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  1. #21
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, suggesting that Obama has made the region more stable is not only laughable, it is downright ignorant.
    I never said that. The region only had the facade of stability as proven by that as soon as we left it fell apart like a classroom when the teacher steps out.

    We have no stomach for any more prolonged occupations in that area, never did.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #22
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I never said that. The region only had the facade of stability as proven by that as soon as we left it fell apart like a classroom when the teacher steps out.

    We have no stomach for any more prolonged occupations in that area, never did.
    I rather a fašade of stability than no stability at all.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  3. #23
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I rather a fašade of stability than no stability at all.
    I'm not willing to sacrifice my brother or sister for said facade, neither was the rest of the country.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #24
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not willing to sacrifice my brother or sister for said facade, neither was the rest of the country.
    This still doesn't justify your argument that the ME is more stable today than it was 7 years ago.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  5. #25
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    This still doesn't justify your argument that the ME is more stable today than it was 7 years ago.
    Because it wasn't stable...hence the facade.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #26
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Because it wasn't stable...hence the facade.
    I think it was on the road to lasting stability.. evidenced by it's apparent stability with decreasing U.S. involvement (not nonexistent u.s involvement).
    The reason why it didn't stay stable, is because we pulled out too quickly, and thus changed the road it was on (a miss management of the situation by Obama). Being the middle east, the road to ruin is well worn and a quick trip.
    It's not like we don't have forces in other parts of the world to help maintain stability, the only place we don't have a foot hold now is the ME. So I don't think our decreased level of involvement, while still being present would have been unacceptable for the People of America.

    I personally still lean to the belief that the people of that area are ungovernable(save for a savage dictator), but I take the word of my friend who was stationed there that tells me otherwise.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  7. #27
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think it was on the road to lasting stability.. evidenced by it's apparent stability with decreasing U.S. involvement (not nonexistent u.s involvement).
    The reason why it didn't stay stable, is because we pulled out too quickly, and thus changed the road it was on (a miss management of the situation by Obama).
    It took the surge (more involvement) to get on that road so the US population wasn't believing that and it wasn't just an occupation or peacekeeping mission, they were faced with a motivated and determined enemy.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #28
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    It took the surge (more involvement) to get on that road so the US population wasn't believing that and it wasn't just an occupation or peacekeeping mission, they were faced with a motivated and determined enemy.
    So, it took more involvement to lead to less involvement with equal or greater stability.
    Yes it is a motivated and determined enemy.

    So what is your point, and what exactly is your counter?

    Are you disagreeing that it was on the road to permanent stability with some level of our involvement, as it experienced a period of stability?
    Do you disagree that our premature withdrawal was a major part in the destabilization that followed?

    ---Stability---
    This idea we are talking about is not very clear IMO. I use it to indicate one of two things.
    In the sense that Israel is stable, even though it faces serious external and internal attacks from those that wish to destroy it. (this is a short term usage)

    In the sense of America, where we have several hundred years of peace.

    The idea of stability is one where it is not falling down. In the first sense it requires us to have some level of involvement as the state developed it's own national identity that the people would seek to protect.
    In the second sense, no outside intervention is necessary.

    I contend that we had Iraq firmly on the path to the first sense. The people voted in the face of death threats, so they were developing a national identity. After the surge we were able to decrease our involvement, and the nation remained stable. Our withdrawal evidenced the fact that they required some level of involvement, if only military leadership.


    For all the mistakes that can be pointed to, or debates about how we got to that point. It is pretty indisputable that after the surge, they were on the right path.. and then there was a change to the wrong path directly related to our actions of total withdrawal. Also, that right path did not require massive occupational levels of involvement, and we could have expected that involvement to continue to decrease over time.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #29
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Are you disagreeing that it was on the road to permanent stability with some level of our involvement, as it experienced a period of stability?
    Yes. How do you define "a period of stability"?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #30
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Yes. How do you define "a period of stability"?
    o.k.

    and i'm referring to the period after the surge to the slow draw down.. up till we pulled out completely.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  11. #31
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    I agree, people in need, probably mostly good people, we can help, we should help.5
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  13. #32
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    o.k.

    and i'm referring to the period after the surge to the slow draw down.. up till we pulled out completely.
    But there were still hostilities and casualties during that time, only slowed by our increased presence. So what stability, other than our occupation, are you talking about?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #33
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    But there were still hostilities and casualties during that time, only slowed by our increased presence. So what stability, other than our occupation, are you talking about?
    So, Isreal isn't stable because it gets attacked constantly?
    You seem to be saying that because they were attacked it wasn't stable... I disagree.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  15. #34
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So, Isreal isn't stable because it gets attacked constantly?
    You seem to be saying that because they were attacked it wasn't stable... I disagree.
    Does Israel have an outside force occupying it?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #35
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Does Israel have an outside force occupying it?
    No, so are you suggesting that if we have troops stationed in a country it is thus not a "stable" country?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  17. #36
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    If said country immediately falls apart upon our departure, yes.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #37
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    If said country immediately falls apart upon our departure, yes.
    I'm sorry.... that's .......

    ...look..

    If the military is being used as a stabilizing force.. that is fine. That HAS TO BE THE CASE in all nation building efforts.
    If the nation collapses because you take the cast off, it means that the cast had not yet finished doing it's job, not that it wasn't stable while the cast was on. (Cast as in broken leg).

    The cast was working, the nation was stable. We removed it before it was ready (obviously) because we got impatient and decided to throw away the 10+ year investment we had already made.That is Obama's hand at work..
    And hey I'm fine with it. Let the M.E. burn themselves to the ground for all I care. Just don't act like it wasn't because of BO's decisions and leadership(or lack there of) I wont even call it "bad".
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  19. #38
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm sorry.... that's .......

    ...look..

    If the military is being used as a stabilizing force.. that is fine. That HAS TO BE THE CASE in all nation building efforts.
    If the nation collapses because you take the cast off, it means that the cast had not yet finished doing it's job, not that it wasn't stable while the cast was on. (Cast as in broken leg).

    The cast was working, the nation was stable. We removed it before it was ready (obviously) because we got impatient and decided to throw away the 10+ year investment we had already made.That is Obama's hand at work..
    And hey I'm fine with it. Let the M.E. burn themselves to the ground for all I care. Just don't act like it wasn't because of BO's decisions and leadership(or lack there of) I wont even call it "bad".
    I don't remember any discussion of nation building in the ME...except for GW Bush who specifically ran on a campaign of non-nation building from a party whose member called Clinton a scumbag on the congressional floor for involving us in the Balkans.

    If you don't care if the ME burns then why was Obama's decision a bad one? It's what he ran on and promised and back to my original point, America didn't have the stomach for it. So the original bad decision was the cause. Barry's decision was the correct solution to a terrible situation.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #39
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I do not know the best way to do it, but a sponsor system, such as what we used during WWII, may be the best solution. Glad to see you are on board.

    P.S.
    The "progressives" here must be crapping themselves thinking the world just turned upside down? Don't us conservatives hate immigrants??? lol.
    Well, I can say on the Christian end of the right wingers, that sometimes it appears progressives can have trouble even registering what a Christian is. Of course all of us, ideally, want to harbor refugees.

    Here's the rub though, guys: this is merely the more publicized conflict right now. There are wars going on all over the globe and smaller groups using terror tactics in even more places.

    Have you seen that little boy drowned on the beach? How much more of that is happening beyond our short attention span? Are you guys aware of the terror groups in the southern Phillipines or Peru? Unless you were watching when a portion of the media spotlighted it for just a little while months ago, you probably only know about it if you really try to follow things or you happen to have Filipino or Peruvian family members or friends.

    I think most folks here are aware enough of how influential the United States is, just how many major countries (countries that in a sense still have nascent empires) are depending on the US dollar. We've been fighting internally over whether or not we are the police force of the world, but wake up guys. The United States is the police force of the world.

    Whatever your opinion is, and I do sympathize and understand the idea that we shouldn't be the police, the fact is that we really are the police. When the U.N. started and approved the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, America became the primary arm behind trying to apply the declaration. We can all debate until we're blue in the face about whether or not we were really following the declaration, really getting involved in this or that in good conscience, but we did get involved. Probably a good more times than the majority of people are aware of, with many countries not recognized by the U.N. and gads and gads of entanglements that never made the news.

    So what remains? Whether or not this generation likes it we are responsible. We got involved way, way too many times to say that we aren't. So... there are enormous things at stake and many, many innocent people paying the cost. Why these refugees and not the innumerable others we share responsibility for? Do they get the "privilege" of living because they happen to be on the news?

    ---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's good to see you're taking responsibility, after all it was your nonsensical wars in the region that destabilized it and led to this mess.
    Could you quite hemming and hawing and maybe add some input about this situation that we are currently responsible for? For the sake of the UOD (universe of discourse) I would grant that we did everything wrong, it's all the conservatives fault and Bush II's fault, and we're as a collective group very smelly indeed. Now let's flash forward to the present. Are you going to score points off of this? Does it satisfy you just to play the blame game, or is your conscience at least also affected by this refugee crisis?

    Color me crazy, but I think that's what is important here, and that's what the thread is about. Seriously, you've derailed the whole second page so far because you couldn't even bother to answer the OP relevant portion of post #20 at the end of page 1. Do you just get to make the executive decision every time you enter a thread what the thread is going to be about?
    Last edited by Lukecash12; September 23rd, 2015 at 03:50 PM.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
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  22. #40
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    Are you going to score points off of this? Does it satisfy you just to play the blame game, or is your conscience at least also affected by this refugee crisis?

    Color me crazy, but I think that's what is important here, and that's what the thread is about. Seriously, you've derailed the whole second page so far because you couldn't even bother to answer the OP relevant portion of post #20 at the end of page 1. Do you just get to make the executive decision every time you enter a thread what the thread is going to be about?
    I haven't seen any red typing so I'll be blunt in pointing out that how we got into this mess is incredibly important. You might call that and "executive decision", I call it exploring the issue.

    Let's go further and look at the charges that climate change is a factor here: http://time.com/4024210/climate-change-migrants/

    Am I willing to let conservatives on the winning side? yes, welcome. Will I poke them with a stick to get them to take responsibility? yes, I admitted my complicity in the affair I'll be damned if I let anyone slide by with the "but there were rape rooms" defense ever.

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