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  1. #1
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    75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    What do you think? This comes from here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...proved-America



    1. The Military/Defense - The United States military is the largest and most funded socialist program in the world. It operates thanks to our taxpayer dollars and protects the country as a whole. From the richest citizens to the homeless who sleep under the bridge. We are all protected by our military whether we pay taxes or not. This is complete socialism.

    2. Highways/Roads - Those roads and highways you drive on every single day are completely taxpayer funded. Your tax dollars are used to maintain, expand, and preserve our highways and roads for every one's use. President Eisenhower was inspired by Germany's autobahn and implemented the idea right here in America. That's right, a republican president created our taxpayer funded, national highway system. This was a different time, before the republican party came down with a vicious case of rabies that never went away.

    3. Public Libraries - Yes. That place where you go to check out books from conservative authors telling you how horrible socialism is, is in fact socialism. Libraries are taxpayer funded. You pay a few bucks to get a library card and you can read books for free for the rest of your life.

    4. Police - Ever had a situation where you had to call the police? Then you have used a taxpayer funded socialist program. Anyone can call the police whether they pay taxes or not. They are there to protect and serve the community, not individuals. This is complete socialism on a state level, but still socialism all the same. Would you rather have to swipe your credit card before the police will help you?

    5. Fire Dept. - Hopefully you have never had a fire in your home. But if you have, you probably called your local taxpayer-funded fire department to put the fire out. Like police, this is state socialism. You tax dollars are used to rescue your entire community in case of a fire. It use to be set up where you would pay a fee every month to the fire dept. for their service. If you didn't pay, they let your house burn down. Sadly, a man from Tennessee had this exact situation happen to him in 2011 because he didn't pay his $75.00 fee. I guess that small town in Tennessee would rather let people's houses burn down that resort to evil socialism. So don't take for granted the fact that you have a 24/7 fire dept. to put out your burning home thanks to socialism.

    6. Postal Service - Like having mail delivered directly to your front door and paying next to nothing to send mail anywhere you want? Well it's all made possible by socialism.

    7. Student Loans and Grants - Did you go to College? If you did, you family might not have been rich enough to pay your way through. So you got your education anyway through student loans and grants from the federal government at taxpayer expense. Of course you have to pay back the loans, but if not the government, did you know anyone else who was going to lend you tens of thousands of dollars? Probably not. So the taxpayers lent you the money and you paid it back with slight interest. The government grants you accepted were gifts from the taxpayer and the federal government that you did not have to pay back. Socialism got you through school.

    8. Bridges - Along with our highways, our government used your taxpayer dollars to build bridges. This allows the public to travel across rivers without having to sail or swim.

    9. Garbage Collection - Like having your garbage collected once a week instead of having to drive it to the landfill yourself? Thank socialism.

    10. Public Landfills - Taxpayer dollars are used to have places to dump all of our garbage that is collected by taxpayer funded garbage men.

    11. War - That's right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it's biggest. Private companies don't attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.

    12. Farm Subsidies - Our government uses taxpayer funds to pay farmers and businesses to provide their income and keep them growing food for the public.

    13. CIA - The Central Intelligence Agency is vital to America's security. The CIA is completely taxpayer funded to protect the public from enemies.

    14. FBI - The Federal bureau of investigations is a taxpayer funded government agency.

    15. Congressional Health Care - As Republicans in congress warn us of the evils of government-run health care, most of them are covered by taxpayer-funded government-run health care. You literally pay for their health care while they tell you that paying for your neighbors health care through a public option or single-payer system is socialism. They are 100% correct, it is socialism. They're just not telling you that they like their socialist health care, they just don't think you should have it. They are afraid you might like it better than the private insurance you have now that funds their campaigns and gives them money to push what is best for them and not for you. Members of congress are free to opt out of their evil government health care, but most of them don't because deep down, they like socialism too.

    16. Polio Vaccine - In the 1950's polio ravaged the United States. Until Dr. Jonas Salk invented a cure, finally ridding America of this terrible disease. Dr. Salk could have sold his vaccine in the free market and made millions and millions of dollars. Instead he gave it to the federal government to begin eradicating polio. He said that he made plenty of money as a scientist and felt it was too important to try and profit from or create a business around.

    17. EPA - Republicans hate this taxpayer-funded government program because they have the nerve to tell corporations that they may have to follow environmental rules ad regulations for the greater good of the earth and the people who live on it. But if you don't like breathing mercury, drinking dirty water, and breathing in chemicals, you should like this example of socialism working for the people.

    18. Social Security - You pay a tax to help ensure that our grandparents and senior citizens of America have money to live off of when they are retired or too elderly to work. I love hearing rich people bitch about this one because the truth is that they do not pay a social security tax, like most payroll taxes. This little piece of socialism helps prevent our senior citizens from sinking into poverty and starving to death.

    19. Museums - Many museums are privately owned by organizations and groups, but many are also taxpayer-funded state, national, and federal museums.

    20. Public Schools - Can't afford to send your children to an expensive private school? Thanks to socialism and government, you child can still get an education. Public education has been under attack for decades in this country by the radical right because public schools don't teach Christianity to your children and it enables people like Barack Obama to work hard, gain scholarships, and eventually become President of the United States.

    21. Jail/Prison System - Many murders and criminals are behind bars right now and not out on the streets because of our taxpayer-funded, federal and state run jails and prisons. Taxpayer money is collected and used to help protect all of society from murders, molesters, rapist, etc. I know there's a lot of disagreement and controversy about how to handle our prison system, but I think we can all agree that serial killers should not be freed into society. There are also many private prisons in the United States. However, they have a higher escape rate than their socialist counterpart. Besides, don't you see the bad incentives in having a private prison system that profits from having people in prison? Since a business's top goal is to make more money than the year before, the only feasible agenda would be to get everyone in prison.

    22. Corporate/Business Subsidies - This is the type of socialism that is acceptable in the Republican party. You tax dollars are given to big corporations to do things they should be doing anyway out of morals and ethics. Like not sending jobs overseas and hiring people. Wouldn't you like a nice big check just for not breaking the law? To be fair though, many businesses do earn their subsidies by advancing green technology and practice, donating to charity, helping communities, etc. They aren't all bad. People just get mad when big billionaire oil companies get billions of their taxpayer dollars while they're paying $4 at the pump. For the corporations that don't earn their subsidies other than donating to their very own political party, it's merely welfare. Though however you look at it, it is socialism.

    23. Veteran's (VA) Health Care - Our soldiers bravely go to foreign countries and risk their lives at the request of their government and the American people. For those who survive, we as a country feel committed and obligated to ensure that they have everything they need for the rest of their lives for their service to us in which we could never fully repay. So we the taxpayers fund their health care in a government-run single-payer system for veterans. Many soldiers return with mental and/or physical health issues that would cost them thousands in a private health care plan. Socialism funds the military, the overall war, and also takes care of our troops when they return home.

    24. Public Parks - Like going to the park on a sunny day? Just being able to walk right in, or at the worse pay a small fee? This is once again the work of socialism. If it were private, it wouldn't be a park, it would be someones back yard. That small or non-existent fee will turn into a $15 fee faster than you can say "No Trespassing".

    25. All Elected Government Officials - From the Supreme Court, to the President of the United States and all the way down to the County Dog Catcher, taxpayers pay their salary and provide the funding for them to do their job. We pay for every aspect of their job. So in a sense, I guess you could say our whole country is run on socialism.

    26. Food Stamps - Republicans fill with bitter contempt knowing that our government at the expense of the taxpayer is giving poor people money to buy food they couldn't otherwise afford. This, like welfare, is what the right thinks socialism is all about, along with mass murder. However, just like corporate welfare, welfare is socialism. I'll just end this one with a quick story. I have been down and out in periods of my life and sought assistance via food stamps. Even though I was what anyone would consider poor, I was not poor enough to get food stamps. Which means people who do get them, must really, really need them. As far as my personal experience, they weren't thrown around like candy the way the right would have you believe.

    27. Sewer System - Do you like having a sewer system to remove waste and prevent pollution and disease from seeping into our environment? Thank the taxpayers of America and the socialist system it operates in.

    28. Medicare - Medicare is one of the most liked socialist programs in America. Most of us don't mind paying taxes to provide our senior citizens with health care and hope the next generation will do the same for us. If you don't believe me, just look at almost any poll. Most seniors would not be able to afford private health care. So this form of socialism is a life saver for this nation's grandparents and senior citizens.

    29. Court System - Whether it's the murder trial of the century or a case in a small claims court, the taxpayers of America fully fund our courts and legal process. You may pay for your own lawyer, but the courtroom, judge, and jury is paid for through socialist means.

    30. Bird Flu Vaccine - You don't have bird flu right now and probably aren't worried about it because our federal government used taxpayer funds to pump vaccines all over America.

    31. G.I. Bill - The G.I. bill allows veterans to pursue an education by using taxpayer dollars to help them pay for most of their schooling. It also helps them with loans, savings, and unemployment benefits.

    32. Hoover Dam - Remember when our country use to build things? Our government built the Hoover Dam using taxpayer funds. It is now a vital source of power for the west coast.

    33. State/City Zoos - American families have been going to the zoo for generations. A place where kids and adults can have fun seeing creatures and animals from all over the world and learn at the same time. Many zoos are ran by the state and/or city, using taxpayer funds to operate and even bring the animals to the zoo.

    34. IRS - I know, the IRS is about as popular and well liked in America as a hemorrhoid, but think about it. The IRS is the reason that we have anything. The IRS collects taxpayer funds for the federal government. The government then dispenses these funds to our military, states, and social programs. If there is no one collecting taxes, no one will pay them. If no one pays taxes, our country shuts down. Without money to operate, nothing operates. This may sound like a good thing to some radical republicans, but for those of us with sense, we know this means anarchy in the USA. The IRS gets a bad rap because if you don't pay your taxes or owe them money, they can be ruthless. Like everything else, the IRS is not perfect, but without them we literally have no country or no means to run it.

    35. Free Lunch Program - Some children are living in poverty by no fault of their own. I'm not saying it is even their parents fault, but you surely cannot blame a child for the situation they are born into. In most if not all states, there are programs where children who live in poor households can receive school lunch for free. The taxpayers of the state pay for this. Sounds like socialism to me, and also the moral and Christian thing to do.

    36. The Pentagon - Our defense system in America is a socialist system from top to bottom. We as taxpayers fund the pentagon completely.

    37. Medicaid - Our government uses taxpayer funds to provide health care for low-income people. Republicans, the compassionate Christians that they are, absolutely hate this program. What they fail to understand is that when people can't afford to pay their outrageous medical bills, they don't. This bill does not disappear. The loss that the insurance company, doctor's office, or hospital takes gets passed down to everyone else. So covering people and giving them a low-income option reduces costs for them and everyone else. This is the main argument behind a health care mandate. It's not to force you to buy health care out of cruelty. If everyone is covered, costs drop for everyone. If you have no compassion for the uninsured, you can at least understand the rational in a selfish sense.

    38. FDA - The Food and Drug Administration is far from perfect. It is infested with corporate corruption and they have been wrong many, many times. Countless times they have approved things that they later have to apologize for and have banned things that would have helped people. However, they have also stopped many harmful foods and products from being sold to the public and protect us everyday from poisons being disguised as products. While not perfect, they are needed to prevent harmful food and drugs from being sold to you and you family. Without them, corporations can send whatever they want to your supermarkets and drug stores without any testing or evaluation. I don't mind my taxes going towards a middle man to inspect the safety of the products we are being sold everyday.

    39. Health Care for 9/11 Rescue Workers - After beating back GOP obstruction, Democrats finally passed a bill last year to allow government to help 9/11 rescue worker's with their health care after many came down with horrible lung diseases from the toxins they breathed in rescuing people from smoldering buildings. These brave citizens risked their lives and health to help complete strangers. They deserve more, but covering their health care is a good start.

    40. Swine Flu Vaccine - Do you have swine flu right now? Then thank government and the socialist structure.

    41. Disability Insurance (SSDI) - For those who are disabled and cannot work, our government provides an income for them via taxpayer dollars as opposed to the other option of letting them starve to death.

    42. Town/State Run Beaches - Like going to the beach? Like it when the beach is clean and safe? Like having lifeguards on staff in case of an emergency? Then once again, thank the taxpayers and the socialist structure that makes it all possible.

    43. Corporate Bailouts/Welfare - The whole point of this post is to prove that we ALL use, benefit from, and like socialism. This example is a form of socialism that the republicans not only like, but fight tooth and nail for. They don't like it when socialism is used for working/poor people, but when it's for millionaires and their corporate donors, socialism becomes as American as apple pie. The middle/working class who are the majority of taxpayers pay for welfare for corporations and people who have more money than all of us combined. When our government bails out a bank or gives a subsidy to a billion dollar corporation, you are paying for it.

    44. State Construction - Ever see those construction workers in your town fixing potholes, erecting buildings, repaving highways and roads, and fixing things all over town? They themselves and the work they do is taxpayer-funded state socialism.

    45. Unemployment Insurance - All your working life, you pay payroll taxes. Some of these taxes go toward a program that temporarily provides for people who lost their jobs until they can find another one. You pay for others, others pay for you. Especially these days, you never know when you might lose your job. You may need temporary assistance until you get back on your feet. The government recognizes this. UI also keeps the economy moving in times of recession because people still have some money in their pockets to buy goods and promote demand.

    46. City/Metro Buses - If you lack transportation, you can catch a city bus. Taxpayer funds and the fee you pay to take the bus make it possible for millions of people to go to work.
    47. WIC - WIC is a federally funded program to assist women, infants, and children. WIC helps low-income families by providing funding for nutrition, education, and health care for children.

    48. State Snow Removal - Even though sometimes it may take them longer than you like to get to your street, do you like having snow plow service to clear our roads and highways in the winter? This is a state socialist taxpayer-funded service.

    49. PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) - PBS operates on donations and government funding. The provide non-partisan news and information to the public. They are the home of Sesame Street, Masterpiece Theater, and The Antiques Roadshow. Surveys show that they are literally the most trusted name in news. I wonder how Fox feels about that?

    50. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - The CDC helps promote and enact the health and safety of the public along with helping to prevent and control illness and disease. The CDC is a government program that operates on taxpayer funding.

    51. Welfare - Is there anything the republicans hate more? Of course I'm talking about the welfare that goes to poor people. Corporate welfare is not only accepted in the republican Kabul, but it's mandatory that we give our tax dollars to billionaires and not question the logic of it. Though if you look at it realistically and not through the red scare glasses in which the right sees the world, welfare helps the economy. As I've said many times, when poor people have money in their pocket, they buy things made and sold by companies. This creates a demand. To keep up with demand, businesses must hire to keep up. If you yanked everyone who is on welfare off of it tomorrow, the economy would take a blow and lose jobs due to the down tick in consumer demand because we just took what little money they had away.

    52. Public Street Lighting - Like being able to see at night when you walk or drive? Thank Socialism.

    53. FEMA - If Disaster strikes, FEMA is there to help pick up the pieces. As a part of homeland security and an agency of the federal government, they use taxpayer dollars to help cities, states, and towns recover and rebuild. I don't know to many private companies that could assist in disaster relief and ask nothing in return. Thank God for socialism.

    54. Public Defenders - Ever been in trouble and couldn't afford a lawyer? Well the taxpayers and the government make sure you still get representation.

    55. S-CHIP (State Children's Health Insurance Program) - S-CHIP is a program that matches funds to states for health insurance for children in families that cannot afford insurance but make too much to qualify for Medicaid. Your tax dollars go towards covering uninsured children, is that so wrong?

    56. Amtrak - Amtrak transports tens of millions of passengers a year in 46 states and three Canadian Providences. It is owned by the federal government and your tax dollars are used to fund it. All aboard!!

    57. NPR - National Public Radio operates on private and federal funding along with public donations. NPR has been one of the most trusted news sources in America for over 40 years.

    58. The Department of Homeland Security - Created after the terrorist attacks on 9/11, this heavily federally funded department of the U.S. government helps protect us from future terrorist attacks. This is the third largest department within the United States government.

    59. OSHA - Do you have a safe and healthy workplace that provides training, outreach, education, and assistance? Thank OSHA! Brought to you by the taxpayers of America and socialism.

    60. State and National Monuments - The Lincoln Memorial. Mount Rushmore. The D.C. National Mall. All brought to you and maintained with your tax dollars. Socialism is patriotic?

    61. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) - The USDA enforces regulations on the farming, agriculture, and food industries to ensure food safety, natural resources, and hunger worldwide and in the United States. Your tax dollars are used to help keep what you are eating safe and even feed those who are not eating.

    62. Government Scholarships - if you work hard in school and show true potential, our government will give you a scholarship towards college so you can advance your education. Your tax dollars have been used to send future doctors, lawyers, scientists, and even presidents of the United States to college.

    63. Department of Health and Human Service - The overall goal of HHS is to promote, implement, and ensure the health of the American people. Your tax dollars are used to do this. Government looking out for the well being of it's people, imagine that!
    64. Census Bureau - Every ten years, our government collects data about our people and economy, to better serve and represent us. From the forms that are sent to your home for you to fill out and send back in and to the census worker who shows up and kindly asks you to fill out the form if you don't send it in, all taxpayer funded socialism. The information collected is used to better understand the economic situation and population in your area. Not to enslave you in a FEMA camp.

    65. Department of Energy - This taxpayer funded cabinet of the federal government oversees nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors, energy conservation, radioactive waste disposal, and energy production. To those of you who care about our environment and would rather not witness a nuclear holocaust might consider this money well spent.

    66. Customs and Border Protection - the CBP is the largest law enforcement agency in America. This is big government that republicans actually do like because they don't like Mexicans immigrating to our country like our ancestors did. However, this taxpayer funded, socialist agency of the federal government regulates trade, imports, and immigration.

    67. Department of Education - This cabinet of the federal government is actually the smallest. They administer and oversee federal assistance to education. They also collect data and enforce federal laws and regulations involving education. Even though the right thinks that this department is indoctrinating your children, they actually have no control over curriculum or standards.

    68. Secret Service - Your tax dollars are used to provide highly-trained, skilled professional bodyguards to protect the President of the United States.

    69. Peace Corps - The Peace Corps is a volunteer program run by the government that helps people outside of the US to understand our culture as well as helping us learn about other cultures. However they are more well known for their work with economic and social development in less-fortunate countries. Sounds very Christian for being a socialist program, huh?

    70. Department of Justice - The DOJ is responsible for enforcing the law. Socialism keeps our civilization intact.

    71. National Weather Service - Like knowing when a storm, tornado, earthquake, or snow is coming? Socialism makes this possible and available to everyone.

    72. The White House - Our taxpayer dollars through a socialist means pays for the house that the president and his family live in during a presidents time in office.

    73. Government - Like it or not, our country would not be a country without a government. Every single day, government on state and local levels serve us in ways we simply take for granted. Government as an entity operates and functions on our tax dollars through a socialist structured funding system. From the military down to the county dog catcher, socialism turns the wheels that make our society function.

    74. Law - Laws and rules make our democracy possible. Remove these laws and you have sheer anarchy. Laws do not appear out of thin air. To have law, you need a government. You need elected lawmakers to make the laws and a government to implement and enforce them. Socialism is responsible for every law in this country. Without our government and lawmakers which exist thanks to socialism, there would be no laws. So the laws themselves, are enforced and implemented thanks to socialism.

    75. Civilization - As an American citizen, you enjoy freedoms that many in other countries do not. Like anything else in this world, our government is not perfect, but you should be thankful everyday that your country has a government that feels an obligation to serve the people and protect their rights and freedoms. This is completely possible because of government, taxes, and socialism. Do you think the private sector would do a better job of governing our country? Do you think corporations would enact laws to help protect and serve you and your family or them and their profits? The reason you can read this blog and the reason I can write it whether you agree with it or not is because of the freedoms we have here in America enforced and protected through socialist means. Our entire civilization depends on us being a people united. Socialism is a glue that binds us together and makes possible the things that we could not accomplish as individuals working against each other.
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  2. #2
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Why are you giving socialism the credit for these benefits?
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    I think Cowboy is using the common vernacular a la Sanders of saying Socialism when what he means is redistribution or Social Democrats. I don't think any of these are truly socialist in nature.

    Cowboy, am I understanding your OP correctly?

    If so, the fact that these have provided benefits, doesn't mean they've improved America. You would need to propose a valid counterfactual in order to understand the Opportunity Cost.

    For example, if I said, "Wow that gremlin is a step up, car wise, for you." Noting that it's AC works 10% of the time and 8 tracks are cool isn't really an argument. Pointing out that you previously had a rusty bicycle would support that comment.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think Cowboy is using the common vernacular a la Sanders of saying Socialism when what he means is redistribution or Social Democrats. I don't think any of these are truly socialist in nature.
    I'm not sure if I understand you. I'd define socialism as the social ownership of the means of production (not necessarily government) where workers have some (not necessarily equal) control.

    I'd say the post office is a good example.

    ---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    If so, the fact that these have provided benefits, doesn't mean they've improved America. You would need to propose a valid counterfactual in order to understand the Opportunity Cost.

    For example, if I said, "Wow that gremlin is a step up, car wise, for you." Noting that it's AC works 10% of the time and 8 tracks are cool isn't really an argument. Pointing out that you previously had a rusty bicycle would support that comment.
    What's a stamp cost now? The idea that a folded up piece of paper can be transferred to the far-flung and often extremely rural areas of the country under the full protection of the federal government - with severe penalty for interference - is astounding.

    Daily and with regularity of time.

    It's my understanding that private companies use the USPS for "last mile" deliveries in areas where it is not economically feasible - so a private alternative would not exist or would cost more.

    Free rural delivery encouraged and developed the mail order business - a boom to companies like Sears and also a huge benefit to the railroads - which is arguably the predecessor to modern online shopping.

    The post office supports itself:

    12 Social responsibility. From facilitating the nation's largest one-day food drive to addressing dog bites, educating customers on consumer protection and delivering holiday cheer to those in need, the Postal Service supports communities.

    11 Veterans. The Postal Service employs more than 100,000 military veterans and is one of the largest employers of veterans in the country. Learn more

    10 All heart. The Postal Service is at the core of the $1.4 trillion U.S. mailing industry that employs more than 7.5 million people. Learn more

    9 Heroes. Postal employees regularly go beyond the call of duty to protect the lives of customers they serve, including older and disabled customers through the Carrier Alert Program. In fiscal year 2018, the Postal Service recognized 243 heroic employees.

    8 Retail giant. The Postal Service has the nation's largest retail network — bigger than McDonald’s, Starbucks and Walmart combined, domestically.

    7 Global business. The Postal Service processes and delivers 47 percent of the world's mail and is constantly innovating to make customer experiences better.

    6 Vehicles. The Postal Service has more than 232,000 vehicles, one of the largest civilian fleets in the world. New next-generation vehicles will have improved ergonomics, safety features, fuel efficiency and design flexibility.

    5 Competition and collaboration. The Postal Service both competes and collaborates with the private sector. UPS and FedEx pay the Postal Service to deliver hundreds of millions of their ground packages, and USPS pays UPS and FedEx for air transportation.

    4 Affordability. For 55 cents, anyone can send a letter, regardless of geographic location, to anywhere in the United States.

    3 Dependable. The Postal Service is the only organization in the country that has the resources, network infrastructure and logistical capability to regularly deliver to every residential and business address in the nation.

    2 Security. U.S. Mail is protected by more than 200 federal laws enforced by the Postal Inspection Service, one of the nation's oldest law enforcement agencies.

    And most importantly...

    1 Zero tax dollars used. The Postal Service receives NO tax dollars for operating expenses and relies on the sale of postage, products and services to fund its operations.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Actually, none of this stuff is due to socialism.
    As none of it was created by the gov.

    It's like giving socialism credit for Mozart, because it is publicly owned. (IE no private patents)
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    I think the list plays fast and loose with the term Socialism. That said so do the critics of progressive policy so I suppose fair is fair.

    I myself use the military and also American family life to illustrate that there is a time and place for socialist principles and mechanics, even in a capitalist market economy.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Actually, none of this stuff is due to socialism.
    As none of it was created by the gov.
    Doesn't have to be. But that doesn't mean the government hasn't created things...which it has.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    @ cowboy, yes.. it does have to be. Because the thread is about things that SOCIALISM has done.

    The gov =\= socialism.
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ cowboy, yes.. it does have to be. Because the thread is about things that SOCIALISM has done.

    The gov =\= socialism.
    No, it's about how socialism improved America.

    But I guess it depends on how you define 'create'. The government certainly created the postal system...the USPS.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    And no one delivered mail ever before the gov got the bright idea.

    Even so, the post office is not socialism or a socialist institution.
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    The way I separate capitalism and socialism is based on where the money is coming from the funds the institution or business.

    If it's coming from people or private institutions (such as businesses), then it's capitalist.

    If it's coming from the government via taxpayer funds, then it's socialist.

    For example,

    When a TV is purchased, it is very consistently paid for by an individual or perhaps a private company so TVs are attained via Capitalism.

    Fire Department Service is paid for by tax dollars and therefore is socialism.

    And IMO, whether something should be attained via Capitalism or Socialism comes down to one central question.

    Should everyone is the society be guaranteed it?

    If no, then Capitalism and if yes, then socialism.

    And when it comes to TVs and Fire Service, we got it right.

    We should not guaranteed everyone a TV so it's fine if someone doesn't have because they haven't shelled out their own money for one. And we should guarantee everyone fire service so the fire department should be funded with tax dollars.

    And likewise I think we should have universal health care and some of the other proposals that Democratic Socialists desire because there are things, like healthcare, that everyone should be guaranteed and therefore should be taxpayer funded.

    I'm speaking on general principle. I'm sure there's some grey areas and complicated scenarios but in general, if everyone should be entitled to X, then X should be taxpayer funded. And if X is optional, then people should get it when they pay their one money for it.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And no one delivered mail ever before the gov got the bright idea.
    That's an obtuse characterization of 'create'. If I start a car company and produce a different make of car would you say I haven't created anything because I didn't invent the car?

    "You didn't build that!"

    ---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Even so, the post office is not socialism or a socialist institution.
    Sure it is, just like the VA is.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The way I separate capitalism and socialism is based on where the money is coming from the funds the institution or business.

    If it's coming from people or private institutions (such as businesses), then it's capitalist.

    If it's coming from the government via taxpayer funds, then it's socialist.

    For example,

    When a TV is purchased, it is very consistently paid for by an individual or perhaps a private company so TVs are attained via Capitalism.

    Fire Department Service is paid for by tax dollars and therefore is socialism.

    And IMO, whether something should be attained via Capitalism or Socialism comes down to one central question.
    That is certainly one way of defining things.

    I think this ultimately fails to distinguish real socialism from non socialist gov. Because it makes all gov inherently socialist.
    So the American gov, is 100% a socialist gov, and so is the Ex soviet union.

    To me that seems to fail to distinguish the two.

    I would also look to where the money is coming from, but I would say it is about where the gov is getting the money from taxes.
    Is it getting it from free exchanges and free people? Then it is capitalist gov. Is it getting its taxes from people that it inherently employees because all the means of production are owned by the state? Then it is socialism.

    So for example the VA, where does the money come from to fund that so called "socialist good"? Why from capitalism type trades and economy. So the money to pay for the VA and thus the VA is a product of socialism. As it isn't privately run and it is money spent by the gov.. how it preforms is a product of the political system.

    Like wise, take china. Which once it allowed citizens to own land, created 300million millionaires. Is that a socialist/communist success? Hardly.

    So, there is nothing wrong with viewing it the way you have set it out, it just seems to have a kind of inherent evaluation bias.
    Is a dictatorship inherently a socialist gov? All the money goes to the gov, all the social programs are paid for by the dictator. So North Koria's tourist zone is a success of socialism. The parts that have light, are the success of socialism? That is what we have to conclude if we define gov as socialist by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    That's an obtuse characterization of 'create'. If I start a car company and produce a different make of car would you say I haven't created anything because I didn't invent the car?

    "You didn't build that!"
    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Sure it is, just like the VA is.
    Please see my comment to Mican.
    Gov =/= socialism.
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Please see my comment to Mican.
    Gov =/= socialism.
    I agree a government doesn't have to necessarily be socialist, we can have a plutocracy, oligarchy, authoritarian dictatorship, etc. All of which can have money coming from all different places - North Korea has a huge blackmarket that the government overlooks for its own benefit. I'm not sure about your point about where the money comes from. Could you explain it more?
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is certainly one way of defining things.

    I think this ultimately fails to distinguish real socialism from non socialist gov. Because it makes all gov inherently socialist.
    I don't think so.

    My argument only covers the spending of money on the public. Theoretically, a government can not spend nothing on the "public good" and let the fire department be privately funded and only spend money on operating the government (such as paying legislators salary). That would be a government that is 0% socialist. So you are incorrect that my argument defines government as inherently socialist.

    Let me ask, do you disagree that the government funding health care at 100% is socialist? It's certainly not Capitalist. So what is fully-funding health care by the government via taxpayer money to be defined as if not socialist?



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would also look to where the money is coming from, but I would say it is about where the gov is getting the money from taxes.
    Is it getting it from free exchanges and free people? Then it is capitalist gov. Is it getting its taxes from people that it inherently employees because all the means of production are owned by the state? Then it is socialism.
    When I purchase something in a capitalist fashion (like a TV), then I VOLUNTARILY give the store some money to get a TV. But if the money is taken from me against my will and spent in a fashion that I have no direct say over, I would not call that capitalism. And while I don't object to the government taking some of my money to fund the fire department, it is definitely not Capitalism.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So for example the VA, where does the money come from to fund that so called "socialist good"? Why from capitalism type trades and economy. So the money to pay for the VA and thus the VA is a product of socialism. As it isn't privately run and it is money spent by the gov.. how it preforms is a product of the political system.

    Like wise, take china. Which once it allowed citizens to own land, created 300million millionaires. Is that a socialist/communist success? Hardly.
    Nor would my definition of socialism define the government granting the right to own land as socialism so it's not a rebuttal to my position.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So, there is nothing wrong with viewing it the way you have set it out, it just seems to have a kind of inherent evaluation bias.
    Is a dictatorship inherently a socialist gov? All the money goes to the gov, all the social programs are paid for by the dictator.
    While that would be an example of a socialist dictatorship, that hypothetical example does not show that socialism is inherently dictatorial nor that dictators must practice complete socialism.

    Nor does my defining of socialism/capitalism argue that socialism is inherently good or bad.

    IMO, a good society is one that uses Capitalism for the things that Capitalism is good and uses Socialism for the things that Socialism is good at and therefore a society should mix the two (which is what the Western World seems to have done).

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    @ mican . Sorry on phone so short quotes of you if any.

    Gov.
    A gov that doesn't spend anything on the public.. I don't know what that is. I mean suppose the gov was just a guy that answers the phone to speak to other gov on behalf of the people. .. why isn't that a public good service? So money would be take to employ this person. And that would be 100 socialist.
    So I don't think your distinction can logically exist and this isn't a valid destination.

    - health care as socialsim.
    Again just because the gov spends money on something doesn't make it socialism. I would say that for healthcare to be socialist the gov would have to outlaw private healthcare. Again. The money paying for it would come from capitalism still. So the gov isn't a socialist on. It is more tyrannical than our current one.. but not socialist.

    -- buying a tv-
    Your right it isn't capitalism, but that doesn't mean it is socialism. What it is is tyranny. Capitalism opperates in the absence of tryanny. Socialism opperates in the presence of tryanny. So a go. Become more orel less tryanical. When the gov takes the means of production from private citizens... Then it is socialist.

    - granting right to own land response.
    That was given with the assumption of gov \ socialism. So there is a bit of talking past the point.

    In fact I think the rest of your response doesn't really hit on the point of contention.
    That isnt a fault in your response or anything. It just means there is a point that needs to remain in focus.

    I contend that your definition means that all gov are inherently socialist.
    You reject that claim and I think I responded. Then we both sort of add other responsises with thosr assumption.

    That seem right to you?

    ---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------

    @ mican . Sorry on phone so short quotes of you if any.

    Gov.
    A gov that doesn't spend anything on the public.. I don't know what that is. I mean suppose the gov was just a guy that answers the phone to speak to other gov on behalf of the people. .. why isn't that a public good service? So money would be take to employ this person. And that would be 100 socialist.
    So I don't think your distinction can logically exist and this isn't a valid destination.

    - health care as socialsim.
    Again just because the gov spends money on something doesn't make it socialism. I would say that for healthcare to be socialist the gov would have to outlaw private healthcare. Again. The money paying for it would come from capitalism still. So the gov isn't a socialist on. It is more tyrannical than our current one.. but not socialist.

    -- buying a tv-
    Your right it isn't capitalism, but that doesn't mean it is socialism. What it is is tyranny. Capitalism opperates in the absence of tryanny. Socialism opperates in the presence of tryanny. So a go. Become more orel less tryanical. When the gov takes the means of production from private citizens... Then it is socialist.

    - granting right to own land response.
    That was given with the assumption of gov \ socialism. So there is a bit of talking past the point.

    In fact I think the rest of your response doesn't really hit on the point of contention.
    That isnt a fault in your response or anything. It just means there is a point that needs to remain in focus.

    I contend that your definition means that all gov are inherently socialist.
    You reject that claim and I think I responded. Then we both sort of add other responsises with thosr assumption.

    That seem right to you?
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    It seems that we are getting a bit hung up on definitions so let me provide the pertinent definitions.

    Capitalism:
    an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by [B]private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

    Socialism:

    a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    And "community as a whole" when put into national terms is governmental control.

    So basically the dividing line is whether it's a private owner or the state doing it. If it's a private owner, it's capitalism. If' it's by the state it's socialism


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Gov.
    A gov that doesn't spend anything on the public.. I don't know what that is. I mean suppose the gov was just a guy that answers the phone to speak to other gov on behalf of the people. .. why isn't that a public good service? So money would be take to employ this person. And that would be 100 socialist.
    So I don't think your distinction can logically exist and this isn't a valid destination.
    Incorrect.

    If the government ceased funding roads, schools, fire department, etc there would still be a congress and a President, etc that makes laws, enacts foreign policy and so on and likewise requires some public taxation to exist. So I have provided an entirely coherent example of a government that does not engage in sociaisml as I've defined it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    - health care as socialsim.
    Again just because the gov spends money on something doesn't make it socialism. I would say that for healthcare to be socialist the gov would have to outlaw private healthcare. Again. The money paying for it would come from capitalism still. So the gov isn't a socialist on. It is more tyrannical than our current one.. but not socialist.
    But going by the definition, a healthcare system that is run by the government is a socialist system. Even if there is a private health care system co-existing, the government run health care system is, by definition, socialist. It is a community-funded and regulated system.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    -- buying a tv-
    Your right it isn't capitalism, but that doesn't mean it is socialism. What it is is tyranny. Capitalism opperates in the absence of tryanny. Socialism opperates in the presence of tryanny. So a go. Become more orel less tryanical. When the gov takes the means of production from private citizens... Then it is socialist.
    I'm not sure what you are saying here. Of course buying and selling TVs in our current system IS capitalism and IMO an example of where we SHOULD have capitalism.

    The whole tyranny things seems like a separate debate. Socialism is certainly not inherently tyrannical nor is tyranny required to have socialism. For the record, tyranny is defined as a "cruel and oppressive" system of government. And I personally don't feel that socialized medicine is cruel or oppressive. In fact, every Western country besides the US has socialized medicine and I'm pretty sure the citizens are not complaining about their cruel and oppressive health care system.

    I think whether it's "tyranny" is a separate issue so I suggest this particular issue be dropped. But that's up to you. But if you are going to argue that it's tyranny, please use a dictionary definition of tyranny in your argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    - granting right to own land response.
    That was given with the assumption of gov \ socialism. So there is a bit of talking past the point.
    I reject the premise that the definition of socialism that I provide says that governments are inherently socialist so I guess this point is based on an unaccepted premise.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I contend that your definition means that all gov are inherently socialist.
    You reject that claim and I think I responded. Then we both sort of add other responsises with thosr assumption.

    That seem right to you?
    Yes. But again, I don't hold that all government is inherently socialist.

    For example, paying the legislature to make laws does not deliver goods and services to the people so it's inherently not socialist.

    If government was inherently socialist, there would be NOTHING that the government does that does not qualify as socialist. So even one example of the government doing something that is not socialist amply supports that the government is not inherently socialist.

    So your assessment of my position is incorrect and really should be dropped.
    Last edited by mican333; June 16th, 2019 at 01:53 PM.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    So your assessment of my position is incorrect and really should be dropped.
    Take this quote as a reference to your entire post.
    You have persuaded me.
    To serve man.

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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    So basically the dividing line is whether it's a private owner or the state doing it. If it's a private owner, it's capitalism. If' it's by the state it's socialism
    Are we sure about that? For example, a co-op can be privately owned.
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'm not sure if I understand you. I'd define socialism as the social ownership of the means of production (not necessarily government) where workers have some (not necessarily equal) control.
    Hmm, that is a pretty broad definition I think. I could fit Amazon into that definition since their ownership is public. When you say "social ownership" what exactly do you mean? Who comprises that group? What is their method of ownership? How are the individual wills of all the individuals on that group collected into guidance for management?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    What's a stamp cost now? The idea that a folded up piece of paper can be transferred to the far-flung and often extremely rural areas of the country under the full protection of the federal government - with severe penalty for interference - is astounding.
    No doubt, but this misses the point I'm making that it lacks a counterfactual. IE, you aren't comparing it to a relevant state of affairs that show it is a benefit. Take the Gremlin example. If you were to say "wow that Gremlin is a huge improvement in your transportation" it is relevant whether your former vehicle was a bicycle or a corvette.

    Likewise, the post office being able to send paper to all over the place is neat and all, but if you are arguing it is an improvement, you have to compare to what. Was it an improvement on 1780s American systems (maybe), is it an improvement on current delivery services (much harder to argue).

    Bottom line point, if you are going to maintain something is an improvement you have to also say it is an improvement on what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    If it's coming from the government via taxpayer funds, then it's socialist.
    That is a pretty wide definition of socialism though, which is my criticism of the Sanders crowd. It lumps together pure public ownership via the government with the government buying a hammer from Amazon. I think that definition incorrectly lumps essentially all states of affairs that aren't anarcho-capitalist into socialism.

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Are we sure about that? For example, a co-op can be privately owned.
    Yes, co-ops are still private institutions. You might call them communalism. (Please notice the "L"). Co-ops are just a different construction of a corporation really. Ownership is by the small group, who retain control over the means of production and the production itself and determine distribution by their internal set of rules.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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