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  1. #61
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I should not have said equate, because you are right, it is very possible for the mentally ill to pray. I should have said that it is consistent with mental health.
    so, just like working out is consistent with a healthy life style, working out doesn't mean your lifestyle is healthy, one could be smoking car tires, and shooting draino all while at the gym.
    But even if one has bad habits to counter the good habits, the activity of working out increases your physical health even if you overall aren't physically healthy.

    So are you saying that praying increases mental health in the same manner that working out increases physical health?

    If so, can you support that assertion?

    I can accept the claim that many people who are mentally healthy pray but that does not mean that praying is a causal factor in good mental health. I mean most mentally healthy people in Western society watch TV but that does not mean that watching TV is mentally healthy.

    Nor can something be considered healthy based on the fact that most people do it. One can certainly argue that Americans in general have developed some unhealthy habits that most people do (like not exercising enough and having a bad diet).
    Last edited by mican333; June 14th, 2015 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #62
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    How? How is praying an indicator of mental health? How is it consistent with mental health? Is not praying indicative of mental disease? How? Is not praying inconsistent with mental health?
    In my last post I retracted the idea that prayer is an indicator of mental health. I said it is consistent with menatl health.
    I gave the example of working out as an example of HOW it is consitent. You can work out and be healthy, and you can not work out and still be healthy. But working out doesn't make you unhealthy etc. I actually thought it was pretty clear and not shure where I am failing to communicate here.

    As to if prayer is a indication of mental illness, you will have to support that assertion.

    The idea that prayer is inconsitent with mental health, is to say that the vast majority of the world is mentally ill.
    I would say that places a very large burden on you to support such an accusation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But even if one has bad habits to counter the good habits, the activity of working out increases your physical health even if you overall aren't physically healthy.
    O so you want to go that way with it, get so specific as to strain any kind of example.
    sure lets play.

    working out doesn't automatically mean it is a healthy activity. You could actually harm yourself if you do it wrong.
    Just like praying for the murder of others would be a negative acitivy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So are you saying that praying increases mental health in the same manner that working out increases physical health?
    It can, and has. Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If so, can you support that assertion?
    I have stopped many unhealthy activities both mental and physical with the healp of prayer.

    If you want some more psycological specific medical paper, then you must first show that prayer is connected to a mental illness (like dio).
    Because there simply is no reason to even question the benifits of prayer to humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I can accept the claim that many people who are mentally healthy pray but that does not mean that praying is a causal factor in good mental health. I mean most mentally healthy people in Western society watch TV but that does not mean that watching TV is mentally healthy.
    O.k. stop, go back, read my response to dio. Look specifically at where I retracted the idea that prayer is an indication of metnal health.
    My positin that I am forwarding is that it is CONSISTENT. I don't wish to repeat this over and over as you guys debate a retraced point.

    Consistent means that it CAN BE NEUTRAL. Neither causing harm or helping.
    Thus the angle you guys are taking that it is a mental illness(dio) or that there is some reason to question it's positive effects on humanity
    are pretty much irrelevant, because this is all a response to how prayer IS NOT COMPARABLE TO THE MENTAL ILLNESS BEING DISCUSSED.


    so, iether support that prayer is a recognized mental illness, or the comparison FAILS. I will not discuss it further.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  3. #63
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Note: I moved your last response to the top as we may have been miscommunicating on what exactly was being challenged and the last response clears that up the best.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    so, iether support that prayer is a recognized mental illness, or the comparison FAILS. I will not discuss it further.
    I was challenging your comparison of prayer to working out.

    Working out is an activity that generally improves one's (physical) health.

    It has not been supported that prayer is an activity that generally improves one's (mental) health.

    And I am not arguing that prayer is detrimental. My position is that the effects of prayer are inconclusive (although I doubt it causes any real harm - at worst it's a waste of time).



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    working out doesn't automatically mean it is a healthy activity. You could actually harm yourself if you do it wrong.
    Just like praying for the murder of others would be a negative acitivy.
    But generally speaking, working out makes one healthier.

    Whether prayer has a general healthy effect is up for debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I have stopped many unhealthy activities both mental and physical with the healp of prayer.
    That's anecdotal and therefore not support.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because there simply is no reason to even question the benifits of prayer to humanity.
    Well, I am questioning it. Can you support the claim that is of a particular benefit?
    Last edited by mican333; June 14th, 2015 at 03:03 PM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It has not been supported that prayer is an activity that generally improves one's (mental) health.
    Here's some support:

    New research suggests that individual expectations appear to influence how prayer impacts mental health.
    http://psychcentral.com/news/2014/08...lth/73602.html


    For example, when it comes to easing symptoms of anxiety-related disorders, prayer doesn’t have the same effect for everybody. Baylor University researchers found that what seemed to matter more was the type of attachment the praying individual felt toward God.

    Those who prayed to a loving and supportive God whom they thought would be there to comfort and protect them in times of need were less likely to show symptoms of anxiety-related disorders — symptoms such as irrational worry, fear, self-consciousness, dread in social situations, and obsessive-compulsive behavior — than those who prayed but did not expect God to comfort or protect them.

    The study is published in the journal Sociology of Religion.



    Psychologist sees benefits of prayer, meditation on mental health
    http://news.emory.edu/stories/2013/0...er/campus.html

    Mahlet Endale, a licensed psychologist and the suicide prevention coordinator at Emory's Counseling and Psychological Services Department, has witnessed first-hand the benefits of religion and prayer or mediation on one's mental health.
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  6. #65
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    In my last post I retracted the idea that prayer is an indicator of mental health. I said it is consistent with menatl health.
    Right, and I'm asking how it's consistent with mental health. Consider that if the act of praying is perfectly available to people irrespective of their mental health (and it certainly seems to be), how is prayer consistent with mental health as opposed to being inconsistent with mental disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As to if prayer is a indication of mental illness, you will have to support that assertion.
    Why on earth would I have to do that? Where did I assert that it is?

  7. #66
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Right, and I'm asking how it's consistent with mental health. Consider that if the act of praying is perfectly available to people irrespective of their mental health (and it certainly seems to be), how is prayer consistent with mental health as opposed to being inconsistent with mental disorder?
    Because it is not an indication of mental illness itself, it is thus consistent with mental health. If it were not, seeing someone praying would equate to seeing a mental disorder. That certainly is not the opinion of psychology.

    Comparing that with recognized mental illness' behavior is apples and oranges. Calling it "weird" doesn't fix that problem.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  8. #67
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because it is not an indication of mental illness itself, it is thus consistent with mental health. If it were not, seeing someone praying would equate to seeing a mental disorder. That certainly is not the opinion of psychology.

    Comparing that with recognized mental illness' behavior is apples and oranges. Calling it "weird" doesn't fix that problem.
    Well, I think you don't understand the point I'm making. I'm not arguing that praying is indicative of a mental disorder, nor am I arguing that people like Jenner do not have a mental disorder. Again - fourth time now - I'm talking about behaviors, and reasons to or not to "correct" those behaviors on someone else's behalf.

    But before I go on to talk about that some more, I want to point out something that shows exactly why I'm against being dicks towards people who do things we find weird. The ONLY reason I said praying is weird to me (and it is) is to show you - someone who prays - a little bit of what it feels like to be regarded by a friend as "weird" because of something that you - a Christian - chooses to do.

    Do I think it's weird that so many people feel this freaky urge to magically transmit their thoughts to some invisible being who floats around in the aether? Yes I do. ABSOLUTELY I do.

    Does the fact that so many people think they're magically transmitting their thoughts to some invisible being who floats around in the aether hurt me at all? No it doesn't.

    So what good does it do for me to point that out to someone, other than ME getting the satisfaction that 'By golly I let them know what I think about it!' - no good whatsoever.

    It doesn't "cure" you of this imperative you feel to pray; I didn't miraculously become the "right person" that you needed to hear it from; I didn't do a damn thing except to let you know that I think YOU are weird.

    Now, it may be that this bothers you, or it might be that you think that it's funny and a little sad that I'm so very ignorant of your relationship with God, or it could be that you're indifferent to my opinion altogether. But in any case, it doesn't improve either your relationship with prayer nor my relationship with you to let you know that I think it's weird that you pray. So there's not a damn reason at all for me to say it to you except to be some kind of pompous, enlightened dick condescending to you about something that enriches your life. This is EXACTLY why I've gotten out of the business of antagonistic debate, and why I participate on this site so infrequently these days.

    Now, having said that, whether or not Jenner's behavior's are indicative of a mental disorder (and I think that it is, btw), all I'm interested in are the behaviors and whether or not the behaviors hurt me or anyone else. If the behavior DOES cause harm, then prudence dictates intervention; no question (murderous psychopathy, for example). But then not all behaviors require some sort of intervention. Some behaviors require nothing more than support (PTSD, for example), while still others don't necessarily require anything from anyone (some types of depression, for example). Some people with mental disorders can go their whole lives living with it, and some people can't function without therapy along the way. But in any case - mental disorder or no - I'm not going to be a part of the outrage industry unless I genuinely have a reason to be outraged.

    Do I think what Jenner did is weird? Absolutely. I don't understand how he could feel that strongly to become a she. But, none of my business if a person chooses to do that.

    Do I think that praying is weird? Yep. I don't understand how grownups can think that praying is anything like what they think it is. But, none of my business if a person chooses to do that.

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  10. #68
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    So what good does it do for me to point that out to someone, other than ME getting the satisfaction that 'By golly I let them know what I think about it!' - no good whatsoever... I don't understand how he could feel that strongly to become a she. But, none of my business if a person chooses to do that.
    Are you claiming there is no value in recognizing social norms and deviations from them? Do you believe that everyone should say "none of my business"?
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  11. #69
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Are you claiming there is no value in recognizing social norms and deviations from them? Do you believe that everyone should say "none of my business"?
    Nope.

  12. #70
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Nope.
    You're offering only what you think YOU should do, and we shouldn't infer that you are making a suggestion on how others should act? Really?? If so, then why should anyone care what behavior you think is best for you?
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  13. #71
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're offering only what you think YOU should do, and we shouldn't infer that you are making a suggestion on how others should act?
    Yep. But what you asked if I'm suggesting isn't what I'm suggesting. That's why I said "nope" to your question "Are you claiming there is no value in recognizing social norms and deviations from them? Do you believe that everyone should say "none of my business"?"

  14. #72
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Yep. But what you asked if I'm suggesting isn't what I'm suggesting. That's why I said "nope" to your question "Are you claiming there is no value in recognizing social norms and deviations from them? Do you believe that everyone should say "none of my business"?"
    Then what are you suggesting, Dio? Make a claim and support it. I've read (well, skimmed) your posts, and can't find any real position other than your personal opinion on what is right for you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #73
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Then what are you suggesting, Dio? Make a claim and support it. I've read (well, skimmed) your posts, and can't find any real position other than your personal opinion on what is right for you.
    Well, if you can't be bothered to do more than skim my posts, why should I be bothered to help you understand what I have and haven't said?

  16. #74
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, if you can't be bothered to do more than skim my posts, why should I be bothered to help you understand what I have and haven't said?
    You're being that crotchety old man again. Okay, I've read them. I don't see that you're offering anything beyond your own personal opinions. What significant point am I missing?

    Maybe this:?

    "At the end of the day, if someone has some weird, private idiosyncrasy that makes them feel comfortable in their own skin and it doesn't hurt anyone - such as, suppose, a person believing in and talking to a supposed supernatural being(s), asking them for strength and guidance, thanking them for the good things in their lives, giving audible thanks at the table in a restaurant, etc. - then there's no reason at all to make them feel bad about that. My comments are aimed at, and contextual to, people who are fond of calling people they don't understand "twisted"; people who think it's somehow morally wrong to "normalize" such people; people who do indeed seem to want to hate people that have character traits that have absolutely no impact on their own lives whatsoever."

    Who are these people fond of calling people they don't understand "twisted" and think it's morally wrong to "normalize" such people? And what makes you think that the "twisted" as a group, and as promoted by the media as courageous role models don't have an impact on the lives of the larger society or the individual. Isn't that the reason liberals promote such people as Jenner, in an effort to HAVE an impact? Their aim is to legitimize and "normalize" a broad spectrum of deviant behavior, from what I can tell.
    Last edited by evensaul; June 16th, 2015 at 06:48 PM.
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  18. #75
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by dio
    Well, I think you don't understand the point I'm making. I'm not arguing that praying is indicative of a mental disorder, nor am I arguing that people like Jenner do not have a mental disorder. Again - fourth time now - I'm talking about behaviors, and reasons to or not to "correct" those behaviors on someone else's behalf.
    I think you are correct, I didn't understand the point you are making. Specifically, while I know that you are talking about behaviors and reasons to or not to correct them(see end of post for a direct comment on that), I did not recognize or see where you were acknowledging my point about it being a mental illness.
    Thus when you spoke of prayer, I concluded that you were acting as though it is on the same level as a mental illness.

    As you do recognize that we are discussing a mental illness, wouldn't choosing another recognized mental illness where we (as a society or generally) do not interfere, make your point more clear, rather than choosing prayer and being confused as to how prayer is not inconsistent with a mentally well person?
    Is gender dis-morphia more like other self mutilators like cutters or is it like ____ insert your best example of a recognized mental illness where we discourage intervention and comments.

    I actually don't know of any mental illness where discouraging the behavior is less preferable to enabling. Maybe that is part of our missing each other. I kinda see the fact that we are discussing a mental illness as sufficient reason for some level of intervention. Sure we may not put them all in strait jackets and rubber rooms, but enabling seems to be a pretty obvious "should not do" thing. I don't see why this one is or should be considered an exception from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    But before I go on to talk about that some more, I want to point out something that shows exactly why I'm against being dicks towards people who do things we find weird. The ONLY reason I said praying is weird to me (and it is) is to show you - someone who prays - a little bit of what it feels like to be regarded by a friend as "weird" because of something that you - a Christian - chooses to do.
    I appreciate the point you are making, and I have conceded early in the thread that IF one is simply appealing to ones own ignorance or lack of understanding of an action as a reason to "be a dick", then they shouldn't do it.
    I can not stress the following enough. What you describe, and I agree with, is not the argument that is being forwarded by me.

    I am not saying "I am unfamiliar with that lifestyle choice, we should be dicks to them".
    I am saying "That person is exhibiting the symptoms of a recognized mental illness, and we should not accept that as "normal" behavior or venerate their behavior as a society.

    Another thing I can not stress enough is that the idea of "being a dick" is totally undefined and I specifically addressed why it is not the case here.

    So, I'm not sure why you keep saying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Do I think it's weird that so many people feel this freaky urge to magically transmit their thoughts to some invisible being who floats around in the aether? Yes I do. ABSOLUTELY I do.
    Here we have jumped between meanings of "weird". Weird as in strange simply does not apply in reality to prayer and people praying it is simply to damn common. It's like you saying you think cars a weird.
    sure, that is your prerogative, but your just **** out of luck because those things are fracking everywhere. P.S. I still think it's weird that we drive on parkways, and park in driveways. I too am **** out of luck.
    You may think it's weird, but it really isn't strange at all. Common is the opposite of strange.

    The other more official definition of weird, absolutely applies because all it means is that the thing is "spiritual". So yea.. prayer is spiritual.


    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    So what good does it do for me to point that out to someone, other than ME getting the satisfaction that 'By golly I let them know what I think about it!' - no good whatsoever.
    I think what I have described does one very specific good, and that is to fight the cultural war that seeks to make such mental illnesses "normal".
    That is enabling the mentally ill and should be commonly and easily recognized as a bad or not desirable thing (not because it's weird).
    Again, the context of this is not Christians out on some paparizee hunt to root out the "weird" people they just don't agree with, and scream in their face "na nany booboo". This is a reasonable response to an in your face propaganda campaign seeking make a specific mental illness be viewed as "normal healthy behavior".
    This is the equivalent of any normal man trying to make it through this video. *FYI and side note, I've decided to start a fund to pay for any liberal to get said "training"

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    It doesn't "cure" you of this imperative you feel to pray; I didn't miraculously become the "right person" that you needed to hear it from; I didn't do a damn thing except to let you know that I think YOU are weird.
    Interesting position. So, should I expect you to apply this logic to all of your positions? I should no longer expect to see your reasoned arguments against things you think are wrong and weird, because it doesn't do any good and won't change anyone?
    Now you may think that I am incorrect to throw in the "wrong" aspect, because such a position would be ridiculous after all, but in truth I am not arguing based on "weird" factor.. I'm arguing from truth factors.

    so either you must agree that it does some good and there is some point about arguing against that which you think is wrong, or you can maintain your position and I will respectfully watch as you live out your days in peace and quite (which you deserve regardless), knowing that you are no hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    This is EXACTLY why I've gotten out of the business of antagonistic debate, and why I participate on this site so infrequently these days.
    I would like to make note for the record of all humanity, that the world has gotten even more crazy since you withdrew. I suspect a direct link to the increased insanity in the world, and your life choice of the clean living that keeps you looking so young.
    Again, said peace is well deserved on your part so the remaing sane world spins, pinning for the days of yore when Dio reigned supreme and kept mass insanity at bay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Now, having said that, whether or not Jenner's behavior's are indicative of a mental disorder (and I think that it is, btw), all I'm interested in are the behaviors and whether or not the behaviors hurt me or anyone else. If the behavior DOES cause harm, then prudence dictates intervention; no question (murderous psychopathy, for example). But then not all behaviors require some sort of intervention. Some behaviors require nothing more than support (PTSD, for example), while still others don't necessarily require anything from anyone (some types of depression, for example). Some people with mental disorders can go their whole lives living with it, and some people can't function without therapy along the way. But in any case - mental disorder or no - I'm not going to be a part of the outrage industry unless I genuinely have a reason to be outraged.
    I totally dig the anti outrage industry vibe. It is one thing to see all the spin in the media and reject it quietly, but speaking out against the propaganda is not the outrage industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Do I think what Jenner did is weird? Absolutely. I don't understand how he could feel that strongly to become a she. But, none of my business if a person chooses to do that.
    Its good that you find mental illnesses weird. I do as well. The major concern here is two fold.
    1) The danger to society is what it becomes when it starts thinking mental illnesses are "normal" and maybe even heroic. (re-cutter on the cover of time example)
    2) The danger this illness poses to the person with it through self mutilation. A person with dsymorphia like this may not cut himself and insert his couch cushions so that he can have home made breasts.
    But we should see the surgeon who does such an operation on the mentally ill, the same as we would a surgeon who does liposuction on an anorexic. At best it is enabling the mentally ill,at worst it is gross malpractice.

    Both of these are VERY different than simply "weird" behavior like driving cars.
    Wouldn't you think it more than just weird if a surgeon did lypo suction on an anorexic?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Do I think that praying is weird? Yep. I don't understand how grownups can think that praying is anything like what they think it is. But, none of my business if a person chooses to do that.
    Re-previous comments on this.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  19. #76
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're being that crotchety old man again.
    You bring out the crotchety old man in me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think you are correct, I didn't understand the point you are making. Specifically, while I know that you are talking about behaviors and reasons to or not to correct them(see end of post for a direct comment on that), I did not recognize or see where you were acknowledging my point about it being a mental illness.
    Thus when you spoke of prayer, I concluded that you were acting as though it is on the same level as a mental illness.

    As you do recognize that we are discussing a mental illness, wouldn't choosing another recognized mental illness where we (as a society or generally) do not interfere, make your point more clear, rather than choosing prayer and being confused as to how prayer is not inconsistent with a mentally well person?
    Is gender dis-morphia more like other self mutilators like cutters or is it like ____ insert your best example of a recognized mental illness where we discourage intervention and comments.

    I actually don't know of any mental illness where discouraging the behavior is less preferable to enabling. Maybe that is part of our missing each other. I kinda see the fact that we are discussing a mental illness as sufficient reason for some level of intervention. Sure we may not put them all in strait jackets and rubber rooms, but enabling seems to be a pretty obvious "should not do" thing. I don't see why this one is or should be considered an exception from this.


    I appreciate the point you are making, and I have conceded early in the thread that IF one is simply appealing to ones own ignorance or lack of understanding of an action as a reason to "be a dick", then they shouldn't do it.
    I can not stress the following enough. What you describe, and I agree with, is not the argument that is being forwarded by me.

    I am not saying "I am unfamiliar with that lifestyle choice, we should be dicks to them".
    I am saying "That person is exhibiting the symptoms of a recognized mental illness, and we should not accept that as "normal" behavior or venerate their behavior as a society.

    Another thing I can not stress enough is that the idea of "being a dick" is totally undefined and I specifically addressed why it is not the case here.

    So, I'm not sure why you keep saying it.


    Here we have jumped between meanings of "weird". Weird as in strange simply does not apply in reality to prayer and people praying it is simply to damn common. It's like you saying you think cars a weird.
    sure, that is your prerogative, but your just **** out of luck because those things are fracking everywhere. P.S. I still think it's weird that we drive on parkways, and park in driveways. I too am **** out of luck.
    You may think it's weird, but it really isn't strange at all. Common is the opposite of strange.

    The other more official definition of weird, absolutely applies because all it means is that the thing is "spiritual". So yea.. prayer is spiritual.



    I think what I have described does one very specific good, and that is to fight the cultural war that seeks to make such mental illnesses "normal".
    That is enabling the mentally ill and should be commonly and easily recognized as a bad or not desirable thing (not because it's weird).
    Again, the context of this is not Christians out on some paparizee hunt to root out the "weird" people they just don't agree with, and scream in their face "na nany booboo". This is a reasonable response to an in your face propaganda campaign seeking make a specific mental illness be viewed as "normal healthy behavior".
    This is the equivalent of any normal man trying to make it through this video. *FYI and side note, I've decided to start a fund to pay for any liberal to get said "training"


    Interesting position. So, should I expect you to apply this logic to all of your positions? I should no longer expect to see your reasoned arguments against things you think are wrong and weird, because it doesn't do any good and won't change anyone?
    Now you may think that I am incorrect to throw in the "wrong" aspect, because such a position would be ridiculous after all, but in truth I am not arguing based on "weird" factor.. I'm arguing from truth factors.

    so either you must agree that it does some good and there is some point about arguing against that which you think is wrong, or you can maintain your position and I will respectfully watch as you live out your days in peace and quite (which you deserve regardless), knowing that you are no hypocrite.


    I would like to make note for the record of all humanity, that the world has gotten even more crazy since you withdrew. I suspect a direct link to the increased insanity in the world, and your life choice of the clean living that keeps you looking so young.
    Again, said peace is well deserved on your part so the remaing sane world spins, pinning for the days of yore when Dio reigned supreme and kept mass insanity at bay.


    I totally dig the anti outrage industry vibe. It is one thing to see all the spin in the media and reject it quietly, but speaking out against the propaganda is not the outrage industry.



    Its good that you find mental illnesses weird. I do as well. The major concern here is two fold.
    1) The danger to society is what it becomes when it starts thinking mental illnesses are "normal" and maybe even heroic. (re-cutter on the cover of time example)
    2) The danger this illness poses to the person with it through self mutilation. A person with dsymorphia like this may not cut himself and insert his couch cushions so that he can have home made breasts.
    But we should see the surgeon who does such an operation on the mentally ill, the same as we would a surgeon who does liposuction on an anorexic. At best it is enabling the mentally ill,at worst it is gross malpractice.

    Both of these are VERY different than simply "weird" behavior like driving cars.
    Wouldn't you think it more than just weird if a surgeon did lypo suction on an anorexic?


    Re-previous comments on this.
    Meh, I've said my piece. I'm outties.

  20. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  21. #77
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The major concern here is two fold.
    1) The danger to society is what it becomes when it starts thinking mental illnesses are "normal" and maybe even heroic.
    What do you mean by "normal"? If you mean "common" it will never be considered normal because such people will always be a distinct minority. If you mean "normal" as if it's something that happens with some regularity, then it is normal. It's normal that a portion of the population suffers from certain mental illnesses. And I see no reason to be worried that people will think mental illness is more heroic than in the past. Now, how one deals with a mental illness can be considered heroic and while I don't' know enough about Jenner's decision to say that his/her decision is "heroic", I think a reasonable argument can be made that it is.

    But I don't really see much a reasonable concern about this leading to any real harm. It doesn't seem reasonable to argue that this will lead to an increase in people choosing to have this illness.

    Or are you concerned that people who suffer from the same illness will make the same decision? If so, you will need to show that that is a bad thing before it's a reasonable concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    2) The danger this illness poses to the person with it through self mutilation. A person with dsymorphia like this may not cut himself and insert his couch cushions so that he can have home made breasts.
    But we should see the surgeon who does such an operation on the mentally ill, the same as we would a surgeon who does liposuction on an anorexic. At best it is enabling the mentally ill,at worst it is gross malpractice.
    What if I were to tell you that given Jenner's INCURABLE condition, having the surgery was the best option for living a happy, healthy life?

    I'm not saying that I know for a fact that is the case but I suspect that it is so if you are going to present the position that it was mistake for Jenner to have the surgery and the doctor was wrong for doing it, you will need to support that.
    Last edited by mican333; June 17th, 2015 at 10:38 AM.

  22. #78
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Meh, I've said my piece. I'm outties.
    Thanks man, I appreciated your time and efforts. I can't give you rep again for the thread.
    This topic is sooo last week anyway



    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    What do you mean by "normal"?
    Normal, as in an engine firing on all cylinders is normal. An engine running with one cylinder non functioning is "not normal".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    What if I were to tell you that given Jenner's INCURABLE condition, having the surgery was the best option for living a happy, healthy life?
    Then you would be asked to support that mental conditions are incurable, and if that incurables is a product of the mental illness or our lack of tools to treat it.
    I would also ask if the fact that no current cure exists means that one should stop seeking a cure, and how you apply that answer to the questions of cancer and other illnesses etc.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  23. #79
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    What if I were to tell you that given Jenner's INCURABLE condition, having the surgery was the best option for living a happy, healthy life?
    Is "curable" even the right question to ask? Is Mindtrap's thinking he's a man a "condition"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindtrap
    Normal, as in an engine firing on all cylinders is normal. An engine running with one cylinder non functioning is "not normal".
    This seems kinda b.s., honestly. You know that every human is female until your body stops making you female and ****s up your other X chromosome, right?

    The whole question of "normality" seems overwrought. Red hair is abnormal, are you offended by that, too?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    This seems kinda b.s., honestly. You know that every human is female until your body stops making you female and ****s up your other X chromosome, right?
    Yea, so?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    The whole question of "normality" seems overwrought. Red hair is abnormal, are you offended by that, too?
    What does "offense" have to do with the position I have forwarded? Have I ever appealed to my personal offense level as any evidence or point at all? If not, why are you bringing it up?

    I do not see a response to anything I have forwarded here.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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