirable.

    Yes, it's common for people to pray, but given that there's no particular strength to any argument for any particular deity, that commonality doesn't make it any less weird for people to settle on any given one. So there, you weirdo.

  9. #48
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Why not?
    I'm not offering an opinion. I'm saying that the medical establishment does not consider them to be the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So?
    So the notion that he's doing anything patently disgusting or vomit-worthy is nothing more than your opinion. Therefore it is rejected as unsupported and unsupportable.

    That's not to say that I reject all opinions. Any opinions we share we can accept as an agreed-upon premise. For instance, we almost certainly agree that the media is pandering by over-exposing this story.

    But any opinion I don't share is rejected. Of course you may attempt to argue that you are not forwarding an opinion and argue for some kind of objective reasoning but I don't think you will succeed.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    For example, our media sells sex, but I can accurately call the woman who has sex on screen a slut for doing the slut scene.
    No, it's your opinion that she's a slut so it's not necessarily "accurate" to say that she's a slut.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    She isn't excused from her personal choices just because the free market is selling it. You can blame the pimp and the whore for prostitution and still not be a dick for calling the actions out.
    If you call someone a slut, they can certainly respond by calling you a dick. They have just as much right to engage in name-calling as you do.

    And I don't see much justification for calling Jenner any names.
    Last edited by mican333; June 8th, 2015 at 02:44 PM.

  10. #49
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Well, it's just as possible that hearing it from the wrong person my worsen whatever thing might be wrong. I therefore reject your obviously reaching answer to what good it does to make sure you always remind such people that they are sick deviants. I reject it, I say! Arrrrr!
    Well, when you say it like a pirate, it certainly is more convincing

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Ah, so might makes right, yes?
    Well, yes. The stronger an argument the more right it is .. well maybe not. a

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    A thing being "normal" is not necessarily equal to that thing being "good" or "desirable". When YOU say that something is normal, there's a strong implication that the "normal" thing is good or desirable (if that's not what you mean, then why the focus on whether Jenner is "normal"?). So when you say that "they are not equal in reality of our culture", I hasten to hastily say with great hasty haste that simply because most people do a thing does not mean that the thing is necessarily good or desirable.
    Well, on to the serious portion of this response.
    I believe it was your argument that appealed to the "weird" factor. To that the only response necessary to demonstrate non weirdness is to point to prevalence.
    You are correct that it may not necessarily make it "desirable", but then if we are going to appeal to an evolutionary POV we should think that the most prevalent is the most desirable by nature. Yes? survival of the fittest and all.

    Now in relation to my argument of a sickness, there is a very strong correlation to what is "normal" IE most prevalent, and identifying sickness.
    So, cancer is consider a sickness because it isn't prevalent. If we everyone had a giant cancer lump on their back, we would probably see that as "normal" and people missing that lump would be considered "sick".

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Yes, it's common for people to pray, but given that there's no particular strength to any argument for any particular deity, that commonality doesn't make it any less weird for people to settle on any given one. So there, you weirdo.
    The prayer portion of my response relied on social norms to establish when being a dick is occurring or not.
    Suppose I were invited to your house for dinner and I continually belched at the table, disrupting your conversation with your wife..and suppose I did this on purpose.
    Well, that is a fairly clear dick move, unless of course it is customary to do such.. then I'm being quite the gentlemen.

    Thus in relation to your previous attempt to use prayer in public as an example of being a dick, I hope that I have made my point clear. It is heavily hinged on the majority, or might making right, because it is social in nature and not moral.

    What may be causing a bit of confusion here is that you shouldn't be looking at my argument as a "moral" argument. I am arguing from medical sickness and mental health.
    Now I suppose I can't escape the moral underpinning of the idea that one ought to correct sickness, and you are free to disagree with that. Though I would struggle to understandwhy a sickness would be the preferred to health.


    --So to recap.

    Your argument has been in the context of normal vs weird. Parts of which I agree with.
    My argument is in the context of Healthy vs sick.

    Clearly there is some overlap. The guy with a face tumor is going to look "weird" and "strange", but it is the fact that he is sick that I would ask to seek treatment or offer it.
    It is on the bases that sickness should not be considered "normal", because that would lead to a sick population or even a population that sought out sickness. I think you would agree
    that we are all better off with a healthy population vs a sick one.



    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I'm not offering an opinion. I'm saying that the medical establishment does not consider them to be the same thing.
    I don't see why this would be the case

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    The goal of cosmetic surgery is to improve a person's appearance and, thus, self-esteem by changing the way she or he looks. Cosmetic surgery can be performed on any part of the face and body.
    http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-proc...n/prc-20022389

    I think I am using the term properly per above. To the extent that the medical community disagrees, they would appear to be wrong, barring some relevant reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So the notion that he's doing anything patently disgusting or vomit-worthy is nothing more than your opinion. Therefore it is rejected as unsupported and unsupportable.

    That's not to say that I reject all opinions. Any opinions we share we can accept as an agreed-upon premise. For instance, we almost certainly agree that the media is pandering by over-exposing this story.

    But any opinion I don't share is rejected. Of course you may attempt to argue that you are not forwarding an opinion and argue for some kind of objective reasoning but I don't think you will succeed.
    I think your missing the point a bit. Yes it is opinion, but we are talking about appropriateness of expressing that opinion.
    Also, you can only counter with your own opinion, so both are equally valid, even if you don't accept one and I the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, it's your opinion that she's a slut so it's not necessarily "accurate" to say that she's a slut.
    Acting like a slut, makes you a slut. This is a case where words mean things.
    All I said was doing slut things, makes you a slut.
    The truth is self evident, and not simply my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If you call someone a slut, they can certainly respond by calling you a dick. They have just as much right to engage in name-calling as you do.

    And I don't see much justification for calling Jenner any names.
    No mican, this is not engaging in name calling. This is about accurately apply definitions.
    I have already explained why the "dick" definition doesn't fit, and is thus name calling.

    You however have rejected the logic of "doing slut things, makes one a slut" and called that an opinion.
    But all of this is in the context of appropriate response, and I don't see where you have actually addressed my argument to that end.
    I think you are arguing irrelevant details of an example, instead of applying it faithfully to the situation.

    Yes, a whore can call me a dick for me calling her a whore, while she is out whoring. She is engaging in name calling, while I am accurately describing her whoring.
    BUt hey, you can't expect better behavior from a whore then name calling.

    Bringing it back to the conversation. It may be a dick move for me to ride around looking for whores in order to yell out of my window, "hey whore, stop your whoring!".
    But if a whore comes knocking on your car window, to offer you a whore ride, it isn't being a dick to say "get out of my window whore I'm not interested in your services, and you should repent from your lifestyle and seek help".

    As chris rock points out.. it is the CONTEXT the word is used.
    specifically 3:10 for those clicking.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  11. Likes Someguy liked this post
  12. #50
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think I am using the term properly per above. To the extent that the medical community disagrees, they would appear to be wrong, barring some relevant reason.
    Well, I'll take the medical community's assessment over your own.

    And the issue is not centered around the definition of "cosmetic" anyway. If the medical community agrees that gender reassignment surgery is more likely to do the patient good than harm (or is neutral enough to agree that the patient should have the right to decide for him/herself) then wether it's technically "cosmetic" doesn't really matter.

    I don't think a mere semantic debate is going to rebut this.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think your missing the point a bit. Yes it is opinion, but we are talking about appropriateness of expressing that opinion.
    Which seems about as subjective as the opinion itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also, you can only counter with your own opinion, so both are equally valid, even if you don't accept one and I the other.
    Of course my opinion is equal to yours. But the point is NEITHER opinion is valid as support in a debate. So I'm rejecting your opinion because it's not valid support, not because I hold a different opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Acting like a slut, makes you a slut. This is a case where words mean things.
    All I said was doing slut things, makes you a slut.
    The truth is self evident, and not simply my opinion.
    It most certainly is your opinion when a girl has taken the necessary actions to earn the term "slut".

    And besides that, there's a very good chance that I would disagree with you on what the minimum requirements of being slutty are.

    And our differing standards are definitely a matter of opinion.

    If you disagree, please show me an objective standard for "slut".

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No mican, this is not engaging in name calling. This is about accurately apply definitions.
    I have already explained why the "dick" definition doesn't fit, and is thus name calling.
    But you haven't explained why "slut" is not name calling.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes, a whore can call me a dick for me calling her a whore, while she is out whoring. She is engaging in name calling, while I am accurately describing her whoring.
    BUt hey, you can't expect better behavior from a whore then name calling.
    No, "whore" is name calling as in it is a derogatory term for a prostitute (similar to using a racial slur against a minority). Just pointing out that she is, in fact, a prostitute would not be name-calling.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Bringing it back to the conversation. It may be a dick move for me to ride around looking for whores in order to yell out of my window, "hey whore, stop your whoring!".
    But if a whore comes knocking on your car window, to offer you a whore ride, it isn't being a dick to say "get out of my window whore I'm not interested in your services, and you should repent from your lifestyle and seek help".
    I sincerely disagree. That response, to me, sounds very dickish. I think the appropriate response would be "No thanks" (which actually was a response I once gave when propositioned by a streetwalker).

    And of course that's just my opinion. But again, your view is no less of an opinion either.
    Last edited by mican333; June 8th, 2015 at 06:34 PM.

  13. #51
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Well, I'll take the medical community's assessment over your own.
    You have offered no support with which to educate me that it is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Of course my opinion is equal to yours. But the point is NEITHER is valid as support in a debate. So I'm rejecting your opinion because it's not valid support, not because I hold a different opinion.
    The opinion portion of the debate was very small, and is limited to the vomit portion. So you may reject it as you like, but it is not my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    It most certainly is your opinion when a girl has taken the necessary actions to earn the term "slut".

    And besides that, there's a very good chance that I would disagree with you on what the minimum requirements of being slutty are.

    And our differing standards are definitely a matter of opinion.

    If you disagree, please show me an objective standard for "slut".
    You are free of course to disagree with the meaning of words. They do have meaning though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But you haven't explained why "slut" is not name calling.
    I explained why it is not fallacious name calling. I certainly called you a name "Mican", you appear to respond to it and have no problem with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, "whore" is name calling as in it is a derogatory term for a prostitute (similar to using a racial slur against a minority). Just pointing out that she is, in fact, a prostitute would not be name-calling.
    All the names for that action are or can be "derogatory". Your opinion that this is the case here, is noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I sincerely disagree. That response, to me, sounds very dickish. I think the appropriate response would be "No thanks" (which actually was a response I gave when propositioned by a streetwalker once).

    And of course that's just my opinion. But again, your view is no less of an opinion either.
    Well, if you wish to define "dickish" then you are welcome to it. I offered an argument for why the specific point in question (not the examples) are not instances of dickish behavior, and that has not been rebutted, though you have said you do not see it.. and I can't open your eyes for you.
    So if you wish to rebut the argument, please do. If you wish to state your opinion.. I will gladly note it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But to really bring it back to the thread, I don't see much justification for calling Jenner any names.
    1) It is a valid reasonable response to the attempt to normalize and mentally disturbed behavior.
    2) It is a valid response to proportionately respond to the unsolicited injection of abnormal, mentally disturbed behavior onto those who are offended by it, or wish to have nothing to do with it, or are disinterested in it or those who wish to engage in the social warfare of normalization.
    3) It is a valid response to combating harmful behavior to self, and educate those who are ignorant or impressionable of the mentally ill behavior.
    4) It is an invited response by those seeking to effect opinions.
    *this is assuming valid and accurate name calling as opposed to fallacious name calling*
    5) Who care what you do and don't see, that is not a rebuttal to any argument or contribution to this thread.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  14. #52
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You have offered no support with which to educate me that it is the case.
    But then the burden of showing that there is something wrong with this kind of surgery is your own.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You are free of course to disagree with the meaning of words. They do have meaning though.
    I don't disagree with the definition of the word. I'm saying that when the word is accurately applied is a matter of opinion.

    We can both agree that an overly promiscuous girl qualifies as a "slut" but when a girl has become promiscuous enough to earn the term is a matter of opinion.

    What if we both observe the same action from a girl and you say "that action makes her a slut" and I say "I don't think she's quite promiscuous enough to earn that word". In that instance whether she's a slut or not is based on two opposing opinions. If you disagree, then provide an objective standard for when someone has crossed the line into being slutty.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I explained why it is not fallacious name calling. I certainly called you a name "Mican", you appear to respond to it and have no problem with it.
    Calling me "mican" is not name-calling primarily because it's not derogatory in nature or application as well as objectively accurate in its context.

    "Slut" is derogatory in nature and application and is not objectively accurate.

    I mean here's a good differentiation. Calling me a "slut" could earn you a flame infraction. Calling me "mican" would not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    All the names for that action are or can be "derogatory".
    Not inherently derogatory. "She was paid to have sex with a guy" can be a non-derogatory statement of fact. But the word "Whore" is derogatory in nature.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, if you wish to define "dickish" then you are welcome to it. I offered an argument for why the specific point in question (not the examples) are not instances of dickish behavior, and that has not been rebutted, though you have said you do not see it.. and I can't open your eyes for you.
    So if you wish to rebut the argument, please do. If you wish to state your opinion.. I will gladly note it down.
    Of course it's my opinion that your hypothetical behavior is dickish. And it's your opinion that the behavior is not dickish.

    So neither claim has valid support and therefore your claim that such behavior is not dickish fails for lack of support.

    And you certainly did not explain why your hypothetical statement to the prostitute was not dickish. You just claimed, with no support, that it wasn't.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) It is a valid reasonable response to the attempt to normalize and mentally disturbed behavior.
    Support or retract that Jenner was intentionally doing that.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    2) It is a valid response to proportionately respond to the unsolicited injection of abnormal, mentally disturbed behavior onto those who are offended by it, or wish to have nothing to do with it, or are disinterested in it or those who wish to engage in the social warfare of normalization.
    But it's not valid to lay the blame primarily on Jenner.

    And I have to say that the language you are using is overly-dramatic. Speaking for myself, I was able to click away from headlines very easily and think it's ridiculous to think this was really forced on me in a significant way. A person who has little or no interest in Jenner could easily avoid learning anything specific about the situation, like you managed to avoid learning that he kept his penis. The whole thing didn't even make me aware of anything that I, or any reasonably informed person, didn't already know - that transgendered and transexuals exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    3) It is a valid response to combating harmful behavior to self, and educate those who are ignorant or impressionable of the mentally ill behavior.
    How does name-calling achieve that?



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    4) It is an invited response by those seeking to effect opinions.
    *this is assuming valid and accurate name calling as opposed to fallacious name calling*
    An accurate assessment of a person is not name-calling.
    Last edited by mican333; June 9th, 2015 at 06:19 AM.

  15. #53
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, on to the serious portion of this response.
    I believe it was your argument that appealed to the "weird" factor. To that the only response necessary to demonstrate non weirdness is to point to prevalence.
    Well, that's not really true, is it? Up until now, everyone has been touting "normal" as if a thing being "normal" makes it automatically good (conversely, "abnormal" has been used to imply that such a thing is automatically bad). So, again, simply because many people do a thing does not mean that it is "normal" in this "automatically good" sense that you and everyone else has been using in in this thread; it just means that it's common.

    When I say that praying is "weird", I don't mean that it's necessarily good or bad; I just mean that I find it strange and I don't understand it, nor do I understand how people convince themselves that it matters. But hey, folks believe in weird things; who am I to tell them how to make their skin fit?

    But here's the thing: When I say that religious ritual is "weird" (putting aside that the act of praying itself falls squarely in the definition of "weird") there's no value judgment on my part; no urge on my part to "correct" you or anyone else. But with you and the folks on that side of the house, you feel like you DO have some sort of moral obligation to "correct" these "twisted" and "sick" individuals. You say Jenner's behavior is weird; I say praying is weird. You keep saying it causes harm, but in what way? Because you find it weird? Please.

    So, in other words, if you want to say that prayer is a good thing because it is common, then you need to show that prayer is a good thing because it is common.

  16. #54
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,073
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I do not recognize the distinction you are trying to make. The idea that sex and gender are different for a person makes no sense to me, neither do the definitions they attempt to use in that application.

    Also, 'fantasy' is not lying because of the definition of fantasy. As soon as it tries to pass for reality, it becomes lying.
    Perhaps I'm just more immersed in fantasy than you (I both play a lot of such games and have done a lot of acting). Social life is always fantasy to a degree. We all pretend to be this that or the other thing every day not to trick anyone but because that is what we want to be. A leader may put on a brave face for the troops, is he lying about his courage? A med tech might remain calm during a medical emergency, are they lying about their state of concern? A father may teach his son to avoid gambling while himself sometimes succumbs to addiction of it. Is he lying when he pretends that he is responsible?

    There are some things gender cannot do, such as have babies in a womb. But there are plenty of things it can, like wearing a dress or having a girls name. And unless you know the secret, it will make no difference to you either. A lot of people try to take one limit that is indeed objective, and say it also places more subjective limits on people. I think that is a categorical error.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  17. #55
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Well, that's not really true, is it? Up until now, everyone has been touting "normal" as if a thing being "normal" makes it automatically good (conversely, "abnormal" has been used to imply that such a thing is automatically bad). So, again, simply because many people do a thing does not mean that it is "normal" in this "automatically good" sense that you and everyone else has been using in in this thread; it just means that it's common.
    Well, to the extent that I have used the phrasing of normal, and forgive me as the debate is not slipping from my memory, I have indented it to be in the context of "healthy". So when we talk about "normal brain development" (an unrelated example), it is clearly in the context of what is healthy and not.

    Admittedly I did not directly connect the ideas of "weird" and "abnormal" and maybe I should have.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    But here's the thing: When I say that religious ritual is "weird" (putting aside that the act of praying itself falls squarely in the definition of "weird") there's no value judgment on my part; no urge on my part to "correct" you or anyone else. But with you and the folks on that side of the house, you feel like you DO have some sort of moral obligation to "correct" these "twisted" and "sick" individuals. You say Jenner's behavior is weird; I say praying is weird. You keep saying it causes harm, but in what way? Because you find it weird? Please.
    But this is a case where we are not speaking of the same kind of "weird".
    I have tried to apply the term "abnormal" and "sick" because they are health related terms...at least in how I am attempting to use them.
    You are using weird in the personal opinion and social arena context.

    The distinction being, it is one thing to say "that persons face looks weird" and another to say "That persons face is distorted because he is sick, ie not healthy, ie suffering from an affliction that is interfering with normal healthy development and function".

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    So, in other words, if you want to say that prayer is a good thing because it is common, then you need to show that prayer is a good thing because it is common.
    I want to concede that the most literal use of the term "weird" does perfectly describe prayer, because it specifically addresses the supernatural.

    That said, to the extent weird is used to mean uncommon, I think I have made my case for that not being true, and I don't think you are challenging that part.
    But your challenge for me to support that it is "good" appears to me to be beyond anything I was claiming or any point I was trying to make.

    My claim was that what is common in humanity is pretty much the baseline for what is considered healthy. (see my cancer lump example). Unless you can appeal to some intended design that is.
    To that prayer is indeed very common, and thus pretty safe to equate with a normal, healthy mental state.. just like the belief in God is so prevalent that calling it a disease or evidence of a sick mind, is to call that natural development of most of the world "sick".
    Such a claim could be dismissed without a good argument for it being presented... so, as I am not making the argument, it isn't really my burden. You may as well be claiming that people with two legs are sick because they are supposed to have 3.
    On the other hand, the case has been made for why Giners condition is reflective of mental illness, and that goes beyond a simple "it's uncommon" argument.

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Perhaps I'm just more immersed in fantasy than you (I both play a lot of such games and have done a lot of acting). Social life is always fantasy to a degree. We all pretend to be this that or the other thing every day not to trick anyone but because that is what we want to be. A leader may put on a brave face for the troops, is he lying about his courage? A med tech might remain calm during a medical emergency, are they lying about their state of concern? A father may teach his son to avoid gambling while himself sometimes succumbs to addiction of it. Is he lying when he pretends that he is responsible?
    Some times yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    There are some things gender cannot do, such as have babies in a womb. But there are plenty of things it can, like wearing a dress or having a girls name. And unless you know the secret, it will make no difference to you either. A lot of people try to take one limit that is indeed objective, and say it also places more subjective limits on people. I think that is a categorical error.
    I do not recognize the distinction between gender and sex.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  18. Thanks Dionysus thanked for this post
  19. #56
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But your challenge for me to support that it is "good" appears to me to be beyond anything I was claiming or any point I was trying to make.

    My claim was that what is common in humanity is pretty much the baseline for what is considered healthy. (see my cancer lump example). Unless you can appeal to some intended design that is.
    To that prayer is indeed very common, and thus pretty safe to equate with a normal, healthy mental state.. just like the belief in God is so prevalent that calling it a disease or evidence of a sick mind, is to call that natural development of most of the world "sick".
    First, thanks for the clarifications.

    Ok, now let's get to the meat of this thing. Please note that - while I did use the term "good" - I also used the term "desirable" and I pointed out that you seem to be equating "normal" with "common", and associating "normal/common" with "desirable". So I don't see where your clarifications here have affected that. It seems patently clear that - in your mind - if something is "common" it is necessarily "desirable"; and the inverse is true when something is uncommon. As I said, commonality doesn't make a thing good or desirable. So simply because a thing is common - such as prayer - doesn't at all mean that it's indicative of a healthy mental state. Militant Islam is common in Iraq, but I think you would agree that it isn't desirable. That in itself is enough to completely undercut the idea that because prayer is common, it is "pretty safe to equate with a normal, healthy mental state".

    Now, having said that, it comes down to whether the thing in question itself is harmful. Do I think that MT going to church and praying in church on Sunday is harmful? Absolutely not. MT is a good guy and takes great pains day in and day out to be a helpful and friendly person. Do I think the militant Muslim going to the mosque and praying for the strength to see through with his/her suicide bombing resulting in the death of infidels is harmful? Absolutely.

    So I think you need something far stronger than this "common = healthy and desirable / uncommon = sick and undesirable" argument.

  20. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  21. #57
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Ok, now let's get to the meat of this thing. Please note that - while I did use the term "good" - I also used the term "desirable" and I pointed out that you seem to be equating "normal" with "common", and associating "normal/common" with "desirable". So I don't see where your clarifications here have affected that. It seems patently clear that - in your mind - if something is "common" it is necessarily "desirable"; and the inverse is true when something is uncommon. As I said, commonality doesn't make a thing good or desirable. So simply because a thing is common - such as prayer - doesn't at all mean that it's indicative of a healthy mental state. Militant Islam is common in Iraq, but I think you would agree that it isn't desirable. That in itself is enough to completely undercut the idea that because prayer is common, it is "pretty safe to equate with a normal, healthy mental state".
    Your point here about common = desirable, or rather how you are framing my point, is pretty much right. When you reduce my point about health, here I am pointing to recognized mental illnesses, to common = desirable, that is about as good a reasoning I can offer for it's current recognized state as a mental illness.
    As a note, and you are aware of this already, I am appeal to the medical community authority and not my christian values.
    Still, if that is indeed the standard by which something is called an mental illness, and I am open to correction here, then I am correctly apply the term "Mentally ill" and that is enough for my point to be sustained, though it may not directly or conclusively negate your point.

    Now on prayer.
    Well, I should not have said equate, because you are right, it is very possible for the mentally ill to pray. I should have said that it is consistent with mental health.
    so, just like working out is consistent with a healthy life style, working out doesn't mean your lifestyle is healthy, one could be smoking car tires, and shooting draino all while at the gym.

    So, your again correct that prayer doesn't equate to a healthy mental state. That said, prayer is still very different than the mental illness we are speaking of, because it is specifically not consistent with a healthy mental state while prayer is very much consistent with a healthy mental state.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Now, having said that, it comes down to whether the thing in question itself is harmful. Do I think that MT going to church and praying in church on Sunday is harmful? Absolutely not. MT is a good guy and takes great pains day in and day out to be a helpful and friendly person. Do I think the militant Muslim going to the mosque and praying for the strength to see through with his/her suicide bombing resulting in the death of infidels is harmful? Absolutely.

    So I think you need something far stronger than this "common = healthy and desirable / uncommon = sick and undesirable" argument
    This "desirable" portion is sort of tripping me up.
    I have been speaking in terms of healthy, and I stand by the idea that common = our idea of healthy. I am interested to see your idea of what the basis for "healthy" is, which I think is basically the harm principle if I have to guess.
    In terms of healthy, there are some instances where a recognized diseases would be "desirable". World War Z for an extreme example. (where zombies left diseased persons alone.. clearly desirable to be diseased when being chased by millions of zombies (spoiler).

    Still, if I can establish "healthy" then I think desirable naturally follows unless we are willing to say that unhealthy is a desirable state.
    I just don't think that is a very sound position to hold, thus supporting the opposite(or my position).

    So, sort of tying some of this in. Mitigating factors are very relevant here. Such as my working out example. There are some actions that are consistent with health, and some that are not.
    Prayer is consistent with health, while self mutilation is not.
    Unless there is a mitigating factor. Such as in the case of prayer of Muslims, they are praying for murder and that is not consistent with a healthy mind. Not the prayer, but the topic. Just like speaking is consistent with health, but not speaking about self put downs and insults.



    Final note
    * I need to wrap this up, because I'm seriously forgetting a lot of what has been said forgive any repeats. *
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  22. #58
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Social life is always fantasy to a degree. We all pretend to be this that or the other thing every day not to trick anyone but because that is what we want to be... And unless you know the secret, it will make no difference to you either.
    Here is a white woman who claims to be African American: http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-new...gates/33533026 She may have just felt more comfortable with black people and black culture, and began self-identifying as black. She is now President of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    Should everyone just leave her alone and accept that she is black, because that is how she self-identifies and what she wants to be? Or now that people know the secret, is calling her out on it a legitimate response for blacks generally, the NAACP specifically, and for the government of Spokane to which she misrepresented herself on an application to serve on a city ombudsman commission?
    Last edited by evensaul; June 13th, 2015 at 06:34 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  23. #59
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CHbGLtBWwAA6lmX.jpg large.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	17.5 KB 
ID:	3747
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  24. #60
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I should not have said equate, because you are right, it is very possible for the mentally ill to pray. I should have said that it is consistent with mental health.

    So, your again correct that prayer doesn't equate to a healthy mental state. That said, prayer is still very different than the mental illness we are speaking of, because it is specifically not consistent with a healthy mental state while prayer is very much consistent with a healthy mental state.
    How? How is praying an indicator of mental health? How is it consistent with mental health? Is not praying indicative of mental disease? How? Is not praying inconsistent with mental health?

    I'm not sure where you were going with the rest so I've no included it.

 

 
Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sex with the Mentally Challenged
    By latentorganiza in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: February 18th, 2008, 12:18 AM
  2. Bruce Willis
    By Turtleflipper in forum Entertainment
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: June 29th, 2007, 08:00 AM
  3. Mentally retarded
    By disinterested in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: June 1st, 2006, 12:36 PM
  4. Reality vs. The Mentally Ill
    By KneeLess in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: March 22nd, 2004, 06:05 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •