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  1. #81
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Normal, as in an engine firing on all cylinders is normal. An engine running with one cylinder non functioning is "not normal".
    But then Jenner is not an engine and the analogy is too imprecise to effectively communicate what "normal" means in respect to human beings.

    So why don't you tell me what "normal" is for a human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Then you would be asked to support that mental conditions are incurable, and if that incurables is a product of the mental illness or our lack of tools to treat it.
    And conversely, if one claims that Jenner's mental condition is curable, they would have to support that as well. And as far as I know you have not supported it, but you have used it as a premise in your argument:

    "But we should see the surgeon who does such an operation on the mentally ill, the same as we would a surgeon who does liposuction on an anorexic. At best it is enabling the mentally ill,at worst it is gross malpractice."

    IF the condition is not curable, then it's reasonable to conclude that having the surgery was the best option for Jenner and your argument is invalid. And you have not supported that the condition is curable.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would also ask if the fact that no current cure exists means that one should stop seeking a cure, and how you apply that answer to the questions of cancer and other illnesses etc.
    But then I did not say that we shouldn't seek a cure.
    Last edited by mican333; June 21st, 2015 at 10:45 AM.

  2. #82
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But then Jenner is not an engine
    You noticed that right away huh

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    and the analogy is too imprecise to effectively communicate what "normal" means in respect to human beings.

    So why don't you tell me what "normal" is for a human being.
    No, the analogy was very fit to do exactly what it was intended to do, which is to explain the SENSE in which I was using "normal" which is what you asked for.

    Mican " What do you mean by "normal"?"

    That is what I mean by normal, now "what is normal" is a different question. One which I don' believe is necessary for me to forward my position.
    My position has been that it isn't normal, so unless you are going to forward that mental illnesses are "normal" then it is a pretty uncontroversial point in my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    And conversely, if one claims that Jenner's mental condition is curable, they would have to support that as well. And as far as I know you have not supported it, but you have used it as a premise in your argument:

    "But we should see the surgeon who does such an operation on the mentally ill, the same as we would a surgeon who does liposuction on an anorexic. At best it is enabling the mentally ill,at worst it is gross malpractice."

    IF the condition is not curable, then it's reasonable to conclude that having the surgery was the best option for Jenner and your argument is invalid. And you have not supported that the condition is curable.
    Well, I have an actual argument I am forwarding, and this whole section is a hypothetical argument. If you say this, if I say that.
    Please focus on my actual argument. If you feel curability is relevant to my actual argument please explain how.

    Given your stated belief in non-curability, I would like to see support for that being an element in any decision made. As far as I know it was not a factor in any of the operations, which I am told did not include a lopadictaoffame.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But then I did not say that we shouldn't seek a cure.
    And I didn't really speak to curability at all.. funny that.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  3. #83
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, the analogy was very fit to do exactly what it was intended to do, which is to explain the SENSE in which I was using "normal" which is what you asked for.
    And yet I still don't know what you mean by "normal" so it doesn't do the job it was intended to.

    So I'm just going to use my best guess and you can correct me if I'm wrong. A malfunctioning engine is atypical (most engines aren't malfunctioning) and therefore is not part of the norm. So basically, anything that's in the minority is not normal. And mentally ill people are in the minority and therefore not normal.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My position has been that it isn't normal, so unless you are going to forward that mental illnesses are "normal" then it is a pretty uncontroversial point in my argument.
    The argument I was rebutting was that there's a danger of people thinking mental illness is normal. Given that people are unlikely to think the mentally ill are no longer in the minority because of Jenner, your argument does not hold up.

    And of course if I misstated your argument because I did not understand your definition of "normal", please tell me exactly what you mean.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I have an actual argument I am forwarding, and this whole section is a hypothetical argument. If you say this, if I say that.
    Please focus on my actual argument. If you feel curability is relevant to my actual argument please explain how.
    My point is that IF Jenner's condition is incurable, then it's likely a medically sound option to make him as happy and he can be given that he will always have the condition, which reasonably includes letting him have the surgery. Given that, your claim that the doctors are engaging in malpractice does not hold up.

    And since you have not supported that the condition is curable, you likewise have not supported that it is malpractice.

    In other words your malpractice argument contains the premise that Jenner has better options than having the surgery. I don't really see any support for that.

    So I guess I'll ask you to SUPPORT or RETRACT that the doctor is engaging in malpractice by performing surgery on Jenner that is not in his/her best interest.

  4. #84
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap
    Yea, so?
    So every male is "not normal", since every male is just a damaged female.

    What does "offense" have to do with the position I have forwarded? Have I ever appealed to my personal offense level as any evidence or point at all? If not, why are you bringing it up?

    I do not see a response to anything I have forwarded here.
    The response is that your notion of normality is so overbroad (redheads and all males being not normal) that it makes no difference whether a feature, property, or entity is "not normal".
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  5. #85
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    So every male is "not normal", since every male is just a damaged female.
    How do you figure that?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    The response is that your notion of normality is so overbroad (redheads and all males being not normal) that it makes no difference whether a feature, property, or entity is "not normal".
    That is a straw-man and your mischaracterization (without any clear or obvious connection to what I have actually argued).

    I have no clue how you get that redheads aren't "normal" from me saying that a mental illness is not normal.
    The latter seems pretty easy to see, the former.. I have no idea how you get that, much less get it from my position.
    I think you are just pulling a JJ here.

    If you think that being mentally ill is equivalent to being a red head, then I have to disagree and question your reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And yet I still don't know what you mean by "normal" so it doesn't do the job it was intended to.
    I don't think it's hard to grasp, and have no better way of communicating it than I already have.
    As you don't understand my argument, I will not be responding to your misunderstanding responses to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Given that, your claim that the doctors are engaging in malpractice does not hold up.
    What.. given your "if X" assumptions?
    That is as weak of an argument as one can get.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And since you have not supported that the condition is curable, you likewise have not supported that it is malpractice.

    In other words your malpractice argument contains the premise that Jenner has better options than having the surgery. I don't really see any support for that.

    So I guess I'll ask you to SUPPORT or RETRACT that the doctor is engaging in malpractice by performing surgery on Jenner that is not in his/her best interest.
    Well, you did get the part right where I said the word "malpractice".
    Maybe you should review where I said that and explain why you think I need to support it as though it is central to my argument.

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post548566
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  6. #86
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    How do you figure that?
    Because it logically follows from the relevant biological facts about how males develop.

    I have no clue how you get that redheads aren't "normal" from me saying that a mental illness is not normal.
    As you articulate here:

    Lets say A person of normal intelligence has an IQ of 90. Would you like the IQ of 20 to become "normal", and thus be surrounded by the mentally retarded?

    Most people aren't redheads. So redheads aren't normal.

    If you think that being mentally ill is equivalent to being a red head, then I have to disagree and question your reasoning.
    Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder (it's listed in DSM-V), and its treatment protocol includes cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery. In terms of your notion of normality (which essentially reduces to commonness rather than expressing any normative claim--e.g. if everyone were to cut off both their legs at age 15, then it would be normal to do so according to your usage of "normal"), a person with gender dysphoria is indeed non-normal. But this tells us nothing about the medical or ethical appropriateness of the given treatments--viz. the treatments Jenner is currently undergoing.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think it's hard to grasp, and have no better way of communicating it than I already have.
    The primary attributed of a malfunctioning engine is that it's malfunctioning - it doesn't work as well as the other engines. But malfunctioning does not inherently mean "not normal" for if a majority of the engines malfunctioned, malfunctioning engines would be normal. So the analogy, on the surface, is bad and doesn't give me much insight into what you mean by "not normal". Again, my best guess is that because malfunctioning engines are actually in the minority, you are using a definition regarding the minority (as in a minority of people are mentally ill).

    So I have explained why that is my best guess and you have not shown that it isn't the definition that you mean so I'm going with that.

    And in response, I say that it's not reasonable to think that people will conclude that the mentally ill are no longer in the minority because of Jenner and therefore your concern about that is invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As you don't understand my argument, I will not be responding to your misunderstanding responses to it.
    I offered by best rebuttal based on my best understanding of your definition given the analogy.

    And if you don't want to respond to my rebuttal, then my rebuttal stands until it is responded to.

    So point 1 is rebutted until you choose to rebut my rebuttal.





    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What.. given your "if X" assumptions?
    That is as weak of an argument as one can get.
    Just saying "it's weak" is not a rebuttal.

    So my argument stands until you form an actual rebuttal.

    But let me clarify my argument a bit.

    IF the condition is incurable, then the surgery is likely not malpractice. Therefore any argument that it is malpractice requires the premise that the condition is curable (for it's not, then it's likely not malpractice to have the surgery). So until you support that the condition is curable, you cannot support that having the surgery is malpractice.
    In other words, until you can show that the condition is curable, it's reasonable to hold that it might not be curable and therefore it might not be malpractice and therefore the argument that it is malpractice does not hold up.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, you did get the part right where I said the word "malpractice".
    Maybe you should review where I said that and explain why you think I need to support it as though it is central to my argument.

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post548566
    Your argument is there are two major concerns, one of them being inappropriate surgery. An inappropriate surgery IS malpractice. If the doctor should not do the surgery but does anyway, he is committing malpractice.

    I asked that you support or retract that it's malpractice and you have declined to support at this point. I will consider the claim that the surgery is inappropriate (malpractice) to be retracted and therefore point 2 does not hold up.
    Last edited by mican333; June 22nd, 2015 at 07:37 AM.

  8. #88
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    IF the condition is incurable, then the surgery is likely not malpractice. Therefore any argument that it is malpractice requires the premise that the condition is curable (for it's not, then it's likely not malpractice to have the surgery). So until you support that the condition is curable, you cannot support that having the surgery is malpractice.
    The mental disorder of transgenderism is curable. Psychiatric disorders can be cured. It's a matter of one's mental psychological state. There are different methods people can be cured of mental disorders. Spiritual transformation is also another method that can and has cured people of mental disorders. Here's some support for that method.

    Transsexual Returns to Original Gender After Relationship With Christ

    "Because the real truth that Christ is alive is the fact that you see a transformed life. And so what happened in my life is that when I finally... got down on my knees and was working through these things many years after I had accepted Christ – probably 10 to 15 years after I accepted Christ – I finally felt that I was broken enough as a man that I got on my knees and prayed."

    He says that one day he had a vision while praying with his psychologist. He saw Jesus pick up a baby version of himself, look at him and say, "You will now be saved with me forever." From that point on he could feel the Holy Spirit moving and guiding him in his life.

    Today, Heyer says he no longer struggles with his gender identity and uses his testimony to speak out in support of those who have similar struggles and against those who advocate sex reassignment surgery as the solution to the gender identity problems.

    Then there's this:

    Treatment of GID

    Gender Identity Disorder in children is a highly treatable condition. The majority of children treated by those with expertise in this area are able to embrace the goodness of their masculinity or femininity. Over the past 30 years, Dr. Kenneth Zucker, a psychologist and head of the gender-identity service at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, has worked with about 500 preadolescent gender-variant children. In his studies, 80 percent grow out of the behavior, but 15 to 20 percent continue to be distressed about their gender and may ultimately change their sex. Dr. Zucker tries to "help these kids be more content in their biological gender" by encouraging same-sex friendships and activities like board games that move beyond strict gender roles."
    http://www.childhealing.com/articles...tydisorder.php
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 22nd, 2015 at 10:54 AM.
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  9. #89
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    Because it logically follows from the relevant biological facts about how males develop.
    That isn't helping me understand what you mean by that, you are just restating what I asked you to clarify.
    Clearly you think it follows, but how exactly is not apparent to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    As you articulate here:

    Lets say A person of normal intelligence has an IQ of 90. Would you like the IQ of 20 to become "normal", and thus be surrounded by the mentally retarded?

    Most people aren't redheads. So redheads aren't normal.
    Without going back and refreshing my memory. I think that was in the context of explaining how we can even know if something is in fact a mental illness.

    So the question I have for you is, do you disagree with my point that prevalence is a factor in our knowledge of if something is diseased or if it is acting as it should.

    You seem to be not only disagreeing with that first premise, but also extrapolating far beyond what I have actually said.

    when you answer that I think you will probably satisfy my curiosity of how you see mental retardation the same as a being a red head, or a recognized mental illness the same as say.. skin color.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder (it's listed in DSM-V), and its treatment protocol includes cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery. In terms of your notion of normality (which essentially reduces to commonness rather than expressing any normative claim--e.g. if everyone were to cut off both their legs at age 15, then it would be normal to do so according to your usage of "normal"), a person with gender dysphoria is indeed non-normal. But this tells us nothing about the medical or ethical appropriateness of the given treatments--viz. the treatments Jenner is currently undergoing.
    So, then are you are are you not equating being red head with being mentally ill?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLIVE
    But this tells us nothing about the medical or ethical appropriateness of the given treatments--viz. the treatments Jenner is currently undergoing.
    I made a case for that, you are welcome to respond to it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  10. #90
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The mental disorder of transgenderism is curable. Psychiatric disorders can be cured. It's a matter of one's mental psychological state. There are different methods people can be cured of mental disorders.
    Please support this with scientific evidence.

    And there is are pretty solid arguments that it is not a mental disorder at all. From the American Psychological Association.

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Spiritual transformation is also another method that can and has cured people of mental disorders. Here's some support for that method.
    If you can support this scientifically, go ahead. But on its surface, it sounds pretty similar to the discredited practice of trying to change sexual orientation by "praying the gay away".

  11. #91
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Please support this with scientific evidence.
    Science studies the material world. When a person experiences a sudden, blink-of-an-eye, spiritual transformation (going from one state of existence to a different state) it is a phenomena which science does not study. Despite the fact that science does not study how a person experiences a spiritual transformation that changes them (beliefs, habits, mental state, perspectives, gender identity, etc.), does not negate the very obvious fact of their observable changed state.

    If you’re interested in the subject, science does study through the field of neurotheology, the neurological activity of the brain during spiritual experiences.
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 22nd, 2015 at 02:50 PM.
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  12. #92
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The primary attributed of a malfunctioning engine is that it's malfunctioning - it doesn't work as well as the other engines. But malfunctioning does not inherently mean "not normal" for if a majority of the engines malfunctioned, malfunctioning engines would be normal. So the analogy, on the surface, is bad and doesn't give me much insight into what you mean by "not normal". Again, my best guess is that because malfunctioning engines are actually in the minority, you are using a definition regarding the minority (as in a minority of people are mentally ill).
    Congrats, you just made a point I made several pages ago.
    What your pointing out is not a problem specific to engines, it is an issue for anything we talk about in the area of sickness.

    That problem however, doesn't break the analogy, which you seem set on refusing as acceptable no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So I have explained why that is my best guess and you have not shown that it isn't the definition that you mean so I'm going with that.
    you can only ever go with you best guess, but the idea that I have some burden to continue to correct you I think is wrong.
    of course you can just keep repeating "I have rebutted X, and thus it stands until it is corrected".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And in response, I say that it's not reasonable to think that people will conclude that the mentally ill are no longer in the minority because of Jenner and therefore your concern about that is invalid.
    That was not my argument, so try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I offered by best rebuttal based on my best understanding of your definition given the analogy.

    And if you don't want to respond to my rebuttal, then my rebuttal stands until it is responded to.

    So point 1 is rebutted until you choose to rebut my rebuttal.
    I suppose I could respond that my argument stands until you respond to it and not some straw-man, but that wouldn't be very productive.
    Then again, I don't see how this portion is productive either.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Just saying "it's weak" is not a rebuttal.

    So my argument stands until you form an actual rebuttal.
    Sure, your argument that IF I am wrong, then I'm wrong can stand all day long.
    But I think circular arguments like that tend to roll rather than stand

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    IF the condition is incurable, then the surgery is likely not malpractice. Therefore any argument that it is malpractice requires the premise that the condition is curable (for it's not, then it's likely not malpractice to have the surgery). So until you support that the condition is curable, you cannot support that having the surgery is malpractice.
    In other words, until you can show that the condition is curable, it's reasonable to hold that it might not be curable and therefore it might not be malpractice and therefore the argument that it is malpractice does not hold up.
    You can keep repeating this, but until you answer my direct question to this point... like pages ago, then I really can't add anything more.
    It was something along the lines of curable now, or logically possible curable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Your argument is there are two major concerns, one of them being inappropriate surgery. An inappropriate surgery IS malpractice. If the doctor should not do the surgery but does anyway, he is committing malpractice.

    I asked that you support or retract that it's malpractice and you have declined to support at this point. I will consider the claim that the surgery is inappropriate (malpractice) to be retracted and therefore point 2 does not hold up.
    My argument was that we should see it the same as lypo on an anorexic, because it is similar in relevant ways.
    Malpractice is when they do procedures against common medical practices. I think my argument is a bit larger than that,
    You should note that I made a stronger and a weaker claim, i'm curious as to your response on the "enabling" portion.

    Finally, you have a strange idea of "doesn't hold up". Just saying "support or retract" doesn't mean an argument doesn't hold up. An actual rebuttal must be offered for the claim that it "doesn't hold up" to be evidenced.
    Arguments don't automatically fail simply because they don't receive un-ending support or that every demand is not met.

    Of course 5 pages in, I don't think we are anywhere close to the original issue, now we are on tangent upon tangent and much context is being lost.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Congrats, you just made a point I made several pages ago.
    What your pointing out is not a problem specific to engines, it is an issue for anything we talk about in the area of sickness.

    That problem however, doesn't break the analogy, which you seem set on refusing as acceptable no matter what.
    I get the sickness reference, but that still does not clarify what you mean by "normal".

    So being sick is not normal? Why? Again, my best guess is that because sick people are unusual as in they are in the minority. So by that definition, "normal" means to be in the majority.

    And in response to your argument:

    1) The danger to society is what it becomes when it starts thinking mental illnesses are "normal" and maybe even heroic.

    I say that it's not reasonable that people will begin to think mental illness is normal as people will always realize that sick people are in the minority.

    That is my rebuttal and you have the burden to offer a counter-rebutal or it stand.

    If you want to rebut it as being a misrepresentation of your argument, that's fine. In fact, that's what you did.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That was not my argument, so try again.
    And in response I say SUPPORT OR RETACT that that was not your argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You can keep repeating this, but until you answer my direct question to this point... like pages ago, then I really can't add anything more.
    It was something along the lines of curable now, or logically possible curable.
    Curable now, of course.

    It doesn't make much sense for Jenner to consider medical options that don't currently exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My argument was that we should see it the same as lypo on an anorexic, because it is similar in relevant ways.
    We should see it as EXACTLY the same as lypo because of the similarities? So we should ignore the differences between the two?

    Or do you mean that we should see them as somewhat similar due to their similarities (a more reasonable argument). I agree, but so what? Despite the similarities, I recognize a difference between the two that makes me oppose the lypo and support Jenner. I'm not going to ignore that difference just because there are similarities between the two.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Malpractice is when they do procedures against common medical practices.
    And you have not shown that that is what is happening with Jenner.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You should note that I made a stronger and a weaker claim, i'm curious as to your response on the "enabling" portion.
    Typically "enabling" (in the negative context) means helping/allowing one continue an unhealthy pattern. So of course that includes the premise that Jenner is on an unhealthy path and therefore seeking the surgery is an unhealthy option for him. So my response is SUPPORT OR RETRACT that the surgery would be unhealthy for Jenner.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Finally, you have a strange idea of "doesn't hold up". Just saying "support or retract" doesn't mean an argument doesn't hold up.
    If the person does not support his argument in the face of "support or retract", they must retract it and therefore it doesn't hold up.

    I have to assume that you are familiar enough with ODN rules to not challenge that.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    An actual rebuttal must be offered for the claim that it "doesn't hold up" to be evidenced.
    Arguments don't automatically fail simply because they don't receive un-ending support or that every demand is not met.
    They don't need "unending" support but they do need support. Just one piece will do

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Of course 5 pages in, I don't think we are anywhere close to the original issue, now we are on tangent upon tangent and much context is being lost.
    In my last post I clearly identified both of your arguments that I'm referring to and the rebuttals I offer to them. If you lost the thread of the debate in the very next post, that's on you.
    Last edited by mican333; June 22nd, 2015 at 08:41 PM.

  14. #94
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I get the sickness reference, but that still does not clarify what you mean by "normal".

    So being sick is not normal? Why? Again, my best guess is that because sick people are unusual as in they are in the minority. So by that definition, "normal" means to be in the majority.

    And in response to your argument:

    1) The danger to society is what it becomes when it starts thinking mental illnesses are "normal" and maybe even heroic.

    I say that it's not reasonable that people will begin to think mental illness is normal as people will always realize that sick people are in the minority.

    That is my rebuttal and you have the burden to offer a counter-rebutal or it stand.

    If you want to rebut it as being a misrepresentation of your argument, that's fine. In fact, that's what you did.




    And in response I say SUPPORT OR RETACT that that was not your argument.




    Curable now, of course.

    It doesn't make much sense for Jenner to consider medical options that don't currently exist.

    1. Being sick does not make someone abnormal. Being abnormal may be a sign of an illness.
    2. When we claim someone has abnormal behavior, it does not automatically indicate that someone is ill. However, it is a set of indicators that can be used to determine whether some illness exists.
    3. Illness is more of a subjective decision than abnormal. Abnormal is purely a statistical accounting of someone's behavior. Jenner's desire to change his gender is easily classified as abnormal. I am hoping this isn't something that needs further support.
    4. Once we have identified behavior as abnormal, it can then be classified as benign or designated as symptoms of some illness. Now, whatever the behavior, we really only look at the concept of illness based on harm to that individual or tangible harm to people who come into contact with that individual. For instance, someone may feel sad. Someone may even feel sad for a prolonged period of time. However, if this person's sadness is not interfering with holding down a job, making/keeping friends, family then it is probably not an illness.
    http://www.psnpaloalto.com/wp/wp-con...ity-Rating.pdf
    As you can see here, the way we define the seriousness of depression is by defining its functional domain.
    5. So, I am not going to diagnose Jenner. I cannot. I have neither the skills, qualifications, nor access. However, if we can conclude his behavior is abnormal (even if not an illness), then we can conclude that his behavior should be subject to more serious examination. By denying that his behavior is, in any way, abnormal, then we pre-conclude that he has no mental illness. Yet, we know that his behavior is abnormal and his family relationships are outwardly dysfunctional.

    So, what I am saying is that attempting to normalize Jenner's behavior covers up any disorder he may have or that others like him may have. There is this rush to accept him and his behaviors and even to call it normal. However, nothing is normal about his behavior and there are signs that mental illness exists. Again, I don't want to diagnose or claim they do exist. By covering up abnormal behavior though, I don't think we serve people's best interests when there are possible mental health issues left unaddressed.
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    3. Illness is more of a subjective decision than abnormal. Abnormal is purely a statistical accounting of someone's behavior. Jenner's desire to change his gender is easily classified as abnormal. I am hoping this isn't something that needs further support.
    I do not challenge that at all. In fact, it's the argument I'm attributing to MT although he claims, without support, that I am misrepresenting his argument.

    So I absolutely agree that being in the minority qualifies as "abnormal" and as Jenner's desire is a desire clearly not shared by the majority, it is an "abnormal" desire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    4. Once we have identified behavior as abnormal, it can then be classified as benign or designated as symptoms of some illness. Now, whatever the behavior, we really only look at the concept of illness based on harm to that individual or tangible harm to people who come into contact with that individual. For instance, someone may feel sad. Someone may even feel sad for a prolonged period of time. However, if this person's sadness is not interfering with holding down a job, making/keeping friends, family then it is probably not an illness.
    And therefore we should only really judge Jenner's decision based on whether it's a harmful decision or not. If he's doing something harmful to himself then we have a reason to oppose it - out of concern for his well-being if nothing else. On the other hand, if he's making a healthy or at least neutral decision given his circumstances, then we have no reason to oppose it (or at least I'm not aware of a reason that's not based in it being an unhealthy choice).

    And a few posts up, I presented support from the APA that transgenderism is not considered an inherently harmful condition and therefore have supported that Jenner's decision is not inherently harmful to himself.


    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, if we can conclude his behavior is abnormal (even if not an illness), then we can conclude that his behavior should be subject to more serious examination.
    The only reason that a behavior should be examined more is if the prior examination is inadequate. I'm not sure that that is the case.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    By denying that his behavior is, in any way, abnormal, then we pre-conclude that he has no mental illness. Yet, we know that his behavior is abnormal and his family relationships are outwardly dysfunctional.
    I'm actually not aware of his family relationships (I'm not interested enough in it to learn about it) but one will need to tie the dysfunction directly tied to his transgender status to make the case. If the problem is primarily their bad reaction to his transgenderism then the problem is their attitude. If the problem is tied to him trying to hide his transgenderism then the problem is denying his "true self" as opposed to being transgendered


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, what I am saying is that attempting to normalize Jenner's behavior covers up any disorder he may have or that others like him may have.
    You defined "abnormal" as a "purely a statistical accounting of someone's behavior."

    I'm unaware of any attempt to say that his behavior is not in a statistical minority.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    There is this rush to accept him and his behaviors and even to call it normal.
    Again, no one has said that he's not statistically in the minority.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, nothing is normal about his behavior and there are signs that mental illness exists. Again, I don't want to diagnose or claim they do exist. By covering up abnormal behavior though, I don't think we serve people's best interests when there are possible mental health issues left unaddressed.
    And I reject the notion that there is an attempt to cover up the fact that his behavior is abnormal.

    And I've seen no support that Jenner is actually unhealthy due to his gender issues. A person who has cancer and is transgendered has health issues but they are not due to being transgendered. Likewise if Jenner is mentally ill and transgendered, it does not mean that he's ill due to being transgendered. So I think there needs to be support that his decision is actually unhealthy before it's reasonable to be concerned that we are downplaying something that is actually unhealthy.

    And besides it, it's almost certainly a subjective notion on when something is being underplayed or overplayed. I mean one could argue that unless someone mentions Jenner's mental illness (if there is one) in every single sentence that mentions him, they are underplaying his illness or one could argue that just saying it once is enough. Where's the line of when it's "too little"?

  16. #96
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And therefore we should only really judge Jenner's decision based on whether it's a harmful decision or not. If he's doing something harmful to himself then we have a reason to oppose it - out of concern for his well-being if nothing else. On the other hand, if he's making a healthy or at least neutral decision given his circumstances, then we have no reason to oppose it (or at least I'm not aware of a reason that's not based in it being an unhealthy choice).
    My point is that, as people who are not his doctors, we have no idea. However, we do know and agree his behavior is abnormal. As such, the rush to celebrate his behavior (awarding him a courage award as was done by ESPN) downplays any possibility that he would consider that he has an illness. His "healthy" decision has apparently led to at least one divorce. So, from a family standpoint, it seems to have caused issues. I would agree with you, that as laypeople, we should remain neutral. That is, we should neither celebrate nor condemn his behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And a few posts up, I presented support from the APA that transgenderism is not considered an inherently harmful condition and therefore have supported that Jenner's decision is not inherently harmful to himself.
    Depression is not inherently harmful either. The question is whether he is choosing to engage in his behaviors despite the negative consequences. If so, then a case can be made that his behaviors are a sign of mental illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The only reason that a behavior should be examined more is if the prior examination is inadequate. I'm not sure that that is the case.
    I don't know either. However, I fear that choosing to treat his abnormal behavior in a celebratory manner will result in any illness he may have going untreated. Further, I am fearful that it will result in others not getting the treatment they need. Not all abnormal behaviors are illnesses however all mental illness is considered abnormal behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm actually not aware of his family relationships (I'm not interested enough in it to learn about it) but one will need to tie the dysfunction directly tied to his transgender status to make the case. If the problem is primarily their bad reaction to his transgenderism then the problem is their attitude. If the problem is tied to him trying to hide his transgenderism then the problem is denying his "true self" as opposed to being transgendered
    I am not someone who keeps with the Jenners. I just don't live under a rock so I know he and his wife are separating. I am not claiming he is mentally ill, but I am indicating he should not be treated as though his condition isn't abnormal. I am not specifically saying you are, but I am saying he is getting that kind of treatment from the press. The general attitude seems to be, good for him. How brave. And I am just saying, hold on. He is potentially a very sick man and we shouldn't make his behaviors into something to be celebrated. I compare it to skinny super models. At one time we celebrated them without question. Then, we started realizing being that skinny is abnormal and it is likely a sign of a mental illness (i.e. some kind of food disorder). It wasn't until we began to question the abnormal behavior that we started taking the underlying illness seriously. We still have super skinny models and eating disorders, but I think there is a heightened awareness which is healthier than absolute acceptance.



    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I reject the notion that there is an attempt to cover up the fact that his behavior is abnormal.

    And I've seen no support that Jenner is actually unhealthy due to his gender issues. A person who has cancer and is transgendered has health issues but they are not due to being transgendered. Likewise if Jenner is mentally ill and transgendered, it does not mean that he's ill due to being transgendered. So I think there needs to be support that his decision is actually unhealthy before it's reasonable to be concerned that we are downplaying something that is actually unhealthy.
    You could have said the same thing about untold numbers of girls back in the 70's and 80's. You wouldn't have seen any support that those girls had serious mental issues, but the abnormal behavior was a huge clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And besides it, it's almost certainly a subjective notion on when something is being underplayed or overplayed. I mean one could argue that unless someone mentions Jenner's mental illness (if there is one) in every single sentence that mentions him, they are underplaying his illness or one could argue that just saying it once is enough. Where's the line of when it's "too little"?
    Putting him on the cover of Vanity Fair like a model. ESPN offering him a courage in sports award. These are instances where his abnormal behavior is being celebrated. And, frankly, I am not sure it is healthy for him. I am not sure it is healthy for others like him.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  17. #97
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    My point is that, as people who are not his doctors, we have no idea. However, we do know and agree his behavior is abnormal.
    Please keep in mind that the definition of "abnormal" that we are using is being in the statistical minority. It does not mean that there's anything necessarily wrong with his behavior. I mean being left-handed is "abby-someone" by that definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    As such, the rush to celebrate his behavior (awarding him a courage award as was done by ESPN) downplays any possibility that he would consider that he has an illness. His "healthy" decision has apparently led to at least one divorce. So, from a family standpoint, it seems to have caused issues. I would agree with you, that as laypeople, we should remain neutral. That is, we should neither celebrate nor condemn his behavior.
    Who's "we". If you mean you and I, I agree. I get the feeling that you and I are both too ignorant to really form a solid basis to celebrate or condemn (and I'm not saying it's bad for us to be somewhat ignorant on this rather trivial issue BTW) and therefore neutrality makes sense.

    But one's ignorance is not a valid basis to criticize how others react to it. I mean if someone thinks that there's something positive about Jenner and has not reason to believe that there's anything particularly bad, then they have a good reason to consider it a generally positive thing and even celebrate.

    Raising the mere possibility that he's not as alright as those people may think he is is not a valid basis to second-guess them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Depression is not inherently harmful either.
    Yes it is. It IS officially a disease (unlike being transgendered).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The question is whether he is choosing to engage in his behaviors despite the negative consequences. If so, then a case can be made that his behaviors are a sign of mental illness.
    What negative consequences?

    If you are referring to family strife, it is not at all settled that the issue is his behavior. As an analogy, if a father kicks a son out of his house for being gay, it's a bad thing but one cannot say for a fact that the primary problem is the son's homosexuality and therefore the son's behavior is a sign of mental illness. One could reasonably say that the family problem is based on the father's "unhealthy" attitude towards his son's sexual orientation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I don't know either. However, I fear that choosing to treat his abnormal behavior in a celebratory manner will result in any illness he may have going untreated.
    I see no reason to think that that is a valid concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Further, I am fearful that it will result in others not getting the treatment they need. Not all abnormal behaviors are illnesses however all mental illness is considered abnormal behavior.
    Again, I see no reason to be concerned about this as in believe it's something that one should think is likely to happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not someone who keeps with the Jenners. I just don't live under a rock so I know he and his wife are separating. I am not claiming he is mentally ill, but I am indicating he should not be treated as though his condition isn't abnormal.
    And I consider that a straw-man because I don't think anyone is saying that his condition is not statistically in the minority (AKA abnormal) nor do I think people are getting that impression.

    I don't think there's a single person who would say that his situation is very unusual (AKA abnormal) if asked.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The general attitude seems to be, good for him. How brave. And I am just saying, hold on. He is potentially a very sick man and we shouldn't make his behaviors into something to be celebrated.
    Because someone MIGHT be sick, their "brave" actions should not be celebrated?

    I think your argument is bordering on, or just is, an argument from ignorance fallacy. You are basing it on being unaware of him not being sick. I'd say when you can support that he IS sick is when it's valid to argue that we should factor that into the appropriate of celebrating his actions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I compare it to skinny super models. At one time we celebrated them without question. Then, we started realizing being that skinny is abnormal and it is likely a sign of a mental illness (i.e. some kind of food disorder). It wasn't until we began to question the abnormal behavior that we started taking the underlying illness seriously. We still have super skinny models and eating disorders, but I think there is a heightened awareness which is healthier than absolute acceptance.
    And when you can support that this is the same thing, you'll have a point.

    And if you want to advocate further research into the health effects of being transgendered, I won't argue against it. But it's not reasonable to criticize others attitudes towards Jenner until you have shown that either he IS sick or that it's a fact that we have not done enough research yet to safely say that he's not mentally ill and that the celebrators should be aware of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You could have said the same thing about untold numbers of girls back in the 70's and 80's. You wouldn't have seen any support that those girls had serious mental issues, but the abnormal behavior was a huge clue.
    And therefore...?

    Because we don't currently have information that something is an illness, we should conclude that it will be seen as such in the future when we learn more?




    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Putting him on the cover of Vanity Fair like a model. ESPN offering him a courage in sports award. These are instances where his abnormal behavior is being celebrated. And, frankly, I am not sure it is healthy for him. I am not sure it is healthy for others like him.
    Okay. So you're not sure. But your uncertainty is not a valid basis of support.
    Last edited by mican333; June 24th, 2015 at 10:54 AM.

  18. #98
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    I'm pretty sure it was here that I called the trans-gendered "Mentally Ill" and that surgeries was enabling that mental illness. ( A claim I did not support and I believe left at the time)...

    To that, if I recall, I was answered with the most current psychological manual's new definition, which is certainly not influenced by politics at all(sarcasm) which at the very least leaves room for it to be totally normal behavior etc..

    So, here I offer support for my previous claim, to be weighed by the reader against the counter support, which though I sarcastically mock it in this instance, is the proper kind of support.
    I hope that the reader can at least accept that my support is also of the proper kind.

    http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-ch...0bNx8.facebook

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    But as Dr. McHugh explains in the chapter “Surgical Sex” in his book The Mind Has Mountains: Reflections on Society and Psychiatry (Johns Hopkins University Press), transgender is a “mental illness,” and to surgically alter someone’s genitalia is to enable a disorder.“I have witnessed a great deal of damage from sex reassignment,” states Dr. McHugh in his book. “The children transformed from their male constitution into female roles suffered prolonged distress and misery as they sensed their natural attitudes” as males develop.

    “As for the adults who came to us [at Johns Hopkins Hospital] claiming to have discovered their ‘true’ sexual identity and to have heard about sex-change operations, we psychiatrists have been distracted from studying the causes and natures of their mental misdirections by preparing them for surgery and for a life in the other sex,” he said.

    “We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it,” said Dr. McHugh.

    I consider my point supported, and leave it to stand for consideration. (as Opposed to being dropped)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm pretty sure it was here that I called the trans-gendered "Mentally Ill" and that surgeries was enabling that mental illness. ( A claim I did not support and I believe left at the time)...


    ...


    I consider my point supported, and leave it to stand for consideration. (as Opposed to being dropped)
    Your point is not supported for the following reasons:

    1. You quote a biased source - Conservative News Service; whilst insufficient to reject everything they say, readers should be warned that this is a site that already has an anti-LGBT stance to begin with.
    2. The doctor quoted in the article is well known and well debunked already. To wit:
    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/0...h-transgender/
    But the masquerade is McHugh’s. His approach to transgender support — and his general antipathy to the entire LGBT community — has already been widely debunked. For example, he regularly claims that surgery does not support the mental health of transgender people, but he does so by citing a study comparing people who had surgery to people who weren’t even transgender. He also claims that transgender people are simply persuaded by culture that changing their body will solve their other psycho-social problems, which ignores the fact that many transgender people never undergo such surgeries.
    For this to even make sense, McHugh must ignore the notion that people who are transgender have psycho-social problems not because they are transgender, but because of how they are tormented by society because they are transgender. A large 2011 study found that transgender people are subject to rampant discrimination, poverty, harassment, and violence because they are transgender. A new study from Canada similarly found high rates of suicide attempts among transgender people, but specifically found that those suicide attempt rates significantly declined when trans people were supported by their parents, when they were able to update their legal documents to match their gender, when they endured less trans-based hate, and when they were able to transition their bodies to match their identities. In other words, McHugh has it totally backwards; it is affirming transgender people’s gender identities and supporting their traditions that helps them do best in society.
    So whatever point you were originally trying to support is not supported and should remained dropped, the last state before you are trying to resurrect it.

    You're welcome!


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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    To that, if I recall, I was answered with the most current psychological manual's new definition, which is certainly not influenced by politics at all(sarcasm) which at the very least leaves room for it to be totally normal behavior etc..
    Sarcasm and innuendo that the current psychological's manual definition is faulty due to bias is not support that it is.

    So I ask that you SUPPORT OR RETRACT psychological manual's definition is faulty on some level.

    Here's is more support from a CURRENT source.

    "People who have gender dysphoria feel strongly that they are not the gender they physically appear to be.

    For example, a person who has a penis and all other physical traits of a male might feel instead that he is actually a female. That person would have an intense desire to have a female body and to be accepted by others as a female. Or, someone with the physical characteristics of a female would feel her true identity is male.

    Feeling that your body does not reflect your true gender can cause severe distress, anxiety, and depression. "Dysphoria" is a feeling of dissatisfaction, anxiety, and restlessness. With gender dysphoria, the discomfort with your male or female body can be so intense that it can interfere with the way you function in normal life, for instance at school or work or during social activities.

    Gender dysphoria used to be called “gender identity disorder.” But the mismatch between body and internal sense of gender is not a mental illness. Instead, what need to be addressed are the stress, anxiety, and depression that go along with it."


    http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria

    And that makes a lot of sense. A disease has to cause harm to the person. So being transgendered CAN cause distress and therefore lead to disease where one has an unhealthy state of mind because of the stress and upset of having their body and mind not align but it's not inherently a disease. If one doesn't have a problem or they can change the disconnect by altering their body to fit their mind, then they are not diseased (so if Jenner had a disease due to body dysmorphia, the surgery probably cured it).

    As far as your support, the book you are referring to is 12 years old. Also the link is to a site with a clear right-wing bias. CNS's parent company is the Media Research Center. In their "about us" page the MRC says "MRC’s sole mission is to expose and neutralize the propaganda arm of the Left: the national news media. This makes the MRC’s work unique within the conservative movement."

    So in comparing purely scientific/medical sources with current information with a source with a right-wing bias quoting a book written a dozen years ago, I'd say the former is much more credible. Really, if it was at all a consensus amongst the current medical community that transgenderism is a mental illness, CNS wouldn't have to go back 12 years to find something that says it is a mental illness.
    Last edited by mican333; June 9th, 2016 at 08:45 PM.

 

 
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