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  1. #41
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not if I'm somewhere on the continuum between revolutionaries and utopians.
    That doesn't really save you either. If both ends of the spectrum endorse ethnic cleansing, you don't really escape that by being in the middle. What's more, we know your position doesn't escape that because the definition you offerred would cover things like ethnic cleansings.


    Until you can distinguish something a bit more nuanced than "people deciding together" you won't be able to escape this connection.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    That doesn't really save you either. If both ends of the spectrum endorse ethnic cleansing
    Do they?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #43
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Do they?
    See post 25 (http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post566305)

    Which brings me back to my original complaint about the use of the term socialism or social ownership in this thread. It is so broad as to be meaningless. This definition is so milk toast that we could pretty easily shoehorn capitalism into it. Capitalism is, after all, something that people do socially together. A definition that can fit everything from anarcho-capitalism, to fascism and socialism into it is a meaningless definition.

    Its why socialism was never defined in the way you are using it here until recently. Its an attempt to coopt communalism and broaden it for popularity's sake.

    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.

    Your definition of socialism implicitly endorses ethnic cleansing since it is something we "do together. "
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #44
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    See post 25 (http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post566305)

    Which brings me back to my original complaint about the use of the term socialism or social ownership in this thread. It is so broad as to be meaningless. This definition is so milk toast that we could pretty easily shoehorn capitalism into it. Capitalism is, after all, something that people do socially together. A definition that can fit everything from anarcho-capitalism, to fascism and socialism into it is a meaningless definition.

    Its why socialism was never defined in the way you are using it here until recently. Its an attempt to coopt communalism and broaden it for popularity's sake.

    If we adopt your definition for the sake of discussion, I'll grant you that it is responsible for all the things listed in the OP. But you also have to grant that it is responsible then for slavery, racism, war, poverty, murder, rape, eugenics, genocide, etc. After all, those are all activities that humans did socially...together.

    Your definition of socialism implicitly endorses ethnic cleansing since it is something we "do together. "
    OK, my definition aside I was asking if the theorists endorse anywhere ethnic cleansing as a part of socialism. My ideas, as we know, are goofy at best on a good day.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #45
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    OK, my definition aside I was asking if the theorists endorse anywhere ethnic cleansing as a part of socialism. My ideas, as we know, are goofy at best on a good day.
    Sure, in Neue Rheinische Zeitungboth, both Engels and Marx referred to groups in Europe that could not (rather than would not) achieve class consciousness. Groups like the Magyars, the Slavs, and the Poles (to name a few) were too steeped in their ethnic identity to ever realize they were part of the Proletariat. Part of the eventual move from Socialism to Communism in their minds would be the extermination of those groups and any other group not able to make the mental leap to class consciousness. This was not an isolated part of the argument. You can follow it into the Communist Manifesto. There is a period of revolution where there will be some violence of course, but once Socialism takes over and education begins those that are perpetually unable to accept the new dialectic are to be removed. Marx thought the English and the Germans would be the proper carriers of the Communist ideal rather than the Russians. He specifically ruled out groups lke the Magyars and Engels specifically argued that they should be exterminated during the revolutionary period to free up resources during the Socialist period.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #46
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Sure, in Neue Rheinische Zeitungboth, both Engels and Marx referred to groups in Europe that could not (rather than would not) achieve class consciousness. Groups like the Magyars, the Slavs, and the Poles (to name a few) were too steeped in their ethnic identity to ever realize they were part of the Proletariat. Part of the eventual move from Socialism to Communism in their minds would be the extermination of those groups and any other group not able to make the mental leap to class consciousness. This was not an isolated part of the argument. You can follow it into the Communist Manifesto. There is a period of revolution where there will be some violence of course, but once Socialism takes over and education begins those that are perpetually unable to accept the new dialectic are to be removed. Marx thought the English and the Germans would be the proper carriers of the Communist ideal rather than the Russians. He specifically ruled out groups lke the Magyars and Engels specifically argued that they should be exterminated during the revolutionary period to free up resources during the Socialist period.
    The movement from socialism to communism, right? But not during socialism, Engels favored the Magyars over the Czechs didn't he? And this doesn't rule out the Utopians.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #47
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    Re: 75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    The movement from socialism to communism, right? But not during socialism, Engels favored the Magyars over the Czechs didn't he? And this doesn't rule out the Utopians.
    Well sort of, Socialism itself is a transitional state. So, during Socialism that process would occur. Because Socialism is the transitional state where all the bad things would happen as a society moved from capitalism to communism.

    Personally, I think he did, but as a matter of socialist policy he thought they were both unreformable I believe.

    You are correct that we could invoke the Utopians, like Manc used to like to do. The problem, imo, is that their own philosophy is incoherent. Utopians aren't always too much different from Peter Pan, everything is possible if only you wish hard enough.

    But I don't think we can let the Utopians off with such a light review. The utopians, particularly the Fabians, also strongly believed in Eugenics as a method for attaining the class conscious man. The leading eugenicists (who were in the US at this early stage) were all Fabian socialists. The ideas of eugenics, a "living wage" (not the same idea we use today), planned economies, etc. all come from the same set of intellectual assumptions that if we just put the right people in charge with the right power they can remake everyone into a perfect society. That often involves removing some bad elements. Societal Tumors as Margeret Sanger used to call them, the poor, blacks, Jews, the disabled, etc needed to be culled from society first. It wasn't properly an "ethnic" cleansing or genocide of a race because of the race specifically, but the effect is essentially the same.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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