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  1. #121
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    I don't think anyone here is a Doctor...sooo how can you diagnose someone "mentally ill"? you should educate yourself on what mental illness actually is.

  2. #122
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by TARA
    I don't think anyone here is a Doctor...sooo how can you diagnose someone "mentally ill"? you should educate yourself on what mental illness actually is.
    Thank for posting.
    I think this is an appeal to authority fallacy. One does not need to be a Dr to understand when someone has an issue that is mental in nature.
    Further, it does not take a Dr to correctly identify gender. There is a long history of parents giving children boy and girls name accurately without any Dr around, especially anytime before the last few hundred years.

    Given those two facts. It is not a giant leap to think that a person who's view of themselves which doesn't correspond with reality, is a problem with it's origin in the realm of the mental.

    Finally, there is the widely available and easily understandable social data on the transgendered and other "gender non conformists"
    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

    Suicide rates at 45% (overall)- 60%(in specific groups).
    Sorry, but any way you slice it.. that ain't mental health, or a mentally healthy lifestyle.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  3. #123
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Thank for posting.
    I think this is an appeal to authority fallacy.
    It's not. When you appeal to a doctor or some other kind of expert, you are appealing to expertise, not authority.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    One does not need to be a Dr to understand when someone has an issue that is mental in nature.
    And experts pretty much agree that transgenderism is not a disease. From the APA website.

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Further, it does not take a Dr to correctly identify gender. There is a long history of parents giving children boy and girls name accurately without any Dr around, especially anytime before the last few hundred years.
    Define when a parent has "accurately" given a child a name.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Given those two facts. It is not a giant leap to think that a person who's view of themselves which doesn't correspond with reality, is a problem with it's origin in the realm of the mental.
    But it's completely unsupported that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond with reality. What particular aspect of reality are they denying?

    From both of your statements, you seem to be forwarding the premise that gender is based on nothing other than whether the person has "boy parts" or "girl parts". You are free to hold that as an opinion but it's not an established fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Finally, there is the widely available and easily understandable social data on the transgendered and other "gender non conformists"
    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

    Suicide rates at 45% (overall)- 60%(in specific groups).
    Sorry, but any way you slice it.. that ain't mental health, or a mentally healthy lifestyle.
    Please note this from your source.

    Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following:
    — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care
    • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
    • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59%
    • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65%
    — At school (any level): 63-78%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement
    • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70
    — Experienced homelessness: 69%


    This suggests that the relative increase in suicide is not base on being transgendered itself but suffering from discrimination and abuse because one is transgendered. So what's unhealthy for transgendered people is being discriminated against and abused. So you have not supported that being transgendered itself is inherently unhealthy or a disease.
    Last edited by mican333; March 22nd, 2017 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    It's not. When you appeal to a doctor or some other kind of expert, you are appealing to expertise, not authority.
    Go back and observe what is being responded too.
    The claim is that because you aren't a DR, then you can't do X.
    That is fallacious, and I showed why.
    The problem is your talking about when you appeal TO a Dr. This is an appeal that because you AREN'T a Dr.

    Suppose I responded to you so as to say, your not hold a philosopher degree, so you can't philosophize. ?

    That is what is being done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And experts pretty much agree that transgenderism is not a disease. From the APA website.

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."
    That is indeed the professional opinion, and it is demonstrably false.
    The high suicide rate is specifically because they are "distressed".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Define when a parent has "accurately" given a child a name.
    I don't understand the question.
    I have forwarded that parents name boys with boys names with a high success rate.
    This goes back to the laypersons ability to correctly identify gender, and is a response to the fallacious appeal to authority. As though only DR can correctly identify gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But it's completely unsupported that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond with reality. What particular aspect of reality are they denying?
    Gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    This suggests that the relative increase in suicide is not base on being transgendered itself but suffering from discrimination and abuse because one is transgendered. So what's unhealthy for transgendered people is being discriminated against and abused. So you have not supported that being transgendered itself is inherently unhealthy or a disease.
    Yes I saw that. Go back and view the source and you will see that the base is 45%+. Those are categories.

    Further, no you are wrong. Because other groups experience the same thing. You would have to show that other groups have a similar suicide rate.
    So for example suppose strait people who are homeless have a suicide rate of 20%.
    Compare that to trans who are homeless with a rate of 60%

    The relevant factor is not "homelessness", it is the gender confusion that is responsible for the higher rate.
    At least that would be the proper way of viewing the data, the 20% # was made up to show the point.
    Your claim doesn't follow from the data provided.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  5. #125
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Go back and observe what is being responded too.
    The claim is that because you aren't a DR, then you can't do X.
    That is fallacious, and I showed why.
    The problem is your talking about when you appeal TO a Dr. This is an appeal that because you AREN'T a Dr.

    Suppose I responded to you so as to say, your not hold a philosopher degree, so you can't philosophize. ?

    That is what is being done here.
    Okay. But I don't see how it can be considered an appeal to authority.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is indeed the professional opinion, and it is demonstrably false.
    The high suicide rate is specifically because they are "distressed".
    And being distressed is not a disease.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't understand the question.
    I have forwarded that parents name boys with boys names with a high success rate.
    This goes back to the laypersons ability to correctly identify gender, and is a response to the fallacious appeal to authority. As though only DR can correctly identify gender.
    Again, appealing to a doctor is not an appeal to authority but an appeal to expertise.

    And what is your standard for a successful naming? I mean you seem to just be appealing to yourself in such a judgment ("it's true because I say it's true") and appeal to self is a logical fallacy.

    You need to provide a valid standard for "correct naming" before it can be claimed that anyone is or is not named correctly.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Gender.
    That's so vague as to say almost nothing at all. So please be specific. What part of reality are they denying?

    To be clear - what objectively true fact do they believe is false?



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Further, no you are wrong. Because other groups experience the same thing.
    But not at the same rate that transgendered people do. Are you actually challenging the notion that transgendered people, per capita, suffer greater abuse and discrimination than cisgendered (normal) people do?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You would have to show that other groups have a similar suicide rate.

    So for example suppose strait people who are homeless have a suicide rate of 20%.
    Compare that to trans who are homeless with a rate of 60%
    If you can show that that is the case, you might have a point.

    But the issue is that transgendered teen is more likely to be kicked out of the house and become homeless than a cisgendered person.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The relevant factor is not "homelessness", it is the gender confusion that is responsible for the higher rate.
    No, it's increased likelihood of becoming homeless or being abused, etc.


    And you are kind of shifting the burden a bit. If you are going to argue that the increased suicide rate is due to just being transgendered and there are not other factors, such as increased likelihood of abuse, the burden is yours to show it. So I don't really have to support that trans people are more likely to be abused to explain the higher suicide rate to defeat your position. You have to show that the issue is them being transgendered and not something else (like increased likelihood of abuse) before you can make the case that the suicide rate is caused by being transgendered.

  6. #126
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Okay. But I don't see how it can be considered an appeal to authority.
    Because they are saying if you aren't an authority, you can't contribute to the discussion.
    And if your not an authority, and you disagree with authorities, then you must be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And being distressed is not a disease.
    Actually, by the definition you offered. it is.
    Remember this from your last post?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN LINK
    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability.
    Maybe there is some confusion by the use of "disease" instead of "disorder". Here they are used to reference the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, appealing to a doctor is not an appeal to authority but an appeal to expertise.
    I think I addressed this pretty clearly above. Is there still some confusion on the appeal to authority fallacy I pointed out?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And what is your standard for a successful naming? I mean you seem to just be appealing to yourself in such a judgment ("it's true because I say it's true") and appeal to self is a logical fallacy.

    You need to provide a valid standard for "correct naming" before it can be claimed that anyone is or is not named correctly.
    I did not appeal to myself, far from it in fact.
    I appealed to a track record of history. Is it really your position that people have done a terrible job in the past of identifying the sex of their children?
    I mean, I used the naming thing because it is fairly obvious that people have given their children boy and girl names on purpose based on sex.

    So.. I'm confused at your objection here.. if you even have one or if your just trying to ask for proof of something you already agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    That's so vague as to say almost nothing at all. So please be specific. What part of reality are they denying?

    To be clear - what objectively true fact do they believe is false?
    I'm sorry, what is unclear. what is vague?
    Do you not know what gender is?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But not at the same rate that transgendered people do. Are you actually challenging the notion that transgendered people, per capita, suffer greater abuse and discrimination than cisgendered (normal) people do?
    I think you are confused by statistics here.
    The study showed % not numbers
    It said that 60% of transgender that are homeless try to kill themselves.
    It did not say that 20,000 transgender who were homeless try to kill themselves.

    So if your saying that transgender experience homelessness at a greater rate than others.. I"m not sure what that has to do with anything or if it helps your case.
    Does it make the gender confused more well balanced to be conically homeless?

    Also, the historical context is that the only group that compares is Jews under Nazi Germany. Gener confused are not persecuted at nearly that level.
    Finally, your argument is undercut by the fact that there is a base rate of 45% which is for people who don't fall into those subcategories.
    So if they are not rejected by society, raped by police, and made homeless, and not even recognized as to their sexuality.. They still try suicide at 45% or so.

    You can keep trying to massage the numbers, but there is a real issue, and it isn't all societies fault for being mean.
    It probably has a lot more to do with the mental distress of regretting cutting your penis off.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If you can show that that is the case, you might have a point.

    But the issue is that transgendered teen is more likely to be kicked out of the house and become homeless than a cisgendered person.
    support.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, it's increased likelihood of becoming homeless or being abused, etc.
    Homelessness especially a tendency to it, is not a sign of mental health.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And you are kind of shifting the burden a bit. If you are going to argue that the increased suicide rate is due to just being transgendered and there are not other factors, such as increased likelihood of abuse, the burden is yours to show it. So I don't really have to support that trans people are more likely to be abused to explain the higher suicide rate to defeat your position. You have to show that the issue is them being transgendered and not something else (like increased likelihood of abuse) before you can make the case that the suicide rate is caused by being transgendered.
    I did support it, because they have a rate of 45% or so without the listed abuses. (more on that below)
    Look at the report, when it says "elevated" or "Higher rate" it is comparing to the base rate (Ie those who did not do what is then offered as a subset).
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among
    those who disclose to everyone that they are
    transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and
    among those that report others can tell always (42%)
    or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender
    or gender non-conforming even if they don’t tell them
    Also, I am not shifting the burden I am asking for you to support your claims.
    Your claiming that "X" is the reason why "Y" has occurred.
    You have not shown it to be the case, and it isn't something that is in the paper.
    Such as homelessness. You don't know the rate of homelessness of the gender confused, and the paper doesn't say it.
    So I ask you to support that they do experience it at a higher rate, and explain how it is relevant and explanatory.
    I also point out that the paper undercuts that conclusion regardless (Ie even if you are correct) because those that are not homeless still try to off themselves at a much higher rate than anyone else (save jews being threatened with death and torture from Nazis).

    ---
    So the conclusion that the increased suicide rate in the gender confused society, is based on their gender confusion.. is pretty much the conclusion of the paper.

    Like for example the 33% suicide rate for people who said their family was as strong as they day they came out.
    Or the 41% suicide rate for those who said officers generally treated them with respect.

    Seriously, your argument is bunk. Sure you may win the argument on the 20%, but I'm arguing from the 40% (down from 60 due to your 20% win).
    Your arguing from the people who have had it the worst and saying "no wonder, their life sucked and no one liked them".
    I'm saying. "The people who had a life like everyone else.. try to off themselves at 40ish%.. that ain't normal and that ain't the sign of mental health".
    Your argument simply does not apply.

    Bottom line, if this were anything else it would be widely recognized as bad, and unhealthy.
    If a drug was the common factor of people who tried to off themselves at a 31% rate (see below quote) it would be banned, people who were on it would get rehab treatment and there would be a national campaign to fight it. Here however, people put blinders on and try to blame society.. even though society is expressly not the problem (supported below).
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    14
    QUALITY OF LIFE
    DISCUSSION
    The prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts was
    lowest (31%) among respondents who felt that being
    transgender or gender non-conforming had not markedly
    affected the quality of their lives (see Table 22).
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  7. #127
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because they are saying if you aren't an authority, you can't contribute to the discussion.
    And if your not an authority, and you disagree with authorities, then you must be wrong.
    Again, it's an appeal to EXPERTISE. A doctor is an expert, not an authority.

    So either way you cut it, it's not an appeal to authority to appeal to an expert in the relevant field.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Actually, by the definition you offered. it is.
    Remember this from your last post?
    A disease CONSISTENTLY causes distress as in every single person who has the disease will feel distress because of it (for example, everyone who has a cold suffers from the symptoms of a cold). Since some transgendered people do not feel distress due to being transgendered, transgenderism does not qualify as a disease.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I did not appeal to myself, far from it in fact.
    I appealed to a track record of history. Is it really your position that people have done a terrible job in the past of identifying the sex of their children?
    I would say that people have consistently done a good of identifying the genitals that the child is born with.

    But if a person was born with "boy parts" but has a female brain and then transitions to a female body, then assuming one accepts that person as a female (and I probably would), they could say that the parents misidentified that person's gender. Of course you may disagree with that assessment but if you are saying that it's wrong because that's what you think on the issue, then it is an appeal to self.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm sorry, what is unclear. what is vague?
    Do you not know what gender is?
    Yes. Do you know what vague means?

    You said that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality. When I ask what specifically they are wrong about and you just say "gender" which is very, very non-specific or in other words, vague.

    So let me put it this way (and this is more of an attempt to get you to be more specific than to offer a challenge but it is a challenge)

    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also, the historical context is that the only group that compares is Jews under Nazi Germany. Gener confused are not persecuted at nearly that level.
    Finally, your argument is undercut by the fact that there is a base rate of 45% which is for people who don't fall into those subcategories.
    So if they are not rejected by society, raped by police, and made homeless, and not even recognized as to their sexuality.. They still try suicide at 45% or so.

    You can keep trying to massage the numbers, but there is a real issue, and it isn't all societies fault for being mean.
    You don't know that. Beyond the actual abuse and such (which is documented) there is also the distress of not fitting in (which is not documented). Even a transgendered person who does not reveal their trans status and therefor suffers no overt abuse is still aware that they are different than most people in a way that would make them vulnerable to such abuse if they were to reveal it (similarly to closeted gays). So they can't tell the truth and they are probably very uncomfortable living a lie. Damned if you do and damned if you don't even if no one actually hurts you. That would also make suicide more likely.

    And if you omit those factors (let's call them Y and Z) and you are left with X, you don't know what X is. You certainly haven't made any case that X is anything in particular. For example you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It probably has a lot more to do with the mental distress of regretting cutting your penis off.
    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT this assertion. Please show me evidence that a certain percentage of trans people said that THIS is the reason they tried to commit suicide.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    support.
    Support that a transgendered person is more likely to be kicked out his/her home by the parents than a cisgendered persons (for that is my claim?. I appeal to the obvious. Cisgendered people are not kicked out of their homes just for being cisgendered.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also, I am not shifting the burden I am asking for you to support your claims.
    Your claiming that "X" is the reason why "Y" has occurred.
    No, I'm not. I'm raising the possibility that it is. If your position is that that is not the case because the cause is something else, then it's your burden to show this if you argument is correct. To ask me to support that gender confusion is not the primary cause before you support that it is the primary cause is shifting the burden.

    And to be clear, I'm saying that there are a variety of issues that can cause a transgendered person to be suicidal and abuse is one of them. I also forwarded being afraid of leaving the closet (similarly to gays). And there are other issues that neither of us have thought of. These MAY all combine to explain all or almost all of the increase in suicidal tendencies.

    So if you want to claim that something in particular is a significant cause of suicide, you need to show evidence that it is. You can't just take all suicides (attempted included) subtract those that clearly are not the reasons you want to forward and then say that what's left over is the reasons you are forwarding. You need to support with evidence that the reasons are what you say that they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So the conclusion that the increased suicide rate in the gender confused society, is based on their gender confusion.. is pretty much the conclusion of the paper.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT. Please paste the part of the paper that says this as in specifically says something like "gender confusion is the primary cause".


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm saying. "The people who had a life like everyone else.. try to off themselves at 40ish%.. that ain't normal and that ain't the sign of mental health".
    But few of them have a life like everyone else. Again, even if one is not abused because they never revealed that they are transgendered, they still have the stress of living in the closet.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Bottom line, if this were anything else it would be widely recognized as bad, and unhealthy.
    If a drug was the common factor of people who tried to off themselves at a 31% rate (see below quote) it would be banned, people who were on it would get rehab treatment and there would be a national campaign to fight it. Here however, people put blinders on and try to blame society.. even though society is expressly not the problem (supported below).
    If 31% said that being transgendered did not effect the quality of their lives and if you take them at their word, they did not attempt suicide because they were transgendered. So by that factor, you cannot blame their suicide attempts on being transgendered. And if you dismiss their claims that being transgendered had little to do with suicide, then you likewise must dismiss the statistic as a whole.


    ------------------------------------------------------

    And I don't entirely dismiss the inherent health effects that can come with being transgendered. Some are clearly uncomfortable having their brains and bodies being a different gender and that would cause distress no matter how accepting society is of them. I believe that is what is known as body dysmorphia. But the obvious solution to the bodies and brains being different is to change one of them so that they align. You can't change the gender of the brain so altering the body to fit the brain will likely help fix the disconnect of the gender between the body and brain gender. So by that logic a sex change decreases the chances of one suffering and dying from dysmorphia.

    But to be clear, not all transgendered people suffer from dysmorphia so the fact that some do does not qualify transgenderism as a disease.

    Your earlier assertion that the suicide arises from a person regretting the sex change is without support.
    Last edited by mican333; March 23rd, 2017 at 02:51 PM.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, it's an appeal to EXPERTISE. A doctor is an expert, not an authority.

    So either way you cut it, it's not an appeal to authority to appeal to an expert in the relevant field.
    I'm honestly confused by this.
    Are you trying to offer a Na-Huh response? Because you are.
    Changing the term "authority" to "expert" is not helpful as it is equivocating.
    An expert is simply one who is seen as having some authority in a field. It is an authority on knowledge.

    So your really just kicking the can around, and not addressing the point.

    As to the nah-huh, I already pointed out that what you are responding to did not occur. It is one thing to appeal
    to an expert, that did not occure. They did not say "Dr Bob is an expert in the field, and he says XYZ about this'.
    They said, "Your not a Dr so you don't get an opinion", or "your opinion is thus inherently flawed and wrong".

    The latter is an appeal to authority fallacy. And that is what has occured.
    Otherwise. As you are not a graduate of a proper school in the proper field we are currently discussing, your opinion
    regarding the exchange is not relevant or valid.

    Take your pick.
    You can conciede that it was a fallacy to dismiss a stated argument because the proper prefix is not attached to the
    name of argment giver.
    or
    You can conciede that your contributions to this thread are invalid, because YOU do not have the proper prefix attached to your
    name.

    ---------

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A disease CONSISTENTLY causes distress as in every single person who has the disease will feel distress because of it (for example, everyone who has a cold suffers from the symptoms of a cold). Since some transgendered people do not feel distress due to being transgendered, transgenderism does not qualify as a disease.
    I'm afraid your not a Dr, so your comment is not valid.
    Nobody cares what you think.
    (Man, I love this fallacy, no wonder you want to keep it).


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I would say that people have consistently done a good of identifying the genitals that the child is born with.

    But if a person was born with "boy parts" but has a female brain and then transitions to a female body, then assuming one accepts that person as a female (and I probably would), they could say that the parents misidentified that person's gender. Of course you may disagree with that assessment but if you are saying that it's wrong because that's what you think on the issue, then it is an appeal to self.
    And as you are not a Dr, there is no reason to accept your statement as anything other than invalid.

    If only you had some proof of this baseless accusation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Yes. Do you know what vague means?

    You said that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality. When I ask what specifically they are wrong about and you just say "gender" which is very, very non-specific or in other words, vague.

    So let me put it this way (and this is more of an attempt to get you to be more specific than to offer a challenge but it is a challenge)

    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality.
    I don't understand the challenge. There is a thing called gender, and the gender confused are incorrect in their thinking as to which gender they belong to.

    I do not see where or how that can be a vague claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    You don't know that. Beyond the actual abuse and such (which is documented) there is also the distress of not fitting in (which is not documented). Even a transgendered person who does not reveal their trans status and therefor suffers no overt abuse is still aware that they are different than most people in a way that would make them vulnerable to such abuse if they were to reveal it (similarly to closeted gays). So they can't tell the truth and they are probably very uncomfortable living a lie. Damned if you do and damned if you don't even if no one actually hurts you. That would also make suicide more likely.

    And if you omit those factors (let's call them Y and Z) and you are left with X, you don't know what X is. You certainly haven't made any case that X is anything in particular. For example you say:
    Well, I hate to remind you that your not a Dr in the relevant field from the proper school and all.
    So there is that.
    Further I am not claiming to "know" I'm pointing to evidence that supports that position.
    Namely that people who said they were accepted by their family, and treated well by society had a high suicide rate.
    Your assertion of hidden self hate and fear, is unsupported and wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT this assertion. Please show me evidence that a certain percentage of trans people said that THIS is the reason they tried to commit suicide.
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    As shown in
    Table 5, respondents who said they had received transition-
    related health care or wanted to have it someday were
    more likely to report having attempted suicide than those
    who said they did not want it.
    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support that a transgendered person is more likely to be kicked out his/her home by the parents than a cisgendered persons (for that is my claim?. I appeal to the obvious. Cisgendered people are not kicked out of their homes just for being cisgendered.
    So those people are kicked out for sexual reasons all the time. Pregnancy, sexual activity at all, etc. etc.
    They also get kicked out for other "disaproval" reasons, like being viewed as an idiot by their parrents or a deadbeat, lazy etc.

    So you have not really supported that what the gender confused is going through is unique(so as to not be direclty compared to other reasons for being kicked out of the house), or that it occurs at a higher rate.
    It is not "obvious".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, I'm not. I'm raising the possibility that it is. If your position is that that is not the case because the cause is something else, then it's your burden to show this if you argument is correct. To ask me to support that gender confusion is not the primary cause before you support that it is the primary cause is shifting the burden.
    I have supported my position with a published work on the topic, and have reasoned my support from it.
    So, please do not act like I have not offered support.
    Your position is that there "could be" something else, and you have the burden to define what that is and show how it is relevant, and support that relevance.
    Also,It would be nice if you showed that the support I offered didn't already take it into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And to be clear, I'm saying that there are a variety of issues that can cause a transgendered person to be suicidal and abuse is one of them. I also forwarded being afraid of leaving the closet (similarly to gays). And there are other issues that neither of us have thought of. These MAY all combine to explain all or almost all of the increase in suicidal tendencies.
    Without evidence there simply is no reason to think this is the case. it is wishful thinking to simply assume my argument and point away.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So if you want to claim that something in particular is a significant cause of suicide, you need to show evidence that it is. You can't just take all suicides (attempted included) subtract those that clearly are not the reasons you want to forward and then say that what's left over is the reasons you are forwarding. You need to support with evidence that the reasons are what you say that they are.
    I have done exactly that. I have forwarded that gender confusion is a mental disorder. I have supported that by showing an enormouse increase in suicide for that group accross the board.
    You have countered that abuse may be a big reason, and I responded by showing that even controlling for abuse, the rate is frankly amazingly high.
    You respond by forwarding the "hope" that it may be some other outside factor. Which is a fine hope, but that isn't what the evidence says.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT. Please paste the part of the paper that says this as in specifically says something like "gender confusion is the primary cause".
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    In looking
    at the percentages reporting a lifetime attempt within
    various subgroups of the overall sample, we repeatedly
    found “lows” in the range of 30 to 40 percent, while the
    “highs” exceeded 50 or even 60 percent. Even taking
    into consideration that some degree of over-reporting
    likely occurred in the survey, the results suggest these
    transgender and gender non-conforming respondents
    have experienced exceptionally high levels of suicidality.
    Now, when I say "increased suicide rate" I mean from the general population.
    The general population has a suicide rate of 10-15 per 100,000.
    If that population were all gender confused that number would look like
    50,000 out of 100,000.

    The paper says "The most striking finding of our analysis was the
    exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide
    attempts reported by NTDS respondents. "

    So do you find it striking? How do you explain it?
    The most obvious answer is that it has to do with their mental state surrounding their gender confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But few of them have a life like everyone else. Again, even if one is not abused because they never revealed that they are transgendered, they still have the stress of living in the closet.
    So. You have a burden of establishing relevance, not simply hand waving and spitballing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If 31% said that being transgendered did not effect the quality of their lives and if you take them at their word, they did not attempt suicide because they were transgendered. So by that factor, you cannot blame their suicide attempts on being transgendered. And if you dismiss their claims that being transgendered had little to do with suicide, then you likewise must dismiss the statistic as a whole.
    I don't think "quality of life" here means mental health. I think it means how they are treated by others. (This because I thought it was quoted in the section discussing treatment by others and in contrast with the sexually abused etc).
    Why do you think it is a self mental evaluation? (support from the paper please).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I don't entirely dismiss the inherent health effects that can come with being transgendered. Some are clearly uncomfortable having their brains and bodies being a different gender and that would cause distress no matter how accepting society is of them. I believe that is what is known as body dysmorphia. But the obvious solution to the bodies and brains being different is to change one of them so that they align. You can't change the gender of the brain so altering the body to fit the brain will likely help fix the disconnect of the gender between the body and brain gender. So by that logic a sex change decreases the chances of one suffering and dying from dysmorphia.

    But to be clear, not all transgendered people suffer from dysmorphia so the fact that some do does not qualify transgenderism as a disease.

    Your earlier assertion that the suicide arises from a person regretting the sex change is without support.
    Just a laundry list of false and unsupported assertions. Most i have challenged in the thrad so no need to repeat here.

    ---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, it's an appeal to EXPERTISE. A doctor is an expert, not an authority.

    So either way you cut it, it's not an appeal to authority to appeal to an expert in the relevant field.
    I'm honestly confused by this.
    Are you trying to offer a Na-Huh response? Because you are.
    Changing the term "authority" to "expert" is not helpful as it is equivocating.
    An expert is simply one who is seen as having some authority in a field. It is an authority on knowledge.

    So your really just kicking the can around, and not addressing the point.

    As to the nah-huh, I already pointed out that what you are responding to did not occur. It is one thing to appeal
    to an expert, that did not occure. They did not say "Dr Bob is an expert in the field, and he says XYZ about this'.
    They said, "Your not a Dr so you don't get an opinion", or "your opinion is thus inherently flawed and wrong".

    The latter is an appeal to authority fallacy. And that is what has occured.
    Otherwise. As you are not a graduate of a proper school in the proper field we are currently discussing, your opinion
    regarding the exchange is not relevant or valid.

    Take your pick.
    You can conciede that it was a fallacy to dismiss a stated argument because the proper prefix is not attached to the
    name of argment giver.
    or
    You can conciede that your contributions to this thread are invalid, because YOU do not have the proper prefix attached to your
    name.

    ---------

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A disease CONSISTENTLY causes distress as in every single person who has the disease will feel distress because of it (for example, everyone who has a cold suffers from the symptoms of a cold). Since some transgendered people do not feel distress due to being transgendered, transgenderism does not qualify as a disease.
    I'm afraid your not a Dr, so your comment is not valid.
    Nobody cares what you think.
    (Man, I love this fallacy, no wonder you want to keep it).

    IE support that mental disorders work the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I would say that people have consistently done a good of identifying the genitals that the child is born with.

    But if a person was born with "boy parts" but has a female brain and then transitions to a female body, then assuming one accepts that person as a female (and I probably would), they could say that the parents misidentified that person's gender. Of course you may disagree with that assessment but if you are saying that it's wrong because that's what you think on the issue, then it is an appeal to self.
    And as you are not a Dr, there is no reason to accept your statement as anything other than invalid.

    If only you had some proof of this baseless accusation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Yes. Do you know what vague means?

    You said that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality. When I ask what specifically they are wrong about and you just say "gender" which is very, very non-specific or in other words, vague.

    So let me put it this way (and this is more of an attempt to get you to be more specific than to offer a challenge but it is a challenge)

    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality.
    I don't understand the challenge. There is a thing called gender, and the gender confused are incorrect in their thinking as to which gender they belong to.

    I do not see where or how that can be a vague claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    You don't know that. Beyond the actual abuse and such (which is documented) there is also the distress of not fitting in (which is not documented). Even a transgendered person who does not reveal their trans status and therefor suffers no overt abuse is still aware that they are different than most people in a way that would make them vulnerable to such abuse if they were to reveal it (similarly to closeted gays). So they can't tell the truth and they are probably very uncomfortable living a lie. Damned if you do and damned if you don't even if no one actually hurts you. That would also make suicide more likely.

    And if you omit those factors (let's call them Y and Z) and you are left with X, you don't know what X is. You certainly haven't made any case that X is anything in particular. For example you say:
    Well, I hate to remind you that your not a Dr in the relevant field from the proper school and all.
    So there is that.
    Further I am not claiming to "know" I'm pointing to evidence that supports that position.
    Namely that people who said they were accepted by their family, and treated well by society had a high suicide rate.
    Your assertion of hidden self hate and fear, is unsupported and wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT this assertion. Please show me evidence that a certain percentage of trans people said that THIS is the reason they tried to commit suicide.
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    As shown in
    Table 5, respondents who said they had received transition-
    related health care or wanted to have it someday were
    more likely to report having attempted suicide than those
    who said they did not want it.
    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support that a transgendered person is more likely to be kicked out his/her home by the parents than a cisgendered persons (for that is my claim?. I appeal to the obvious. Cisgendered people are not kicked out of their homes just for being cisgendered.
    So those people are kicked out for sexual reasons all the time. Pregnancy, sexual activity at all, etc. etc.
    They also get kicked out for other "disaproval" reasons, like being viewed as an idiot by their parrents or a deadbeat, lazy etc.

    So you have not really supported that what the gender confused is going through is unique(so as to not be direclty compared to other reasons for being kicked out of the house), or that it occurs at a higher rate.
    It is not "obvious".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, I'm not. I'm raising the possibility that it is. If your position is that that is not the case because the cause is something else, then it's your burden to show this if you argument is correct. To ask me to support that gender confusion is not the primary cause before you support that it is the primary cause is shifting the burden.
    I have supported my position with a published work on the topic, and have reasoned my support from it.
    So, please do not act like I have not offered support.
    Your position is that there "could be" something else, and you have the burden to define what that is and show how it is relevant, and support that relevance.
    Also,It would be nice if you showed that the support I offered didn't already take it into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And to be clear, I'm saying that there are a variety of issues that can cause a transgendered person to be suicidal and abuse is one of them. I also forwarded being afraid of leaving the closet (similarly to gays). And there are other issues that neither of us have thought of. These MAY all combine to explain all or almost all of the increase in suicidal tendencies.
    Without evidence there simply is no reason to think this is the case. it is wishful thinking to simply assume my argument and point away.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So if you want to claim that something in particular is a significant cause of suicide, you need to show evidence that it is. You can't just take all suicides (attempted included) subtract those that clearly are not the reasons you want to forward and then say that what's left over is the reasons you are forwarding. You need to support with evidence that the reasons are what you say that they are.
    I have done exactly that. I have forwarded that gender confusion is a mental disorder. I have supported that by showing an enormouse increase in suicide for that group accross the board.
    You have countered that abuse may be a big reason, and I responded by showing that even controlling for abuse, the rate is frankly amazingly high.
    You respond by forwarding the "hope" that it may be some other outside factor. Which is a fine hope, but that isn't what the evidence says.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT. Please paste the part of the paper that says this as in specifically says something like "gender confusion is the primary cause".
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    In looking
    at the percentages reporting a lifetime attempt within
    various subgroups of the overall sample, we repeatedly
    found “lows” in the range of 30 to 40 percent, while the
    “highs” exceeded 50 or even 60 percent. Even taking
    into consideration that some degree of over-reporting
    likely occurred in the survey, the results suggest these
    transgender and gender non-conforming respondents
    have experienced exceptionally high levels of suicidality.
    Now, when I say "increased suicide rate" I mean from the general population.
    The general population has a suicide rate of 10-15 per 100,000.
    If that population were all gender confused that number would look like
    50,000 out of 100,000.

    The paper says "The most striking finding of our analysis was the
    exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide
    attempts reported by NTDS respondents. "

    So do you find it striking? How do you explain it?
    The most obvious answer is that it has to do with their mental state surrounding their gender confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But few of them have a life like everyone else. Again, even if one is not abused because they never revealed that they are transgendered, they still have the stress of living in the closet.
    So. You have a burden of establishing relevance, not simply hand waving and spitballing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If 31% said that being transgendered did not effect the quality of their lives and if you take them at their word, they did not attempt suicide because they were transgendered. So by that factor, you cannot blame their suicide attempts on being transgendered. And if you dismiss their claims that being transgendered had little to do with suicide, then you likewise must dismiss the statistic as a whole.
    I don't think "quality of life" here means mental health. I think it means how they are treated by others. (This because I thought it was quoted in the section discussing treatment by others and in contrast with the sexually abused etc).
    Why do you think it is a self mental evaluation? (support from the paper please).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I don't entirely dismiss the inherent health effects that can come with being transgendered. Some are clearly uncomfortable having their brains and bodies being a different gender and that would cause distress no matter how accepting society is of them. I believe that is what is known as body dysmorphia. But the obvious solution to the bodies and brains being different is to change one of them so that they align. You can't change the gender of the brain so altering the body to fit the brain will likely help fix the disconnect of the gender between the body and brain gender. So by that logic a sex change decreases the chances of one suffering and dying from dysmorphia.

    But to be clear, not all transgendered people suffer from dysmorphia so the fact that some do does not qualify transgenderism as a disease.

    Your earlier assertion that the suicide arises from a person regretting the sex change is without support.
    Just a laundry list of false and unsupported assertions. Most i have challenged in the thrad so no need to repeat here.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #129
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm honestly confused by this.
    Are you trying to offer a Na-Huh response? Because you are.
    Changing the term "authority" to "expert" is not helpful as it is equivocating.
    An expert is simply one who is seen as having some authority in a field. It is an authority on knowledge.
    But it's not a fallacy to appeal to such a person for "appeal to authority" fallacy refers to appealing to an authority who is not an expert in the given field.

    In support:

    "An argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ad verecundiam), also called an appeal to authority, is a common type of argument which can be fallacious, such as when an authority is cited on a topic outside their area of expertise or when the authority cited is not a true expert."

    So it explicitly says that it's a fallacy when the authority does not have expertise in the given area of debate. So appeal to a doctor for medical issue is NOT an appeal to authority fallacy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As to the nah-huh, I already pointed out that what you are responding to did not occur. It is one thing to appeal
    to an expert, that did not occure. They did not say "Dr Bob is an expert in the field, and he says XYZ about this'.
    They said, "Your not a Dr so you don't get an opinion", or "your opinion is thus inherently flawed and wrong".
    Well, I didn't make that argument so I have no burden to defend it. I'm just saying that it's not an appeal to authority. And while I wouldn't put it the way that that person did, it is correct to point out that if you are not an expert on an issue, your position can be ignored in regards to the debate as in it's not support. Typically you do need to provide a link to external support so it's likewise correct that you should cite an medical expert instead of just saying what you believe if you want to make a point (but of course any noncontroversial statements should be accepted even if no support is offered for the sake of moving the debate along).


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm afraid your not a Dr, so your comment is not valid.
    Nobody cares what you think.
    (Man, I love this fallacy, no wonder you want to keep it).
    Actually, what I think doesn't necessarily matter. That's why I provided support from experts to support my position. And I don't care if you personally agree with it or not because it's supported either way.

    So it's supported that transgenderism is not a disease and that position stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And as you are not a Dr, there is no reason to accept your statement as anything other than invalid.

    If only you had some proof of this baseless accusation.
    Actually, this is your point. You are the one who is saying that parents can always accurately identify the gender of the child. So if you want to kill this point with the lame "you're not a doctor" argument, that's fine with me. I'm fine dropping this argument of yours.

    BTW, I never made or even supported this lame "you're not a doctor" argument. All I did was point out that it's not a argument from authority fallacy. So it's kind of silly to use this lame argument against me.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't understand the challenge. There is a thing called gender, and the gender confused are incorrect in their thinking as to which gender they belong to.
    I assume by "gender confused" you mean "transgendered". Please use "transgendered" only if that is what you are referring to for I do not concede that they are gender confused so using the term interchangeably is to equivocate.

    And I'm asking you to support or retract your statement that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality.

    And I'm challenging the statement because I don't agree with it and it has not been supported by any facts. So you need to provide some facts that show that it is true that transgendered people have a view of themselves that does not correspond to reality.

    If you can't or won't support that statement, then you must retract it.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I hate to remind you that your not a Dr in the relevant field from the proper school and all.
    So there is that.
    Further I am not claiming to "know" I'm pointing to evidence that supports that position.
    Namely that people who said they were accepted by their family, and treated well by society had a high suicide rate.
    Ok. So for those who were accepted by their families, one cannot say that family abuse is the reason that they are suicidal.

    So the remaining suicidal trans folk, what is the cause of their suicidal behavior? There are many possible answers and you have not provided any evidence that the answer that you believe is correct is the right answer.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So those people are kicked out for sexual reasons all the time. Pregnancy, sexual activity at all, etc. etc.
    They also get kicked out for other "disaproval" reasons, like being viewed as an idiot by their parrents or a deadbeat, lazy etc.
    Sure. But NO ONE gets kicked out for being cisgendered. So all else being equal, one is more likely to be kicked out for being transgendered than cisgendered and therefore being transgendered increases the chances of ending up homeless.

    These other factors don't really change the equation. If we factor in being lazy, a transgendered lazy person is still more likely to be kicked out of the house than a cisgendered lazy person.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I have supported my position with a published work on the topic, and have reasoned my support from it.
    So, please do not act like I have not offered support.
    I'm not acting. Maybe I missed it but as far as I can tell, you have provided NOTHING from the paper that says that gender confusion is a significant cause of the increase in suicide rate and formally CHALLENGE you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT this assertion.

    I suggest using a logic chain. Start with accepted premises and show how they lead to the conclusion you seek. So far, as far as I can tell, your logic chain goes like this.

    1. There is an increase is suicidal tendencies amongst transgendered people
    2. While some can be attributed to abuse, not all of them can
    3. Therefore, there are suicidal tendencies amongst transgendered people that cannot be attributed to discrimination
    4. For those who aren't suffering from abuse, the tendencies are caused by "something else".
    5. There are no other possibilities for that "something else" than gender confusion.
    THEREFORE - gender confusion is a significant cause of transgendered suicidal tendencies.

    And I would agree with this logic chain until point 5. There are other possibilities for the increase in suicidal tendencies than gender confusion.

    So to support your argument, you need to either show that the paper explicitly says that gender confusion is a significant factor or show that there are no other possible reasons. And to say that there are no other reasons because you don't know of any other reasons is a flawed argument as it would be appealing to the argument from ignorance fallacy. And besides that, I have provided other possible reasons in a point below.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I have done exactly that. I have forwarded that gender confusion is a mental disorder. I have supported that by showing an enormouse increase in suicide for that group accross the board.
    Just saying that that group's increase is suicide is due to gender confusion is not support that it is so.

    Nor is a group having an increase is suicide mean that the group is uniformly suffering from a mental disorder. I've already supported that a mental disorder causes problems for every person that suffers from it so some people not being suicidal shows that being transgendered does not cause suicidal tendencies and therefore cannot be considered a disease on that basis.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So. You have a burden of establishing relevance, not simply hand waving and spitballing.
    I'm not handwaving.

    OBVIOUSLY having to live a lie and not being able to be who you are is stressful. And being stressed increases the chances of suicide.

    And I'll give another reason that might explain the increase - non-acceptance from society. This is different from any overt abuse and discrimination. One can have an accepting family and be treated well by their immediate circle of people but still be aware that there is a large anti-trans feeling within society and feel distressed about that.

    I also forwarded body dysmorphia (mentioned at the end of my last post).

    So between us, we have forwarded four reasons that might contribute that are not covered by the statistics regarding abuse.

    1. Gender confusion
    2. Living in the clostet
    3. Societal non-acceptace (being aware that there is a societal bias even if one does not directly experience discrimination)
    4. Body dysmorphia.

    And I forward that there are four out of many possible reasons.

    As far as I can tell, the paper you are referring to does not forward that any of these have a significant influence on the likelihood of suicide. If I'm wrong, please show me where the paper favors any of these as a reason.

    If you can't or won't, then you have no basis to say that the paper forwards gender confusion as a valid reason for the increase in suicides.

    And please note that I'm not forwarding that 2,3,4 have any significant effect but only that they might have a significant effect. If either of us choose to forward that any of these DO have a significant effect, they will need to support that. So you cannot forward that 1 DOES have a significant effect without supporting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think "quality of life" here means mental health. I think it means how they are treated by others. (This because I thought it was quoted
    in the section discussing treatment by others and in contrast with the sexually abused etc).
    You will need to support that. You did not offer a link so I can only go by what you pasted which said that they felt that their quality of life was not negatively effected by being transgendered so that is how I interpret it. I think someone who is greatly depressed because they are transgendered would feel that being transgendered has negatively effected their quality of life.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Just a laundry list of false and unsupported assertions. Most i have challenged in the thrad so no need to repeat here.
    Talk about handwaving. Sorry, you will have to actually challenge my argument on some level or it stands as unchallenged. So I will repeat it.

    And I don't entirely dismiss the inherent health effects that can come with being transgendered. Some are clearly uncomfortable having their brains and bodies being a different gender and that would cause distress no matter how accepting society is of them. I believe that is what is known as body dysmorphia. But the obvious solution to the bodies and brains being different is to change one of them so that they align. You can't change the gender of the brain so altering the body to fit the brain will likely help fix the disconnect of the gender between the body and brain gender. So by that logic a sex change decreases the chances of one suffering and dying from dysmorphia.

    But to be clear, not all transgendered people suffer from dysmorphia so the fact that some do does not qualify transgenderism as a disease.

    Your earlier assertion that the suicide arises from a person regretting the sex change is without support.
    Last edited by mican333; March 26th, 2017 at 02:56 PM.

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  11. #130
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But it's not a fallacy to appeal to such a person
    And your point? Because a.g.a.i.n.... that is not what occured.. now is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But it's not a fallacy to appeal to such a person
    First, do you suppose that my point is invalid because you feel I have incorrectly named the fallacy?
    Second, it most certainly is a KIND of appeal to authority fallacy. Specifically it would be a version of this form of the appeal to authority fallacy.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

    It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However it is, entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.

    Example: Not able to defend his position that evolution 'isn't true' Bob says that he knows a scientist who also questions evolution (and presumably isn't a primate).

    Want to share this fallacy on Facebook? Here's a button for you:
    So my point is that the fallacy commited is the reverse version of the above.
    The above says Expert X says Y, thus it must be true.
    The objection I have made is that they offered a form of argument that was essentially
    You are not an expert therefore your position must be false.


    So on neither count are you making a good argument IMO. I would readily conciede that I have not picked the best
    expression of the NAME of the logical fallacy. It is however still a logical fallacy, and you have done nothing to address that.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Well, I didn't make that argument so I have no burden to defend it.
    You are defending that it isn't a logical fallacy.
    So.. yea, you have adopted the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    BTW, I never made or even supported this lame "you're not a doctor" argument. All I did was point out that it's not a argument from authority fallacy. So it's kind of silly to use this lame argument against me.
    Why in the world would a logically valid argument be "lame"?
    Are you just now switching it to being about the Name of the fallacy. Which is pretty chicken ****.
    I have offered argument and reasoning for why it is indeed a logical fallacy, for you to back down to just a naming issue
    is asinine.
    If this whole time you agree that it is a fallacy, just I got the name wrong, then you have been horribly unclear, and frankly have waisted my time and patience.


    If however you are arguing that because I got the name wrong, thus it isn't logically fallacious.
    Then you are committing another logical fallacy.

    If you wish to continue any discussion.
    Please be clear in agreeing that it is a logical fallacy, whatever name you wish to ascribe to it.
    Also, please do not repeat.. yet again.. an incorrect version of what has actually occurred. I have corrected you more than a few times now.

    Then I may find time to address the rest of you post.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  12. #131
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And your point? Because a.g.a.i.n.... that is not what occured.. now is it.

    First, do you suppose that my point is invalid because you feel I have incorrectly named the fallacy?
    I suppose your point is invalid because you have not successfully made the case that he has employed a logical fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So my point is that the fallacy commited is the reverse version of the above.
    The above says Expert X says Y, thus it must be true.
    The objection I have made is that they offered a form of argument that was essentially
    You are not an expert therefore your position must be false.
    But he doesn't say that. He said:

    "I don't think anyone here is a Doctor...sooo how can you diagnose someone "mentally ill"?"

    That doesn't mean that if you say that someone is mentally ill, it is a fact that they are not mentally ill (you can be correct even if you have no expertise in the area). I interpret his statement as saying that since you are not an expert, your view on the matter does not have to be accepted by anyone else. And he's entirely correct. If you aren't an expert, then your viewpoint does not qualify as support for your position.

    So either of us saying that someone is or is not mentally ill based on nothing but our own beliefs and opinions can be discarded for what we happen to think does not qualify as support. I said that transgenderism is not a mental illness and you have absolutely no obligation to accept what I say since I am not a medical expert in the field. So that's why I supported my position with links from people who are experts.

    So from my interpretation of the argument, I'd say he is correct and has committed no logical fallacies.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Why in the world would a logically valid argument be "lame"?
    Because one can make lame arguments that are logically valid. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

    One is completely correct in saying that they will not accept one's argument if they don't provide support and that appealing to self (just saying what one thinks) does not qualify as support. That's not lame. What is lame is saying something along the lines as "I can just ignore your arguments because you aren't an expert" which is basically what you said to me. I know that you were attempting to show what his argument is like so I don't attribute the lameness of what you said to you personally.

    But then that lame argument was not correctly applied anyway for I had offered support for my argument and therefore you cannot dodge it on the basis of me not being an expert since I didn't offer my own (lack of) expertise as support but instead provided support from actual experts.

    Another reason I think his argument is lame is because it's spammish (does not forward the debate). It's correct in its implication that neither of us are experts and therefore cannot just use our own views as support but that doesn't shed any light on the debate. I mean it's true that neither of us can support our positions without appealing to outside expertise but so what? We already knew that so it adds nothing.

    So his argument is not logically invalid but it is lame.




    I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post. As I've said in nearly every debate that I've had with you, if you have a complaint about me personally, send me a PM. I'm not going to bother addressing your complaining in the thread. PLEASE be polite when addressing me.

    And whether you "find time" to respond to the part of my previous post that actually addresses the topic at hand (transgenderism) is up to you. If you do, great. If not, that's fine. I don't mind having the last word - then all of my points in my previous post stand as they are not challenged further.
    Last edited by mican333; March 28th, 2017 at 07:56 AM.

 

 
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