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  1. #1
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    Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    I had hoped Paul would bring some movement away from the lost culture wars - and had believed he could win in that regards - but his statements parrot Fox News and their misguided righteous indignation:

    https://youtu.be/OHwLNjUrTOg

    ---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

    "Under federal law, facilities may be reimbursed for costs associated with fetal tissue donation, like transportation and storage." http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/op...arenthood.html


    Cruz's statement is the most rational (considering that even that is far out).

    "After the first video’s release, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky pledged to “introduce an amendment to pending Senate legislation to immediately strip every dollar of Planned Parenthood funding.” Senator Ted Cruz of Texas called for defunding and for “an investigation of Planned Parenthood’s activities regarding the sale and transfer of aborted body parts.”"

    ---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

    Did Paul do this to solidify his connection to that part of the base?
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I had hoped Paul would bring some movement away from the lost culture wars
    Well it's a bit of a side issue, but I'm not sure why you think this issue is a "lost" one. A strong plurality of Americans think abortion should essentially be limited to medical necessity. 58% to 27%. Ironically, that percentage becomes even higher if we only poll women. What's more when you ask Americans about abortion as only a medical necessity then you find support for that limitation increasing over time.

    So I'm not sure in what sense it is lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    "Under federal law, facilities may be reimbursed for costs associated with fetal tissue donation, like transportation and storage." http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/op...arenthood.html
    I think Paul (and many peoples') concern is that they weren't selling these aborted babies just for incurred costs. They were clearly seeking a profit in the video Media Matters put up.

    Not only does the PP official cite a cost estimate of $100, then accepts $200, but notes in the video that they are happy if "they can do a little better than break even..."

    And that, I think, gets to Sen. Paul's concerns. He is, after all, a doctor, and has been Pro-Life for his entire political career. Don't confuse the position of his father and himself for bans being at the state rather than federal level with being pro-choice.

    Remember that it was his father who famously said that he had been a doctor for thirty years and had yet to see a single medically necessary abortion. He was the one who coined the term abortion of convenience.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    I think Paul (and many peoples') concern is that they weren't selling these aborted babies just for incurred costs. They were clearly seeking a profit in the video Media Matters put up.

    Your link goes to Breitbart, not Media Matters. What video are you talking about?

    ---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Well it's a bit of a side issue, but I'm not sure why you think this issue is a "lost" one. A strong plurality of Americans think abortion should essentially be limited to medical necessity. 58% to 27%. Ironically, that percentage becomes even higher if we only poll women. What's more when you ask Americans about abortion as only a medical necessity then you find support for that limitation increasing over time.

    So I'm not sure in what sense it is lost.

    I find it ironic that the libertarians that will go off about not being able to but an incandescent light bulb will do such an about face when it comes to a person's body. Let's be glad we don't rule by polls.

    Ultimately, since I don't see any bans on international travel for abortions, the questions becomes one of economics with the pro-lifers attacking those least likely to put up any type of resistance or be able to find help elsewhere.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    I find it ironic that the libertarians that will go off about not being able to but an incandescent light bulb will do such an about face when it comes to a person's body. Let's be glad we don't rule by polls.

    Ultimately, since I don't see any bans on international travel for abortions, the questions becomes one of economics with the pro-lifers attacking those least likely to put up any type of resistance or be able to find help elsewhere.
    I find the libertarian wing of the Republican party to demonstrate irony on a great many issues, but abortion is one of the more gray areas. I understand you frame abortion as a women's right to control her body. However, many of those against abortion see it as an issue of murder. So, removing federal funding for a group like Planned Parenthood, which has openly supported abortion rights, actually seems like a reasonable libertarian goal.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your link goes to Breitbart, not Media Matters. What video are you talking about?
    Did you only look at the link address and not the link? The link is a story on Breitbart about a post on Media Matters. The video is available on both sites as well as on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, whatever your poison.


    I'm curious if any of the other points I made struck you as interesting.

    IE that the director clearly is indicating that they are seeking profit. That she is willing to accept a higher price, showing she isn't using cost as her only reference. And that Paul's position has always been pro-life because he is a doctor familiar with the procedure?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I find it ironic that the libertarians that will go off about not being able to but an incandescent light bulb will do such an about face when it comes to a person's body. Let's be glad we don't rule by polls.
    I would encourage you to check your premises. You think it is ironic because in the one case they want to allow the individual to choose, but in the other not (the fact that the exact same irony would apply to progressives doesn't seem to have been noticed), but that assumes they see the baby the same way you do. Many libertarians view the baby as a human being and thus has the same sovereignty as the parent.

    As for polls, again we see the "speck in your eye, what about the plank in mine" effect. The irony that you are glad we don't "rule by polls" here, but will happily cite a poll if it supports gay marriage, Obamacare, or any other favored project. You, like the Roman Senators of old, want the plebs to vote when they support your position, but won't "risk it" to the vote when they might not.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Did you only look at the link address and not the link? The link is a story on Breitbart about a post on Media Matters. The video is available on both sites as well as on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, whatever your poison.

    IE that the director clearly is indicating that they are seeking profit. That she is willing to accept a higher price, showing she isn't using cost as her only reference.
    Add your link to the video and tell me at what time your argument comes from and I'll watch it.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You think it is ironic because in the one case they want to allow the individual to choose, but in the other not
    Yes.

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The irony that you are glad we don't "rule by polls" here, but will happily cite a poll if it supports gay marriage, Obamacare, or any other favored project.
    I'm certain polls were used very effectively against Obamacare and gay marriage. I'm pretty sure I haven't used one in the same manner.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Add your link to the video and tell me at what time your argument comes from and I'll watch it.
    I linked you the article with the transcript. I then explained the significance of the link and the context of her statements. I'm not here to do your research for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Yes.
    And you don't see what a shallow, uncharitable view of libertarians that is?

    Is it ironic that they would like people to be able to choose sexual partners, but not able to choose to kill or rob someone?

    And, is it also ironic that progressives would like people to be free to kill their offspring, but not free to choose their own lightbulbs?


    Seriously though, nothing on my points addressing your OP?


    IE that the director clearly is indicating that they are seeking profit. That she is willing to accept a higher price, showing she isn't using cost as her only reference. And that Paul's position has always been pro-life because he is a doctor familiar with the procedure?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I linked you the article with the transcript. I then explained the significance of the link and the context of her statements. I'm not here to do your research for you.
    You linked to Breitbart and told me that the link was in your link. I'm sure if I did the same thing you'd be typing in red right now.

    We're also discussing a situation involving accusations of a heavily edited for misleading purposes video. Support your accusation that she was seeking profit.

    Planned Parenthood is also a non-profit organization.

    ---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And that Paul's position has always been pro-life because he is a doctor familiar with the procedure?
    That's a fair enough explanation. Isn't he an ENT doctor?

    ---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And, is it also ironic that progressives would like people to be free to kill their offspring, but not free to choose their own lightbulbs?
    No, since there's no lack of babies. It's one of the simplest things to do. Heavily retarded people do it, young children do it, people in concentration camps do it.

    New types of illumination needed incentives to encourage development and to get people used to them and to get over the initial costs (including the paranoia).

    So there's no comparison.

    ---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I understand you frame abortion as a women's right to control her body. However, many of those against abortion see it as an issue of murder. So, removing federal funding for a group like Planned Parenthood, which has openly supported abortion rights, actually seems like a reasonable libertarian goal.
    Removing all funding? Even though so much of what they do is not abortions?
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, since there's no lack of babies. It's one of the simplest things to do. Heavily retarded people do it, young children do it, people in concentration camps do it.

    New types of illumination needed incentives to encourage development and to get people used to them and to get over the initial costs (including the paranoia).

    So there's no comparison.

    This may be off-topic, but this comment stood out to me.

    Cowboy here is saying it is ok to use government/legislation to change societal behavior.

    Now, assuming you believe having babies you cannot afford, venereal disease, and underage sex is a bad thing, then would you support penalties for this behavior? Isn't government funded abortions removing one of the key disincentives to this bad behavior? To Squatch's point, you believe it is fine to penalize people for using the wrong kind of light bulb, but that there should be no consequence imposed for poor sexual choices. This seems like a case of legislating morality where you see fit and ignoring it when it does not fit in nicely with your politics.

    The truth is that both behaviors could be penalized by government via legislation, but to my knowledge, liberals have only sought to limit incandescent bulbs while removing all roadblocks to having sex responsibly.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    It's still an issue for many, though not any more than it already was. A lot of the right despise planned parenthood on principle and are just looking for reasons to go after them. They are however one of the leading forces preventing abortion as much as they are one of the ones providing it.

    While it's a legal practice I'm sure there are many out there who none the less oppose it as immoral. (I'm not one of them.)
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It's still an issue for many, though not any more than it already was.
    I think this is very likely true for both wings of the issue. Those who strongly support abortion see the fetus as tissue, nothing more. I can't see them getting worked up about selling it for research.

    Those who are strongly opposed are, well, already strongly opposed.

    There might be some play in the middle, but I'm not really sure how much. The largest bulk of people on this issue fall into a somewhat middle range where abortion can be ok if it is rape or if the life of the mother is in danger, but generally would like rules prohibiting more general abortions. Their response will generally depend, I imagine, on how they view the fetus, more like the supporters or the opponents. The one advantage I think the opponents have here is that a lot of these videos seem very callous and cold about this. PP doesn't really have a strong positive image anyway, so that might play into this.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    I'm not sure if the light bulb example is a case case of accurate prediction. Were my new LED streetlights - which are beautiful and so much better than the fluorescent, then halogen ones we had - known to be coming? I don't know. But it certainly has worked out and the black market and hoarding of the naysayers and paranoids hasn't happened.

    From your argument "having babies you cannot afford, venereal disease, and underage sex" is the consequence, yes. What other penalty is required? Reproductive healthcare and education provides the incentives.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure if the light bulb example is a case case of accurate prediction. Were my new LED streetlights - which are beautiful and so much better than the fluorescent, then halogen ones we had - known to be coming? I don't know. But it certainly has worked out and the black market and hoarding of the naysayers and paranoids hasn't happened.

    From your argument "having babies you cannot afford, venereal disease, and underage sex" is the consequence, yes. What other penalty is required? Reproductive healthcare and education provides the incentives.
    Based on how you support regulating light bulbs, couldn't we make out of wedlock children susceptible to a fine? Make it illegal? Certainly, taxpayer funded abortions seems to remove some of the disincentive to not practicing safe sex. Shouldn't we make abortions more expensive? Maybe we should tax people for having irresponsible sex which could go into a larger fund which supports abortions. We can regulate unsafe sex like light bulbs. Hey, its all about a better world, right?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Based on how you support regulating light bulbs, couldn't we make out of wedlock children susceptible to a fine? Make it illegal?
    You're saying there's something wrong with all out of wedlock children?

    ---------- Post added at 03:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Make it illegal? Certainly, taxpayer funded abortions seems to remove some of the disincentive to not practicing safe sex. Shouldn't we make abortions more expensive? Maybe we should tax people for having irresponsible sex which could go into a larger fund which supports abortions. We can regulate unsafe sex like light bulbs. Hey, its all about a better world, right?
    An abortion is a physically and mentally traumatizing medical procedure. That'd be like saying we should outlaw root canals as an incentive to better brushing.

    Let's try making illegal the prohibitions against sex education and availability and access to contraception.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're saying there's something wrong with all out of wedlock children?
    I am saying it is irresponsible to have children out of wedlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    An abortion is a physically and mentally traumatizing medical procedure. That'd be like saying we should outlaw root canals as an incentive to better brushing.
    Why not? Add better brushing to the list. You're the one who believes we should use legislation to force changes of behavior. Better brushing, safer sex, healthier eating, eco friendly light bulbs. I am failing to see where you draw the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Let's try making illegal the prohibitions against sex education and availability and access to contraception.
    That is not an equivalent analogy. I am not proposing we refuse to educate people on which light bulbs are better for the environment. I am suggesting there is something sinister about using government regulation to enact behavior changes.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am saying it is irresponsible to have children out of wedlock.
    That's a quaint opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Why not? Add better brushing to the list. You're the one who believes we should use legislation to force changes of behavior. Better brushing, safer sex, healthier eating, eco friendly light bulbs. I am failing to see where you draw the line.
    Sensible legislation. You're saying we should kill the patient to cure the disease. That's nothing but hyperbole.

    ---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    That is not an equivalent analogy. I am not proposing we refuse to educate people on which light bulbs are better for the environment. I am suggesting there is something sinister about using government regulation to enact behavior changes.
    Right, but you're also not saying we should outlaw sex, just the ways to deal with problems that arise from it.
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's a quaint opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------



    Sensible legislation. You're saying we should kill the patient to cure the disease. That's nothing but hyperbole.

    ---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------



    Right, but you're also not saying we should outlaw sex, just the ways to deal with problems that arise from it.
    I am not proposing that we outlaw anything. I was just demonstrating that your position is logically inconsistent.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not proposing that we outlaw anything. I was just demonstrating that your position is logically inconsistent.
    My position is that, as a society, we do things to effect desired outcomes. That we do different things - a sanction here, a subsidy there, education over here - depending on the case and circumstances doesn't defeat that logic.

    ---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Clearly paying per part is not a simple reimbursement of cost since costs are not associated with which organs are removed, but a bulk procedure.

    I still don't see video from Media Matters. I see a link to here: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...e-edits/204419

    Where they explain how the video was misleadingly edited...also in the Breitbart source.


    "David Daleidan Is A Former Writer For Discredited Anti-Choice Organization Live Action. David Daleiden, the contact person regarding The Central For Medical Progress' video, is a former writer for discredited anti-choice organization Live Action News. The group has previously come under fire for deceptively editing undercover footage of abortion clinics in order to make false claims about Planned Parenthood. [Live Action News, accessed, 7/14/15; Media Matters for America, 2/4/11; Media Matters for America, 5/31/12]" http://mediamatters.org/research/201...e-edits/204419
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  19. #19
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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I still don't see video from Media Matters.
    See Post 2, it is the link to Breitbart you noticed. It is literally the first link in their article and embedded at the top of the text.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Where they explain how the video was misleadingly edited...also in the Breitbart source.
    You'll forgive me if I don't take Media Matter's word for it that it was deceptive. Can you support your claim that it was deceptively edited? Not that Media Matters personally finds it deceptive, what about the editing makes it actually deceptive? What excluded parts tell a different story?





    Now, you seem to have ignored a section of the response.


    1)

    a) Are you saying that abortion is a population control program in the US?

    b) Can you point out where abortion has been justified because there are “too many babies?” (I can, but I don’t think you’ll like the source).


    c) Can you point out where light bulb restrictions were implemented because of a light bulb shortage?



    2) So you are saying that only Progressives know about new, profitable inventions like LED light bulbs? And that business owners are too stupid to realize that they could make more money through them?

    Not only that, but that Progressives are smarter than the general American and know what is best for that American’s personal life?



    3) Do you have any defense for the concept that pricing based on body parts is a clear indication of profit seeking?



    4) Do you have any defense of the initial video's clear evidence of profit seeking as highlighted in post 18?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Planned Parenthood Fetal Tissue Non-Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    My position is that, as a society, we do things to effect desired outcomes. That we do different things - a sanction here, a subsidy there, education over here - depending on the case and circumstances doesn't defeat that logic.

    Yes, we do. But should we? I mean, you complain when people want to define marriage to encourage two-parent families. However, if your position is that government should be in the business of social engineering, then isn't everything fair game?

    "My position is that, as a society, we do things to effect desired outcomes. "

    That is your quote. So, if the desired outcome is less aborted fetuses or more two-parent families, then wouldn't you expect society to enact legislation (i.e. sanctions, subsidies, et al.) in order to promote these outcomes? Do you have room to complain when government chooses to endorse outcomes you do not like? This is the game you are playing. It is a game I'd like to see less. Or, I believe this game is most fair when applied at the local level so that all Americans have opportunities to achieve outcomes they find most desirable instead of being forced into outcomes defined by razor thin majorities. When you are prepared to use government as a hammer, then you should also understand that a time will come when you're the nail.
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