Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Black and White

  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Black and White

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/16...e-controversy/
    This story amused me. If you are not familiar with the story, the woman, Rachel Dolezal headed NAACP chapter in her town in Washington. The unusual part of the story is that she is white. She claims she identifies as black and indicated on her application to the NAACP and other places that she is a black woman. She wears makeup which makes her appear blackish and wears her hair in a style which is also blackish in style. I couldn't read it and think, gee, the woman is a nutjob.

    Now, there are contentions with some of her recollections about her childhood (i.e. when she began to identify as black). I don't want to get into the personal attacks on this woman. It'd be like hitting the broadside of a barn with a bazooka.

    I do believe, though, the heart of her issue is no laughing matter. She is, essentially, claiming to be black because she "feels" black. She is saying, to hell with genetics, ancestry, et al. and saying she is black because she is choosing to identify as black. Not a white woman who just really likes black men, smooth jazz, and over the top weaves. Nope. She IS black according to her. Even African-American. Why? Because she chooses to identify as such. And really, is this at all bat-**** crazy? We've allowed folks who wish to proclaim their own gender, regardless of their actual genes and genitalia. So, why can't someone reassign their skin pigmentation? We have decided to accommodate sex change surgery for prisoners and the courts have rules taxpayers must pay the bills. So, I say, why not tanning booths for women who wish to be more black? How about nose jobs for Middle Eastern folks who wish to identify as European. I don't see why not. Society created labels to help us understand people that are different from ourselves. Sometimes those labels get twisted and turned into something disturbing. Most often, they are used to make reasonable choices as we go about our lives. There are some labels we get to choose. If I want to change my name, my clothes, my zip code... fine. If I want to identify with a particular religion. Fine. However, when it comes to our genes and our actual ancestry, this isn't some subjective decision. This is who we are. Like it or not. I don't find this woman, Rachel, any more ridiculous than a transsexual who insists on being called "she" even though he has a penis. I'm sorry Ms. Dolezal doesn't like to be considered white. Some things just are. We cannot change them no matter how much we try to wish them away. Perhaps, her case should give us cause with the things like the gender fluidity movement. Can't we accept men like to appear as women without changing their gender? The alternative is that Ms. Dolezal is truly black. And the next time I apply for a job where they are actively employing minorities, maybe I'll just "become" black too.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. Thanks Squatch347, MindTrap028 thanked for this post
    Likes Lukecash12, evensaul liked this post
  3. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    I find it very interesting and it brings up good questions and makes people think about their identification and ideas of race etc...

    To my mind she should be black if she want's to be black. She's looking the part at least mostly and seems to be acting the part. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck why not treat it like a duck and call it a day?

    For me this is one of the best ways to break down old racial barriers and prejudices. I'm of the mind that I hope for the day that skin color while interesting aesthetically has little value meaning and we don't worry about who has more privilege or hardship etc based on skin color any more than eye color or other cosmetic biological differences. (all of which historically someone has decided are important to some degree) Being "black" ideally just means you have dark skin and that's it. Instead of course we have this huge host of traits and ideas all wrapped up in it.

    In a way its good, you have all this rich history and culture associated with skin color. But to me it all has a lot more value if it is not limited to actual skin color. Biology should not dictate cultural boundaries, that is the ultimate end of my own race politics. A black person should be able to be a full member of the "white" culture and a white person should be able to be a full member of a "black" culture. Clearly there is something to be said for living your whole life in that culture as opposed to being a transplant but everyone should make some effort to be welcoming I think and when you have earned your cultural cred then it should be given.

    I would critique a lot of minorities for insisting others be inclusive of them but them not being so inclusive of others in an effort to defend a kind of core identity and status.

    (An aside from my main point)
    Judging by all the lawsuits and such this lady has been involved with she seems like kind of a trouble maker / drama llama. I don't know her life, they may be justified but I smell that kind of person and such folks are not my favorite kind of people. But that's a personal judgement and not really interesting as an issue I think.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #3
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,141
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    I'll just "become" black too.
    I actually identify as a Meat Popsicle, but should I ever apply for a job set aside for a minority I think I will take your advice.

    I wonder if this will work with other things. Like, can I just put on my job app that I speak spanish? I mean, really badly I guess, being that I don't "know" a single word.
    Can I identify as bill gates kids when he dies, and have some claim to his vast fortunes? I mean if genetics and actual places of origin don't matter anymore.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  5. Likes Lukecash12 liked this post
  6. #4
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,326
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Well, there's black genetics and there's black culture.

    The first one is not a choice, of course.

    But if one wants to join the culture and likewise gains some acceptance from it, then I suppose it's alright. I'm sure there are white people that grow up in black areas and become an accepted part of the culture in their area.

  7. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,845
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I actually identify as a Meat Popsicle, but should I ever apply for a job set aside for a minority I think I will take your advice.

    I wonder if this will work with other things. Like, can I just put on my job app that I speak spanish? I mean, really badly I guess, being that I don't "know" a single word.
    Can I identify as bill gates kids when he dies, and have some claim to his vast fortunes? I mean if genetics and actual places of origin don't matter anymore.
    Race does not equal ethnicity.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  8. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, there's black genetics and there's black culture.

    The first one is not a choice, of course.

    But if one wants to join the culture and likewise gains some acceptance from it, then I suppose it's alright. I'm sure there are white people that grow up in black areas and become an accepted part of the culture in their area.
    Had she said she feel like she's a part of the black culture, I think that could be reasonable. However, claiming she is black and even African-American... that's different.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  9. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,845
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Had she said she feel like she's a part of the black culture, I think that could be reasonable. However, claiming she is black and even African-American... that's different.
    Race and ethnicity are different; while claims to a particular ethnicity might be falsified, it's less clear what would establish membership in a particular race.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  10. #8
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    This issue along with others that surface makes me support the idea that basic psychology should become a mandatory course for all schools and all grades. I think understanding basic psychology helps people open their minds and live more functional lives. The study of psychology also helps a person learn more about the human mind and how it functions and it generally can address identity issues when they surface.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  11. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Race and ethnicity are different; while claims to a particular ethnicity might be falsified, it's less clear what would establish membership in a particular race.
    I agree that race and ethnicity are different. However, I do believe they are both objective. One defined by geography and one defined by genes. I cannot claim African-American descent if my relatives do not come from Africa. It would be a lie. I cannot claim to be black if none of my relatives are black. I can claim to identify with black/African culture and can claim to fit in with that culture. However, making the general statement "I am black" would simply be misleading at best.

    ---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    This issue along with others that surface makes me support the idea that basic psychology should become a mandatory course for all schools and all grades. I think understanding basic psychology helps people open their minds and live more functional lives. The study of psychology also helps a person learn more about the human mind and how it functions and it generally can address identity issues when they surface.
    I think the undergraduate study of psychology has done more harm in the past 50 years than all the art majors ever produced through time put together. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Even more dangerous is the Google psychologist who thinks they can diagnose any mental issue because they did a Google search on it.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  12. #10
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think the undergraduate study of psychology has done more harm in the past 50 years than all the art majors ever produced through time put together.
    Why and how would you fix it?
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  13. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    I find it interesting (possibly disheartening) that this OP poses a lot of interesting questions but for the OP they are all basically rhetorical and for me they are all at the root of how I think about these issues. I have long known I'm in the extreme minority of thought on this.

    To me, where you were born, what your bloodline is, who your daddy was, what language you speak, what kind of cereal you like are all should be socially insignificant compared to what you do and how you act. They all matter for certain practical purposes but that should be where it ends.

    It seems to me that people are so defensive of their sense of identity that anyone else not like them who wants to share one of their labels is seen as some existential threat to be excluded at all costs lest the person's own identity be threatened. Its my music, my culture, my background, my, my, my. I'm a REAL Scotsman, he's a REAL black man, she is a REAL Lesbian. Not those FAKE ones that are different than I am!

    Because what the **** does it matter if a white woman wants to live as a black woman or a male track start wants to live as a female ex track star? Why on earth does anyone give two shits? I don't. I just want to be me and I want other people to be who they want to be. So long as you aren't coming at me with an axe or trying to take my stuff or call me names or likewise doing those things to someone else I don't care what you want to be. You don't need to be like me or act like me or be from my universe to be a gamer or a white boy or anything else you want to claim that I do as well. Welcome to the club I say.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I find it interesting (possibly disheartening) that this OP poses a lot of interesting questions but for the OP they are all basically rhetorical and for me they are all at the root of how I think about these issues. I have long known I'm in the extreme minority of thought on this.

    To me, where you were born, what your bloodline is, who your daddy was, what language you speak, what kind of cereal you like are all should be socially insignificant compared to what you do and how you act. They all matter for certain practical purposes but that should be where it ends.

    It seems to me that people are so defensive of their sense of identity that anyone else not like them who wants to share one of their labels is seen as some existential threat to be excluded at all costs lest the person's own identity be threatened. Its my music, my culture, my background, my, my, my. I'm a REAL Scotsman, he's a REAL black man, she is a REAL Lesbian. Not those FAKE ones that are different than I am!

    Because what the **** does it matter if a white woman wants to live as a black woman or a male track start wants to live as a female ex track star? Why on earth does anyone give two shits? I don't. I just want to be me and I want other people to be who they want to be. So long as you aren't coming at me with an axe or trying to take my stuff or call me names or likewise doing those things to someone else I don't care what you want to be. You don't need to be like me or act like me or be from my universe to be a gamer or a white boy or anything else you want to claim that I do as well. Welcome to the club I say.
    I guess if everyone lived in their own bubble, it wouldn't matter at all. What does it matter if someone identifies as male or woman? Isn't that your question? At the next Olympics, you tell me. When a marginal men's athlete demands to participate as a woman so he has a shot at medaling... what difference does it make? You throw in a bunch of superficial comparisons. You're right. The cereal a person eats is irrelevant. The language a person speaks, though, kinda sorta mattes... no? At least as a communication issue. Some of your comparisons are absurd. I am not expressing that a person is judged black or white based on their attitudes. I am saying someone's race is genetic. Does it matter if Rachel wants to be black? No. When she lies about it and puts it on a job application... then yes. It makes her a liar. The only way she isn't a liar is if society gives her a pass and decides that something decided by genetics is now a choice and that's, IMHO, an absurd path to follow.

    ---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why and how would you fix it?
    Off topic but since you asked...
    Undergrads shouldn't be exposed to the DSM, discussions of abnormal behavior, or behavior in general. Undergrads in psychology should be exposed to the history of psychology, the scientific method, how to read/understand/calculate statistics, biology of the brain, how to read/understand/analyze a scientific journal.

    It is not until grad school where students should be taught the behavioral topics of psychology.

    Students take a few undergrad psychology classes and come out thinking they are Freud. They start analyzing their friends. We need to figure out how to make behavioral psychology as inaccessible to the masses as cognitive psychology. This means it needs to be rooted more deeply in science and less in feeling. By making it less accessible, we can diminish the pop psychology culture where everyone thinks they understand human behavior because they read something on the internet. How many people go around thinking physics is easy? How many people go around spouting off their own theories on physics because they read this article on-line? Yet, when it comes to behavior... we get celebrities discussing how to raise kids and we get ignorant West Side mommies discussing how to best develop their little children based on the latest fad. What we end up with are complete b.s. and because the messengers are often rich and famous they do lots of damage. If we can make psychology as dry and difficult to understand as physics, then these mommies would focus more on their plastic parts and yoga pants and leave the area of behavior to actual trained professionals.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  15. #13
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I guess if everyone lived in their own bubble, it wouldn't matter at all. What does it matter if someone identifies as male or woman? Isn't that your question? At the next Olympics, you tell me. When a marginal men's athlete demands to participate as a woman so he has a shot at medaling... what difference does it make?
    I always find the idea of men's and women's sports a bit pointless, heck I find the idea of sport itself pointless. Let men and women compete together if they want to or apart if they want to.

    You throw in a bunch of superficial comparisons. You're right. The cereal a person eats is irrelevant. The language a person speaks, though, kinda sorta mattes... no?
    Only for the practical application of whether you can communicate with someone or not. And that is where it should end. It should only mean as much as it practically means and nothing more.

    I am not expressing that a person is judged black or white based on their attitudes. I am saying someone's race is genetic. Does it matter if Rachel wants to be black? No. When she lies about it and puts it on a job application... then yes. It makes her a liar. The only way she isn't a liar is if society gives her a pass and decides that something decided by genetics is now a choice and that's, IMHO, an absurd path to follow.
    Black is just an artificial designation anyhow. How black is black? How much of what melanin do you need? There is no precise definition of a black person. Its a social prescription and if we can arbitrate one way or another then why not just say **** it and arbitrate people how they would like to be? What harm does it actually do anyone? I can tell you what good it would do easily. It would allow people to be who they want to be and would undermine the whole notion of "Us vs Them."
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  16. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I always find the idea of men's and women's sports a bit pointless, heck I find the idea of sport itself pointless. Let men and women compete together if they want to or apart if they want to.
    Well... since you find it pointless... People enjoy sports and while we COULD let men and women compete against one another, it would leave few opportunities for women in sports. That's just reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Only for the practical application of whether you can communicate with someone or not. And that is where it should end. It should only mean as much as it practically means and nothing more.
    And, sometimes (often), culture gives language meaning. When a Canadian says it is going to be cold outside, it is probably different than hearing it from someone from S. California. Culture, where we come from, changes our perspectives. We are born within certain environments. You can't just claim you're from somewhere else because it alters how we interpret what you say and mean. It has an effect on your ability to communicate within a broader community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Black is just an artificial designation anyhow. How black is black? How much of what melanin do you need? There is no precise definition of a black person. Its a social prescription and if we can arbitrate one way or another then why not just say **** it and arbitrate people how they would like to be? What harm does it actually do anyone? I can tell you what good it would do easily. It would allow people to be who they want to be and would undermine the whole notion of "Us vs Them."
    Black is not arbitrary.
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/sicklecell/data.html
    "It is estimated that:
    •SCD affects 90,000 to 100,000 Americans.
    •SCD occurs among about 1 out of every 500 Black or African-American births.
    •SCD occurs among about 1 out of every 36,000 Hispanic-American births.
    •SCT occurs among about 1 in 12 Blacks or African Americans."

    Wow, for something so arbitrary.. should Rachel get checked for SCD because she "feels" black? Does her feeling black make her more susceptible to SCD? If black is something arbitrary then I guess these stats are also arbitrary.

    I acknowledged that labels can be distorted into bad things. However, I am also arguing that they are important.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  17. #15
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Well... since you find it pointless... People enjoy sports and while we COULD let men and women compete against one another, it would leave few opportunities for women in sports. That's just reality.
    Why? Why would some random man want to be on a designated woman's team unless he was trans and how many trans people are going to be able to effectively wear a woman's track outfit and appear to be a woman and want to? It seems like a trivial concern. And as for women in men's sports, why not just let them do it? I they can qualify great, if not then don't. AKA just because you have these designations doesn't mean that if someone occasionally tries to get involved its going to drastically change the nature of the competition.

    And, sometimes (often), culture gives language meaning. When a Canadian says it is going to be cold outside, it is probably different than hearing it from someone from S. California. Culture, where we come from, changes our perspectives. We are born within certain environments. You can't just claim you're from somewhere else because it alters how we interpret what you say and mean. It has an effect on your ability to communicate within a broader community.
    Not really, the temperature is the temperature no matter who says it. Your perception doesn't change the facts that it is 32 Celsius outside. I don't judge the weather by the nationality of the weatherman. I can in fact claim anything I like so long as I can pull it off. The idea that someones nationality determines what they can know is how we have these kinds of problems. Obviously one cannot speak to what it is like to live somewhere in the same way as someone who has lived there. But if it is not direct like that who cares? Most "African-Americans" have never set foot there but that doesn't preclude them from admiring or honoring the culture of those who are.

    Black is not arbitrary.
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/sicklecell/data.html
    "It is estimated that:
    •SCD affects 90,000 to 100,000 Americans.
    •SCD occurs among about 1 out of every 500 Black or African-American births.
    •SCD occurs among about 1 out of every 36,000 Hispanic-American births.
    •SCT occurs among about 1 in 12 Blacks or African Americans."
    So to be black you need to have SickleCell anemia, or if you have it you are Black? What about all the blacks that don't have the gene for it? Are they not as black as the ones who do? It is like saying having breast cancer makes you Jewish because eastern European Jews have a high incidence of it.

    The designation is far wider than a disease that by happenstance is common in that population. It does not define who they are, just speaks to what genes their parents have. If Black people with SickleCell enimia bred exclusively with hispanics then after time hispanics would also have SickleCell anemia, but would that make them black people or hispanic people? It's just a pointless way to try and differentiate.

    Wow, for something so arbitrary.. should Rachel get checked for SCD because she "feels" black? Does her feeling black make her more susceptible to SCD? If black is something arbitrary then I guess these stats are also arbitrary.
    Bingo, they are arbitrary as to defining who is black. What really determines if you have it is your genes and it is not intrinsically linked to being black, only coincidentally.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #16
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Why? Why would some random man want to be on a designated woman's team unless he was trans and how many trans people are going to be able to effectively wear a woman's track outfit and appear to be a woman and want to? It seems like a trivial concern. And as for women in men's sports, why not just let them do it? I they can qualify great, if not then don't. AKA just because you have these designations doesn't mean that if someone occasionally tries to get involved its going to drastically change the nature of the competition.
    Why would a man want to dominate a pro sport for the other gender? Well, if gender was not an issue, we couldn't even begin to call it a "woman's" sport now, could we? It'd just be a minor league of some men's sport. You have added all sorts of weird conditions. Track suit? Effectively? Huh? Let's look at basketball. There is the NBA and WNBA. Women COULD play NBA basketball, but there isn't a woman on the planet who would be effective in the league. So, the NBA created and sponsors a WNBA to give girls a reason to follow basketball and enhance the NBA brand in general. It is a woman's only league. They get paid as professional basketball players. However, if we took gender out, as you suggest, lots of young men who aren't quite good enough for the NBA would certainly enjoy a paycheck from the WNBA. Of course, it would defeat the purpose of the WNBA... but since you don't see the point, who cares??? Well, I am gonna go out on a limb and say the NBA and the women who get paid probably care. Just a hunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Not really, the temperature is the temperature no matter who says it. Your perception doesn't change the facts that it is 32 Celsius outside. I don't judge the weather by the nationality of the weatherman.
    You are creating a straw man. I didn't say Celsius was colder in one place v. another. I said, perceptions differ. Huge difference. If you choose to ignore information... well, ignorance is bliss I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I can in fact claim anything I like so long as I can pull it off. The idea that someones nationality determines what they can know is how we have these kinds of problems. Obviously one cannot speak to what it is like to live somewhere in the same way as someone who has lived there. But if it is not direct like that who cares? Most "African-Americans" have never set foot there but that doesn't preclude them from admiring or honoring the culture of those who are.
    Sure, and you'd be pulling a con or trick on someone. I think you're just trying to play devil's advocate through this entire thing because this is really such a silly series of rebuttals. They are just a series of straw men that don't actually rebut things I've said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So to be black you need to have SickleCell anemia, or if you have it you are Black? What about all the blacks that don't have the gene for it? Are they not as black as the ones who do? It is like saying having breast cancer makes you Jewish because eastern European Jews have a high incidence of it.
    What is this? Straw man number three or four? I'm losing count. I offered statistics to rebut your claim that being black is subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The designation is far wider than a disease that by happenstance is common in that population. It does not define who they are, just speaks to what genes their parents have. If Black people with SickleCell enimia bred exclusively with hispanics then after time hispanics would also have SickleCell anemia, but would that make them black people or hispanic people? It's just a pointless way to try and differentiate.
    Common in what population? You mean the arbitrary population which you've been claiming only exists subjectively? You mean being black is related to genes???? Oh... right, that's what I've been saying the whole time. Glad we agree.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  19. #17
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    I don't think I'm making my self clear enough due to all these examples. My point is that unless there is a practical effect of some cultural identification it should not be considered relevant. For instance....

    If I claim to be an Eskimo so I can get federal subsidies under treaties to the Eskimo's then it mattes whether or not I really am born to that tribe as it is a legal matter based on heritage. If on the other hand if I claim to be an Eskimo because I like to wear fur parkas and muck-lucks and sing Eskimo songs, then no one should have a problem with that because I can do those things as well as any Eskimo can. So where the difference has a practical application, fine, where it doesn't don't worry about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Why would a man want to dominate a pro sport for the other gender? Well, if gender was not an issue, we couldn't even begin to call it a "woman's" sport now, could we?
    Again, you can have woman's sport, its just that if some person is living as a woman then they could in theory join women's sport as a woman. I imagine the number of trans-gendered people who want to compete in Olympic sports and can qualify to do so is so small it makes almost no practical difference. If it does come up and it does make women's sport untenable for women, then that is a practical distinction and I have no problem making the distinction.

    You are creating a straw man. I didn't say Celsius was colder in one place v. another. I said, perceptions differ. Huge difference.
    Again, my point is practical differences. I don't feel that your perception of what cold means when someone says it matters in any real way when you could just check the temperature reading. If you are worried about how the person themselves feels about the temperature, then it doesn't matter their heritage, if they say it feels cold to them then it feels cold to them.

    Sure, and you'd be pulling a con or trick on someone. I think you're just trying to play devil's advocate through this entire thing because this is really such a silly series of rebuttals. They are just a series of straw men that don't actually rebut things I've said.
    No. Look, if I dye my hair color, I am not generally conning anyone that I have blue hair or blond hair or whatever. I just want my hair to be a different color. If I want to adopt the culture of Japan an live as a Japanese man then I do that. Look at me and make your own judgement but you can't say I'm crazy for wanting to be Japanese and doing whatever I can to achieve that.

    What is this? Straw man number three or four? I'm losing count. I offered statistics to rebut your claim that being black is subjective.
    Yours was not an applicable rebuttal. Those statistics don't define black people. That is the point. You cannot use sickle cell anemia to determine who is black. It does not define being black. It is an individual trait that by coincidence rather than causality is associated to having African heritage. It no more defines you as black than liking okra. You tried to say black has a biological definition by saying a certain gene is more common in black people. That just doesn't follow. Its no more rational that saying white is a single race because they more commonly have blue eyes.

    Common in what population? You mean the arbitrary population which you've been claiming only exists subjectively? You mean being black is related to genes???? Oh... right, that's what I've been saying the whole time. Glad we agree.
    Ultimately being black is a social identification. Many people have all kinds of different genes and any given black man has about as much in common as another as they do with a white person. Skin color is skin color but it is itself largely arbitrary. There are a wide range of melanin density from ebony black to lily white and a huge range in between. Easy to make a judgement at the extremes, pretty hard in the middle yet we tend ot insist on making those judgement. Yet ultimate the color of your skin doesn't mean jack **** for most practical purposes.

    So I would advocate people stop trying to determine what is true and just accept that it is all mostly arbitrary most of the time. We should only care for actual practical applications instead of all this useless social posturing.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  20. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If I claim to be an Eskimo so I can get federal subsidies under treaties to the Eskimo's then it mattes whether or not I really am born to that tribe as it is a legal matter based on heritage. If on the other hand if I claim to be an Eskimo because I like to wear fur parkas and muck-lucks and sing Eskimo songs, then no one should have a problem with that because I can do those things as well as any Eskimo can. So where the difference has a practical application, fine, where it doesn't don't worry about it.
    So, race and culture aren't important until they are... And if my friend is an Eskimo and I say, "How's the weather? Should I bring my jacket? I may want to consider his perspective when listening to his answer. Of course, if he's just CALLING himself an Eskimo, but never actually lived North of New Mexico, then I guess I treat his answer as though it is coming from the non-Eskimo he really is. You are downplaying the role environment has in forming our language, views, and perceptions. When someone says they are black, it tends to mean something from a cultural and genetic perspective. Can this be taken to an extreme? Sure. Is it good to take it to an extreme? Probably not. It would be silly to assume my black friend likes fried chicken. However, if he is black, he should probably pay more attention to SCD risks when planning his family. Depending on where he is from, he may have a very different cultural experience than myself. That experience, undoubtedly, has been shaped by the fact he is black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Again, you can have woman's sport, its just that if some person is living as a woman then they could in theory join women's sport as a woman. I imagine the number of trans-gendered people who want to compete in Olympic sports and can qualify to do so is so small it makes almost no practical difference. If it does come up and it does make women's sport untenable for women, then that is a practical distinction and I have no problem making the distinction.
    Per you, if someone wants to call themselves a woman, there should be no limits to this. He can feel like a woman once a week which just happens to be game day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    No. Look, if I dye my hair color, I am not generally conning anyone that I have blue hair or blond hair or whatever. I just want my hair to be a different color. If I want to adopt the culture of Japan an live as a Japanese man then I do that. Look at me and make your own judgement but you can't say I'm crazy for wanting to be Japanese and doing whatever I can to achieve that.
    However, if you put your hair in a weave, essentially put on black face, and tell people you're a black man.... then you are pulling a con.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Yours was not an applicable rebuttal. Those statistics don't define black people. That is the point. You cannot use sickle cell anemia to determine who is black. It does not define being black. It is an individual trait that by coincidence rather than causality is associated to having African heritage. It no more defines you as black than liking okra. You tried to say black has a biological definition by saying a certain gene is more common in black people. That just doesn't follow. Its no more rational that saying white is a single race because they more commonly have blue eyes.
    Show me where I ever made this claim Sig. You claimed being black was arbitrary. I disproved your theory by introducing disease statistics that are prevalent along racial lines. If race was arbitrary, then these statistics couldn't exist. And yes, black does have a genetic/biological definition. Black people, don't prefer to have SCD while okra is something you buy at the market. This is an absurd comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Ultimately being black is a social identification. Many people have all kinds of different genes and any given black man has about as much in common as another as they do with a white person. Skin color is skin color but it is itself largely arbitrary. There are a wide range of melanin density from ebony black to lily white and a huge range in between. Easy to make a judgement at the extremes, pretty hard in the middle yet we tend ot insist on making those judgement. Yet ultimate the color of your skin doesn't mean jack **** for most practical purposes.
    This is just silly. Black is part of a genetic profile. You're focusing on the skin color. But, someone with African descendants has a different genetic make-up than someone with Nordic descendants. About 99% of our DNA is common with monkeys. I guess, to your point, we are just a bunch of apes and any differences such as language, culture, small genetic differences are just arbitrary and irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So I would advocate people stop trying to determine what is true and just accept that it is all mostly arbitrary most of the time. We should only care for actual practical applications instead of all this useless social posturing.
    You mean you'd advocate people stop having their own realities and adopt your reality instead. I am not sure what the useless posturing is. We are discussing a woman who claimed to be black and actually got a job by lying on her application about her race.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  21. #19
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, race and culture aren't important until they are... And if my friend is an Eskimo and I say, "How's the weather? Should I bring my jacket? I may want to consider his perspective when listening to his answer. Of course, if he's just CALLING himself an Eskimo, but never actually lived North of New Mexico, then I guess I treat his answer as though it is coming from the non-Eskimo he really is. You are downplaying the role environment has in forming our language, views, and perceptions.
    What if that Eskimo you asked lived 90% of his life in Florida, could he tel you about the arctic? What if the non-eskimo lived 90% of his life on the arctic circle? Social attribution doesn't guarantee you anything practical. It gives you a guess, an assumption but when you boil it down you are trying to judge knowledge based on what the guy looks like. Judging a book by its cover rather than its contents. That is the point, his environment may have nothing to do with whether legally he is an Eskimo or not by birth.

    When someone says they are black, it tends to mean something from a cultural and genetic perspective. Can this be taken to an extreme? Sure. Is it good to take it to an extreme? Probably not. It would be silly to assume my black friend likes fried chicken. However, if he is black, he should probably pay more attention to SCD risks when planning his family. Depending on where he is from, he may have a very different cultural experience than myself. That experience, undoubtedly, has been shaped by the fact he is black.
    It may have, it may not have. That's the thing, its the actual experience that maters and what genes he actually has, not just what risks there are among others that share other traits or what experience you think is typical. The truth of people is they are all individuals, all different and if you want to make a judgement it is best done based on them as an individual, not various groups. If they want to take on the traits of a group, then its their business and they may well be more versed in that culture than someone born to it but who doesn't choose it.

    Per you, if someone wants to call themselves a woman, there should be no limits to this. He can feel like a woman once a week which just happens to be game day.
    Yep, though for practical matters you often have to decide. Presumably to play on a women team you need to be a woman all the time while on the team.

    However, if you put your hair in a weave, essentially put on black face, and tell people you're a black man.... then you are pulling a con.
    You might be but you may well not be if your motivation is to be black rather than to fool people into thinking you are while you yourself do not think of yourself. Again, if I die my hair am I a con man? I don't think so. A con is when you seek to fool people to your advantage and their disadvantage. If you are simply being yourself then you aren't lying to anyone.

    Show me where I ever made this claim Sig. You claimed being black was arbitrary. I disproved your theory by introducing disease statistics that are prevalent along racial lines.
    You did not disprove black being arbitrary. Disease statistics are not a determinant of racial identity an more than teen pregnancy is or alcoholism is.

    And yes, black does have a genetic/biological definition.
    Challenge to support a claim. Provide me the genetic markers that determine whether or not you are officially black.

    Black people, don't prefer to have SCD while okra is something you buy at the market. This is an absurd comparison.
    It is not absurd. Risk, is not fact. Risk is a prediction. There are more people with dark skin who have SCD than those of some other skin colors, but there is nothing intrinsic about the relationship between SCD and dark skin. They are not genetically linked. An individual with dark skin may or may not have the gene for SCD. It's presens or absence does not in any way define his race any more than liking okra. He doesn't not have SCD, his individual risk for it is 0.00% because he simply doesn't have the gene. Yet by all accounts he is still a black man. That means your statistics are meaningless as a definition for race.

    This is just silly. Black is part of a genetic profile. You're focusing on the skin color. But, someone with African descendants has a different genetic make-up than someone with Nordic descendants. About 99% of our DNA is common with monkeys. I guess, to your point, we are just a bunch of apes and any differences such as language, culture, small genetic differences are just arbitrary and irrelevant.
    You begin to understand at last. Yes we are all a lot more the same than we are different and these superficial differences are largely only meaningful on arbitrary and capricious criteria.

    Most black people don't have SCD it is not part of what makes someone a black person. If it were a trait that defined being black all black people would have it.

    You mean you'd advocate people stop having their own realities and adopt your reality instead. I am not sure what the useless posturing is. We are discussing a woman who claimed to be black and actually got a job by lying on her application about her race.
    The pestering is my personal philosophy. Every person is an individual and should be treated as an individual based on their merits and not broad classifications and labels people like assigning to them for ease of dismissal.

    A job should not be granted because of what race unless there is some very practical reason for it.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  22. #20
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Black and White

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    What if that Eskimo you asked lived 90% of his life in Florida, could he tel you about the arctic? What if the non-eskimo lived 90% of his life on the arctic circle? Social attribution doesn't guarantee you anything practical. It gives you a guess, an assumption but when you boil it down you are trying to judge knowledge based on what the guy looks like. Judging a book by its cover rather than its contents. That is the point, his environment may have nothing to do with whether legally he is an Eskimo or not by birth.



    It may have, it may not have. That's the thing, its the actual experience that maters and what genes he actually has, not just what risks there are among others that share other traits or what experience you think is typical. The truth of people is they are all individuals, all different and if you want to make a judgement it is best done based on them as an individual, not various groups. If they want to take on the traits of a group, then its their business and they may well be more versed in that culture than someone born to it but who doesn't choose it.



    Yep, though for practical matters you often have to decide. Presumably to play on a women team you need to be a woman all the time while on the team.



    You might be but you may well not be if your motivation is to be black rather than to fool people into thinking you are while you yourself do not think of yourself. Again, if I die my hair am I a con man? I don't think so. A con is when you seek to fool people to your advantage and their disadvantage. If you are simply being yourself then you aren't lying to anyone.



    You did not disprove black being arbitrary. Disease statistics are not a determinant of racial identity an more than teen pregnancy is or alcoholism is.


    Challenge to support a claim. Provide me the genetic markers that determine whether or not you are officially black.



    It is not absurd. Risk, is not fact. Risk is a prediction. There are more people with dark skin who have SCD than those of some other skin colors, but there is nothing intrinsic about the relationship between SCD and dark skin. They are not genetically linked. An individual with dark skin may or may not have the gene for SCD. It's presens or absence does not in any way define his race any more than liking okra. He doesn't not have SCD, his individual risk for it is 0.00% because he simply doesn't have the gene. Yet by all accounts he is still a black man. That means your statistics are meaningless as a definition for race.



    You begin to understand at last. Yes we are all a lot more the same than we are different and these superficial differences are largely only meaningful on arbitrary and capricious criteria.

    Most black people don't have SCD it is not part of what makes someone a black person. If it were a trait that defined being black all black people would have it.



    The pestering is my personal philosophy. Every person is an individual and should be treated as an individual based on their merits and not broad classifications and labels people like assigning to them for ease of dismissal.

    A job should not be granted because of what race unless there is some very practical reason for it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics
    "Genetic analysis enables us to determine the geographic ancestry of a person pinpointing the migrational history of a person's ancestors with a high degree of accuracy, and by inference the probable racial category into which they will be classified in a given society."

    I guess in a perfect world where everyone hands me their complete biography, blood work, and a psych exam, I can avoid using things like race, looks, clothing, hair style, etc to form opinions. In a world where we have to make decisions based on incomplete knowledge, I use anything and everything at my disposal. And sometimes, that will include race, gender, and a host of other factors.

    If you prefer to pretend these factors don't exist or are irrelevant, then that is your call completely. If you believe we are apes and the less than 1% differences in our DNA is insignificant, hey, that's your call. Let me put this into yet another analogy.

    You can choose to enter one of three rooms. One room holds an evil dragon. One room has a treasure chest. One room is empty but once you enter, you can never leave. All you can do before selecting is to look through a small key hole in each door. Do you choose to look through the key hole? Do you choose to not look since it will only give you a small glimpse which could be misleading?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Black men kill white women and put broken glass into their private parts
    By Aspoestertjie in forum Member Contributed News
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: April 15th, 2009, 12:22 AM
  2. Black Friday: It Was Black Indeed
    By LiberalTruth in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: December 8th, 2008, 08:49 PM
  3. Red, White, and Blue
    By Just Me in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 2nd, 2007, 01:50 PM
  4. Black versus White
    By Zhavric in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: May 18th, 2007, 08:57 AM
  5. what is black and white and read all over?
    By Bf55 in forum Logical Riddles & Puzzles
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: June 2nd, 2005, 09:34 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •