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  1. #101
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    That's not what I asked. So, again, you are acknowledging that when he lied to Congress, that his behavior was inappropriate?
    Which behavior?

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    [COLOR=Silver]

    You have offered no facts to support your theory. You have just invented a theory. A theory, which if you were correct, the administration would have already floated.

    A theory no better or worse than yours. Mine, however, doesn't champion our adversaries the way yours does.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #102
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Which behavior?
    Wait. So, you are saying the affairs are not inappropriate, and that the only act that was inappropriate was not telling Congress? So, a boss sleeping with his intern or secretary is not inappropriate behavior in your view. I'm sure your boyfriend is thrilled with that revelation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    A theory no better or worse than yours. Mine, however, doesn't champion our adversaries the way yours does.
    Plenty worse actually since your theory is not based on reality. We know the Obama administration lied to the press and to the victims' families. We know the event occurred just before election time. How this is championing our adversities, I have no idea.

    Per ABC
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...got-a-bad-rap/
    In other words, you can blame the CIA for faulty intelligence on spontaneous protests. You can blame the State Department for insisting that references to terrorism be deleted. You can blame the White House for allowing those references to be deleted.

    So, while the CIA got the initial facts wrong, when the CIA tried to get it right, the White House and State Dept looked like they were playing politics.

    We also have documents which indicate the White House's motives
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-r...alking-points/
    The document lists as a “Goal”: “To underscore that these protests are rooted in and Internet video, and not a broader failure or policy.”

    You can view the above referenced email and please note goal #2
    http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/29/ye...bout-benghazi/

    So, while your theory is rooted in absolute fantasy, my theory is rooted in documentation and fact, supported by the White House's own admission.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  4. #103
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Wait. So, you are saying the affairs are not inappropriate, and that the only act that was inappropriate was not telling Congress? So, a boss sleeping with his intern or secretary is not inappropriate behavior in your view. I'm sure your boyfriend is thrilled with that revelation.
    Sexual relationships, really relationships of all kinds, are normal human behavior and to be expected in any organization. That is why they have procedures for them. Generally, these include reporting of the relationship if it is going to continue. Since he ended it - so completely, asked for gifts back, etc - I don't see any problem.

    I'm currently single but what does that have to do with anything?

    ---------- Post added at 02:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    .

    Plenty worse actually since your theory is not based on reality. We know the Obama administration lied to the press and to the victims' families. We know the event occurred just before election time. How this is championing our adversities, I have no idea.

    Per ABC
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...got-a-bad-rap/
    In other words, you can blame the CIA for faulty intelligence on spontaneous protests. You can blame the State Department for insisting that references to terrorism be deleted. You can blame the White House for allowing those references to be deleted.

    So, while the CIA got the initial facts wrong, when the CIA tried to get it right, the White House and State Dept looked like they were playing politics.

    We also have documents which indicate the White House's motives
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-r...alking-points/
    The document lists as a “Goal”: “To underscore that these protests are rooted in and Internet video, and not a broader failure or policy.”

    You can view the above referenced email and please note goal #2
    http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/29/ye...bout-benghazi/

    So, while your theory is rooted in absolute fantasy, my theory is rooted in documentation and fact, supported by the White House's own admission.

    ""spontaneously inspired by the protests." That mistake belongs to the CIA" from your source above.

    A plan crafted by the CIA...lol...how is that not intended to be counter-intelligence?

    Sure, it's called a "mistake" after the fact, after your side has blown it up. But that supports my argument as to the damage your side did to us - that you'd damage what could've been a successful downplay of an attack to gain political points against an administration you don't like...sad.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #104
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sexual relationships, really relationships of all kinds, are normal human behavior and to be expected in any organization. That is why they have procedures for them. Generally, these include reporting of the relationship if it is going to continue. Since he ended it - so completely, asked for gifts back, etc - I don't see any problem.

    I'm currently single but what does that have to do with anything?
    You are making a straw man argument here. No one has claimed sexual relationships are not normal human behavior. I am discussing a particular type of sexual relationship where someone with power has sex with someone who reports to him. There are procedures and the procedure in most companies is, don't do it. The situation creates a conflict of interests and an uncomfortable workplace. Imagine you know that your boss is sleeping with your co-worker and you are both up for promotion for the same job. Who has the inside track on that job? The idea that his actions were not inappropriate is, frankly, laugh out loud funny. Let's also keep in mind that it isn't like he had not done it before with other women who reported to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    ""spontaneously inspired by the protests." That mistake belongs to the CIA" from your source above.

    A plan crafted by the CIA...lol...how is that not intended to be counter-intelligence?

    Sure, it's called a "mistake" after the fact, after your side has blown it up. But that supports my argument as to the damage your side did to us - that you'd damage what could've been a successful downplay of an attack to gain political points against an administration you don't like...sad.
    You know, it is kind of bad form on your part to cherry-pick sentences and ignore the entirety of the argument laid before you. I acknowledged the CIA had originally made a mistake. Not sure what plan crafted by the CIA you are referring to. The CIA, though, appeared to have corrected its mistake. However, the administration refused to acknowledge their own mistake. Furthermore, one of their goals was to shift blame from policy to the internet video. Again, we can disagree on my theory, however, claiming it is no more valid than the theory you posited is ridiculous on its face.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  6. #105
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are making a straw man argument here. No one has claimed sexual relationships are not normal human behavior. I am discussing a particular type of sexual relationship where someone with power has sex with someone who reports to him. There are procedures and the procedure in most companies is, don't do it.
    But what if you do? Are you saying organizations do not have procedures in place to handle that eventuality? You must never have worked at any large institution.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    I acknowledged the CIA had originally made a mistake.
    Was it a "mistake"? How do you know that for sure?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #106
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    My belief is that the Democrats are so void of any sort of plan B, they are forced to ride that horse come hell or high water.
    I think public opinion will be the deciding factor as to how the leaders of the party deal with this issue real or unreal. Public opinion drives politics. If it's real, Dems will probably forgive her and life will move on without another Clinton in the WH.

    I mean, the Democrats risk losing just about everything here.
    I think both parties have been at this juncture before. Losing a battle is just that, the loss of a battle. It doesn't mean their war is lost, but I guess that's a different issue.
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  8. #107
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But what if you do? Are you saying organizations do not have procedures in place to handle that eventuality? You must never have worked at any large institution.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------



    Was it a "mistake"? How do you know that for sure?
    It happens and people are often reprimanded for such behavior. The fact that companies usually advise against such relationships speaks to their inappropriateness. Just because it occurs does not make it any less inappropriate.

    I am just reiterating what the article says when it notes that the CIA offered a correction. In other words, there is nothing to indicate the original CIA assessment was some sort of covert plan. But, hey, if you have evidence to the contrary, then please offer it. Either support your claim or retract it. That is how we roll here at ODN.

    ---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think both parties have been at this juncture before. Losing a battle is just that, the loss of a battle. It doesn't mean their war is lost, but I guess that's a different issue.
    This is probably true.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  9. #108
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It happens and people are often reprimanded for such behavior. The fact that companies usually advise against such relationships speaks to their inappropriateness. Just because it occurs does not make it any less inappropriate.
    That's a valid opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    I am just reiterating what the article says when it notes that the CIA offered a correction. In other words, there is nothing to indicate the original CIA assessment was some sort of covert plan. But, hey, if you have evidence to the contrary, then please offer it. Either support your claim or retract it. That is how we roll here at ODN.
    Who said it had to be "some sort of covert plan"? It was the plan. As believable as "oops, we made a mistake".
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #109
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    The Hillary E-mail violations can be summed up by a scene from full metal jacket

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP8y63Ms4o

    Clearly the unlocked footlocker is her server.
    The Jelly Donut is the 22 Top Secret, and thousands of other lower level state secrets found in the unsecured server.

    The reaction of "What the F*ck is that!" Are you allowed to have state secrets in an unsecured server!.

    Well, that is how anyone I have read who knows how state secrets are dealt with react.

    On the other side, we have her defenders reacting like. "meh. Who cares about state secrets anyway? This is a witch hunt".

    Either way, we are all paying for it.
    To serve man.

  11. #110
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Findings from the State Department's IG don't do a lot to help Ms. Clinton.

    —The report concluded that Clinton's use of a private server to exchange messages with other State Department officials violated the department's cybersecurity guidelines as well as requirements under the Federal Records Act. Clinton's exclusive use of private emails to conduct government business was "not an appropriate method of preserving any such emails that would constitute a federal record," it said. The report added that Clinton "should have preserved any federal records she created and received on her personal account" and turned them over to the department before she left office in February 2013. Instead, Clinton kept all of her emails and surrendered only about half of them — about 55,000 pages — to the department in March 2015, after media accounts revealed she had never used a department account to conduct official business.

    —Clinton told longtime aide Huma Abedin in November 2010 that she did not want to release her private email address to the State Department or use a government email address because "I don't want any risk of the personal being accessible." Clinton's expressed fear of outside access to her emails is at odds with her statement during a 2015 news conference that she "opted for convenience to use my personal email account."

    —Clinton has given repeated assurances that she would cooperate with an FBI investigation into her use of the private server, but she and several of her top aides declined to be interviewed by the inspector general's office. Clinton's former chief of staff, Cheryl Mills, former deputy chief of staff for operations Huma Abedin and former deputy chief of staff for policy Jake Sullivan, declined to cooperate, and former deputy secretary of state for management and resources Thomas Nides did not respond to interview requests. Abedin and Nides are now senior campaign aides to Clinton, Mills heads an African business growth operation and Nides is vice chairman of the Morgan Stanley investment firm. Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell, also turned down an interview.

    —Some State Department officials were aware as early as March 2009 that Clinton was using a private server located in the basement of her family's home in Chappaqua, New York. A March 2009 memo prepared by staff in the department's executive secretariat identified the private server and its location. But the inspector general said many senior State Department officials who were interviewed said they were "unaware of the scope or extent" of Clinton's use of her private account even though many of them sent emails to her private address. The report found no evidence of a legal staff review or approval for her use of the server, and added she would not have received approval if she had asked.

    —Suspected hacking attacks on Clinton's private server led her aides to shut down her server at least twice in January 2011. An unidentified technical adviser to former President Bill Clinton who worked on the server told Abedin that he had shut the system down because "someone was trying to hack us." Later the same day, the aide again shut down the server after a second intrusion. The next day, Abedin emailed Mills and Sullivan not to send Clinton "anything sensitive" in their emails. Clinton also told a top aide in May 2011 about an email with a suspicious link she received a day earlier. Those incidents were not reported to State Department computer security personnel, the report said. Clinton's campaign has repeatedly said there is no evidence Clinton's server was ever breached.

    —While Clinton's campaign website assures that "robust protections" guarded her private server, the inspector general said that State Department diplomatic and computer security officials reported that Clinton "never demonstrated to them that her private server or mobile device met minimum security requirements" specified by Foreign Service and cybersecurity guidelines. Clinton received a classified briefing about cybersecurity risks and was warned in a 2011 memo about the risk of hackers targeting personal, unclassified email accounts, the report said.

    —The State Department issued numerous warnings about the use of private emails dating back a decade. But the inspector general criticized the agency for being "slow to recognize and to manage effectively the legal requirements and cybersecurity risks" that have grown as the federal government has relied increasingly on emails for its operations.

    —The inspector general found that four unnamed top aides to Clinton also extensively used private email accounts for official business but failed to turn those records over for preservation when they left office. The four "failed to comply" with Department policies intended to carry out government preservation of documents. The top aides were not named but their listed titles identified them as Mills, Abedin, Sullivan and former top communications and strategy aide Philippe Reines. Some email records for all four have since been produced by the department in court proceedings as part of public records lawsuits.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...mails-39373422
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  12. #111
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's a valid opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------



    Who said it had to be "some sort of covert plan"? It was the plan. As believable as "oops, we made a mistake".
    First, Bill was sued for sexual harassment, so let's not just brush his behavior under the table as mere indiscretion. Second, either support your claim that the CIA had a plan to release misinformation or retract this argument. It is not about believable. It is about supporting your claim, something you have not done in the slightest.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  13. #112
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    First, Bill was sued for sexual harassment,
    Not by Monica

    ---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Second, either support your claim that the CIA had a plan to release misinformation or retract this argument. It is not about believable. It is about supporting your claim, something you have not done in the slightest.
    According to your source they not only had a plan to release incorrect information, they did so. The only contention is why. That it was a "mistake" is believable and is the opinion of your source. That it was the conceived plan of a nation's intelligence agency is also at least equally believable, if not moreso, in my opinion.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #113
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Not by Monica
    No, I think it was by the several women who claimed he raped them.
    To serve man.

  15. #114
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not by Monica

    ---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------



    According to your source they not only had a plan to release incorrect information, they did so. The only contention is why. That it was a "mistake" is believable and is the opinion of your source. That it was the conceived plan of a nation's intelligence agency is also at least equally believable, if not moreso, in my opinion.
    1) Who cares if it was Monica. Bill was already having legal problems from his inability to keep his penis out of the mouths of his employees, now he was doing it with an intern. Inappropriate? Yeah. I think so. However, had he merely told the truth when asked, then probably no harm no foul. When asked about, though, he lied. Compounding the problem by a behavior which even you admitted is not appropriate.

    2) According to my source the CIA made a mistake. There is no claim that releasing that mistaken info was part of some larger plan. You are just making that part up. Again, I supported my claim. I'm still waiting for you to support your claim. Until then, I will have to assume you cannot support it and I will not recognize it as a valid claim in future posts.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #115
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    2) According to my source the CIA made a mistake. There is no claim that releasing that mistaken info was part of some larger plan. You are just making that part up. Again, I supported my claim. I'm still waiting for you to support your claim. Until then, I will have to assume you cannot support it and I will not recognize it as a valid claim in future posts.
    Appeal to authority fallacy. Your source is a news agency making that conclusion based on no evidence..."[They] are just making that part up" as you would say.

    And there is a claim...my claim. I find it hard to believe that an intelligence agency wouldn't be involved in, ah, like, I don't know, let's say, manipulating intelligence.

    They are both equally plausible explanations, I just happen to believe mine is more believable.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #116
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Appeal to authority fallacy. Your source is a news agency making that conclusion based on no evidence..."[They] are just making that part up" as you would say.

    And there is a claim...my claim. I find it hard to believe that an intelligence agency wouldn't be involved in, ah, like, I don't know, let's say, manipulating intelligence.

    They are both equally plausible explanations, I just happen to believe mine is more believable.
    An independent news source is actually a better source of information than you. Here is further evidence

    http://time.com/89144/a-benghazi-sca...media-mistake/
    "Morrell, testified in front of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that it was only after the Libyan government said on Sept. 18 that video footage showed no protests that the CIA concluded they had got it wrong."

    As early as Sept 15, reports from Tripoli by CIA operatives were already debunking the video theory. Morrell chose not to believe his operatives, under pressure from the White House, to continue to tout the administration's line. However, in all of this, there is absolutely no indication that there was any sort of plan other than minimizing Obama's political pain right before an election.

    "At 11:12 p.m., just 40 minutes later, Hillary e-mailed her daughter, Chelsea, with the truth: “Two of our officers were killed in Benghazi by an al Qaeda-like group.”
    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...a-benghazi-lie

    So, even though the CIA made a mistake, which they admitted, Clinton had enough information to know that a video was not the cause. Obama had enough information. And we have a memo which explains why they used the video anyhow.


    So... I've defended my position. Either support your position or retract it.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  18. #117
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    An independent news source is actually a better source of information than you. Here is further evidence

    http://time.com/89144/a-benghazi-sca...media-mistake/
    "Morrell, testified in front of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that it was only after the Libyan government said on Sept. 18 that video footage showed no protests that the CIA concluded they had got it wrong."

    As early as Sept 15, reports from Tripoli by CIA operatives were already debunking the video theory. Morrell chose not to believe his operatives, under pressure from the White House, to continue to tout the administration's line. However, in all of this, there is absolutely no indication that there was any sort of plan other than minimizing Obama's political pain right before an election.
    Well, yes, exactly after the plan had backfired and was exposed there would, of course, be damage control...duh. Where did the highlighted part come from?
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  19. #118
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, yes, exactly after the plan had backfired and was exposed there would, of course, be damage control...duh. Where did the highlighted part come from?
    No. You are making up a conspiracy theory. I am quoting the head of the CIA. I reject your theory as an argument in this debate. Or another way: I challenge you to support your claim or retract it.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #119
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No. You are making up a conspiracy theory. I am quoting the head of the CIA. I reject your theory as an argument in this debate. Or another way: I challenge you to support your claim or retract it.
    Where did you quote the head of the CIA?
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  21. #120
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    Re: What happens if Clinton scandal is real?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Where did you quote the head of the CIA?
    I quoted Morrell in post #116.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
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