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  1. #1
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    Refugees in the U.S.

    Europe is begging the U.S. to help alleviate the refugee problem due to the crisis in Syria. I think the U.S. has a more imperative to step up. I support Obama's order to allow 10,000 refugees into the U.S. this year. In fact, I'd call for more. Do we need to verify identities and take precautions that we are not creating a terrorist yellow brick road? Of course. Here is where I am coming from. In the 1930's, America watched millions of Jews die at the hands of Nazis. The U.S. was divided. Rockefeller and the isolationists wanted to keep the Jewish immigrants out. FDR finally allowed some refugees to come here. There were rules. Jewish families generally had a to have a sponsor here in the U.S. that could vouch for them. How many Jews died because they had no place to go? It is absolutely unthinkable that we would stand by again and watch it happen all over again.

    Now, I known there are several counter-arguments to allowing refugees to enter here from Syria.

    1. The U.S. has its own problems. We cannot take in several hundred thousand poor and needing refugees from a foreign country.
    My Response: This is generally been Trump's response. I have heard it from others too. Yes, there will be costs associated with taking in refugees. These costs can be mitigated via sponsorship plans, reductions in immigration visas from other countries, and by enhancing border security to reduce illegal immigration flow.

    2. We could be letting in potential terrorists.
    My Response: Yup. We certainly could. However, with proper security protocols in place, this is a minute threat. Certainly, it is a threat which can be mitigated against. However, I have heard people talk about freedom and liberty so, I have to wonder, is this hallow speak? Those who wish to comprise liberty for security deserve neither. Our policies must not be based on fear. Many of these Syrian refugees are middle class folk who have skills and just want to be safe.

    3. We have too many immigrants here now and this would upset our culture and traditions.
    My Response: A few hundred thousand, or even a million, refugees would not make a dent in our culture/traditions. First of all, we can make learning English mandatory for all refugees, as well as, U.S. history classes. We can place conditions on entrance such that refugees will be welcomed into the American fabric and, hopefully, will soon consider themselves Americans like nearly all the other immigrant populations before them.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    I say, take the refugees into the U.S. Like we took in the Jewish children who were sent by their parents to families that would accept them.

    In other words, a sponsor family system. No limit to the number of people, but they must live with or be cared for by a specific U.S. family. I think we could easily accept 2million families in this way.
    Further, create a specific path to citizen ship, on that the foster or sponsor family could be involved in.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  5. #3
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I say, take the refugees into the U.S. Like we took in the Jewish children who were sent by their parents to families that would accept them.

    In other words, a sponsor family system. No limit to the number of people, but they must live with or be cared for by a specific U.S. family. I think we could easily accept 2million families in this way.
    Further, create a specific path to citizen ship, on that the foster or sponsor family could be involved in.
    I do not know the best way to do it, but a sponsor system, such as what we used during WWII, may be the best solution. Glad to see you are on board.

    P.S.
    The "progressives" here must be crapping themselves thinking the world just turned upside down? Don't us conservatives hate immigrants??? lol.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    P.S.
    The "progressives" here must be crapping themselves thinking the world just turned upside down? Don't us conservatives hate immigrants??? lol.
    It's good to see you're taking responsibility, after all it was your nonsensical wars in the region that destabilized it and led to this mess.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #5
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's good to see you're taking responsibility, after all it was your nonsensical wars in the region that destabilized it and led to this mess.
    MY nonsensical wars? Please support or withdraw this statement. To the best of my recollection, my support of the Iraqi war was tepid, at best. In fact, please find me the post where you have come to the conclusion that I was ever a fan of Bush II or the Iraq war.

    Blaming Bush and absolving Obama for the current situation is pretty absurd, by the way.

    Oh, and thanks for offering a positive contribution to the thread....
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  9. #6
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    "us conservatives" the decision to destabilize the area on faulty premises and jury rigged information was done by elected officials from your camp...own it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #7
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "us conservatives" the decision to destabilize the area on faulty premises and jury rigged information was done by elected officials from your camp...own it.
    Again, please support that I actually supported the Iraq war. I am not going to own something which isn't mine. Not to belabor the point, "Blaming Bush and absolving Obama for the current situation is pretty absurd, by the way."
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  11. #8
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Again, please support that I actually supported the Iraq war. I am not going to own something which isn't mine. Not to belabor the point, "Blaming Bush and absolving Obama for the current situation is pretty absurd, by the way."
    You are of no consequence, the conservative camp is who I criticized of which you're a part..."us conservatives". Take it as personally as you like, heck, I supported the invasion of Iraq but I realize now what a colossal blunder it was and, of course, who is responsible for that blunder.

    We were lured in to acting irrationally (and, I'd argue, taken advantage of by our leaders) which took its toll in blood and treasure. Enough so that we are unwilling to engage anywhere else in the region. OBL's plan was devious, well thought out, and worked perfectly. A brilliant strategy that boxed us in and has allowed the current situation to happen.

    That those in the middle east were playing chess while our conservative leadership were playing checkers is plainly obvious.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #9
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Take it as personally as you like, heck, I supported the invasion of Iraq but I realize now what a colossal blunder it was and, of course, who is responsible for that blunder.
    I'm not convinced that the actual invasion was a blunder, certainly how things were handled after the region was stabilized. The only thing that would make me think the invasion was a total blunder, is if I were to believe that the people over there are ungovernable by an elected democracy... and part of me does think that.

    I think you have a tenancy to ignore some of the decisions made along the way and pin them all on the original decision to invade. I disagree with that. It is possible for the invasion to be not the best idea, or way to go about things, and for decisions after the invasion was over and a success to be responsible for the current situation. Most obviously the decission to pull out before the new country was able to stand on it's own against common enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    We were lured in to acting irrationally (and, I'd argue, taken advantage of by our leaders) which took its toll in blood and treasure. Enough so that we are unwilling to engage anywhere else in the region. OBL's plan was devious, well thought out, and worked perfectly. A brilliant strategy that boxed us in and has allowed the current situation to happen.
    I think you give OBL too much credit.
    First of all, our actions were not irrational, given the assumptions it was based on, it was perfectly rational. Even still, not all of those assumptions turned out to be wrong, and it is arguable that none of them were wrong.


    Finally, this conflict was inevitable regardless of our past actions. These people we are fighting want to take over their area, and the international community (except the U.S.) are incapable of addressing it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. #10
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    I think you give OBL too much credit.
    First of all, our actions were not irrational, given the assumptions it was based on, it was perfectly rational. Even still, not all of those assumptions turned out to be wrong, and it is arguable that none of them were wrong.
    If they were then they needn't have been obfuscations or downright lies.

    ---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm not convinced that the actual invasion was a blunder, certainly how things were handled after the region was stabilized. The only thing that would make me think the invasion was a total blunder, is if I were to believe that the people over there are ungovernable by an elected democracy... and part of me does think that.

    I think you have a tenancy to ignore some of the decisions made along the way and pin them all on the original decision to invade. I disagree with that. It is possible for the invasion to be not the best idea, or way to go about things, and for decisions after the invasion was over and a success to be responsible for the current situation. Most obviously the decission to pull out before the new country was able to stand on it's own against common enemies.
    That was never going to happen as its enemies are internal. As soon as the army was disbanded there was trouble.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #11
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    2. We could be letting in potential terrorists.
    My Response: Yup. We certainly could. However, with proper security protocols in place, this is a minute threat. Certainly, it is a threat which can be mitigated against. However, I have heard people talk about freedom and liberty so, I have to wonder, is this hallow speak? Those who wish to comprise liberty for security deserve neither. Our policies must not be based on fear. Many of these Syrian refugees are middle class folk who have skills and just want to be safe.
    I was thinking about this point some more, and while it is a concern that we should do our best to address, as long as we are a generally open society with armed citizens there is going to be an inherent level of risk of terrorists entering.
    I'm not sure how much higher a risk these immigrants/refugees would be. Certainly to the overall issue of terrorist entering the country, they would at worst be a convenient entry point, but terrorist could just as easily hop a plane/boat to south america, and walk across our generally open boarder.

    I simply don't know how to weigh that risk accurately,
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  15. #12
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You are of no consequence, the conservative camp is who I criticized of which you're a part..."us conservatives". Take it as personally as you like, heck, I supported the invasion of Iraq but I realize now what a colossal blunder it was and, of course, who is responsible for that blunder.

    We were lured in to acting irrationally (and, I'd argue, taken advantage of by our leaders) which took its toll in blood and treasure. Enough so that we are unwilling to engage anywhere else in the region. OBL's plan was devious, well thought out, and worked perfectly. A brilliant strategy that boxed us in and has allowed the current situation to happen.

    That those in the middle east were playing chess while our conservative leadership were playing checkers is plainly obvious.
    If I am part the Conservative camp and didn't support the Iraq war, then it is clear that there is no single conservative viewpoint here. In other words, one needn't be a supporter of the Iraq war to be a conservative. Since we can point to many liberals who supported the war, it means supporting the war did not mean you are conservative. Your argument fails the logic test.

    Finally, you keep making the tired argument that the situation in the ME was tied to conservative leadership, ignoring my rebuttal. The situation in the ME predated Bush. OBL's plans were laid out while Clinton was in office. American political leaders from both sides of the aisle have not been able to adequately figure out the ME puzzle. Obama has done nothing to change this truism.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  17. #13
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If I am part the Conservative camp and didn't support the Iraq war, then it is clear that there is no single conservative viewpoint here. In other words, one needn't be a supporter of the Iraq war to be a conservative. Since we can point to many liberals who supported the war, it means supporting the war did not mean you are conservative. Your argument fails the logic test.
    I laid out no such argument.

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Finally, you keep making the tired argument that the situation in the ME was tied to conservative leadership, ignoring my rebuttal. The situation in the ME predated Bush. OBL's plans were laid out while Clinton was in office. American political leaders from both sides of the aisle have not been able to adequately figure out the ME puzzle. Obama has done nothing to change this truism.
    From the OP: "the refugee problem due to the crisis in Syria." The ME was stable when GW took office. Maybe not in good shape, but stable, as compared to say the Balkans at the time.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The ME was stable when GW took office. Maybe not in good shape, but stable, as compared to say the Balkans at the time.
    Do you value the prior stability of Saddam Hussein ruling Iraq over democratic self-government? And the same in Syria?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you value the prior stability of Saddam Hussein ruling Iraq over democratic self-government? And the same in Syria?
    Oh, much so.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #16
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    From the OP: "the refugee problem due to the crisis in Syria." The ME was stable when GW took office. Maybe not in good shape, but stable, as compared to say the Balkans at the time.
    Huh??? Stable? Again, OBL was planning 9/11 while Clinton was in office. How stable was it? Did you forget the Arab Spring? Assad gassing is people? Again, attributing instability or crisis in that region to a single President (ANY single President) is ridiculous. And so as to attempt to return this thread to its proper course, do you support the U.S. taking in refugees from Syria? Are you satisfied with the 10,000 number suggested by Obama?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  22. #17
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Huh??? Stable? Again, OBL was planning 9/11 while Clinton was in office. How stable was it?
    Moreso than now, what did Iraq and Syria have to do with 911?

    ---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And so as to attempt to return this thread to its proper course, do you support the U.S. taking in refugees from Syria? Are you satisfied with the 10,000 number suggested by Obama?
    Of course, the most of the refugees are in the middle eastern countries.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Oh, much so.
    So Saddam's and gassing of Kurds, murders and disappearances of citizens by his police forces and general lack of freedom don't bother you. Same with the decades-long repression and atrocities by the Assads in Syria. Interesting. Liberals used to lambaste conservatives who desired stability in the Middle East, claiming that preservation of the status quo was to keep oil flowing and condemned the people of the Middle East to life under despots.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  25. #19
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So Saddam's and gassing of Kurds, murders and disappearances of citizens by his police forces and general lack of freedom don't bother you. Same with the decades-long repression and atrocities by the Assads in Syria.
    Of course it did. Is that why we invaded? If it was it was way down on the list after WMDs and involvement in 9/11.

    ---------- Post added at 01:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Interesting. Liberals used to lambaste conservatives who desired stability in the Middle East, claiming that preservation of the status quo was to keep oil flowing and condemned the people of the Middle East to life under despots.
    If by "preservation of the status quo" you mean having illegal shady deals with them like Iran-Contra, then yes.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  26. #20
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    Re: Refugees in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Moreso than now, what did Iraq and Syria have to do with 911?
    I am pointing out that stability has not been a staple in that part of the world. Did Bush make mistakes? Damn straight. So did Clinton and Obama is making plenty as well. And before Clinton, that place has been a mess for 2000 years. Have some Presidents made that region worse? Sure. Bush and Obama have both been disasters. If you are going to sit here with a straight face and try to claim the ME is more stable now then before Obama, though.... wow!!! When Bush left office, Iraq was relatively stable. Syria was still firmly in Assad's control. Al Queda was devolving into a non-factor. ISIS was a small band of asshats hardly on anyone's map. Hezbollah had been temporarily set back by the Israelis. In other words, the ME was a **** hole, but it was at normal **** levels for that region.

    Then along comes Obama..... The Arab Spring left the region in tatters as far as leadership goes. Syria is now in the midst of a civil war and the J.V. team (Obama's words) has made it to the summer pro-league. Russia is rolling into help Assad.. the same Assad who Obama promised to get rid of if he used chemical weapons. Kerry is now floating the idea of helping the Russians fend off the rebels and save Assad's ass. Iran's reach has grown immensely. Why is Russia coming into Syria? Because Iran's general asked Putin for help and Putin sees this as a way of extending Russia's influence deeper in the region. Not all of this is Obama's fault. Let's not kid ourselves. However, suggesting that Obama has made the region more stable is not only laughable, it is downright ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Of course, the most of the refugees are in the middle eastern countries.
    Does this mean you support allowing them into the U.S.? Do you think Obama is setting the number at the right level or should he let even more refugees come here? I think we pretty much are on the same side here. I think Obama made the right call. Could he make the number bigger? Perhaps. However, in general, I am giving him credit for doing the right thing.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
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