Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    I guess the story is that students at the Univ. of Missouri have been protesting and demanding that the school system's president step down. In a showing of solidarity, the school's football team refused to take part in football activities until the president resigned. Long story, short, the president resigned today. I am not too interested in why.

    What interests me is why the students were protesting in the first place. After reading the story from several different sites, I am still not really clear. There were a couple of incidents where black students were involved in incidents where they were called racist names. None of the stories made it clear whether the incidents were provoked by actual students as, at least, one of the incidents appeared to occur off-campus. They made some demands about more diversity centers on campus, mandatory sensitivity training for all students and faculty, and the hiring of more black professors. Apparently, about 6% of the students are black and about 3% of the professors are black. The president had refused to meet with what was described as a virtual mob which surrounded his car after some on-campus event.

    So, I guess the whole thing in a nut-shell is, this whole thing just seems overblown and the adults in the room (i.e. the football coach) appeared to support what seems like a gross tantrum. Now, maybe someone will have some additional information to add some perspective. It seems like their demands were not catered to, probably because most of them seemed like costly wastes of money. I think the black movement is imploding on itself. They have run out of real issues to complain about. No one is keeping them off of the bus, out of schools, or denying them opportunities. So, now all they can complain about are supposed micro-agressions which is about as legitimate as getting a paper cut and comparing it to a severed limb.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. Thanks Squatch347, MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  3. #2
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    This seems to be spreading.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/ny...eech.html?_r=0
    The above is a story in regards to Yale's debate on what is seen as racially insensitive Halloween costumes.


    In the piece there is this bit that I have heard at the Missouri protests, and now from Yale, and I don't understand it... so maybe someone can explain it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK ABOVE
    “To ask marginalized students to throw away their enjoyment of a holiday, in order to expend emotional, mental, and physical energy to explain why something is offensive, is — offensive,”
    Underlined for emphasis.

    What do they mean "Marginalized students"? How are they being marginalized? The guy from Missouri said it, and that they were being quieted or some such. Which, was evidently false, because he was speaking in public against the institution.
    They keep referring to the as power houses of white power or various other highly suggestive terms. Frankly, I don't understand it, I don't see it, and I certainly didn't experience it when I went to higher education. This seems to be a lot of offense for no good reason.

    For example, some Black Yale students were upset at a party that supposedly only invited white women, and may have specified no black girls were welcome. Granting the truth of the report... so what!? Does anyone understand the freedom to associate in college? Are they not taught about what that right looks like when it is expressed? Maybe they were all going to dress up as racially offensive costumes, and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Now that may be silly, maybe they were just picking their prospects based on race.... gasp.. can you imagine people having a racial preference for social or romantic gatherings (i assume it turned into some sort of Orgy anyway, or at least that would have been welcome by the party planners).


    My take so far, baring some explanation requested above.
    The whole thing is ridiculous to me. If I am not going to bitch and complain that my neighbor has only black guys at his party (maybe a black panther party), then why should I take seriously the offense of these people? Get a life, grow up, and stop inserting yourself where you have no business or right or even reasonable expectation of right. Still, part of me can't help but Laugh at the plight of these schools, who have created this problem with their ridiculous teachings of rights and how the world works. Of course these kids have no clue what the real world is like, they are kept in a safe zone bubble of unicorns and fairies, where anyone they disagree with or don't like can be shouted down or forced out of their jobs. The only sad thing is that this may be coming to a town near you very soon.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  4. Likes Squatch347 liked this post
  5. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    I had read that NYT story as well. Here is my take on what is going on in a very general sort of way.

    1) The civil rights movement won. It was largely successful. I don't believe there is a place in America where institutionalized racism exists. By this, I mean, there is no law or legislative body which prescribes or adheres to the concept of segregation nor of exclusion based on race.

    2) In historical lore, the civil rights movement existed within a specific time and place. Kind of like the hippy movement. It cannot be replicated nor can it simply continue to exist without being radically redefined.

    3) While institutionalized racism no longer exists, there are huge socio-economic problems within many predominately black communities. Let's be clear here. There are socio-economic problems within many white, latino, and asian communities as well. The explanations and solutions for these problems are described by each community within its own historical lens.

    4) Community leaders and politicians in these black communities tend to be from the civil rights generation and this is the lens they use to view problems affecting their communities.

    5) At the same time, these leaders and politicians are looking to assign blame to groups and institutions other than themselves. This is encouraged by outside groups which use this sort of polemic in order to raise their own profile and for their own profit/benefit.

    6) The civil rights movement, as such, is recreated by these outside groups, community leaders, and politicians in order to deflect blame and because that is what they know. This trickles down to the younger leaders of the community and its false messages are spread by the intelligentsia under the wing of the outside groups mentioned above. There are close historical ties between the intelligentsia and the civil rights movement and the left-wing of the political spectrum which began to converge in the 60's.

    7) Young people are led to believe that the slights that they may feel are equivalent or an extension of the struggle faced by their community elders who actually experienced the civil rights movement. They are encouraged to be highly sensitive as this helps the modern narrative whereby community leaders can absolve themselves of the responsibility for the poor conditions in their communities.

    8) On college campuses, blacks who escape their neighborhoods bring their over-sensitive views with them and blend in well with the other "minority" groups which have also been trained to be highly sensitive to perceived slights.

    9) The socialist left has grown this minority culture in which nearly every person can claim some minority sub-group and where every minority sub-group can claim oppression because it has been judged by the majority culture.

    In my opinion, this is a highly volatile situation that is emerging. The left has pitted every minority group against the perceived majority where the majority is anyone who questions the minority. Even if you are a minority (i.e. Ben Carson or pre-rape Bill Cosby) and question the left view, then you're placed in the majority oppressor category. We all saw the videos from Missouri I presume where some student journalist was being surrounded by a mob of students demanding that he stop filming them. We saw one of the professors physically attempt to move him away and she asked for "muscle" to get him to stop documenting the group which was protesting in public and on campus.

    We are hearing more and more incidents in various college campuses where students are demanding sanitized speech. In the pursuit of "feeling safe" any speech that can be perceived as an insult is handled like an actual assault. On the Yale campus the more recent issue was Halloween costumes. On another campus, the issue was that the cafeteria had taco night and the staff wore sombreros. This is the not the end game mind you. It is the intermediary game of the progressives whereby almost every issue has been broken down into identity politics. It is using the civil rights movement to control minority politics in this country and it is having a deleterious effect on our youth by turning them into second-handers rather than into people of action. Rather than being told that they have control of their lives, they have been led to believe that their well-being is tied to their emotional state which can easily be manipulated by others. How easy is it to brainwash people you've trained to allow themselves to be brainwashed?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  6. Likes Squatch347, MindTrap028 liked this post
  7. #4
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    That is quite an imaginative take (post above). Do you have support for any of this?

    Perhaps there is a simpler and more obvious explanation: The university students were experiencing repeated racial intimidation (as has been reported) via racial epithets, etc. The students became fed up and went to the administration, including the school president and chancellor (as has been reported). Students were unsatisfied with the unresponsiveness of the administration, so they exercised their first amendment rights to make public demands and organize protests (as has been reported).

    I find the actual narrative that has been reported to be much more plausible than the theories outlined above. I think you are giving way too much credit to the abilities and influence of "left-wing" leaders, and far too little credit to the abilities of the students to recognize racism when they see it.

    The situation in Missouri reminds me of what has been happening with the issue of campus rape across the country. Here is a quick outline of that issue:
    1) A few frat boys (or athletes) on many, many college campuses are repeatedly raping and/or sexually harassing coeds
    2) The coeds report the incidents to school administration and nothing is done about it. This is because of one or more of the following reasons:
    a. Difficult to prove (he said she said)
    b. School administrators have motivation to sweep complaints under the rug so as not to get reputation as a school that is dangerous for female students
    c. School administrators (esp. President) are responsible for financial performance of school. Fraternities and athletes bring in the most money and also commit most of the offenses. School administrators are very reluctant to do anything to upset their money sources
    3) Repeat steps 1 and 2, with the same offenders, until coed victims get fed up and speak out to media, organize protests, and sue the universities

    Now replace rape with racial intimidation in the above 3 steps and you have an outline that matches what is happening with the racism issue.

    I actually feel a bit sorry for the school presidents, because they are caught in a no-win situation, and many will be casualties like at Missouri.

  8. #5
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    @Boris

    Well, a few issues.
    First, There is no proof for what you say either. Sure, it has been "reported" but that is the claim was simply being repeated by the media, and even then it has never been clear exactly what occurred.

    Second, Assuming the racial stuff did occur, the students are being unreasonable. They are asking for protection from something that they have no right to be protected from by an authority who is not in control (nor should be) over it, further no authority exists that can or is empowered to protect them from it (nor should it be). If you are butt hurt over something someone says, no matter how mean... that is simply the price of free speech.

    Third, and addition to your narative.
    "...... so they exercised their first amendment rights to make public demands and organize protests (as has been reported)." Then the students and the university violated the first amendment rights of others (as has been reported, with video evidence).

    Finally, the existence of racism, is nothing like the existent of rape. Though I do see your point about the format and your alleged common motivations. I would say in the end, again the students are asking the wrong authority to protect them.

    Bonus.. would you like to answer my original question. In what way have the Black at that school been Marginalized? What does that even mean?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #6
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    @Mindtrap

    Thanks for the reply. I believe the students have heard racial epithets because:
    1) we know there are still racists in society (KKK, Nazi's, etc.)
    2) we know that there are sometimes racist chants on campus (do search on youtube if you don't believe it)
    3) there is no motive for black students to invent this, as the impact to their lives is very negative (death threats, etc.)

    Because of the above reasons, I believe it is happening but I have no idea to what degree it is happening. Furthermore, as a white male, I find it impossible to imagine how I would feel or what I would do if I were a black student and in that situation. I might do the same thing, or I might do something else. What would you do, ignore it? Fight them? Report it to school authorities?

    Concerning the "marginalized" statement, I did not make the statement nor did I support it but I will offer an assumption of what I believe it means. I think they are referring to step 2 in my last post:
    2) The coeds (students) report the incidents to school administration and nothing is done about it.

    If this is what they are referring to, I disagree that the reason nothing is done is because of racism or marginalization of any kind. Rather, I believe it is because of the reasons I gave in the last post, which are political, financial and pragmatic.

  10. #7
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    Thanks for the reply. I believe the students have heard racial epithets because:
    1) we know there are still racists in society (KKK, Nazi's, etc.)
    2) we know that there are sometimes racist chants on campus (do search on youtube if you don't believe it)
    3) there is no motive for black students to invent this, as the impact to their lives is very negative (death threats, etc.)
    I agree with 1&2, but would hold that it is poor evidence for a major problem. I mean atheists exist, and many go to great lengths to disparage Christians personally, I don't agree that such a fact equates to a reason to believe there is a danger to Christians or that something must be done to curb their lawful speech.

    As for 3, I disagree. Several instances of lying have already been discovered, and there is great reason for them to lie. First, because they are part of a movement with an agenda and because lying serves that agenda.
    so 1 they have been caught (hunger strike "victim" for example) 2 they have motive.

    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    Concerning the "marginalized" statement, I did not make the statement nor did I support it but I will offer an assumption of what I believe it means. I think they are referring to step 2 in my last post:
    2) The coeds (students) report the incidents to school administration and nothing is done about it.
    I don't mean to insinuate that you made the statement. It was really just an open question to those supporting or taking the side of those protesting. The marginalized comment was theirs directly in both cases offered in this thread.


    So I'm looking for where we disagree and how to move forward.
    My major contention is that it isn't the universities job nor should it be to end racism on campus especially when it is covered by free speech. I also highly question the actual offenses occurrence, and challenge that they rise to a level above micro-aggressions so as to deserve any attention at all. I mean, if this is valid, then we should be protesting all these drawings of male genitalia (graffiti wise) as sexual harassment.. instead of simple vandalism.
    Someone draws a swatstica on the wall, we should be most offended because they destroyed property, not try to crack down on their POV and speech through laws and regulation.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  11. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Several instances of lying have already been discovered, and there is great reason for them to lie. First, because they are part of a movement with an agenda ait nd because lying serves that agenda.
    Wow, there are a lot of huge accusations there. Do you have support for these statements? If not, you should propose this theory in the conspiracy section and we will discuss facts here. I love a good conspiracy theory, but it is only useful for it's entertainment value unless you can provide substantial support. By lying, they are risking their reputation, their future, and their lives. So the payoff must be incredibly substantial. I haven't seen any evidence for such a payoff. Would you risk all of those things to lie about something? I don't think many people would. I would probably do it if I didn't have to accuse a specific individual and someone were to pay me several million dollars. I don't know who would pay me that or why but if you know of someone please hook me up.

    Why would you automatically assume that these students, who you don't know personally, are obviously lying and are part of some conspiratorial agenda? And you are not the only one, as I hear this theme from many conservatives. This is helping me begin to understand why the students feel marginalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I mean, if this is valid, then we should be protesting all these drawings of male genitalia (graffiti wise) as sexual harassment.. instead of simple vandalism.
    Someone draws a swatstica on the wall, we should be most offended because they destroyed property, not try to crack down on their POV and speech through laws and regulation.
    I think there is a clear difference between graffiti, which is not directed at a specific victim, and physical or verbal attacks, which do have a specific victim.

    On a final note, I don't agree with all of the students demands and I don't really have a strong opinion on whether the incidents rise to the level where actions must be taken. I am not close enough nor do I have enough details to know the answer to that. However, I do support the students right to free speech and peaceful protests, and to make demands of the school administrators. All of these actions are protected by the first amendment, even if it results in someone losing their job. They are not censoring anyone nor do they have the power to do so.

  12. #9
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    Wow, there are a lot of huge accusations there. Do you have support for these statements?
    First, the claim is that black people are being marginalized. The guy who went on hunger strike is from a wealthy family... that is hardly a marginalized life.
    Sure he didn't lie(per this link) about his income or anything, just that his existence is disproof of the claim he seeks to support. I think his original complaint was lack of healthcare on campus or some such.

    The guy who alleged to have racial slurs thrown his way (one of the 3 major claims I think) made up the claim that the KKK was on campus... Link has the screen shots of his claim, and his retraction after it scared students.
    http://www.foxsports.com/college-foo...on-lies-111115

    So, I have supported that their is lying involved in some instances. That is cause to question the "movement".


    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    By lying, they are risking their reputation, their future, and their lives. So the payoff must be incredibly substantial.
    I disagree. They are not risking a whole lot, non of this follows them, and I bet they are never kicked out of school or sued or anything like that over any of their actions. No one cares 5 years later that bob the guy who lied about racial slurs thrown his way, retracted the claim.
    It doesn't follow them at all. Right? As for pay off, it is political ideologs doing anything they think will further their cause. like the millionaires son who thinks his life is just the result of all sorts of oppression.. it's laughable. We should laugh at it. You want free healthcare... and you just won the lottery of life, go cry me a river.

    You want to talk oppression, tell me about the athletes earning billions for these schools that are not allowed to negotiate as a group with the schools that legislate that they should not get paid or own their image, or even have someone pay for their dinner.

    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    Why would you automatically assume that these students, who you don't know personally, are obviously lying and are part of some conspiratorial agenda? And you are not the only one, as I hear this theme from many conservatives. This is helping me begin to understand why the students feel marginalized.
    Well, if marginalized here is to mean that I either a) don't believe their story is credible (like the guy who cried KKK) or b) don't believe their complaint is something I should really care about, nor that they should be really offended by.
    Sometimes you just have to build a bride, and get over it. A guy riding down the road calls you mean names... build a bridge dude.. the school president has nothing to do with it, there is no conspiracy.

    Now, it isn't that we should automatically think this guys are lying, it is just that we shouldn't automatically give ear to their complaints, because they live in la_la land, like the girl who thinks the 1% won't leave if you raise taxes to 90% on them. http://toprightnews.com/foxnews-host...thy-interview/
    *note* that girl was really brave.

    Quote Originally Posted by BORIS
    I think there is a clear difference between graffiti, which is not directed at a specific victim, and physical or verbal attacks, which do have a specific victim.
    ... So who was the specific victim in this case?
    As for verbal attacks... no proof yet, and no actual crime yet. .... so ... victim?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. Likes Ibelsd liked this post
  14. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    That is quite an imaginative take (post above). Do you have support for any of this?

    Perhaps there is a simpler and more obvious explanation: The university students were experiencing repeated racial intimidation (as has been reported) via racial epithets, etc. The students became fed up and went to the administration, including the school president and chancellor (as has been reported). Students were unsatisfied with the unresponsiveness of the administration, so they exercised their first amendment rights to make public demands and organize protests (as has been reported).

    I find the actual narrative that has been reported to be much more plausible than the theories outlined above. I think you are giving way too much credit to the abilities and influence of "left-wing" leaders, and far too little credit to the abilities of the students to recognize racism when they see it.

    The situation in Missouri reminds me of what has been happening with the issue of campus rape across the country. Here is a quick outline of that issue:
    1) A few frat boys (or athletes) on many, many college campuses are repeatedly raping and/or sexually harassing coeds
    2) The coeds report the incidents to school administration and nothing is done about it. This is because of one or more of the following reasons:
    a. Difficult to prove (he said she said)
    b. School administrators have motivation to sweep complaints under the rug so as not to get reputation as a school that is dangerous for female students
    c. School administrators (esp. President) are responsible for financial performance of school. Fraternities and athletes bring in the most money and also commit most of the offenses. School administrators are very reluctant to do anything to upset their money sources
    3) Repeat steps 1 and 2, with the same offenders, until coed victims get fed up and speak out to media, organize protests, and sue the universities

    Now replace rape with racial intimidation in the above 3 steps and you have an outline that matches what is happening with the racism issue.

    I actually feel a bit sorry for the school presidents, because they are caught in a no-win situation, and many will be casualties like at Missouri.
    Imaginative? Perhaps. My support was the logical reasoning I used to make my case. I also supported my argument with real events.

    There is no evidence that racial intimidation has been repeatedly occurring on any college campus. Just like there is no evidence that rape is somehow tied to fraternity boys or athletes. This isn't to say rapes or racial intimidation never occur. However, you have not shown there is any sort of epidemic. Nor have you demonstrated that any leniency has occurred in either case. You're just making unsubstantiated allegations.

    You are also missing the larger narrative here. We see students protesting behavior which is not aggressive (i.e. taco night and Halloween costumes). Students are literally inventing new ways to claim that they are being aggrieved. Why? Who is permitting this? Who is encouraging this? Where does this come from? We see students demand that free speech be limited. Students and faculty are insisting on policies that punish certain kinds of speech under the guise that some speech is hurtful. Not because it is aggressive in tone or intended to intimidate. No, they want speech curbed for the mere suggestion that it could make someone else uncomfortable. ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS! Students are supposed to feel uncomfortable. If you go four years through university without feeling challenged and made to be a little uncomfortable, you have not truly gone through university. You've gone through a trade school. At trade schools, ideas have no explicit place. In a university, however, it is all about ideas. Bad ideas. Good ideas. Aggressive ideas. Passive ideas. Right wing and left wing. Extremism. Sophism. Altruism. Totalitarianism. This is where it is all discussed. And yes, in those discussion, I may offend you. In trying to sort out my theories, I may get it wildly wrong and come off as a raging homo-phobe or bigot. So be it. That is what happens when people are stretching their minds and trying to innovate ideas. That some administrators would agree to curb this or that students would demand that such sharing of ideas is forbidden is entirely against everything that American universities have stood for since the turn of the century. So, I ask. What is the mad impetus for this constraint placed on thinking? What group or groups support this? Why?

    There is no evidence to support the idea that minorities are being singled out or intimidated. An individual who experiences racism is not an example of a larger issue on campus. In the Missouri case, two incidents were reported and one seemed to occur off-campus. It is unclear exactly what the students wanted the administration to do.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  15. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  16. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Missouri - Racism and WTF????

    BTW: Decent article on the ACLU website on this topic https://www.aclu.org/hate-speech-campus

    Protest on campus is part of the whole free speech thing, and ya, sometimes they will call for less free speech. They shouldn't be allowed to achieve that at such an institution. You should be able to speak your mind however offensive that may be.

    We should all keep in mind that it is OK to say you don't think other people should say things and use social pressure to persuade them. Where the line is, is that you can't actually force them to change what they say or stop saying it. Saying unpopular things comes with a consequence and if you want to say it you have to own that.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Racism or not...
    By KingOfTheEast in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: October 29th, 2008, 06:20 PM
  2. Is This Racism?
    By Tarja in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: September 20th, 2008, 12:39 PM
  3. Possible Cause of Racism.
    By onalandline in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: September 2nd, 2008, 12:47 PM
  4. Racism
    By princefigs in forum ODN Polls
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: April 6th, 2008, 11:21 AM
  5. lol racism
    By Zhavric in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: February 23rd, 2008, 03:02 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •