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  1. #1
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    Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    First of all Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner is not female, despite having operations and changing his name.

    female
    1. a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
    2. an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/female

    Jenner does not have two X chromosomes, and his body will not produce human egg cells. So, the idea of sex change operations is a fraud being perpetrated on Jenner and other mentally ill people, exacerbated by liberals generally and the popular media specifically.

    And yes, he is mentally ill, as are supposed transgenders generally:


    The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

    With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption "I'm ugly." These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects' minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

    For the transgendered, this argument holds that one's feeling of "gender" is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one's mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society's tolerance of this "personal truth" but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for "transgender equality," the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.

    With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents' rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.

    How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry's domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the "recovered memory" craze.

    You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

    We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

    It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

    There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does "reassignment" seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men's prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.

    Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from "everything is normal" sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. "Diversity" counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.

    Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston's Children's Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children's growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.

    At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

    Dr. McHugh, former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, is the author of "Try to Remember: Psychiatry's Clash Over Meaning, Memory, and Mind" (Dana Press, 2008).
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mch...ion-1402615120
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  3. #2
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First of all Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner is not female, despite having operations and changing his name.

    female
    1. a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
    2. an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/female

    Jenner does not have two X chromosomes, and his body will not produce human egg cells. So, the idea of sex change operations is a fraud being perpetrated on Jenner and other mentally ill people, exacerbated by liberals generally and the popular media specifically.
    1) I don't think this sort of thing is anything new.

    2) I don't think Jenner underwent this change over a desire to reproduce.

    3) So what if it is a product of mental illness?

    Interesting aside that doesn't bear on the topic at hand: Bruce Jenner: I Am A Woman, A Christian And A Republican

  4. #3
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    1) I don't think this sort of thing is anything new.
    What's new is that it is promoted as a supposed right, and is covered by insurance plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    2) I don't think Jenner underwent this change over a desire to reproduce.
    By use of the word "change" are you claiming that he is now female? Or do you concede that he is a feminized man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    3) So what if it is a product of mental illness?
    Tell me why the rest of us should pay higher insurance premiums or higher taxes for what is really just cosmetic surgery demanded by the mentally ill?
    Why should the rest of us be expected to accept him and others like him as a woman? Why should we accept the desire for "gender reassignment" as anything more than an indication of a certain mental illness?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #4
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    You are correct and you are incorrect. Correct in that Jenner is not technically a woman, but wrong in that he is mentally ill. He thinks that he has a woman's soul and a mans body. it is a mystical belief, not much different from other beliefs about souls and gods and demons and so on. Far too common to be termed a mental illness I think unless all religious believers want to take up the label. Can you in any way prove Jenner doesn't have a woman's soul?

    There are of course people born with both sex organs and both types of chromosomes. Beyond that much of what we today identify as Male and Female has little to do with your gonads or your chromosomes. Sex identification, behavior and social roles are all often socially defined. There are animals that change from one sex to another over the course of their lives. Its not as black and white as many of us find our own sexuality to be.

    Personally if I felt I was a woman I'd just find it novel to be a woman in a mans body. Or conversely if I had a woman's body I'd just sort out how to make due. Surgery just so I can soft of look different makes no sense to me. But its not my life so I don't much care. These people are rare enough its not exactly a big problem even if they hike up my insurance by a cent or two. I pay a lot more for folks who just smoke and drink too much.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  6. #5
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What's new is that it is promoted as a supposed right, and is covered by insurance plans.
    Well, where is it stated in the OP that we're debating whether taxes should pay for gender re-assignment surgery? I thought we were talking about whether or not Jenner is mentally ill, not issues with insurance and taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    By use of the word "change" are you claiming that he is now female? Or do you concede that he is a feminized man?
    No, I'm not claiming anything except that I don't think Jenner was motivated by a desire to reproduce, and the only reason I mentioned that is because you talked about eggs and chromosomes in your OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Tell me why the rest of us should pay higher insurance premiums or higher taxes for what is really just cosmetic surgery demanded by the mentally ill?
    Well, again, you didn't say that the debate was about taxes. You said "Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill." and went on to make an argument to that end. If the debate is "We should not have to pay taxes to fund cosmetic surgery for mentally ill people", I think you should been more explicit in your opening post.

  7. #6
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, where is it stated in the OP that we're debating whether taxes should pay for gender re-assignment surgery? I thought we were talking about whether or not Jenner is mentally ill, not issues with insurance and taxes.
    I was laying the groundwork first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    No, I'm not claiming anything except that I don't think Jenner was motivated by a desire to reproduce, and the only reason I mentioned that is because you talked about eggs and chromosomes in your OP.
    Then I'll move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, again, you didn't say that the debate was about taxes. You said "Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill." and went on to make an argument to that end. If the debate is "We should not have to pay taxes to fund cosmetic surgery for mentally ill people", I think you should been more explicit in your opening post.
    You're just being a crotchety old man.

    ---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    You are ...wrong in that he is mentally ill...
    Do you have support for that position from any psychiatrist of experience and stature comparable to Dr. McHugh?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  9. #7
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Here is where I think the article is right:
    The idea of changing gender is largely a fantasy.

    Wearing a wig, shaving your legs, cutting off your genitals.... sorry... does not make you a girl. It makes a you dude who chopped off his penis. When Lorana Bobbitt chopped off her husband's penis, did she turn him into a girl? Even a little bit? Was he Mrs. Bobbitt until the sewed it back on? Am I the only person in the world who saw Jenner's picture and gagged a little in my mouth. It was a picture of a middle aged dude wearing a ton of makeup in a tight dress. It reminded me of Klinger from M.A.S.H. with less hair.

    Here is where I think the article is wrong:
    People who wish to change gender have a mental disorder.

    Here, I think the Dr. was being to generalized. Some transgendered people may have disorders. Any disorder is classified by doing some sort of harm to one's personal or professional life. If some guy wants to throw on a dress, shave his legs and call himself Judy, it is not a problem. Unless, such a choice leads to other consequences, such as isolation from family/friends, loss of job, suicidal ideations, etc. I think the article did not really make that clear.

    I do agree with one of the conclusions of the article.
    It is egregious to give kids drugs to stunt their growth just because they show confusion over gender identity. This is just sort of sick, in my mind and parents who make this choice for their kids are absolutely out of their mind. This is especially true if the data provided in the article is valid; if 80% of these kids would work things out on their own with meds or surgery, then my goodness, what are people thinking?

    I agree with the OP's author on a more general point:
    TG folks in the prison system should be forced to perform their incarceration according to whatever gender they were when the crime was committed and the idea of tax payers funding what amounts to cosmetic surgery is obscene.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  11. #8
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you have support for that position from any psychiatrist of experience and stature comparable to Dr. McHugh?
    Mr HcHugh offers no personal diagnosis of Mr Jenner so your contention that he thinks him mentally ill is unfounded. Jenner is not confused about his chromosomes. He is not unaware that he has the body of a man. Be believes he has the soul of a woman and not even Mr McHugh can offer any real argument for or against that contention.

    There is a mental disorder for transgender and you need to be diagnosed with it to get medical treatment. Some would like to see it removed much as was homosexuality. But whether or not Mr Jenner suffers from that would be an individual diagnosis. Mind you I would not be shocked if he qualified but I wanted to argue the matter from a pragmatic perspective.

    Is Jenner "suffering" from an "illness" from which he needs to recover? I would not see it that way. He feels he is a woman and wants to live as one.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  12. #9
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Mr. McHugh offers no personal diagnosis of Mr Jenner so your contention that he thinks him mentally ill is unfounded.
    Dr. McHugh stated in the first sentence: "The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists." You can't exclude Jenner from that blanket statement.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Bruce Jenner certainly is a man. He was born a man, he will die as one. It makes no difference how much makeup he wears, how he styles his hair, how many same sex people he sleeps with, how many body parts he removes, what sort of hormones he takes, how many Liberals call him a "Her", or how desperately he believes otherwise, he will ALWAYS genetically, biologically, and scientifically be a male.

    That much isn't even in question.

    That being said, I really don't think it is anyone's business as to what sex he claims to be or wants to be. Its no ones business as to what modifications he does to himself. And it really doesn't matter if he is mentally ill or not (though any reasonable person certainly could arrive to the conclusion that he is)

    It is his body, he can do with it as he pleases. If he wants to pretend to be female, go for it. Him doing that doesn't violate my rights, liberties, or freedoms, so idgaf.

    My irritation with this whole deal is squarely rested on these points:

    1) Trying to label him as courageous, brave, etc. for "Transitioning into a female" (Something that no one can do.) There is nothing brave about that. There is nothing heroic about it. Labeling him that cheapens and devalues the term and spits in the face of those who truly are courageous, brave, and heroic.

    2) The Liberal obsession with trying to force acceptance down the throats of everyone. Liberals are, by far, the most hateful, hypocritical group in America when it comes to dealing with those who don't agree with them. Legal tolerance is all that is necessary in our society. You do not EVER have the right to be accepted. You do not have the right to NOT be offended. I think that most people are tolerant of the fact that Bruce should have the right to make whatever changes to himself that he wants. If they don't, then they are wrong. However, we are under no obligation to accept and support him for his poor choices...or, perhaps better said, choices that we do not agree with. Liberals have a sickening obsession with trying to force acceptance down the throats of everyone who disagrees with them. They do so at their own peril.

    We don't need a society where every single life choice is celebrated by the whole of society. And people don't need to be attacked by the hypocritical, bigoted, intolerant, left with their myopic world views. I can recognize that you have the right to do things that I disagree with, yet, not think it is ok. And you know what, that is perfectly fine.

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  15. #11
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    By use of the word "change" are you claiming that he is now female? Or do you concede that he is a dickless man?
    fixed that for you

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    There are of course people born with both sex organs and both types of chromosomes. Beyond that much of what we today identify as Male and Female has little to do with your gonads or your chromosomes. Sex identification, behavior and social roles are all often socially defined. There are animals that change from one sex to another over the course of their lives. Its not as black and white as many of us find our own sexuality to be.
    That is all a red-herring because none of that is in play here. The man being discussed was not born with both types of chromosomes (a very rare thing), and humans don't grow penises when there aren't enough around, or suddenly grow a uterus when their mate dies.
    For the human race it is pretty much black and white, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.

    The idea that seeing a penis on a person and concluding they are a man(no matter what that person says) is not a sound conclusion, is ridiculous and should be laughed out the building.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  17. #12
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    That being said, I really don't think it is anyone's business as to what sex he claims to be or wants to be. Its no ones business as to what modifications he does to himself. And it really doesn't matter if he is mentally ill or not (though any reasonable person certainly could arrive to the conclusion that he is)
    We don't allow mentally ill people to commit suicide, do we? Why should we look the other way and let them mutilate themselves?

    There are other people with what seem to be similar mental illnesses, convinced that their arms or legs should be cut off, and want to become disabled: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...working-bodies

    If a member of your family wanted to cut off an arm, would you just stand back and say, "Hey, it's your choice"? I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    1) Trying to label him as courageous, brave, etc. for "Transitioning into a female" (Something that no one can do.) There is nothing brave about that. There is nothing heroic about it. Labeling him that cheapens and devalues the term and spits in the face of those who truly are courageous, brave, and heroic.
    Exactly right. Jenner is no hero. He's just one sick dude.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    We don't allow mentally ill people to commit suicide, do we?
    We don't allow anyone to commit suicide for any reason, as far as I know. I really don't think it is societies business as to whether someone wants to commit suicide or not. If you have decided that you are done with this life and don't want to live it anymore, I have no business forcibly stopping you from ending it.

    However, that really is another subject altogether. Committing suicide and undergoing a "Sex change" is not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are other people with what seem to be similar mental illnesses, convinced that their arms or legs should be cut off, and want to become disabled: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...working-bodies
    Again, not really the same issue. Wanting to cut off an arm to become disabled is not the same thing as wanting to undergo a "Sex change"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If a member of your family wanted to cut off an arm, would you just stand back and say, "Hey, it's your choice"? I doubt it.
    Cutting off an arm for no reason is radically different than undergoing a "Sex change". So, I will assume the question is "If a member of your family wanted to undergo a "Sex change" operation, would you just stand back and say, "Hey, it's your choice"? I doubt it" and respond to that. My answer would be, I would try to talk them out of it. I would be strongly against it, but I would not use force to make them not do it.

    People have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights, liberties, and freedoms. Someone doing that does none of those things.

  19. #14
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Evensaul, Someguy... very interesting points here.

    On the one hand we have the idea of the proper role of the gov to protect the people even from themselves, and on the other we have the rights of the individual.

    On Evensauls side, the argument that once you say a person is crazy we generally allow the state to take actions to secure that persons safety even from themselves and to address the mental issue even against their will. No matter how much a person likes to cut their self, they will probably find themselves in a mental institution and probably should.

    On the other hand, we have the general acceptance of Cosmetic Surgery's. such that our society doesn't put you in a psyc ward because you implant 4ft long horns into your head, or 35 gallon breast implants.

    To that extent, getting a medical "lopadickofame" procedure is not like a guy who takes a chain saw to his arm, in that the former is much more like 35gal breast implants done with medica supervision and is pretty much the most responsible way to go about such a procedure, while the latter would be more in line if the guy took his garden shears to mr winky.

    That said, the underlying point about the mental disorder is pretty sound. There is very little difference in believing that your arm doesn't belong on you, or that your penis doesn't belong on you. For that reason, I think the person who desires to cut off a body part should receive counseling and mental help until they are cured in an environment where they are not a danger to their selves, and I don't think that medically facilitating the mental disorder is something we should allow as a society.
    I think the doctor that does breast implants is medically irresponsible to implant 35 gallons of liquid into a womans body, no matter how much she would like it. my point is there is a spectrum.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    That said, the underlying point about the mental disorder is pretty sound. There is very little difference in believing that your arm doesn't belong on you, or that your penis doesn't belong on you. For that reason, I think the person who desires to cut off a body part should receive counseling and mental help until they are cured in an environment where they are not a danger to their selves, and I don't think that medically facilitating the mental disorder is something we should allow as a society.
    I think the doctor that does breast implants is medically irresponsible to implant 35 gallons of liquid into a womans body, no matter how much she would like it. my point is there is a spectrum.
    The problem I have here is this, you are essentially empowering the government to start making board sweeping generalized decisions about what constitutes mental illness. It allows the government the ability to enforce its own standard of morality upon the whole of society.

    If the government can start saying that individuals who "Are male but feel trapped in a female body" etc are mentally ill and therefore the government has the RIGHT to stop them from under taking actions which IT deems self-harming ("sex change" cosmetic surgery) then it is not a stretch to assume that they would use this power to declare veterans mentally ill and then use that label to stop vets from under taking actions which IT deems "Self-harming", like shooting guns, for example.

    I rather the government not have the ability to "Protect" individuals from self-harm. I'm pretty well read in the Constitution, and don't recall seeing that as a power reserved for the government.

    As you well know, if you give a government, particularly a Liberal government, any crack in which they can stick their liberty robbing tentacles, they will do so...and do so to the furthest extend possible.

    You, as an individual, and we, as a society, do not have to like what Bruce wants to do / has done to himself. We don't have to accept it, support it, agree with it, acknowledge it, or anything else. I, personally, think it is a deprived act of a very sick man who has some very serious freakin' issues in the general area of self-hatred. If he was a friend of mine, I would have discouraged what he did, and I would have never accepted it.

    However, I have no right, either though my personal actions or though the actions of an elected body, to tell him what he must and must not do with his life as so long as those things he wishes to do are not infringing on the rights, liberties, and freedoms of myself or anyone else.

    Its not the governments job to protect people from themselves. Its the job of the government to protect and defend personal liberty, freedom, and rights.

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Cutting off an arm for no reason is radically different than undergoing a "Sex change". So, I will assume the question is "If a member of your family wanted to undergo a "Sex change" operation, would you just stand back and say, "Hey, it's your choice"? I doubt it" and respond to that. My answer would be, I would try to talk them out of it. I would be strongly against it, but I would not use force to make them not do it.
    You gotta be kidding. I'd rather lose an arm that have my dick cut off. And if I were ever screwed up enough in the head to announce that I was going to have a "reassignment" operation, I would hope my family has the good sense to have me committed to an institution or tie me to a chair until I come to my senses. I can only imagine what it would be like, a year after to surgery, to suddenly be clear-headed and horrified at what I had irreversibly done.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You gotta be kidding. I'd rather lose an arm that have my dick cut off. And if I were ever screwed up enough in the head to announce that I was going to have a "reassignment" operation, I would hope my family has the good sense to have me committed to an institution or tie me to a chair until I come to my senses. I can only imagine what it would be like, a year after to surgery, to suddenly be clear-headed and horrified at what I had irreversibly done.
    Well, make your wishes well known to your family and friends. And make sure they have plenty of rope at the ready to tie you down if you ever feel the need to chop your penis off =] What you would prefer to happen to you, has no impact and carries no weight with what should be done with Bruce. (nothing)

  23. #18
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    People have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights, liberties, and freedoms.
    Not true. We have many laws in place to protect people from their own stupidity or ignorance, such as requirements for seat-belts, sky diving training, scuba certification, and reduced speed-limits on dangerous curves. I could go on and on, if I had the time. So you may think you should have unlimited personal rights, but that is not the case.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    What you would prefer to happen to you, has no impact and carries no weight with what should be done with Bruce. (nothing)
    I was rebutting your implied suggestion that having reassignment surgery is less severe than having an arm lopped off. I think most men would disagree with you.

    Should suicide be legal for anyone of any age in any mental condition? If not, why not? I want to know where you draw the line for such things, or if anything goes.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  24. #19
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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Dr. McHugh stated in the first sentence: "The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists." You can't exclude Jenner from that blanket statement.
    There is no "disorder of assumption" its called "gender dysphoria" in the psychiatric literature.

    I agree that Jenner probably qualifies in McHugh's statement but none the less I find the idea that you just round up people like that and call them all mentally ill objectionable. Every human being is an individual and how they think and feel about themselves is their own business. Unless they are doing demonstrable harm to themselves or others and even sometimes when they harm themselves so long as it is not a great mortal threat, we should let them live as they choose.

    Jenner isn't hurting anyone, nor doing any great harm to himself so to say he has an illness in the sense we generally understand it is wrong in my book. Clearly it is not normative, but pretty much everyone alive does some things that are not normative. This is a dramatic situation, but hardly one where I'd call the man sick. He could demand he be a potato for all I care.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Bruce Jenner is MAN who is mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    There is no "disorder of assumption" its called "gender dysphoria" in the psychiatric literature.

    I agree that Jenner probably qualifies in McHugh's statement but none the less I find the idea that you just round up people like that and call them all mentally ill objectionable.
    Sig, we have lots of people in our society who have mental/psychological disorders. About one in four people will experience a mental health problem at some point in their lives. They are part of our world and of life. It's OK and, yes, these people live and function in our society in different ways. Who said anything about rounding them up?

    Every human being is an individual and how they think and feel about themselves is their own business.
    That's right and if someone believed, for example, that they had the soul evolution of a dog and wanted to live like a dog, I trust our current society could find a way of dealing with that mental condition also. We're a highly adaptable species and there's nothing wrong with understanding that some people have mental issues. That doesn't mean they can't be functional, live their life as best they can and make a contribution in some way.

    Unless they are doing demonstrable harm to themselves or others and even sometimes when they harm themselves so long as it is not a great mortal threat, we should let them live as they choose.
    Well, as far as who pays for their support and the consequences of their mental condition is debatable.

    This is a dramatic situation, but hardly one where I'd call the man sick.
    You might be surprised of how many people you come in contact with over the course of a month or two who who have some type of mental disorder. You may not the like the term mental/psychological disorder (illness), but that may be a personal issue of your perception.
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 3rd, 2015 at 11:24 AM.
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