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  1. #41
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not if I'm somewhere on the continuum between revolutionaries and utopians.
    That doesn't really save you either. If both ends of the spectrum endorse ethnic cleansing, you don't really escape that by being in the middle. What's more, we know your position doesn't escape that because the definition you offerred would cover things like ethnic cleansings.


    Until you can distinguish something a bit more nuanced than "people deciding together" you won't be able to escape this connection.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    That doesn't really save you either. If both ends of the spectrum endorse ethnic cleansing
    Do they?

  3. #43
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Do they?
    See post 25 (http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post566305)

    Which brings me back to my original complaint about the use of the term socialism or social ownership in this thread. It is so broad as to be meaningless. This definition is so milk toast that we could pretty easily shoehorn capitalism into it. Capitalism is, after all, something that people do socially together. A definition that can fit everything from anarcho-capitalism, to fascism and socialism into it is a meaningless definition.

    Its why socialism was never defined in the way you are using it here until recently. Its an attempt to coopt communalism and broaden it for popularity's sake.

    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.

    Your definition of socialism implicitly endorses ethnic cleansing since it is something we "do together. "
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #44
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    See post 25 (http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post566305)

    Which brings me back to my original complaint about the use of the term socialism or social ownership in this thread. It is so broad as to be meaningless. This definition is so milk toast that we could pretty easily shoehorn capitalism into it. Capitalism is, after all, something that people do socially together. A definition that can fit everything from anarcho-capitalism, to fascism and socialism into it is a meaningless definition.

    Its why socialism was never defined in the way you are using it here until recently. Its an attempt to coopt communalism and broaden it for popularity's sake.

    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.

    Your definition of socialism implicitly endorses ethnic cleansing since it is something we "do together. "
    OK, my definition aside I was asking if the theorists endorse anywhere ethnic cleansing as a part of socialism. My ideas, as we know, are goofy at best on a good day.

  5. #45
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    OK, my definition aside I was asking if the theorists endorse anywhere ethnic cleansing as a part of socialism. My ideas, as we know, are goofy at best on a good day.
    Sure, in Neue Rheinische Zeitungboth, both Engels and Marx referred to groups in Europe that could not (rather than would not) achieve class consciousness. Groups like the Magyars, the Slavs, and the Poles (to name a few) were too steeped in their ethnic identity to ever realize they were part of the Proletariat. Part of the eventual move from Socialism to Communism in their minds would be the extermination of those groups and any other group not able to make the mental leap to class consciousness. This was not an isolated part of the argument. You can follow it into the Communist Manifesto. There is a period of revolution where there will be some violence of course, but once Socialism takes over and education begins those that are perpetually unable to accept the new dialectic are to be removed. Marx thought the English and the Germans would be the proper carriers of the Communist ideal rather than the Russians. He specifically ruled out groups lke the Magyars and Engels specifically argued that they should be exterminated during the revolutionary period to free up resources during the Socialist period.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #46
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Sure, in Neue Rheinische Zeitungboth, both Engels and Marx referred to groups in Europe that could not (rather than would not) achieve class consciousness. Groups like the Magyars, the Slavs, and the Poles (to name a few) were too steeped in their ethnic identity to ever realize they were part of the Proletariat. Part of the eventual move from Socialism to Communism in their minds would be the extermination of those groups and any other group not able to make the mental leap to class consciousness. This was not an isolated part of the argument. You can follow it into the Communist Manifesto. There is a period of revolution where there will be some violence of course, but once Socialism takes over and education begins those that are perpetually unable to accept the new dialectic are to be removed. Marx thought the English and the Germans would be the proper carriers of the Communist ideal rather than the Russians. He specifically ruled out groups lke the Magyars and Engels specifically argued that they should be exterminated during the revolutionary period to free up resources during the Socialist period.
    The movement from socialism to communism, right? But not during socialism, Engels favored the Magyars over the Czechs didn't he? And this doesn't rule out the Utopians.

  7. #47
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The movement from socialism to communism, right? But not during socialism, Engels favored the Magyars over the Czechs didn't he? And this doesn't rule out the Utopians.
    Well sort of, Socialism itself is a transitional state. So, during Socialism that process would occur. Because Socialism is the transitional state where all the bad things would happen as a society moved from capitalism to communism.

    Personally, I think he did, but as a matter of socialist policy he thought they were both unreformable I believe.

    You are correct that we could invoke the Utopians, like Manc used to like to do. The problem, imo, is that their own philosophy is incoherent. Utopians aren't always too much different from Peter Pan, everything is possible if only you wish hard enough.

    But I don't think we can let the Utopians off with such a light review. The utopians, particularly the Fabians, also strongly believed in Eugenics as a method for attaining the class conscious man. The leading eugenicists (who were in the US at this early stage) were all Fabian socialists. The ideas of eugenics, a "living wage" (not the same idea we use today), planned economies, etc. all come from the same set of intellectual assumptions that if we just put the right people in charge with the right power they can remake everyone into a perfect society. That often involves removing some bad elements. Societal Tumors as Margeret Sanger used to call them, the poor, blacks, Jews, the disabled, etc needed to be culled from society first. It wasn't properly an "ethnic" cleansing or genocide of a race because of the race specifically, but the effect is essentially the same.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #48
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    But I don't think we can let the Utopians off with such a light review. The utopians, particularly the Fabians, also strongly believed in Eugenics as a method for attaining the class conscious man. The leading eugenicists (who were in the US at this early stage) were all Fabian socialists.
    I won't apologize for what they advocated, state-sponsored and cruel policies. With the possible tools available it may have seemed expeditious to deal with a societal problem that way. But I will defend eugenics in the modern era, which is on a personal level, as being beneficial and able to level class divisions.

  9. #49
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But I will defend eugenics in the modern era, which is on a personal level, as being beneficial and able to level class divisions.
    I would be surprised if you didn't to be honest. It is at least intellectually consistent to argue that (based on the same kind of intellectual assumptions that lead to Fabian socialism) eugenics is a necessary social tool. Once we are willing to label some as undesirable, it isn't a far leap to wanting to remove them.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  10. #50
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I would be surprised if you didn't to be honest. It is at least intellectually consistent to argue that (based on the same kind of intellectual assumptions that lead to Fabian socialism) eugenics is a necessary social tool. Once we are willing to label some as undesirable, it isn't a far leap to wanting to remove them.
    As long as it isn't forced, yes, and that is where the problem with the original premise lies. I'd certainly start with the gene for baldness in any of my offspring.

  11. #51
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    As long as it isn't forced, yes, and that is where the problem with the original premise lies. I'd certainly start with the gene for baldness in any of my offspring.
    I think it depends on how you define "forced" I'm sure the person being sterilized would call it "forced," but then, historically the solution has been to appeal to the "will of the people" or the "good of society" and eventually, to deny the personhood of the one being forced.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  12. #52
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think it depends on how you define "forced" I'm sure the person being sterilized would call it "forced," but then, historically the solution has been to appeal to the "will of the people" or the "good of society" and eventually, to deny the personhood of the one being forced.
    Right, but they couldn't foresee advances in genetics (or changes in culture for that matter) that would allow personal choices to alleviate inequalities that cause class distinctions. So, of course, their solution was radical and state based.

  13. #53
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, but they couldn't foresee advances in genetics (or changes in culture for that matter) that would allow personal choices to alleviate inequalities that cause class distinctions. So, of course, their solution was radical and state based.
    I'm not sure they couldn't. Have you read any of Margret Sanger's work? That was exactly what she was trying to do, she wanted to reduce inequality and class distinction by removing those who couldn't "earn a living wage" (IE a wage that shows they are a net contributor to society) including those she (and science at the time) saw as genetically inferior including black and jews and gays.

    Presuming, for a moment, that homosexuality is genetically based (which seems to be only slightly the case), would you be ok with people or groups modifying unborn children to eliminate homosexuality in the culture?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #54
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I'm not sure they couldn't. Have you read any of Margret Sanger's work? That was exactly what she was trying to do, she wanted to reduce inequality and class distinction by removing those who couldn't "earn a living wage" (IE a wage that shows they are a net contributor to society) including those she (and science at the time) saw as genetically inferior including black and jews and gays.

    Presuming, for a moment, that homosexuality is genetically based (which seems to be only slightly the case), would you be ok with people or groups modifying unborn children to eliminate homosexuality in the culture?
    Not as a forced dictate by the state. But on a personal level? Parents making choices for their children? I doubt we'll be able to stop that. Like I said, male pattern baldness would be eradicated from my offspring's genes for sure.

    The state could be there as a guide helping eradicate terrible diseases, for example, but genetics has progressed and blacks, jews, and homosexuals aren't genetically inferior. Rather, those issues can be handled culturally.

    I've only read condensed versions of Sanger and I loosely remember where they were coming from. Perhaps they were unwilling to wait for us to have cultural progress and believed a type of "jump start" was required in the form of state dictates. But history has shown that it's not, that we can get over ourselves.

  15. #55
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not as a forced dictate by the state.
    Why not? If it was a decision reached through democratic consensus, for example?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    but genetics has progressed and blacks, jews, and homosexuals aren't genetically inferior. Rather, those issues can be handled culturally.
    "Inferior" is a subjective term, not an empirical one. If we handle them culturally, ie if we allow us to decide how to do them emergently as a group, what happens if that group decides they are inferior?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  16. #56
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Why not? If it was a decision reached through democratic consensus, for example?
    Maybe, I'm not sure. Do you have an example you are thinking about?

    ---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    "Inferior" is a subjective term, not an empirical one. If we handle them culturally, ie if we allow us to decide how to do them emergently as a group, what happens if that group decides they are inferior?
    Genetically inferior isn't empirical? If my group has a smaller brain than yours are we not empirically inferior?

    I don't understand the second part of your question.

  17. #57
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe, I'm not sure.
    So then a forced dictate by the state might be ok?



    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Genetically inferior isn't empirical? If my group has a smaller brain than yours are we not empirically inferior?
    No, of course not. Setting aside that we have smaller brains than other animals so pure size isn't the issue, why is intelligence or capacity for intelligence objectively better? It is certainly better if we insert our opinion that intelligence is better, but that isn't an objective standard right? You can't point to a rule of physics or chemistry that argues for the "betterness" of higher IQs.

    Let's say, its a hundred years from now and through a vaguery of post-post modernism or the result of a massive plague or whatever the culture here evolves into thinking that homosexuality is a drag on our society's progress. And as part of that they decide to use genetic engineering, or the more traditional abortion route to eliminate homosexuals. Are you ok with that because it was done through "cultural evolution" or "as a thing we are doing together?"
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  18. #58
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    So then a forced dictate by the state might be ok?
    I'm not sure. I can't think of an example serious enough to warrant a state dictate. Like I said, perhaps a terrible disease. But then the state could act as a guide in that case and suggest the remedy. Only the most disturbed wouldn't follow such a guide willingly.

    ---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    No, of course not. Setting aside that we have smaller brains than other animals so pure size isn't the issue, why is intelligence or capacity for intelligence objectively better? It is certainly better if we insert our opinion that intelligence is better, but that isn't an objective standard right? You can't point to a rule of physics or chemistry that argues for the "betterness" of higher IQs.
    Hmm, right, I think that's right. But were talking about the use of eugenics to level class distinctions by removing disadvantages. There is a difference in competitiveness between a person with 130 IQ as opposed to 75 IQ.

  19. #59
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure. I can't think of an example serious enough to warrant a state dictate.
    But you allow for the possibility. There doesn't seem to be a limiting principle in your philosophy that would prevent it, right? We would just have to be lucky enough for reality to not have a good imagination.

    Let's take the example I set out. In 150 years, a major plague kills off 1/3 of humanity. The sudden drop in the standard of living creates a cultural backlash that values procreation as a moral good. This culture decides that homosexuality is counter-productive to that moral value and so a legal regime is instituted that forces genetic testing of babies before they are born and aborts those with a 'gay predilection.'


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Hmm, right, I think that's right. But were talking about the use of eugenics to level class distinctions by removing disadvantages. There is a difference in competitiveness between a person with 130 IQ as opposed to 75 IQ.
    Depends on what you are asking them to do. Higher IQs tend to perform certain tasks more poorly, have higher ADHD diagnoses (along with other attention related disorders) and very often struggle with more simplistic solutions. There are a couple of good examples of ridiculously smart people being unable to solve a computer science problem because the solution wasn't an overly complex one, and they essentially were only applying far more sophisticated solutions to a rudimentary problem.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  20. #60
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    But you allow for the possibility. There doesn't seem to be a limiting principle in your philosophy that would prevent it, right? We would just have to be lucky enough for reality to not have a good imagination.

    Let's take the example I set out. In 150 years, a major plague kills off 1/3 of humanity. The sudden drop in the standard of living creates a cultural backlash that values procreation as a moral good. This culture decides that homosexuality is counter-productive to that moral value and so a legal regime is instituted that forces genetic testing of babies before they are born and aborts those with a 'gay predilection.'
    Sure, I suppose I could see that happening. Kind of a "Handmaid's Tale" type of thing. Why would homosexuals not be able to procreate?

    A more interesting question is what would happen if that technology was available in our current society and people were choosing to edit out the gay. Let's say for religious reasons - or maybe even because of the statistics showing homosexuals are more likely to have problems. Would we allow that? I don't think we could stop it any more that we can stop people from having ridiculous amounts of plastic surgery.

    ---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Depends on what you are asking them to do. Higher IQs tend to perform certain tasks more poorly, have higher ADHD diagnoses (along with other attention related disorders) and very often struggle with more simplistic solutions. There are a couple of good examples of ridiculously smart people being unable to solve a computer science problem because the solution wasn't an overly complex one, and they essentially were only applying far more sophisticated solutions to a rudimentary problem.
    Perhaps, but we're talking about what a certain type of parent might go through to give their child the highest advantage, whatever that might mean. So they are going to protest when their children have to drink lead contaminated water and are going to bribe whoever they can to get them into high level colleges. Sure, there will always be those that just go the "natural" way either because they can't or don't care.

    The question would be should the state be involved in maybe guiding their decision - a minimum IQ for example. Would the state have an interest in increasing overall intelligence?

 

 
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