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  1. #41
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm in Nevada at the moment visiting Death Valley so I got to see some of the GOP commercials here for an evening right before the vote while watching bedtime TV. Trump had a spot with a black man endorsing him. The context was the man's son was shot by an Illegal Immigrant and Trump promises to kick all of them out of the US. Thus Turmp is the only candidate that could prevent his Son's death. There is economic and social conflict among Blacks and Latino immigrants that he may be tapping into. Also there are always folks that simply like the idea of success of all races, Trump certainly taps into that.
    It's possible. He does remarkably poorly with both groups. Last I saw he got something like 15% of the latino vote. Romeny lost with 28 or something like that.

    Interestingly, it doesn't seem that his comments about immigration being less important than he lets on or "negotiable" have really affected him at all either. I honestly think he is tapping into something different (I've called it a third way type of messaging), something more about strength than about any specific policy. I honestly thought that his crying about Megyn Kelly beating him up was going to be his downfall since it hurts the strength persona, but I clearly wasn't correct there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Look at his real focus.
    1) Fixing the tax code and attempting to grow jobs in the economy.
    2) Fixing the immigration problem by deporting those here illegally and strengthening our ability to keep them out.
    Is it that he is talking about these things that you think appeals to people rather than his specific messaging?

    I think it is the medium (if that is the correct word). The aggressive, strong man approach that is important. From what I can tell supporters seem not to care what his message is specifically.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    2) I already explained why I find taxing interest on savings does not make sense. You did not address my reasoning. You understand that inflation devalues my money. $100 dollars in the bank today is work about $98 in a year. If I earn 6 (~.06%) cents in interest, then my 100.06 is worth about 98.01. Taxing me on interest at normal income means I'd pay about 2 cents of my 6 cents meaning, my $100 is really worth about $97.99. In other words, without taking into account inflation, taxation on interest is a double hit. I'd also argue this harms the elderly much more than anyone else since it is the elderly who will typically have a majority of their money in a savings account which is considered a safe,stable place to park money.
    That's a spurious argument. One I'd like to use to not make my car payment since my car isn't worth what it was when I bought it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #43
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's a spurious argument. One I'd like to use to not make my car payment since my car isn't worth what it was when I bought it.
    Huh? I know I've been gone a little while, but your rebuttal has no merit. You are/were supporting taxation of income earned via interest. I pointed out that interest is not equivalent to earnings. Your response is to compare the terms of a loan with taxes??? This is the spurious argument.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  5. #44
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Huh? I know I've been gone a little while, but your rebuttal has no merit. You are/were supporting taxation of income earned via interest. I pointed out that interest is not equivalent to earnings. Your response is to compare the terms of a loan with taxes??? This is the spurious argument.
    I agree. I gave an example of a using a spurious variable in an argument the same as you did using inflation. Is what someone receives in their paycheck somehow not subject to inflation? How is taxing that, then, not a "double hit"?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #45
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I agree. I gave an example of a using a spurious variable in an argument the same as you did using inflation. Is what someone receives in their paycheck somehow not subject to inflation? How is taxing that, then, not a "double hit"?
    I think you are conflating the concepts of income and wealth. Money I have in my possession is wealth. Income is money I am taking in. Wealth is a sign of managing expenditures. The U.S. government currently taxes both income and wealth to varying degrees. I've already said I can see both sides when it comes to some types of wealth taxation (i.e. capitol gains and dividends). These sorts of wealth increases typically outpace inflation and blur the lines between wealth and income.

    Bank interest is another thing entirely.
    1) Because it typically under-performs inflation, it is not really a form of income and is a place to park money for safety.
    2) Because savings accounts are a type of safety net, they are typically utilized by the elderly. In particular they are most used by those closest to and in retirement.

    So, what is the purpose of taxing the wealth of the elderly and retired? I am not 100% for taxing wealth in general, but if we are going to tax wealth, then, at least, protect the people who have properly managed their lives to remain off the public dole queue. Give people an incentive to save money for their future. Taxing interest is just one more reason not to save money in a bank which leads to less safe choices. I just think your position of blindly desiring to tax any and all wealth is indicative of a poor grasp of finances and economics. It is an ideological position, not a rational or thoughtful one.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  8. #46
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think you are conflating the concepts of income and wealth. Money I have in my possession is wealth. Income is money I am taking in.
    How is interest not money you are taking in?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #47
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How is interest not money you are taking in?
    I explained this.

    Post 45:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    Bank interest is another thing entirely.
    1) Because it typically under-performs inflation, it is not really a form of income and is a place to park money for safety.
    2) Because savings accounts are a type of safety net, they are typically utilized by the elderly. In particular they are most used by those closest to and in retirement.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  10. #48
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I explained this.

    Post 45:
    That your principal has depreciated is no difference than the example I gave.

    and "safety" also has value. Did you add that?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #49
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That your principal has depreciated is no difference than the example I gave.

    and "safety" also has value. Did you add that?
    The purpose of putting money into savings isn't to earn income. You don't "gain" wealth by putting your money into a savings account. Your argument that safety has value is juxtaposed against your argument that it should be taxed. The more we tax it, the less safe it actually is. You actually give people a valid argument to put their money under their mattresses the more you insist on taxing savings interest as income.

    By the way, the cost of the safety is the low rate of interest you receive when compared to the potential of other other places to put your money. The key thing here is that gaining interest from savings is not wealth creation. There is almost no scenario where it can be defined as wealth creation (aka: income). In order to increase wealth my money must increase when compared against inflation.

    The key here is to understand the difference between wealth and income which you are choosing to ignore or cast off as irrelevant.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  12. #50
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Your scenario might work for those of limited means, although I disagree with that also. You ignore the value of security and also that of access...getting a lower return for a savings as opposed to a cd.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #51
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your scenario might work for those of limited means, although I disagree with that also. You ignore the value of security and also that of access...getting a lower return for a savings as opposed to a cd.
    What scenario? I am not posing a hypothetical. I am explaining a qualitative difference between savings interest and investment income. You appear to concede a difference exists by acknowledging my scenario might work, however, you fail to express why or offer any reason why you dismiss it.

    I am not ignoring the value of those things. They do not have anything to do with differentiating between wealth and income. Security is not wealth creation. Are we being taxed based on how secure our belongings are? Should my property taxes increase if I use a better lock on my front door? The better lock provides a type of value, but it does not increase the property value if my land. It does not increase my tax assessment. Yet, you are trying to equate this value with taxable income.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  14. #52
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not ignoring the value of those things. They do not have anything to do with differentiating between wealth and income. Security is not wealth creation. Are we being taxed based on how secure our belongings are?
    It could be argued so. Since only the portion you earn is taxed and since a savings account earns so little (yet a fixed and guaranteed rate) you are encouraged to keep it in a safe, as opposed to a volitle, location. Readily accessible as well.

    You've agreed that other factors have value and since people use savings instruments for a wide variety of reason beyond wealth creation that's enough to win my argument and bid you a fond farewell.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #53
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It could be argued so. Since only the portion you earn is taxed and since a savings account earns so little (yet a fixed and guaranteed rate) you are encouraged to keep it in a safe, as opposed to a volitle, location. Readily accessible as well.

    You've agreed that other factors have value and since people use savings instruments for a wide variety of reason beyond wealth creation that's enough to win my argument and bid you a fond farewell.
    Your argument and logic is convoluted.
    1) Wealth creation is income. Wealth is separate from income. So, when you say, people use savings for reasons beyond wealth creation, you indicate that you do not understand the difference.
    2) The key here is that people do NOT use savings for wealth creation (i.e. income) because savings does not produce wealth.
    3) Should the government tax money you keep under your mattress too? Like a bank there is value of security there as well. Neither produces wealth.
    4) Saying something could be argued is not the same as arguing your point. I asked a very simple question. Should I be taxed based on the quality of locks I've placed on my front door?

    The point here is that money I've put into a savings account has already been taxed. When it was acquired, as income, it was taxed. So, what is the reasoning for taxing money which is not acting as income? The security provided by a bank is paid for via fees as a transaction between the account holder and the bank. The bank is taxed based on its own earnings. I believe we should tax individuals for every lock they have in their possession each year. This makes about as much sense as what you are offering.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #54
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    When it was acquired, as income, it was taxed. So, what is the reasoning for taxing money which is not acting as income?
    It's not, the interest is taxed not the principal and that only after a certain amount.

    By your reasoning if I save up some money I earned (and was taxed on) and I buy a gas station any monies I earned from running said gas station (after operating costs, profit that is) should not be taxed.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #55
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's not, the interest is taxed not the principal and that only after a certain amount.

    By your reasoning if I save up some money I earned (and was taxed on) and I buy a gas station any monies I earned from running said gas station (after operating costs, profit that is) should not be taxed.
    Please explain the difference between wealth and income? Or, are you claiming there is no difference?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  18. #56
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Please explain the difference between wealth and income? Or, are you claiming there is no difference?
    I'll refer you to my last example...the gas station.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #57
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'll refer you to my last example...the gas station.
    In your gas station example, you noted that only profit should be taxed and you specifically noted "after operating expenses". You appear to acknowledge there is a difference between wealth and income. Income from a gas station is profits intended for short-term gain. It is, by definition, profit which is being taxed. Then, he puts the money into savings, perhaps, where he is then taxed again on his money even though, in real terms, it is not growing. Obviously, if the gas station owner is not getting a return on investment greater than 3% (or the level of inflation), it is unlikely he'll be in business very long. Of course, business expenses can be written off meaning there is some room for profit before the tax man gets his cut. Again, the tax is on actual income, not merely wealth.

    So, what are you trying to achieve, other than stealing from grandma and grandpa, with taxes on savings interest? I just don't get your hard-line stance here. I get that you hate anyone with two nickles to rub together, but even retired people??? What do you have against the elderly?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #58
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Then, he puts the money into savings, perhaps, where he is then taxed again on his money even though, in real terms, it is not growing.
    Why do you keep saying that? The principal is not taxed, only the new interest income. You sound ridiculous. Have you never filed a tax return?

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, what are you trying to achieve, other than stealing from grandma and grandpa, with taxes on savings interest? I just don't get your hard-line stance here. I get that you hate anyone with two nickles to rub together, but even retired people??? What do you have against the elderly?
    This is nonsense never uttered by me.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #59
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why do you keep saying that? The principal is not taxed, only the new interest income. You sound ridiculous. Have you never filed a tax return?

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------



    This is nonsense never uttered by me.
    I keep saying it because you are pretending earning interest in a savings account is equivalent to wealth creation. When that interest is less than inflation, it is clear not the case. The purpose of a business is wealth creation and it comes with all sorts of write-offs to offset profits which accounts for things like asset depreciation which is generally tied to inflation. In other words, even in endeavors purely intended for the creation of wealth, things like inflation are taken into account when determining taxation. No such policies exist for savings interest. Why? Who is most harmed by these types of taxes? How does this targeted group fit into your agenda as it relates to taxation and government?

    You keep insisting that it is right and just to tax interest like income, but you completely ignore any and all arguments I have made which separates interest income from real wealth creation. You have no argument relating to whom taxing interest targets, so I think it is fair to hold you accountable for your views. If policies you support penalize the old and retired, then it is fair to posit that you may harbor some ill will towards these groups of people.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  22. #60
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Investing doesn't have right offs? Let alone the other benefits of a savings account which I already pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If policies you support penalize the old and retired, then it is fair to posit that you may harbor some ill will towards these groups of people.
    Unsupported
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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