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  1. #21
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What? how does building with concrete enable organized crime?
    It doesn't, using a concrete company owned and operated by a crime family does.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yea, I am missing your point, but I'm trying really hard to catch it.

    So, doing things the easy way is cheating? Like, suppose a person was blackmailing me for money so that they would not go public with false accusations that would hurt me even once they were proved false.
    Taking the "easy" way of paying the money is "cheating" to you?

    Compared to the guy who clears his name in the honest way, suffering the slings and arrows, yes.

    ---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It appears The Donald had done that by every measure, and to a great enough degree of success that other business men actively seek to learn from him. "The Art of the Deal" is evidence of that.
    That's debatable.

    ---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    So, while I can understand why you want to diminish his business prowess, it is pretty ridiculous on it's face. He is and has been very successful specifically because of his personal hard work and ingenuity it dealing with the business world that surrounds him.

    I really don't see how it is the job of any businessman to eradicate organized crime, which is what you seem to expect.
    Or, why a businessman must always choose the more expensive morally upstanding business partner, rather than a cheaper morally reprehensible partner.. even when no crime occurs in the exchange.
    Like buying cheap and effective cement from a crime boss (totally legit exchange) vs (apparently) buying expensive steel from the local Baptist preacher.
    Again with the excuses...poor Donald having to deal with the world around him.

    I'm not saying he has to do what's right, doing what's morally right is harder.

    ---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Honestly, I'm surprised at your level of judgment. You would have people refuse to do business with other simply because they don't share the same morality as you.
    I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that any tolerant and open minded, liberal would forward such a racist, bigoted, crimophobic position.
    Sarcasm noted...more like ignored.
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  2. #22
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    It doesn't, using a concrete company owned and operated by a crime family does.
    I think you are holding business owners responsible for things they are not responsible for.
    The existence of crime family's, their influence and power to effect businessmen is not the responsibility of trump or other businessmen. It has not been argued that there were equally as good alternative choices available at the time. More of a guilt by association game being played.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That's debatable.
    not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Again with the excuses...poor Donald having to deal with the world around him.

    I'm not saying he has to do what's right, doing what's morally right is harder.
    Call reality excuses if you like, but you haven't really offered a valid attack. You have offered a note with no context and your oversimplified alternatives that ignore relevant factors.

    So.. yea, not rising to the level of why others should care yet.
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  3. #23
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think you are holding business owners responsible for things they are not responsible for.
    The existence of crime family's, their influence and power to effect businessmen is not the responsibility of trump or other businessmen. It has not been argued that there were equally as good alternative choices available at the time. More of a guilt by association game being played.
    Well, yes, only not a game, it is guilt by association.

    You'll have to believe me when I say I'm putting my personal experiences with organized crime and the destruction they inflict on people's lives. This is not portrayed in the movies where the gangsters appear in fine clothes and act classy ("classy"...sound familiar?). Nor is the violence they perpetrate confined to their own organization as I've also heard.

    So it amazes me when someone needs to be endlessly investigate for having an extra marital affair, yet one who makes money from dealing with such scum not only gets a pass but is canonized as a saint of business.

    ---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    not really.
    Really.

    "Trump Vodka

    The Donald had a vodka. Trump vodka (labeled super premium, naturally) was introduced in 2006 to much fanfare. Under the slogan "Success Distilled," the liquor was touted as the "epitome of vodka" that would "demand the same respect and inspire the same awe as the international legacy and brand of Donald Trump himself." At the time, Trump predicted the T&T (Trump and Tonic) would become the most requested drink in America, surpassed only by the Trump Martini. On Larry King Live, he said he got into the vodka business to outdo his friends at Grey Goose. Six years later, Grey Goose is still on top shelves throughout the country. As for Trump vodka? Yeah, we'd never heard of it either. The New York City blog Gothamist reports the vodka has stopped production "because the company failed to meet the threshold requirements." Two weeks ago, Trump's company filed an injunction to prevent an Israeli company from selling Trump vodka without his consent or authorization. Meaning the Donald stopped the only people in world who wanted to drink his vodka from doing so."

    http://content.time.com/time/special...068224,00.html

    The rest of the article concerning Trump airlines and his Casinos are equally hilarious.

    ---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Call reality excuses if you like, but you haven't really offered a valid attack. You have offered a note with no context and your oversimplified alternatives that ignore relevant factors.

    So.. yea, not rising to the level of why others should care yet.

    Then why did HP cut off business dealings with a company that was dealing with Iran? http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Car.../20/id/692450/

    HP wasn't violating the sanctions, were they? Would you say there was no problem in this instance either?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #24
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Well, yes, only not a game, it is guilt by association.
    I don't think that is a valid approach to make, but you are free to do so.. just don't expect others to fall off their horse every time you make such accusations.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    You'll have to believe me when I say I'm putting my personal experiences with organized crime and the destruction they inflict on people's lives. This is not portrayed in the movies where the gangsters appear in fine clothes and act classy ("classy"...sound familiar?). Nor is the violence they perpetrate confined to their own organization as I've also heard.

    So it amazes me when someone needs to be endlessly investigate for having an extra marital affair, yet one who makes money from dealing with such scum not only gets a pass but is canonized as a saint of business.
    Well, I would say that if the crime families are not being investigated on their own, then we have a problem in out society. Wouldn't you agree?
    As such, Donalds dealings would fall under that investigation, not require a new one on Trump.

    So, I would say.. if he did business with scum bags.. call me when there was a crime committed. Otherwise it is not interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Really.

    "Trump Vodka
    Yea.. really. Look at his net-worth, the overall success of his companies, the prominence of his buildings, the name recognition he had before his T.V exploits.
    I mean.. you can point to some failures all you like but "failing forward" only cements his legacy, not detracts from it.

    Would you tell me Sam Walton was a horrible businessman because he had many failed businesses and didn't have any real success until after he was 50? Because the business world is going to look at that as a triumph.

    That is the equivalent of what you are doing with trump. His failures on the way don't matter, he doesn't have to be perfect, and ONLY do great deals. The fact is, he does and has done deals that most business people only dream of.

    I believe your perspective to be totally wrong, and certainly not in line with what business people consider success.


    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Then why did HP cut off business dealings with a company that was dealing with Iran?
    I don't know, and I'm sure I don't care.
    Is there some relevant detail hidden in the link you posted? Because I'm not going to go digging for it.


    Look I shop at wal-mart, and they do business with china. So if I am going to look for the moral high ground in business, i would be greatly limited in where I can shop. Probably down to the mom/pop shops.
    If you shop at wal-mart, or any other big box store, or purchase any product from china, it is pretty hypocritical for you to turn around and expect other businessmen not to do business with scumbags to get things done.

    Fact is, the business climate is created by the gov, not by the businesses. If Trump had to deal with crime families to get cement, it is a failure of the gov to put crime families in jail, not inherently of Trump to try and avoid people you don't like.
    To serve man.

  5. #25
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think that is a valid approach to make, but you are free to do so.. just don't expect others to fall off their horse every time you make such accusations.
    You're arguing from the side that accused Hillary Clinton of shooting Vince Foster and having her husband dump the body in a park.

    ---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I would say that if the crime families are not being investigated on their own, then we have a problem in out society. Wouldn't you agree?
    As such, Donalds dealings would fall under that investigation, not require a new one on Trump.

    So, I would say.. if he did business with scum bags.. call me when there was a crime committed. Otherwise it is not interesting.
    Well, of course I agree, when the likes of you admires such collaborations (not just looks the other way) I'd say we have a problem.

    ---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Yea.. really. Look at his net-worth, the overall success of his companies, the prominence of his buildings, the name recognition he had before his T.V exploits.
    I mean.. you can point to some failures all you like but "failing forward" only cements his legacy, not detracts from it.

    Would you tell me Sam Walton was a horrible businessman because he had many failed businesses and didn't have any real success until after he was 50? Because the business world is going to look at that as a triumph.

    That is the equivalent of what you are doing with trump. His failures on the way don't matter, he doesn't have to be perfect, and ONLY do great deals. The fact is, he does and has done deals that most business people only dream of.

    I believe your perspective to be totally wrong, and certainly not in line with what business people consider success.
    Right, so the ends justify the means. Exactly my argument, it's that he has money that really matters. How he got it really doesn't matter at all so why run as some type of brilliant businessman.

    ---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    I don't know, and I'm sure I don't care.
    Is there some relevant detail hidden in the link you posted? Because I'm not going to go digging for it.


    Look I shop at wal-mart, and they do business with china. So if I am going to look for the moral high ground in business, i would be greatly limited in where I can shop. Probably down to the mom/pop shops.
    If you shop at wal-mart, or any other big box store, or purchase any product from china, it is pretty hypocritical for you to turn around and expect other businessmen not to do business with scumbags to get things done.

    Fact is, the business climate is created by the gov, not by the businesses. If Trump had to deal with crime families to get cement, it is a failure of the gov to put crime families in jail, not inherently of Trump to try and avoid people you don't like.
    But China isn't under any sanctions.
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  6. #26
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    You're arguing from the side that accused Hillary Clinton of shooting Vince Foster and having her husband dump the body in a park.
    What in the world are you talking about? I have never even heard of such a thing, nor does it relate to me or my argument at all.

    so.... yea.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Well, of course I agree, when the likes of you admires such collaborations (not just looks the other way) I'd say we have a problem.
    the likes of me?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Right, so the ends justify the means. Exactly my argument, it's that he has money that really matters. How he got it really doesn't matter at all so why run as some type of brilliant businessman.
    No, this is not an ends justifies the means situation. This is the end supports the argument.
    It is very hard to argue that a person is not a successful businessmen, when they have success as a result of their business dealings.

    Of course how he got it matters, that is why so many in the business world seek to learn from him. That is why his book was so successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    But China isn't under any sanctions.
    So? We are talking moral high ground not legal... riiiight.



    So.. what is your point cowboy?
    That Trump isn't a successful businessman? If that is your assertion, then please support why anyone should agree with that.
    To serve man.

  7. #27
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    So.. what is your point cowboy?
    That Trump isn't a successful businessman? If that is your assertion, then please support why anyone should agree with that.

    I already have...Trump airlines and all the rest of his failures. Did he manage to enrich himself through increasing his brand image and worth, yes, is that the type of management expertise he is running on...no.

    And as for people coming to him to learn, I'll add that as another failure, Trump University.

    ---------- Post added at 01:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So? We are talking moral high ground not legal... riiiight.
    They go hand in hand. Heck the US has been accused of human rights abuses, not sure what the problem with China would be...communists, there's nothing morally wrong with being a communist.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #28
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I already have...Trump airlines and all the rest of his failures. Did he manage to enrich himself through increasing his brand image and worth, yes, is that the type of management expertise he is running on...no.

    And as for people coming to him to learn, I'll add that as another failure, Trump University.
    I don't know how pointing to a few of trumps failures actually supports the idea that he is a bad businessman.
    Because, clearly he is successful, and he did it through business. You have provided nothing that contradicts that point.
    Thus what he is running on is painfully obviously true.

    You have a better chance showing how someone else running is a "better" manager, by showing greater success or a higher rate of success or some other tangible comparable metric.
    So far, you have offered no context to a given failure in relation to his whole carrier. Tom Brady threw 4int's in the AFC Championship game against the chargers. I guess is dramatic failure shows he is a horrible QB, and should never run on his accomplishments as a QB.

    Now if you know anything about football, you understand how great a failure it is for a QB to have 4int in a game. However that one fact is totally lacking in context (as your trump examples are). For example, the team won that game, Brady (who I am not a fan of) is one of the greatest to ever play the position.

    So my point is you are going to have to provide a better argument with more context if you wish to sustain your accusation.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    They go hand in hand. Heck the US has been accused of human rights abuses, not sure what the problem with China would be...communists, there's nothing morally wrong with being a communist.
    AMERICAS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS!!! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.. That is rich. Tell me another one.
    As for china, hey, if you have no problem with child sweatshops then of course there is no problem with doing business with china.
    To serve man.

  9. #29
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't know how pointing to a few of trumps failures actually supports the idea that he is a bad businessman.
    Because, clearly he is successful, and he did it through business. You have provided nothing that contradicts that point.
    Thus what he is running on is painfully obviously true.

    You have a better chance showing how someone else running is a "better" manager, by showing greater success or a higher rate of success or some other tangible comparable metric.
    So far, you have offered no context to a given failure in relation to his whole carrier. Tom Brady threw 4int's in the AFC Championship game against the chargers. I guess is dramatic failure shows he is a horrible QB, and should never run on his accomplishments as a QB.

    Now if you know anything about football, you understand how great a failure it is for a QB to have 4int in a game. However that one fact is totally lacking in context (as your trump examples are). For example, the team won that game, Brady (who I am not a fan of) is one of the greatest to ever play the position.

    So my point is you are going to have to provide a better argument with more context if you wish to sustain your accusation.
    I'm not saying he's a bad businessman, like you've said wealth can come from inheritance and just luck. I'd even add violence and illegal activity to that. It's no secret that Trump started out on 3rd base and I agree he turned his brand into a fortune. But that's not what he's running on. He claims to be a brilliant administrator and manager. His casinos inability to make money in Atlantic city prove that's not true. of course, he claims that he wasn't involved in their running. I'm sure if they had been doing well he would have claimed that success.

    I provided support. The part about Trump airlines - taking a good business and wrecking it - is support enough.

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    AMERICAS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS!!! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.. That is rich. Tell me another one.
    As for china, hey, if you have no problem with child sweatshops then of course there is no problem with doing business with china.
    Sounds like a libertarian paradise.

    As for our rights violations, there's plenty to consider:

    https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201.../united-states

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2...ious-violation
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  10. #30
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I'm not saying he's a bad businessman,
    well.. then I guess he has something legitimate to run on then.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    His casinos inability to make money in Atlantic city prove that's not true. of course, he claims that he wasn't involved in their running.
    Well, his involvement is relevant to his claim ...right?
    And if after 10 year he sells it and make a profit... I guess he would just prove to have a longer view then others.


    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I provided support. The part about Trump airlines - taking a good business and wrecking it - is support enough.
    You are correct, the wine thing, the airline thing, the casino (all of which I grant without challenge), are "support".
    I would contend that, that support does not contradict my counter to your argument (and it's support).

    So... I leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Sounds like a libertarian paradise.
    It is hardly a libertarian paradise, but that is a far cry from what I think of when I think human rights violations.
    It is just that America is so far ahead of every other country on that front, that hearing that accusation from any country is laughable.

    Notably your links are mostly full of Sh@t, so no real reason to think America is the problem in the world.
    To serve man.

  11. #31
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Notably your links are mostly full of Sh@t, so no real reason to think America is the problem in the world.
    How so?

    and I agree we are (supposed to be) further ahead, which amplifies even the smallest abuses here. Not that I'm saying we only have minor abuses, I provided support otherwise.

    ---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Well, his involvement is relevant to his claim ...right?
    And if after 10 year he sells it and make a profit... I guess he would just prove to have a longer view then others.
    True, or lack thereof. Success has a thousand fathers as the saying goes. His casinos we're faltering and he claimed to have nothing to do with their operation beyond his name on them. A believable excuse, one that protects his brand image. He's sure good at coming up with dodges. That may be good for business, but, then again, government isn't a business.

    ---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    well.. then I guess he has something legitimate to run on then.
    That doesn't mean he's a good manager or administrator. Again, government isn't a business and it isn't run like one.
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  12. #32
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Appropriate to bump this thread.

    Trump got a complete pass in the vetting process.
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  13. #33
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Appropriate to bump this thread.

    Trump got a complete pass in the vetting process.
    HAHA!

    I think if your questions had even the slightest hint of pass ability as a serious journalistic question, the corrupt morons of the media would have been glad to forward them.
    You really don't have a leg to stand on given the level of hostility the media displayed and is displaying.
    To serve man.

  14. #34
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    HAHA!

    I think if your questions had even the slightest hint of pass ability as a serious journalistic question, the corrupt morons of the media would have been glad to forward them.
    You really don't have a leg to stand on given the level of hostility the media displayed and is displaying.
    I have to agree, we tend to hold a higher bar on our side.

    Compare to how many stories there have been about Hillary shooting Vince Foster in the face and Bill carrying his body to dump it in the park from your media.
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  15. #35
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Appropriate to bump this thread.

    Trump got a complete pass in the vetting process.
    Says the Obama supporter... This is absurd on so many levels. The news was investigating Trump incidents from the 70's. Did they omit something from his prom? Did they not parade enough women making accusations that he assaulted them from the 80's and 90's? Everyone saw Trump's warts, took him as a deeply flawed person and candidate, and still voted him over Clinton.


    He won this election with virtually no support from the press. The idea he was not vetted is a ridiculous claim, even for you. He won for the following reasons:
    1) Hillary was, herself, a flawed candidate, both morally and ethically. An argument could be made that she is the weakest candidate ever to run for President among the major parties. People don't like her, trust her, or feel motivated by her. This election was, in part, a referendum on her and establishment party politics.

    2) The Democratic party played exclusively for the urban vote, expecting blacks and hispanics to vote in droves. In applying this strategy, they simply ignored blue collar white voters. Those people came out in droves for Trump and the expected votes from blacks and hispanics didn't turn out at the levels the DNC expected or needed.

    3) Trump made a compelling pitch to the very voters the DNC ignored. He made a promise of jobs and recovery. Whatever you may think of his ability to deliver, he reached out to those voters. They decided to vote for Trump, choosing economic issues over social issues. As one of Hillary's media consultants, Mandy Grumwald, expressed prior to the election, voters desire change more than they fear the risk of a Trump presidency.

    It is really that simple and reinforces a lesson Bill's team laid out over a decade earlier. Its the economy stupid. A lesson that Hillary, ironically, ignored. This election was hers to lose. She snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. As Trump noted in her 2008 loss to Obama. She choked and got schlonged as a result. This is not the press' fault. They were openly cheer leading for her and investigating every phrase out of Trump's mouth, often making controversy where there was not any. They often did not even report on bad news related to Hillary. I noted how CNN and MSNBC would simply not report things that came out from Wikileaks. The liberals who are smart are not looking at anyone but themselves for this election loss. And I am not about to commit the sin of overreaction one typically hears on the cable news channels. This is a single election and there is going to be a winner and a loser. Just as the Republicans were not as close to dead as previously reported in 2012, the Democrats are not in full crises mode either. However, many do see that changes are needed and they have an opportunity to make things better for their future chances or worse. I'm personally rooting for worse, but I think both parties could go to hell. That's where you and I really differ. You see everything through a biased lens. Blame defeat on anyone other than your guy. Play the victim at every turn. Claim persecution and bias. I just hope there are more Democrats just like you, because that sort of thinking will lead to the end of the party. I nominate you for DNC chair.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  17. #36
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    Re: "21 Questions For Donald Trump"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    He won this election with virtually no support from the press. The idea he was not vetted is a ridiculous claim, even for you. He won for the following reasons:
    1) Hillary was, herself, a flawed candidate, both morally and ethically. An argument could be made that she is the weakest candidate ever to run for President among the major parties. People don't like her, trust her, or feel motivated by her. This election was, in part, a referendum on her and establishment party politics.
    Hmm, yet she won the popular vote by 3 million - more if you consider the Sanders split. More likely, the election wasn't really taken seriously, similarly the threat from Trump - who was more often given a pass in lieu of his business and deal making "expertise". Failing that his nationalism - concealing racism and misogyny - would do nicely with the likes of you. It's that which is why you will steadfastly support him in spite of activities that would have militias on the march had it been anyone else...disrespecting the military, veterans, being compromised to a foreign power, betraying all sorts of character flaws, etc.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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