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  1. #1
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    Restrooms and Gender

    Liberals, help me understand something.

    What harm is done to supposed transgender people by laws requiring everyone to used public restrooms according to their birth gender?

    Exactly how are their civil rights being violated?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Sure, been reading on both sides of the isle on this so I think I can give you the breakdown. Lets start with the general harms, we can get to civil rights after, that's more a legal question.

    #1. Trans people are often victims of harassment, usually from men. A man who's dressed like a woman, may well look absolutely like a woman goes into a men's restroom. If they realize she is tran, she may be the victim of violence due to bigotry. If they think she is a woman they may think she is looking for sex (as they might if a woman came into the mens room) and harras her. Basically, all the same fears a woman might have being forced to use a mens restroom.

    #2. Self identity. A man trans to a woman or vice versa in all ways thinks of themselves as a woman. Forcing someone to use the opposite sex bathoom is going to be taken pretty harshly. If I followed you about and forced you to go into the womens bathroom you would both be really annoyed and greatly inconvinienced would you not? I keep saying, you are a woman, get your ass in there. It's not if you have a **** or not, its who do you think you are in sociaty, do I get to tell you who you are or do you? Trans people want to make the choice for themselves.

    #3. Embarasment. Lets say you are a woman who transitioned into being a man. You have a beard, big muscles, you wear a T-shirt and Jeans. Because you had a vagina at one point in life, you are now forced to go into the womens bathroom. Women will be freaked out, you will be embarased having to explain youself to the authorities or the other users of the bathroom etc. Its also embarasing and frigtening for the women in the bathroom.

    OK, I think that covers the basics pretty well. Lets talk civil rights.

    THere is no civil right to use a toilet or to have toilets provided for you and so on. There are laws requiring publich places to provide toilets as public accomidation but it's not based on civil rights. We do have the equal protection clause which more or less states that laws have to be applied equally to all. You could argue that without some safe and reasonable environment for these folks to use the toilet in as much comfort as anyone else, we are not applying the laws requiring bathroom accomidations equally. We also have an implied right to privacy (as determined in numerous cases by SCOTUS). This right to privacy protects people from unreasonable govenrment intrusion. One could argue that demanding to see your genitals so we can determine which bathroom you belong in is an unreasonable invasion of privacy by the state.

    I think that's the full run down on the core arguments.

    Personally, if anyone is seeing your genetalia in a public bathroom I think you are doing it wrong. I also don't give a rat's ass if there are men or women in the bathroom when I'm peeing or pooping or whatever, just doesn't matter to me and I don't really understand why anyone else much cares either. Safety I can understand, I can even understand embarasement thoug I think its kind of dumb, but on both accounts I think it makes more sense to allow trans folks in the bathroom of their choice, likely safer for all and less embarasing for everyone. It's really a pretty small issue but its one where there is a lot of misunderstanding and it's part of a wider cultural conflict so it's getting a lot of attention.
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Weird that I have to make a post before being able to introduce myself in the Member's Introduction's site but I guess this has to be it. Err, hi!

    This seems like an interesting thread since it is so topical and important to right-wingers these days (presumably because they have lost the hate the gays war, it's now time to attack the transgendered!). To answer your question OP:

    Liberals?
    Why is this directed at liberals only? What about progressives or conservatives? Why do their views not count? Trump, the Republican front-runner, seems to have no problems with people going to the restroom they identify with. Is this an anti-liberal site?

    What harm is done to supposed transgender people by laws requiring everyone to used public restrooms according to their birth gender?
    The harm is likely that a post-op transgender man, whose birth gender is female, would likely not be allowed in a female public restroom! The problem is that most people will looking at their surface gender and not their birth gender to determine whether they belong or not. So this law will prevent legitimate females from accessing their physical gender's restroom and it be more problematic to go to their birth gender restroom. No one will be looking at someone's private parts nor testing their genetics to determine which bathroom they should go into.

    Violation of civil rights
    Hmm. this seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur - do we make any kind of law so long as it doesn't violate a 'civil right'? Or is the suggestion that any law that doesn't violate a civil right OK to pass? In that case, why even stop at restrooms? Why allow transgendered people to wear different clothes, or impersonate a gender that isn't their birth gender?

    Anyway, hello all. I find debates like this interesting where two opposing sides meet! In this case, it seems that the most obvious solution is to have single-person toilets to be used by both genders. Problem solved! You're welcome

  4. #4
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    I don't know if it's a civil rights violation but it's a really stupid policy.

    If a person clearly looks like a man, genitalia and all, then obviously anyone with common sense would want to see this person use the mens' room instead of the woman's room. Would actually want to see this guy walk into the ladies room, especially if your wife and/or daughter was in there? And yet, if that person happened to be born a woman, then by law he would have to use the ladies room.

    So really the issue is when is someone "man" enough for the men's room and "woman" enough for the lady's room - where to draw the line? And I really don't see the need for laws to draw the line and tell us what to do. People can figure this out for themselves and typically a person is going to want to use the restroom that will cause the least amount of fuss if he/she decides to use it and likewise the other people who are in the restroom will want to see whatever will cause them the least amount of stress. In other words, if one's appearance looks more female than male (regardless of what's on the birth certificate or in one's pants), people are generally going to want that person to use the women's room and that person will want to use the women's room.

    And there is no need for the law to get involved unless there is a legitimate safety concern. And if anything, the birth certificate law decreases safety for if born-woman becomes a physical-man and has to use the lady's room by law, he might get physically attacked by someone who feels he's a threat to the women in the room.

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  6. #5
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Miccan: I think you cut to the chase of what makes the most sense all around. Especially when it comes to bathrooms.

    I think the issue tends to come into play when someone is iffy on the gender appearance, early in transition or just not good at passing. They want to go where they identify, and probably don't arn't going to blend in either place. They would like some permission to be where they want to be and not get thrown out for doing what they have to do. On the other side the concern is preditory types taking advantage of such permission to be peeping toms or worse. I find it an interesting case because there isn't a totally functional solution. And when there isn't, common sense and not law are probably the way to go. Generally a sex preditor is pretty easy to seperate from a trans person just looking to use the lou.

    Locker rooms are perhaps a tricky issue since people actually do get naked there and many folks are simply embarased and worried by things they don't understand.
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    On the other side the concern is preditory types taking advantage of such permission to be peeping toms or worse. I find it an interesting case because there isn't a totally functional solution.
    There will be sexual predators regardless of what laws we do and don't have regarding bathrooms. And the notion that predatory activity will be facilitated by trans-protection laws is not really a valid concern.

    “Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assa...ry?id=38604019

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Locker rooms are perhaps a tricky issue since people actually do get naked there and many folks are simply embarased and worried by things they don't understand.
    I suppose an uncomfortable situation can arise if someone who is not entirely one certain gender is present. But I don't see how making a law is going to help.

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  9. #7
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Seems to me that a public restroom is about the worst possible place to sexually molest someone. They have no locks on the doors (unless they're single-user restrooms like many gas stations have) so anyone can walk in and see what's going on. Usually those who are molesting people want a bit of privacy, I assume. And if they're single-user restrooms, then whoever goes in first tends to lock the door so no one else can enter.

  10. #8
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    There will be sexual predators regardless of what laws we do and don't have regarding bathrooms. And the notion that predatory activity will be facilitated by trans-protection laws is not really a valid concern.

    “Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assa...ry?id=38604019
    Good evidence on the point. I have read articles about folks trying to use these laws to justify lewd behavior. You can find them on conservative sites and they seem legit. Though of course that doesn't mean they wouldn't do it anyway, only that they now have an additional excuse to try and make, likely without success.

    Still, even if its wrong, I can understand and sympathise with the concern. Many fears are not all that rational of course. Still fear should not win out in rule of law!

    I suppose an uncomfortable situation can arise if someone who is not entirely one certain gender is present. But I don't see how making a law is going to help.
    We agree. I could see a very seripticious snoop/exebitionist using the law to their advantage. Most perverts are not especially good at being subtle though, I think part of their kick is that their victims know what is happening so they get that sense of power.
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  11. #9
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Personally, if anyone is seeing your genetalia in a public bathroom I think you are doing it wrong
    you do realize that men's restrooms commonly have urinal troughs to accommodate many people. though it is generally frowned upon to cross streams.
    So... your point here seems to be obviously false.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    #1. Trans people are often victims of harassment, usually from men. A man who's dressed like a woman, may well look absolutely like a woman goes into a men's restroom. If they realize she is tran, she may be the victim of violence due to bigotry. If they think she is a woman they may think she is looking for sex (as they might if a woman came into the mens room) and harras her. Basically, all the same fears a woman might have being forced to use a mens restroom.
    There is a lot of "may" speculation going on here, is any of it specific to bathrooms? I don't think so, and certainly not to level that would trump the possibility of facilitating the .0001% of men who desire to expose their penis to underage women in the girls room. or to the embarrassment and probable sexual harassment of a penis in the girls bathroom even of a transitioning man/girl ... thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    #3. Embarasment. Lets say you are a woman who transitioned into being a man. You have a beard, big muscles, you wear a T-shirt and Jeans. Because you had a vagina at one point in life, you are now forced to go into the womens bathroom. Women will be freaked out, you will be embarased having to explain youself to the authorities or the other users of the bathroom etc. Its also embarasing and frigtening for the women in the bathroom.
    I'm confused.. when is "embarrassment" ever been a valid legal principle for laws? Do we have any other law based on this?
    Should we pass a law in regards to .0000000000001% of the population so that they are not embarrassed? How is this not tyranny of the minority?
    What about me? I'm embarrassed to be in the same bathroom as a fake penis person. Can I get my own law? Are they also violating my sensibilities enough? Or maybe I don't count and my feelings don't matter?


    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Liberals?
    Why is this directed at liberals only? What about progressives or conservatives? Why do their views not count? Trump, the Republican front-runner, seems to have no problems with people going to the restroom they identify with. Is this an anti-liberal site?
    Not an anti-liberal site, though we have informed conservatives that may appear to be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    it seems that the most obvious solution is to have single-person toilets to be used by both genders. Problem solved! You're welcome
    I agree that, that is the wisest solution, but don't think it is the job of the state to mandate it. Is there a restaurant or place of business that you don't like the bathroom arrangement? Then don't go.
    My suggestion, if you want a clean bathroom go to a truck stop or casino.. those places are generally immaculate.


    -------------------
    My solution
    1) Change bathroom markings from "girls/Boys" to "Penis/vagina". Apparently those terms are not equivalents anymore.
    2) Create individual bathrooms, basically "family" bathrooms, and do away with the gender, or plumbing distinction.


    Personal note, I think it is absolutely retarded that such a small minority is being allowed to drive the lives of the vast, vast majority. These people are mentally ill and we are enabling them. The answer of course is always a "law", to force compliance in order to facilitate the "feelings" of one over another. After all, my feelings don't count as much as the mentally ill.
    On a more personal note.

    After an actual attempt of kidnapping of my daughter, I am much more likely to simply beat the mans ass who comes out of the same bathroom as my daughter, and ask questions later.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not an anti-liberal site, though we have informed conservatives that may appear to be so.
    That's good to know - on both counts!


    I agree that, that is the wisest solution, but don't think it is the job of the state to mandate it. Is there a restaurant or place of business that you don't like the bathroom arrangement? Then don't go.
    My suggestion, if you want a clean bathroom go to a truck stop or casino.. those places are generally immaculate.
    I think it is the job of the state to mandate fairness and to equalize how business is done. This is no different from mandating accessible entrances and such. Or banning smoking. Or any number of things then ensures the lives of the disabled or 'different' aren't unfairly made more difficult.


    My solution
    1) Change bathroom markings from "girls/Boys" to "Penis/vagina". Apparently those terms are not equivalents anymore.
    That won't work! Post-operative people would still have the wrong parts!

    2) Create individual bathrooms, basically "family" bathrooms, and do away with the gender, or plumbing distinction.
    My idea first :-) But there should still be urinals in them.

    Personal note, I think it is absolutely retarded that such a small minority is being allowed to drive the lives of the vast, vast majority. These people are mentally ill and we are enabling them. The answer of course is always a "law", to force compliance in order to facilitate the "feelings" of one over another. After all, my feelings don't count as much as the mentally ill.
    It may well be a mental illness but it's one that is treated best by having the person adopt their internal gender, up to and including operations and especially with society accepting them for the gender they need to live with. I'm not sure whether calling them 'feelings' accurately describes the deep wrongness that is felt by the transgendered. I'm also not sure if your feelings about why they shouldn't have access to the restrooms appropriate to them really has any bearing on the matter of making their lives a bit better.

    On a more personal note.
    After an actual attempt of kidnapping of my daughter, I am much more likely to simply beat the mans ass who comes out of the same bathroom as my daughter, and ask questions later.
    That is terrible and I would do the same. However, I really don't think that allowing "men" in a bathroom grants them additional rights to attack or molest children! I don't buy the argument that a man would dress up as a woman in order to harass them.

    And you could be just as worried about gay men doing the same to boys! Or gay women to girls. Surely, you're not suggesting that we also have bathrooms for straight men/women and gay men/women to avoid the situation you are alluding to!
    Last edited by SadElephant; May 1st, 2016 at 09:39 AM.

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  14. #11
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    That won't work! Post-operative people would still have the wrong parts!
    Really? I thought that was the point of the operation, to give them a V or a P.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    My idea first :-) But there should still be urinals in them.
    My "plumbing" distinction was more intended to be a reference to the human body.
    However if we want to debate the actual plumbing.. maybe we should go with squaty-potties like china.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    It may well be a mental illness but it's one that is treated best by having the person adopt their internal gender, up to and including operations and especially with society accepting them for the gender they need to live with.
    Because that is what we do with every other mental illness? I don't think so. That is called enabling.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    I'm not sure whether calling them 'feelings' accurately describes the deep wrongness that is felt by the transgendered. I'm also not sure if your feelings about why they shouldn't have access to the restrooms appropriate to them really has any bearing on the matter of making their lives a bit better.
    So what should we call the deep wrongness I feel? Why is it not equally important?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    That is terrible and I would do the same. However, I really don't think that allowing "men" in a bathroom grants them additional rights to attack or molest children! I don't buy the argument that a man would dress up as a woman in order to harass them.
    Not simply "a restroom" but a restroom generally reserved and used for women. If granting men access to women bathrooms would not pose a legit issue, then we probably would have never invented the distinction to begin with. So, I am appealing to such a common sense problem/issue that IMO it is pretty naive to reject.
    I mean this whole issue kinda revolves around why we have separate bathrooms to begin with. One of those I would forward is the basic decency not to expose young girls to adult male genitalia(Formally known as "the penis")
    If that is not the case, then we should abolish all separate bathrooms(for the same reasoning we no longer have white and black water fountains), and have "co-ed" bathrooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    And you could be just as worried about gay men doing the same to boys! Or gay women to girls. Surely, you're not suggesting that we also have bathrooms for straight men/women and gay men/women to avoid the situation you are alluding to!
    Actually.. I am. That is why my young boys don't go to the restroom unattended. In the case of my daughter I am actually barred from going into their restrooms.

    Or do you think I should be allowed in?
    What basis do you think we should have separate bathrooms at all? I ask this very seriously, because I think this is the heart of the issue. As our society tries to blur lines, I wonder if your reasoning could be consistent in barring me (a strait male) access to the woman's bathroom whenever I wish.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  15. #12
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    you do realize that men's restrooms commonly have urinal troughs to accommodate many people. though it is generally frowned upon to cross streams.
    So... your point here seems to be obviously false.
    Etiquite is eys forward and up at the urinal, I've honelstly never seena penis in a mens bathroom other than my own.

    There is a lot of "may" speculation going on here, is any of it specific to bathrooms? I don't think so, and certainly not to level that would trump the possibility of facilitating the .0001% of men who desire to expose their penis to underage women in the girls room. or to the embarrassment and probable sexual harassment of a penis in the girls bathroom even of a transitioning man/girl ... thing.
    So you think a person who looks almost entirely like a woman in a mens bathroom is not going to suffer any harrassment in a lifetime of using said bathrooms? I think that is pretty neive.

    I'm confused.. when is "embarrassment" ever been a valid legal principle for laws? Do we have any other law based on this?
    Nearly all of our nudity laws are based on embarasment. People are embarased by other naked people so they want them covered up to avoid it. It is why we like private bathrooms i the first place, they hide activities we find embarasing and unsightly. Embarrassment is a powerful human emotion and a good bit of our social customs revolve around the idea. As to a matter of law, most of the lawmaking is on the side of trying to exclude people from bathrooms they want to use, not the other way around.

    Should we pass a law in regards to .0000000000001% of the population so that they are not embarrassed? How is this not tyranny of the minority?
    You didn't really read my post did you. It is to protect the majority's embarasement. A trans man using the womens bathroom is going to embaras everyone involved and that is what these foolish regulations propose to do.

    What about me? I'm embarrassed to be in the same bathroom as a fake penis person. Can I get my own law? Are they also violating my sensibilities enough? Or maybe I don't count and my feelings don't matter?
    Are you really? If a man, who you don't actually know is a woman is in a bathroom with you, how is it you feel embarased? How do you know their penis is fake, are you checking out peoples penises in the bathroom when you are in there?

    Personal note, I think it is absolutely retarded that such a small minority is being allowed to drive the lives of the vast, vast majority.
    No, the majority are not forced into anything, people just want to take a **** where they choose to, not where some anointed majority things they aught to. This is the same kind of argument for segragation in the south, why should a minority of blacks dictate to whites how to live?

    These people are mentally ill and we are enabling them.
    If you are running around checking on peoples dicks in the bathroom it is you that has a mental illness. These folks are no danger to themselves or to anyone else.

    The answer of course is always a "law", to force compliance in order to facilitate the "feelings" of one over another. After all, my feelings don't count as much as the mentally ill.
    On a more personal note.
    Yet it is those who are antagonistic to trans gendered people pushing for laws to force them to use one bathroom or another.

    After an actual attempt of kidnapping of my daughter, I am much more likely to simply beat the mans ass who comes out of the same bathroom as my daughter, and ask questions later.
    Then you can go to jail for assault.
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My solution
    1) Change bathroom markings from "girls/Boys" to "Penis/vagina". Apparently those terms are not equivalents anymore.
    2) Create individual bathrooms, basically "family" bathrooms, and do away with the gender, or plumbing distinction.
    I don't think we need a solution because there's not really a problem, at least a problem big enough to warrant using legislation to fix. And while "penis/vagina" is better than the birth certificate distinction, it's still inferior to just letting people decide for themselves which bathroom fits them best. If a very masculine-looking male-identifying person is going to use a bathroom, I would want him using the men's room regardless of what's in this pants and likewise that person will almost certainly want to use the men's room instead of the ladies room. Social norms will put the right person in the right bathroom better than gender-identifying legislation will.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Personal note, I think it is absolutely retarded that such a small minority is being allowed to drive the lives of the vast, vast majority.
    I don't agree that they are driving the lives of a vast majority. For example, I don't think my life is being "driven" by transgendered people but then your complaint is pretty vague. But regardless, I don't feel put-upon in any way.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    These people are mentally ill and we are enabling them.
    They are not uniformly mentally ill.

    "This Saturday, the American Psychiatric Association board of trustees approved the latest proposed revisions to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, what will now be known as the DSM-5. This marks a historic milestone for people who are transgender and gender non-conforming, as their identities are no longer classified as a mental disorder."

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/1...ntal-disorder/

    And enabling typically means that we are condoning negative behavior (typically harmful to self or others). I see no basis to claim that letting a transgendered person use the bathroom he/she best identifies with is harmful to anyone and I think it's typically more harmful to not allow them to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with.

    Again, my solution is the solution that we've been using all along. Just let people decide for themselves. That's not to say that everything will be perfect all of the time but laws will almost certainly make more problems than they solve.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The answer of course is always a "law", to force compliance in order to facilitate the "feelings" of one over another. After all, my feelings don't count as much as the mentally ill.
    The laws that are being forwarded are generally set to restrict transgendered access to the bathroom of their choice, so the law is putting your feelings not only above their feelings but their safety. If someone who clearly looks like a man is forced to use the ladies room because he has a certain birth certificate or female genitals, he's at greater risk than if he is allowed to use the bathroom he would most likely want to use. Someone might attack him if he goes to the ladies room.

    Don't take my word for it. Take your own word it (below)


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    After an actual attempt of kidnapping of my daughter, I am much more likely to simply beat the mans ass who comes out of the same bathroom as my daughter, and ask questions later.
    There you go. He is at greater risk of being attacked by you if he uses the lady's room instead of the men's room.
    Last edited by mican333; May 1st, 2016 at 06:21 PM.

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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    After an actual attempt of kidnapping of my daughter, I am much more likely to simply beat the mans ass who comes out of the same bathroom as my daughter, and ask questions later.
    Would you inspect his genitals first to make sure it isn't a woman who you've mistaken for a man?

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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Really? I thought that was the point of the operation, to give them a V or a P.
    Right - so a post-op male would have a V. But you're saying that they shouldn't be allowed in the female restrooms! That's what I'm not getting.

    My "plumbing" distinction was more intended to be a reference to the human body.
    However if we want to debate the actual plumbing.. maybe we should go with squaty-potties like china.
    Actually squatting is actually the most efficient way to poop. Also, if men sat for peeing, it would actually be cleaner!

    Because that is what we do with every other mental illness? I don't think so. That is called enabling.
    Enabling them to feel better about themselves and comfortable in their bodies? How is that a bad thing? Is there even a cure for transgender that doesn't involve enabling?

    So what should we call the deep wrongness I feel? Why is it not equally important?
    What is your deep wrongness really about though? Is it properly informed? I just saw Ted Cruz bring up the men with little girls again and realized, what parent would allow any child, never mind a girl, into a restroom alone anyway? you have a girl - did you let her into a woman's restroom alone when she was little?

    Not simply "a restroom" but a restroom generally reserved and used for women. If granting men access to women bathrooms would not pose a legit issue, then we probably would have never invented the distinction to begin with.
    This is a good point but why do you think that the distinction is there to begin with? I suggest that it's more likely to do with social reasons rather than biological. If so, then it's a good argument to suggest that a transgendered male belongs more in the female than the male restroom.

    So, I am appealing to such a common sense problem/issue that IMO it is pretty naive to reject.
    Surely, you'd feel more comfortable with a female looking and behaving person in a female restroom than a male one? I know that's where my current instincts lie.

    I mean this whole issue kinda revolves around why we have separate bathrooms to begin with. One of those I would forward is the basic decency not to expose young girls to adult male genitalia(Formally known as "the penis")
    If that is not the case, then we should abolish all separate bathrooms(for the same reasoning we no longer have white and black water fountains), and have "co-ed" bathrooms.
    So when you took your little girl out on your own and she needed a restroom, you never took her into a cubicle into the men's toilets? Be honest now, speaking to another father of a little girl?


    Actually.. I am. That is why my young boys don't go to the restroom unattended. In the case of my daughter I am actually barred from going into their restrooms.
    Right - and that is the correct parenting behavior. Do not let children into places alone where they could be potentially harmed.

    Or do you think I should be allowed in?
    What basis do you think we should have separate bathrooms at all? I ask this very seriously, because I think this is the heart of the issue. As our society tries to blur lines, I wonder if your reasoning could be consistent in barring me (a strait male) access to the woman's bathroom whenever I wish.
    I think we have separate bathroom for purely social acceptable reasons. It is about social and sexual privacy. In fact, many women are much more comfortable around gay men in private situations than straight men - precisely because they know they aren't being leered at: so it's clearly about orientation and not at all about physical genitalia.

    There are already laws to protect people from being harmed no matter their age or restroom they go into - and that is the true heart of the issue and the false narrative of claiming harm. We have seen this kind of fear mongering in the centuries where lines have been 'blurred' before - with blacks integrating with whites, women in the work place, gay marriage and now in this we see:

    1. Ted Cruz claiming the federal government has been trying to force schools to let boys shower with little girls: FALSE
    2. Says Donald Trump thinks "a grown man pretending to be a woman (should) be allowed to use the women's restroom.": MOSTLY FALSE

    So I see this as a non-issue:

    1. Mainly because parents generally don't let their young children anywhere near a public restroom alone. There is probably as much or more risk of a male predator hiding there.
    2. Whatever harm could be done on the child is already illegal and have much stiffer penalties than merely being in the "wrong" bathroom.
    3. The simplest solution is just to go to unisex (aka family) restrooms which I think we both agree upon.

  19. #16
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    If you are running around checking on peoples dicks in the bathroom it is you that has a mental illness. These folks are no danger to themselves or to anyone else.
    Ad-hom

    Thanks for playing, when you want to have an adult conversation come on back now.. ya hear?
    I'll be responding to those who can manage a debate without personal attacks from here on.

    -------------------------------------------



    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I don't think we need a solution because there's not really a problem, at least a problem big enough to warrant using legislation to fix. And while "penis/vagina" is better than the birth certificate distinction, it's still inferior to just letting people decide for themselves which bathroom fits them best. If a very masculine-looking male-identifying person is going to use a bathroom, I would want him using the men's room regardless of what's in this pants and likewise that person will almost certainly want to use the men's room instead of the ladies room. Social norms will put the right person in the right bathroom better than gender-identifying legislation will.
    I see this whole discussion as an attempt to change social norms, so I don't think that is a very safe appeal, or at least it is definatly on my side of the argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I don't agree that they are driving the lives of a vast majority. For example, I don't think my life is being "driven" by transgendered people but then your complaint is pretty vague. But regardless, I don't feel put-upon in any way.
    Fair enough.
    I guess, it's more like, why are we discussing this? Because people with penises are trying to access bathrooms for girls. (and to a lesser extent the opposite, though the only stories I have ever heard is some boy trying to get into girls dressing rooms at some high-school.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    They are not uniformly mentally ill.

    "This Saturday, the American Psychiatric Association board of trustees approved the latest proposed revisions to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, what will now be known as the DSM-5. This marks a historic milestone for people who are transgender and gender non-conforming, as their identities are no longer classified as a mental disorder."
    Not convenient at all
    How foolish of me to use last Saturdays definitions.
    But seriously that stinks of political expediency.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, my solution is the solution that we've been using all along. Just let people decide for themselves. That's not to say that everything will be perfect all of the time but laws will almost certainly make more problems than they solve.
    The only objection I have to that is the "let the individual decide" is the same as saying "let everyone go into whatever bathroom they like.
    It is too broad, and a person who "self identifies" as a girl today, can self Identify as a boy tomorrow etc.

    That creates an unsafe environment, and really bucks the "social norms".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The laws that are being forwarded are generally set to restrict transgendered access to the bathroom of their choice, so the law is putting your feelings not only above their feelings but their safety.
    Right, because "social norms" are not "go where you want". It is "girls aka vagina's" use this room and "boys aka penis" use that room.
    They are separate for a reason to begin with, and unless that underlying reason is addressed in the discussion we may as well have out right co-ed bathrooms.
    Are you advocating co-ed bathrooms?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    There you go. He is at greater risk of being attacked by you if he uses the lady's room instead of the men's room.
    Right, because exposing male genitalia to young girls is deserving of such action.
    Also, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a man in a girls bathroom is a threat to young girls.

    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by KING
    Would you inspect his genitals first to make sure it isn't a woman who you've mistaken for a man?
    I get inspected every time.. is that not normal?


    *J*

    ------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Right - so a post-op male would have a V. But you're saying that they shouldn't be allowed in the female restrooms! That's what I'm not getting.
    No, I was laying out a alternate options, not overlapping arguments.

    Again, why do we have separate bathrooms to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Actually squatting is actually the most efficient way to poop. Also, if men sat for peeing, it would actually be cleaner!
    Right.. that's what I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Enabling them to feel better about themselves and comfortable in their bodies? How is that a bad thing? Is there even a cure for transgender that doesn't involve enabling?
    As long as it doesn't include exposing young girls to adult male genitalia.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    What is your deep wrongness really about though? Is it properly informed? I just saw Ted Cruz bring up the men with little girls again and realized, what parent would allow any child, never mind a girl, into a restroom alone anyway? you have a girl - did you let her into a woman's restroom alone when she was little?
    I have 4 girls... and as I pointed out, I'm not allowed in the girls bathroom, so there are instances where I must.
    though I have allowed strange women to watch out for them .. you know after the obligatory cup check.


    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    This is a good point but why do you think that the distinction is there to begin with?
    I believe it is sexual in nature. As in, why do we consider it a sexual crime for an adult male to expose his genitalia to young girls?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    I suggest that it's more likely to do with social reasons rather than biological. If so, then it's a good argument to suggest that a transgendered male belongs more in the female than the male restroom.
    Well, sex is a social thing I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Surely, you'd feel more comfortable with a female looking and behaving person in a female restroom than a male one? I know that's where my current instincts lie.
    As small as the trans gender population is, those that have actually cut off their penis is even far smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    So when you took your little girl out on your own and she needed a restroom, you never took her into a cubicle into the men's toilets? Be honest now, speaking to another father of a little girl?
    Honestly, no. I generally had the foresight to not be put in that situation.
    However, even if I were it would have to be an EMPTY men's room.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Right - and that is the correct parenting behavior. Do not let children into places alone where they could be potentially harmed.
    Hence laws keeping penises out of girls bathrooms. Have to say, that is my sticking point on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    I think we have separate bathroom for purely social acceptable reasons. It is about social and sexual privacy. In fact, many women are much more comfortable around gay men in private situations than straight men - precisely because they know they aren't being leered at: so it's clearly about orientation and not at all about physical genitalia.
    If only adult women and gay men were involved you may have a point. But trans gender doesn't mean "gay". You can guy with a penis, who thinks he is a woman on the inside and is attracted to woman, in a womans restroom.

    So, I don't think your point is very valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    There are already laws to protect people from being harmed no matter their age or restroom they go into - and that is the true heart of the issue and the false narrative of claiming harm. We have seen this kind of fear mongering in the centuries where lines have been 'blurred' before - with blacks integrating with whites, women in the work place, gay marriage and now in this we see:
    As long as we agree that young girls should be protected by law from being exposed to adult male genitalia (read penis).
    So transgender walks into a girls bathroom.. pulls out his penis in front of/in view my young girl. and goes to jail, as they should.


    Then we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    1. Ted Cruz claiming the federal government has been trying to force schools to let boys shower with little girls: FALSE
    2. Says Donald Trump thinks "a grown man pretending to be a woman (should) be allowed to use the women's restroom.": MOSTLY FALSE
    The idea that a student with a penis would be allowed to go into a room with naked girls is not false. Maybe not a "shower" .. but that is an irrelevant detail.
    and apparently it was a problem for the girls objecting to it, and the fed was involved in pushing it on them.

    http://dailysignal.com/2015/12/21/wh...r-locker-room/


    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    So I see this as a non-issue:

    1. Mainly because parents generally don't let their young children anywhere near a public restroom alone. There is probably as much or more risk of a male predator hiding there.
    That is not the only issue. There is a fundamental issue with adult male genitalia being exposed to young girls.
    allowing penises in a girls bathroom/locker room opens that door and is foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    2. Whatever harm could be done on the child is already illegal and have much stiffer penalties than merely being in the "wrong" bathroom.
    That doesn't make it wise to invite the problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    3. The simplest solution is just to go to unisex (aka family) restrooms which I think we both agree upon.
    On this I agree. Though I don't think it should be a matter of law.


    -----------------------
    To all.

    I object to the idea that a trans gender with a penis has a need to go into a girls bathroom. There are private facilities (Ie stalls) if they wish to sit in a typical mens restroom.
    I object to the idea that a dude in a dress is in greater danger of harm entering a mens restroom. (Maybe this is because I live in an area where people cross dress at many occasions, Mardi-gras being one.. saints winning SB being another.. though much more rare
    Basically, I don't care if a guy has a dress on in the restroom.. I do care if a man is in the girls room. (read penis around children).


    I say this only to highlight areas that I don't accept as obviously true.

    I think the central issue is not being addressed, except by sadelephan. That being taking into account the reason for seperate bathrooms to begin with, as opposed to co-ed bathrooms.
    This is not a "family room" I mean star ship troopers like co-ed. (You may recall their military had co-ed showers/restrooms)
    So think for a moment if your position justifies a co-ed restroom then explain why or why not, and why we should just change to co-ed.

    I hold that the position of "self identify" is basically the co-ed option.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  20. #17

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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, I was laying out a alternate options, not overlapping arguments.

    Again, why do we have separate bathrooms to begin with?
    It doesn't matter why - the fact is that we do and we needn't. If we realize that it is not necessary then we won't do it. We're not at that stage yet so our only current choice is to use self-identification or to have unisex ones.

    As long as it doesn't include exposing young girls to adult male genitalia.
    What does that have to do the matter at hand? A transgendered male would have female bits - that's OK right? And anyway, since when do you really see any genitalia when there are only cubes? You're imagining a very specific scenario it seems.


    I have 4 girls... and as I pointed out, I'm not allowed in the girls bathroom, so there are instances where I must. though I have allowed strange women to watch out for them .. you know after the obligatory cup check.
    Wait, you'd allow a small child alone into the women's? How is that even safe!?

    I believe it is sexual in nature. As in, why do we consider it a sexual crime for an adult male to expose his genitalia to young girls?
    Right so if it's already a crime, why do you need additional laws? There are no additional laws preventing adult males being with young girls in other situations like restaurants, schools, etc. Why do you need an additional law for restrooms?

    Well, sex is a social thing I suppose.
    Right - so you agree that transgendered males belong in a female restroom?


    As small as the trans gender population is, those that have actually cut off their penis is even far smaller.
    OK - so you're not against genetic males, you're just bothered about their physical genitalia; but only if they're exposed to young girls even though most people will use a toilet cube that has a door. So exactly what are you bothered about? There doesn't seem to be a normal scenario where a pre-op transgendered man would even have an opportunity to show his genitalia!

    I don't get your objection any more: it's certainly not about normal perverts - the law already prevents them from exposing genitalia; it's not 99.9999% of the cases when some one uses a toilet since any genital exposure would be behind a closed door. You point out that there are ways to protect children in such a situation, even asking a strange woman to keep an eye on them.

    So you don't really appear to have any thing to object to here.

    Honestly, no. I generally had the foresight to not be put in that situation.
    However, even if I were it would have to be an EMPTY men's room.
    You have the foresight to ensure that your children never had to a restroom when you were the only parent? I find that an amazing amount of work to avoid very rare situations! You know you can always teach your kids to avert their eyes too!

    Hence laws keeping penises out of girls bathrooms. Have to say, that is my sticking point on this.
    Except that your fears appear to be largely unfounded.


    If only adult women and gay men were involved you may have a point. But trans gender doesn't mean "gay". You can guy with a penis, who thinks he is a woman on the inside and is attracted to woman, in a womans restroom.

    So, I don't think your point is very valid.
    Of course it's valid, it has exposed another way where your fears are even more specific. To whit:

    1. Post op men are OK since they don't have a penis.
    2. They need to be exposing their penis OUTSIDE of the stall itself.
    3. They additionally now need to be pre op but still with an attraction to women.
    4. Also be a pedophile, since girls are not women.
    5. Also be a exhibitionist, i.e. not only does this person have to deal with body issues, possibly orientation issues, putting up with the social aversions in coming out publicly AND also take the risk to make their lives even more difficult by showing their genitals to a child!
    6. And that child also needs to be there under zero supervision!

    You could probably count that the number of people that fit that profile on one hand. Ever in the history of transgenderism!


    As long as we agree that young girls should be protected by law from being exposed to adult male genitalia (read penis).
    So transgender walks into a girls bathroom.. pulls out his penis in front of/in view my young girl. and goes to jail, as they should.

    Then we agree.
    Sure - there are already laws in exposing genitalia publicly and to children. Those laws are still in effect even when a pre-op transgendered man enters a woman's bathroom. I trust you realize that women's bathrooms don't have urinals so there is less of a reason for them to be pulling their junk out.

    The idea that a student with a penis would be allowed to go into a room with naked girls is not false. Maybe not a "shower" .. but that is an irrelevant detail.
    That is the detail that is relevant - it was Lyin' Ted lying again!

    That is not the only issue. There is a fundamental issue with adult male genitalia being exposed to young girls. allowing penises in a girls bathroom/locker room opens that door and is foolish.
    No one is even proposing this!

    That doesn't make it wise to invite the problem.
    No, it doesn't make it wise to protect against tiny risks. We already agree that girls would likely only be in a restroom when they have supervision so I don't think there is any problem here.

    On this I agree. Though I don't think it should be a matter of law.
    Laws help standardize expected facilities and behaviors. There's nothing inherently wrong with laws.


    I object to the idea that a trans gender with a penis has a need to go into a girls bathroom. There are private facilities (Ie stalls) if they wish to sit in a typical mens restroom.
    I object to the idea that a dude in a dress is in greater danger of harm entering a mens restroom. (Maybe this is because I live in an area where people cross dress at many occasions, Mardi-gras being one.. saints winning SB being another.. though much more rare
    Basically, I don't care if a guy has a dress on in the restroom.. I do care if a man is in the girls room. (read penis around children).
    I believe I have shown that your fears of any exposure is minuscule and is likely going to cause the transgendered man a great deal more grief, which in turn doesn't make sense for them to take such a risk.

    I say this only to highlight areas that I don't accept as obviously true.

    I think the central issue is not being addressed, except by sadelephan. That being taking into account the reason for seperate bathrooms to begin with, as opposed to co-ed bathrooms.
    This is not a "family room" I mean star ship troopers like co-ed. (You may recall their military had co-ed showers/restrooms)
    So think for a moment if your position justifies a co-ed restroom then explain why or why not, and why we should just change to co-ed.

    I hold that the position of "self identify" is basically the co-ed option.
    Well, there's the problem that urinals are the most efficient way for men to use a restroom so you're back to the exposure problem in a big way if you go co-ed.

    Mostly what you're proposing, which is a position I doubt you take seriously anyway, doesn't have any social support anywhere so it's a red-herring to even discuss it relative to the OP. Remember, the OP is about passing laws to PREVENT even post-operative transgendered men from entering a restroom designated for women. In that you are even more liberal than the OP: the OP requires birth gender and you're only worried about physical penises.

    I don't think you have supported a reasonable risk that there would be any exposure of genitalia to young girls so I have to say that the law discussed in the OP makes little sense.

  21. #18
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I see this whole discussion as an attempt to change social norms, so I don't think that is a very safe appeal, or at least it is definatly on my side of the argument.
    The discussion is not about whether we should change social norms. It's about what the laws should be or more to the point, do we even need laws to address this. In the past social norms have worked generally well and there is no current crisis that justifies legislating where social norms work pretty well, especially when the proposed laws are clearly counter-productive.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I guess, it's more like, why are we discussing this? Because people with penises are trying to access bathrooms for girls.
    It's more like, why do we care? IMO this is a complete non-issue and does not deserve getting worked up about and not worth creating any new laws. I don't care if people who identify and look like a woman enters the girls restroom if they are just going in there to pee. And if they are going in there for nefarious purposes, we already have a law to deal with that. And since no transgendered person has been arrested for indecent conduct in a public bathroom, you are basically concerned over something that is purely hypothetical.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not convenient at all
    How foolish of me to use last Saturdays definitions.
    But seriously that stinks of political expediency.
    I've heard that same "it's just political" argument time and time again by those who objected to homosexuality being removed from a list of mental illnesses back in the early 70s. To me such complaints stink of looking for an excuse to disregard findings that one does not personally agree with.

    And about the only way I can think that transgenderism would be considered a disorder is if one holds that the body and brain not aligning on gender causes harm to the transgendered person. In that case, the appropriate solution is to change the body or the brain to make them align. Since the brain cannot be changed, then an appropriate treatment is to change the body, either physically or at least by external appearances. Therefore external changes is not the "disease" but the treatment of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The only objection I have to that is the "let the individual decide" is the same as saying "let everyone go into whatever bathroom they like.
    It is too broad, and a person who "self identifies" as a girl today, can self Identify as a boy tomorrow etc.

    That creates an unsafe environment, and really bucks the "social norms".
    But my point is social norms prevent that from happening. People don't want to go where they don't belong, especially if that place is a public restroom.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Right, because "social norms" are not "go where you want". It is "girls aka vagina's" use this room and "boys aka penis" use that room.
    They are separate for a reason to begin with, and unless that underlying reason is addressed in the discussion we may as well have out right co-ed bathrooms.
    Are you advocating co-ed bathrooms?
    No I'm not. Actually, I agree with you minus the "penis/vagina" distinction because that's NOT where the social norms are regarding who you do and don't want to see enter a certain restroom. We don't want to see what appears to us to be a man entering the woman's restroom. And since we can't see what that man's genitalia looks like before he enters a restroom, we still want to see him enter the men's room even if he has a vagina.

    Again, you said you'd be so disturbed at seeing what appears to your eyes to be a man walk out of the lady's room that you might even attack a person and obviously you won't know what that person has in his/her pants prior to your strong reaction and that is a reaction that reflects the social norm. So even by your own example, it doesn't really matter what genitals that person has - it's what he/she appears to be to the observer.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Right, because exposing male genitalia to young girls is deserving of such action.
    Also, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a man in a girls bathroom is a threat to young girls.
    First off, you are changing the scenario. You are changing it from him just being in the restroom to him exposing himself (and such an activity is already illegal, it would also be illegal for him to expose himself to other men in a public restroom).

    And again, social norms hold that people will be concerned if a man enters the ladies room. So really the issue when is a person a "man" for the sake of using public restrooms. And per your example of seeing a man walking out of the ladies room, it's when the person appears to be a man by observers. So it's not what its inside the pants that counts, it's what is presented to the outside world. In other words, if the person looks and thinks like a lady, then social norms dictate that that person should use the lady's room regardless of what's on the birth certificate or what's in his/her pants.

    So to be clear, I'm a proponent of men belong in the men's room and women belong in the women's room (which is the social norm) and just hold that it should count as a man if it appears to be a man and considers himself more man than woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I object to the idea that a trans gender with a penis has a need to go into a girls bathroom. There are private facilities (Ie stalls) if they wish to sit in a typical mens restroom.
    But assuming you understand why a typical woman does not want to use the men's room, you should be able to understand why a transgendered woman would not want to use the men's room as well. I think such a person has a very good reason to use the lady's room (personal safety for one) and your objection is apparently just based on your own opinion. And while you are entitled to your opinion, I don't see why that should force someone who has good reason to use the lady's room to not use it.

    And I'm actually not advocating for any particular change. Transgendered people are not a new phenomena (more visible now but not new) so we've all shared bathrooms with transgendered people and didn't notice. I mean how is anyone going to know if a woman with a penis is in the ladies room? She's going to sit in her stall like everyone else, wash her hands, and leave with no one being bothered at all. And that's the way it should be. The notion of that person being forced by law to use the men's room is when people will notice that there's "something wrong" and it can cause a ruckus and perhaps even violence. I'm not saying there's a perfect option but setting laws setting criteria for when someone is a "man" or "woman" and then forcing them to use the "right" bathroom is not a good solution. Again, social norms will cause almost every situation to play out as well as it can play out.
    Last edited by mican333; May 2nd, 2016 at 03:00 PM.

  22. #19
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Ad-hom

    Thanks for playing, when you want to have an adult conversation come on back now.. ya hear?
    I'll be responding to those who can manage a debate without personal attacks from here on.
    What? You clearly havn't a clue what an Ad-hom attack is. WEre I to say...

    "You are wrong because you are mentally ill" That is an Ad-hom attack. I am not saying the source of the argument brings into question the validity of the argument.

    When I say that cehcking dicks in bahtrooms is a mental illness, that is a contrast to your claim that wanting to be a different gender is a mental illness.

    Your claim of Ad-Hom is both utterly wrong and a huge lazy cop out.
    Last edited by mican333; May 10th, 2016 at 12:28 PM.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  24. #20
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    Re: Restrooms and Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by ad hominem
    You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    "You are wrong because you are mentally ill" That is an Ad-hom attack. I am saying the source of the argument brings into question the validity of the argument.
    Right, you are calling the source mentally ill, (attacking person .. .check) Thus their argument is not valid (text book ad-hominem attack).

    The proof of this is that I could look at penises all day, be certifiably mentally ill, and that would not effect the truthfulness of my argument. Hence why ad-hominem's are logical fallacies.

    You sir, are guilty of an ad-hom attack, evidenced by reason above.
    I'm not really surprised you don't see how you committed one, and this response is for the limited purpose of supporting my assertion. your on your own from there, until of course you manage a response that addresses arguments and not the character or traits of those making them.

    ---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    It doesn't matter why - the fact is that we do and we needn't.
    your really question begging here. If we needent, then why do we have them to begin with?
    It is a centrally relevant question.

    If we have them because exposing adult genitalia ,of the opposite sex, to children is damaging; then that must be addressed if we are to seriously consider reversing a social norm designed to protect against that.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    We're not at that stage yet so our only current choice is to use self-identification or to have unisex ones.
    or co-ed. After all, if there isn't a problem then we could have co-ed bathrooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    What does that have to do the matter at hand? A transgendered male would have female bits - that's OK right? And anyway, since when do you really see any genitalia when there are only cubes? You're imagining a very specific scenario it seems.
    Your second point is a falshood. Transgendered males do not necissarily have female lady bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Wait, you'd allow a small child alone into the women's? How is that even safe!?
    Not relevant so I'm dropping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Right so if it's already a crime, why do you need additional laws? There are no additional laws preventing adult males being with young girls in other situations like restaurants, schools, etc. Why do you need an additional law for restrooms?
    Because people seem confused about what boys and girls are.

    https://youtu.be/LhrYWNAKFSY?t=152

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Right - so you agree that transgendered males belong in a female restroom?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    OK - so you're not against genetic males, you're just bothered about their physical genitalia; ut only if they're exposed to young girls even though most people will use a toilet cube that has a door.
    I don't understand this portion.
    I'm not sure how i could be against genetic males, or why I would be bothered by physical genitalia (I do love me some Vajaja).

    to your clear point that normal opperations in a girls bathroom would not expose girls to the sight of penises.. i respond below.


    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    So exactly what are you bothered about? There doesn't seem to be a normal scenario where a pre-op transgendered man would even have an opportunity to show his genitalia!
    Sweet.. so lets have co-ed bathrooms.. agree?


    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    You have the foresight to ensure that your children never had to a restroom when you were the only parent? I find that an amazing amount of work to avoid very rare situations! You know you can always teach your kids to avert their eyes too!
    HAHAHA.
    It's really not that hard, I don't go out with my kids unless my wife is with me, or they are old enough to go on their own.
    Worked out pretty easy, mostly because I work tons, and don't do fun stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Except that your fears appear to be largely unfounded.
    So unfounded that we have hundreds of years of boys and girls restrooms, when apparently co-ed is much more logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Of course it's valid, it has exposed another way where your fears are even more specific. To whit:

    1. Post op men are OK since they don't have a penis.
    2. They need to be exposing their penis OUTSIDE of the stall itself.
    3. They additionally now need to be pre op but still with an attraction to women.
    4. Also be a pedophile, since girls are not women.
    5. Also be a exhibitionist, i.e. not only does this person have to deal with body issues, possibly orientation issues, putting up with the social aversions in coming out publicly AND also take the risk to make their lives even more difficult by showing their genitals to a child!
    6. And that child also needs to be there under zero supervision!

    You could probably count that the number of people that fit that profile on one hand. Ever in the history of transgenderism!
    First I have to point out that you are totally ignoring the locker room situations, where people commonly walk naked, especially in the girls room.
    So hypothetically you could have a trans-man in the girls locker room walking around naked, and that would be perfectly legal and acceptable in your worldview. There my reasoning is particularly pertenant.

    I think your ignoring of the point that we must understand why we have seperate bathrooms to begin with is fueling your neivety on this portion.
    I mean, according to your above we should have been using co-ed bathrooms all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Sure - there are already laws in exposing genitalia publicly and to children. Those laws are still in effect even when a pre-op transgendered man enters a woman's bathroom. I trust you realize that women's bathrooms don't have urinals so there is less of a reason for them to be pulling their junk out.
    I'm not certain they are. It certainly isn't the case in the mens room.



    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    I believe I have shown that your fears of any exposure is minuscule and is likely going to cause the transgendered man a great deal more grief, which in turn doesn't make sense for them to take such a risk.
    Well, they are inherently going to be miniscule because of the miniscule population of trans-gender. Also, there simply is no need for them to have access to womens room, when the mens room is sufficient, and as there are stalls there too they can have whatever privacy they want, without adding the risk of sexual assualt on children. (here not physical assault, but visual).

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Well, there's the problem that urinals are the most efficient way for men to use a restroom so you're back to the exposure problem in a big way if you go co-ed.
    I dont' think the efficiency argument is very strong if you could eleminate half the bathrooms in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAD
    Mostly what you're proposing, which is a position I doubt you take seriously anyway, doesn't have any social support anywhere so it's a red-herring to even discuss it relative to the OP.
    Not sure what "social support" you are looking for?
    I mean, I'm basing my argument on the foundation of us having seperate bathrooms to begine with for a reason, and we should explore and consider that reason.
    You seem totally uninterested in that aspect. I forward a PORTION of what I think that underlying reason is (namely exposure of adult..to children of opposit sex)

    You don't find it very compelling, and that is fine, I suspect there is more to the underlying reasoning to start with.
    however I think you do agree that it is a concern, though you dismiss it as being minisucule.
    on the whole I don't think we weigh the threat of sexual asault on children in the manner you have, and especially as a parent the odds really aren't the driving force.
    The odds of any particular strange being a pedophile may be low, but we still teach kids not to talk to strangers for a reason.

    ------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The discussion is not about whether we should change social norms. It's about what the laws should be or more to the point, do we even need laws to address this. In the past social norms have worked generally well and there is no current crisis that justifies legislating where social norms work pretty well, especially when the proposed laws are clearly counter-productive.
    Not sure they laws are counter productive or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    It's more like, why do we care?
    I guess for the same reasons we don't have co-ed bathrooms/lockerooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    MO this is a complete non-issue and does not deserve getting worked up about and not worth creating any new laws. I don't care if people who identify and look like a woman enters the girls restroom if they are just going in there to pee. And if they are going in there for nefarious purposes, we already have a law to deal with that. And since no transgendered person has been arrested for indecent conduct in a public bathroom, you are basically concerned over something that is purely hypothetical.
    I would say it has been a non-issue, because this is a very new issue. In the past you couldn't have a penis attached to a girl, or have a man grow breasts. This is a creation of modern science, and the social norms are just now being pushed.
    I already quoted a story where a young boy with a penis was going to be granted access to the girls locker room. That on it's own has a long history of occuring and being punished, but now it is supposed to be accepted.
    So your appeal has some merit, but I think once you consider the novelty of the elements of the problem you will see that it isn't a very reasonable position.

    I mean, if it isn't a problem then your saying that a Man with a penis walking naked in a girls locker room, is perfectly acceptable both in behavior and socially. You must hold that such a situation should carry no legal ramifications, and can't possibly have negative effects on young girls in states of undress in the same room.

    If not, then how do we stop that situation while also granting full and equal access to girls locker room? Do we say it is equally illegal for women to walk around naked in the locker rooms? Do you see a problem at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I've heard that same "it's just political" argument time and time again by those who objected to homosexuality being removed from a list of mental illnesses back in the early 70s. To me such complaints stink of looking for an excuse to disregard findings that one does not personally agree with.
    I actually went to school for phsycology, and it was taught as common knowledg that it was politically motivated for the homosexuality change. That was years ago now, and I don't really claim any more special knowledge in the particular field, but my opinion here is formed by my official education on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But my point is social norms prevent that from happening. People don't want to go where they don't belong, especially if that place is a public restroom.
    Disproved by my story of boy in girls locker room.

    I think what you are saying has been true in the past, but this is a time of envelop pushing. Hence the discussion and laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No I'm not. Actually, I agree with you minus the "penis/vagina" distinction because that's NOT where the social norms are regarding who you do and don't want to see enter a certain restroom. We don't want to see what appears to us to be a man entering the woman's restroom. And since we can't see what that man's genitalia looks like before he enters a restroom, we still want to see him enter the men's room even if he has a vagina.

    Again, you said you'd be so disturbed at seeing what appears to your eyes to be a man walk out of the lady's room that you might even attack a person and obviously you won't know what that person has in his/her pants prior to your strong reaction and that is a reaction that reflects the social norm. So even by your own example, it doesn't really matter what genitals that person has - it's what he/she appears to be to the observer.
    I'm not certain that is very true. I mean we have plenty of exposure to cross dressers around here, and that doesn't seem to be an issue of a dude in a dress in a mens restroom.

    Of course if your point is that we don't have a problem when we are ignorant of the facts or actuality.. well duh. Can people fool us? Yes of course, that is how sexual preditors exist at all right.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So to be clear, I'm a proponent of men belong in the men's room and women belong in the women's room (which is the social norm) and just hold that it should count as a man if it appears to be a man and considers himself more man than woman.
    I agree with you up to the last point. What they consider themselves is not relvant. In that, if they aren't fooling anyone
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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