Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 47
  1. #21
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Hmm, that is a pretty broad definition I think. I could fit Amazon into that definition since their ownership is public.
    Not sure what the problem is with returning to an excellent thread...especially when it's mine.

    Sure, "corporations are people" aren't they? As is often expressed on the right.

    ---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Likewise, the post office being able to send paper to all over the place is neat and all, but if you are arguing it is an improvement, you have to compare to what. Was it an improvement on 1780s American systems (maybe), is it an improvement on current delivery services (much harder to argue).
    I think that's what I did. Current delivery services still don't do what the USPS does - that is why they use the USPS for the last mile. I live 5 minutes from a major downtown urban area (on a peninsula) and FedEx sometimes sends my packages with the regular mailman. I could also add the "poison pills" the USPS had had to swallow at conservative's request because they desire the privatization of the system in addition to the restrictions on allowing them to add services.

    So the service could be even better.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #22
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not sure what the problem is with returning to an excellent thread...especially when it's mine.
    Fair enough, just a bit of playful fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Sure, "corporations are people" aren't they?
    No, they aren't.

    Its this poor understanding of language which has caused all the uproar over the Citizens United case. Corporations are persons not people. A person can be a representative, including a representative of a group. It is the same legal principle that applies the First Amendment to The New York Times rather than just the reporters who work at the New York Times.

    Returning to the main point of this thread, your definition clearly is overly broad. So when you say "social ownership" what exactly do you mean? Who comprises that group? What is their method of ownership? How are the individual wills of all the individuals on that group collected into guidance for management?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I think that's what I did. Current delivery services still don't do what the USPS does - that is why they use the USPS for the last mile.
    Is/Ought fallacy. Showing that Fedex, for example, uses USPS for the last mile of delivery (and this has virtually ended since you posted this thread I believe, especially with Amazon) has no relevance on whether the world would be a better place without the USPS. For example, in that world, lets say Fedex would have to charge another dollar to cover that last bit of delivery, but that would save $1.50 of debt incurred or inflation caused by USPS' unprofitable activities.

    The point of that is that the world is far more complex than simply saying "look they can move mail, that must be a net benefit." That is why I asked about counterfactuals. https://conceptually.org/concepts/co...tual-thinking/ Unless you can show that this state of affairs is better than the counterfactuals, you can't coherently argue that these systems improved our lives.

    Let's take a ridiculous example to prove the point. Let's say you are a political prisoner in the gulag. You get 1 piece of bread every three days. You are starving and cold. Now, let's say they increased your ration to one piece of bread every two days. You are still starving, but slightly less so.

    Would you say that the existence of the gulag improved your life? No, of course not. The most you could say is that the gulag improved the conditions it had imposed upon you. Likewise, here, you could only argue that these systems improved their own services, not that they improved society compared to other options.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  3. Likes MindTrap028, Ibelsd liked this post
  4. #23
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Returning to the main point of this thread, your definition clearly is overly broad. So when you say "social ownership" what exactly do you mean? Who comprises that group? What is their method of ownership? How are the individual wills of all the individuals on that group collected into guidance for management?
    Well, yes, if you want to define social ownership I'd say that yes, Amazon could fit into that. We're talking about things humans do socially...together. So all of the elements of social ownership are more on a sliding continuum. So maybe an egalitarian form of membership on one side where every worker has the same amount of stock to a more drastically stratified on the other. Who comprises the group? A few buddies from college on one side up to every person in a country on the other. Broad, yes, the false dichotomy of socialism/capitalism no.

    ---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    For example, in that world, lets say Fedex would have to charge another dollar to cover that last bit of delivery, but that would save $1.50 of debt incurred or inflation caused by USPS' unprofitable activities.
    Would they though? And would that bring the same amount of service. Let's say in the realm of security. I'm a fan of the hilarious videos of porch pirates stealing Amazon boxes - it's a thing - people know to stay away from mailboxes, just like they know to stay away from police dogs and horses because the penalties for screwing with them are so high. So would the security be equal or would it be passed on to the customer to take it up with local law enforcement.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #24
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Just for information:

    https://www.ttnews.com/articles/amaz...ommerce-sector


    “One thing that may change is you may see someone coming up to your neighbor’s sidewalk with a package,” he said. “The Amazon people don’t necessarily have any logos or anything on the truck that says Amazon. So there may be some questions there.”

    Amazon is hiring contract workers, many driving white rental vans, who handle last-mile, ground deliveries to homes and businesses. These contract workers have been noticed in St. Joseph for the past couple of weeks.

    I have to admit that I used the amazon drop-off at my local 7/11 once and I liked it. Does anyone know if they have a similar pick-up type service and have you used it? There's no reason the USPS couldn't do a similar thing.

    Non-uniformed contract workers? I'm sure they're filling some kind of niche, like Uber, and Uber sure has had its problems with labor. Since this is only in a trial stage I wonder how it will develop and if there will be similar problems.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #25
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Well, yes, if you want to define social ownership I'd say that yes, Amazon could fit into that. We're talking about things humans do socially...together.
    Which brings me back to my original complaint about the use of the term socialism or social ownership in this thread. It is so broad as to be meaningless. This definition is so milk toast that we could pretty easily shoehorn capitalism into it. Capitalism is, after all, something that people do socially together. A definition that can fit everything from anarcho-capitalism, to fascism and socialism into it is a meaningless definition.

    Its why socialism was never defined in the way you are using it here until recently. Its an attempt to coopt communalism and broaden it for popularity's sake.

    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Would they though? And would that bring the same amount of service.
    Yes to the former question. That is definitionally true. Unless you are arguing that the USPS could just "be better."

    Probably no to the latter. There are certain activities that USPS engages in that cost more than people are willing to pay for them. IE things we don't really want at the actual cost of providing them.

    And if you think that mail theft isn't a thing, I'll forward you to google and you can find a host of examples to show otherwise. People just don't have as many cameras pointed at their mailboxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    There's no reason the USPS couldn't do a similar thing.
    Except they've had lets say 80 years and never adopted it. Why? Because USPS faces no pressure to innovate or improve service via competition until recently. It isn't a surprise that tha vast, vast majority of USPS innovations occurred following the rise of Fedex and UPS.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #26
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.
    Except, as I had to correct someone else recently, Marx and Engels were pointing out how inequity leads to conflict and all of the ills you are describing and they were proposing a system to alleviate it. So we institute laws and provide for their just enforcement. As opposed to, say, a system a sovereign citizen might want to see.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #27
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Except, as I had to correct someone else recently, Marx and Engels were pointing out how inequity leads to conflict and all of the ills you are describing and they were proposing a system to alleviate it.
    Neat, (Marx also thought that the value of something was solely determined by its labor input, so I'm not sure I hold him as a high thinker) what does that have to do with my point?

    So some inequity or percieved inequity (remember that Engels thought the perception of inequity more important than actual inequity) happens then humans get together, socially, and exterminate a different race. How does the inequity or percieved inequity change the fact that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially?

    The presence of inequity, or percieved inequity, seems to be meaningless to the fact that, under your definition, all those those tragedies would be lumped under socialism.



    I'll assume also that you are dropping the odd position of holding up USPS as an example of how great an organization can run if owned by the government.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #28
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    So some inequity or percieved inequity (remember that Engels thought the perception of inequity more important than actual inequity) happens then humans get together, socially, and exterminate a different race. How does the inequity or percieved inequity change the fact that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially?
    Is that what they suggested, killing? I assume that's what you mean by exterminate.

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I'll assume also that you are dropping the odd position of holding up USPS as an example of how great an organization can run if owned by the government.
    No. I will concede that leaving it up to congress is a bad idea without any protections from parties acting in bad faith (republicans) is a bad idea.
    Last edited by CowboyX; July 25th, 2019 at 08:04 AM.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #29
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is that what they suggested, killing? I assume that's what you mean by exterminate.
    Swing and a miss. I initially brought up the point that we do lots of horrible things together, socially if you will, so if your definition of socialism is "stuff we do together" then we need to hold socialism accountable for things like ethnic cleansing. You tried to invoke Marx and Engles as a defense because they advocated for actual socialism (not the one you are using in your definition) because of their poorly conceived economic understanding of inequality. IE, your argument was that inequality was the driver of these problems.

    I pointed out that that does not thing to address my point. It doesn't matter what fairy tail that Marx and Engles told themselves, the question is, how does the presence of inequality or the perception of inequality change the fact that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    No. I will concede that leaving it up to congress is a bad idea without any protections from parties acting in bad faith (republicans) is a bad idea.
    Except you didn't defend your point when corrected and you offer no defense of this talking points memo style hit piece. So..absent any support or evidence it is hard to claim that you are still holding that view. It was rebutted and you've done nothing to address it.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #30
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Except you didn't defend your point when corrected and you offer no defense of this talking points memo style hit piece. So..absent any support or evidence it is hard to claim that you are still holding that view. It was rebutted and you've done nothing to address it.
    I thought I had answered that with rural mail delivery. The counterfactual being that there would be no delivery.

    ---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Swing and a miss. I initially brought up the point that we do lots of horrible things together, socially if you will, so if your definition of socialism is "stuff we do together" then we need to hold socialism accountable for things like ethnic cleansing. You tried to invoke Marx and Engles as a defense because they advocated for actual socialism (not the one you are using in your definition) because of their poorly conceived economic understanding of inequality. IE, your argument was that inequality was the driver of these problems.

    I pointed out that that does not thing to address my point. It doesn't matter what fairy tail that Marx and Engles told themselves, the question is, how does the presence of inequality or the perception of inequality change the fact that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially?
    Are you asking if it justifies them?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #31
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Are you asking if it justifies them?
    Only if that is what you are proposing (we know Marx went that far for example). I specifically asked you to defend your insertion of inequality into the point being discussed; that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially. Your argument, again, was that "socialism" is to be redefined as "things we do socially" which would seemingly make it liable for things like ethnic cleansing. You inserted inequality, I'm asking how is that relevant at all to your definition, which mentioned no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I thought I had answered that with rural mail delivery. The counterfactual being that there would be no delivery.
    That would be a pretty terrible counterfactual given that you can get fedex or UPS or Amazon to deliver to rural homes absent USPS assistance. We should also remember that the USPS didn't deliver rurally for a very, very long time. Thus it is hard to argue that the USPS is demonstrably better than the private services that emerged to cover its lack of coverage and speed.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  13. #32
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Only if that is what you are proposing (we know Marx went that far for example). I specifically asked you to defend your insertion of inequality into the point being discussed; that the decision to exterminate another race was made socially. Your argument, again, was that "socialism" is to be redefined as "things we do socially" which would seemingly make it liable for things like ethnic cleansing. You inserted inequality, I'm asking how is that relevant at all to your definition, which mentioned no such thing.
    Ok, right because that comes from the theory - that these inequalities develop within society and are the cause of injustice. For example, Pol Pot says to kill all people with glasses...so? If I'm a guy with glasses I'm going to say "let's kill all guys named 'Pol' instead". What's the difference? Why did I end up in the killing fields and Pol Pot didn't? The unequal amount of power. Drastic in this case.

    ---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    That would be a pretty terrible counterfactual given that you can get fedex or UPS or Amazon to deliver to rural homes absent USPS assistance. We should also remember that the USPS didn't deliver rurally for a very, very long time. Thus it is hard to argue that the USPS is demonstrably better than the private services that emerged to cover its lack of coverage and speed.
    I mean before 1893...sure. Where was UPS then?

    But back to this counterfactual. Are you saying there's something the USPS couldn't do?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #33
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, right because that comes from the theory - that these inequalities develop within society and are the cause of injustice. For example, Pol Pot says to kill all people with glasses...so? If I'm a guy with glasses I'm going to say "let's kill all guys named 'Pol' instead". What's the difference? Why did I end up in the killing fields and Pol Pot didn't? The unequal amount of power. Drastic in this case.
    And? The inequality of power relates to the effectiveness to implement a decision.

    The point we are discussing is that the decision was made socially (your definition of socialism). Thus, we have to include Pol Pot's killing fields into the list of things we've "done socially" right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I mean before 1893...sure. Where was UPS then?

    But back to this counterfactual. Are you saying there's something the USPS couldn't do?
    Uhhh, no. Right now. There are places in the US that USPS doesn't deliver to and never has. That is an area that is growing by the way as the USPS consolidates where you have to go to get your mail. PS those are areas that UPS and FEDEX generally do deliver to.

    The point in the counterfactual is that it is apparently something we don't need USPS to do. It would exist absent USPS' existence, and thus isn't a valid counterfactual.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #34
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And? The inequality of power relates to the effectiveness to implement a decision.
    Right. So what's the solution to that?

    ---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The point we are discussing is that the decision was made socially (your definition of socialism). Thus, we have to include Pol Pot's killing fields into the list of things we've "done socially" right?
    Yes, right.

    ---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Uhhh, no. Right now. There are places in the US that USPS doesn't deliver to and never has. That is an area that is growing by the way as the USPS consolidates where you have to go to get your mail. PS those are areas that UPS and FEDEX generally do deliver to.

    The point in the counterfactual is that it is apparently something we don't need USPS to do. It would exist absent USPS' existence, and thus isn't a valid counterfactual.
    That's a small exception and the two communities that do it by choice don't even count as not getting mail service.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #35
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, right.
    That kinda concedes the implied point of the thread a bit doesn't it? If this is such a good system that it gives us things like the Secret Service, we should also be aware that it exterminates entire races, creates systematic racism, oppresses gays (from your thread), impoverishes minorities, etc, etc.

    Of course, the less ideological of us might step back given this and think about whether your definition for socialism is the correct one (it isn't), especially given your quoting of Marx and Engels, who would have, quite vociferously, pilloried you for watering down their lives' works.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    That's a small exception and the two communities that do it by choice don't even count as not getting mail service.
    Challenge to support a claim.

    Please support that it is a "small exception"

    Then, after you support that claim, you can try to rationalize how it doesn't undercut your counterfactual. Remember, your counterfactual was that absent the USPS, we wouldn't be delivering to rural communities. You've offered not support that other companies don't deliver there (required) and we see that the USPS doesn't deliver to "many smaller towns and rural areas in the United States." ibid.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #36
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    That kinda concedes the implied point of the thread a bit doesn't it? If this is such a good system that it gives us things like the Secret Service, we should also be aware that it exterminates entire races, creates systematic racism, oppresses gays (from your thread), impoverishes minorities, etc, etc.

    Of course, the less ideological of us might step back given this and think about whether your definition for socialism is the correct one (it isn't), especially given your quoting of Marx and Engels, who would have, quite vociferously, pilloried you for watering down their lives' works.
    Did I say mine was the same as Marx and Engels?

    I also didn't say that socialism gives us those things, it seeks to eliminate them. True, Marx and Engels were not utopians.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #37
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Did I say mine was the same as Marx and Engels?
    No, but you referenced them when defending your position. That implies at least a vague connection with your position, a connection they wouldn't agree with.

    You've made no such argument that socialism seeks to eliminate the negative examples. Rather, you've conceded that the method humans have used to instigate those negative activities is the same as the one you were upholding that gave us the presumably good ones in the OP.

    Until you can distinguish something a bit more nuanced than "people deciding together" you won't be able to escape this connection. For every 'highway system" there is a anti-black eugenics program. These were all social activities.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #38
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Until you can distinguish something a bit more nuanced than "people deciding together" you won't be able to escape this connection. For every 'highway system" there is a anti-black eugenics program. These were all social activities.
    Right, and Marx and Engels saw socialism as alievating those ills of inequality, no?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #39
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, and Marx and Engels saw socialism as alievating those ills of inequality, no?
    Yes, but they didn't see socialism as you see socialism. They had a vastly, vastly different definition of that term than you did. And they also saw it as conducting ethnic cleansing, which was part of the movement of the proletariat towards a communist society, the elimination of the classes and groups of people who couldn't attain proper class consciousness.

    So even if you adopt a real definition of socialism rather than the wishy washy "we do things together" version, you're still on the hook for ethnic cleansing.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  21. #40
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Yes, but they didn't see socialism as you see socialism. They had a vastly, vastly different definition of that term than you did. And they also saw it as conducting ethnic cleansing, which was part of the movement of the proletariat towards a communist society, the elimination of the classes and groups of people who couldn't attain proper class consciousness.

    So even if you adopt a real definition of socialism rather than the wishy washy "we do things together" version, you're still on the hook for ethnic cleansing.
    Not if I'm somewhere on the continuum between revolutionaries and utopians.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Has technology improved our lives?
    By ArieMangat in forum Science and Technology
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: July 19th, 2014, 11:52 AM
  2. Replies: 28
    Last Post: September 11th, 2013, 01:35 PM
  3. Replies: 17
    Last Post: May 22nd, 2013, 04:46 AM
  4. Replies: 61
    Last Post: January 9th, 2012, 04:37 AM
  5. Valid Forms of Evidence (new improved)
    By Xanadu Moo in forum ODN Polls
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: April 11th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •