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  1. #281

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If a person who believes in a creator God makes the claim "God created the universe", is that a theistic claim? Yes or no?

    Is that too hard to answer? Is the context just too darn confusing to wrap your head around?
    That's easy to answer because it's a tautology - of course a creator God claims God created the universe!

    I just want to avoid making statements that might cover all religions. The attitude isn't necessary.

  2. #282
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    That's easy to answer because it's a tautology - of course a creator God claims God created the universe!
    That's not what was asked. Here it is again, edited to help remove any trouble with interpretation or comprehension:

    If a person who believes in a creator God makes the claim: "God created the universe", is the claim "God created the universe" a theistic claim?

    This is a simple "yes" or "'no" question. There's absolutely no reason at this point to answer it with anything BUT "yes" or "no". If there still somehow remains some deeply vexing part of this concept with which you're grappling, you leave us with no choice but to assume you're either unwilling or unable to engage intelligently in this topic.

  3. #283

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    RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    That's not what was asked. Here it is again, edited to help remove any trouble with interpretation or comprehension:

    If a person who believes in a creator God makes the claim: "God created the universe", is the claim "God created the universe" a theistic claim?
    Whatever do you mean by "theist claim"? It's a claim on reality whatever you want to call it! So no, it is not only a theistic claim.

    This is a simple "yes" or "'no" question. There's absolutely no reason at this point to answer it with anything BUT "yes" or "no". If there still somehow remains some deeply vexing part of this concept with which you're grappling, you leave us with no choice but to assume you're either unwilling or unable to engage intelligently in this topic.
    I am engaging intelligently. I have specific ideas that I want to defend and you appear to make me answer yes or no questions that are more nuanced. I kinda know where you're headed but you have to be precise so that I know you mean.

    Sorry to frustrate you but it appears many debates come down to precise language and grammar so you'll have to forgive me if in take things one at a time.
    Last edited by SadElephant; June 24th, 2016 at 05:10 AM.

  4. #284

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    @Dionysus: I'd be curious to dialog a yes answer, if you're up for it.


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  5. #285
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    @Dionysus: I'd be curious to dialog a yes answer, if you're up for it.
    I'll let you take it up with Futureboy, if he's still interested.

  6. #286

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I'll let you take it up with Futureboy, if he's still interested.
    How did my answer terminate our dialog though?

  7. #287
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    So no, it is not only a theistic claim.
    This seems to imply that it is a theistic claim, without directly answering the question. Please confirm.

  8. #288

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    RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    This seems to imply that it is a theistic claim, without directly answering the question. Please confirm.
    Yes, for the sake of argument, I agree it is a theistic claim. (Note, so we are clear, this is an exercise only since this I believe this is a claim on reality. TBH, I don't really know what a theistic claim actually is - I am assuming it is some kind of religious statement.).

  9. #289
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    TBH, I don't really know what a theistic claim actually is - I am assuming it is some kind of religious statement.
    Well, they're your words, not mine. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what you are claiming, since you've repeatedly stated your opinion that god and claims which are theistic are not possible, but then when pressed to actually support that they're impossible you stated that you don't think all theistic claims are impossible. The inconsistency of your arguments overall is staggering. There is absolutely no reason an OP as initially simple (and as simply flawed) as yours should take almost 300 posts to get to the bottom of it.

  10. #290

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Well, they're your words, not mine.
    I think the origin of "theistic statement" came from Dionysus but I've been wrong before; if you can quote me, perhaps I'll understand it better in context/

    I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what you are claiming, since you've repeatedly stated your opinion that god and claims which are theistic are not possible, but then when pressed to actually support that they're impossible you stated that you don't think all theistic claims are impossible. The inconsistency of your arguments overall is staggering. There is absolutely no reason an OP as initially simple (and as simply flawed) as yours should take almost 300 posts to get to the bottom of it.
    As I keep pointing out, the OP asks whether "the known universe allows God to exist". Saying whether God is possible or impossible is largely a different kind of discussion, which it seems I may have inadvertently veered into a few times.

    I don't believe the OP is flawed at all - much of the 300 posts was with Mican trying to defend various definitions of God; none of which passed muster to even discuss whether it existed or not.

    Someone began with the cosmology argument and we discussed the nature of the truth we're discussing: he avoided talking about the supernatural for some reason, whilst I insisted he did.

    Another suggested that God was greater than what can be imagined, saying that those that don't believe don't have enough imagination. I agreed, that God is imaginary.
    There may have been a few minor objections but none have stayed too long.

    If you can specifically point out the flaw then please do so. It might be more instructive to begin again, with the added caveat that I mean the first sentence to be a conclusion rather than a premise.

    I get that you feel that I'm all over the place, but that is the nature of dialog and discussion - ideas sometimes change, and debating strategies can arise.

    However, I feel my OP still stands and other than re-ordering things a little, I don't see much I need to change. It's a pointless task debunking something you don't believe in, so as an atheist, I am trying to argue that a better explanation for the existence of God is human nature: specific claims are largely a waste of time since they lead to turtles, whereas, if I can successfully argue that God is a human creation and that this is a better explanation then God's actual existence is moot.

  11. #291
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    I think the origin of "theistic statement" came from Dionysus but I've been wrong before; if you can quote me, perhaps I'll understand it better in context/
    As I keep pointing out, the OP asks whether "the known universe allows God to exist". Saying whether God is possible or impossible is largely a different kind of discussion, which it seems I may have inadvertently veered into a few times.
    See post #270.

    If you can specifically point out the flaw then please do so. It might be more instructive to begin again, with the added caveat that I mean the first sentence to be a conclusion rather than a premise.
    That might be helpful. The biggest flaw for me right now is that you are taking theistic reasons for rejecting other theistic claims as good reasons for you to reject them. As I stated, that's not a good way to go about being an atheist.

  12. #292

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    See post #270.
    I already responded to that post. Can you point out one thing specific you want to discuss please?

    That might be helpful. The biggest flaw for me right now is that you are taking theistic reasons for rejecting other theistic claims as good reasons for you to reject them. As I stated, that's not a good way to go about being an atheist.
    I don't see why? This line of argument fulfills several purposes:

    1. It rejects the idea of "theism" - there is only theism specific to each religion. Thus, a Christian not only has beliefs for his own religion but he has rejected all others. Although it hasn't come into play yet, that is a weakness of any theistic religion.
    2. It means that each religion is solitary in their beliefs and I would probably argue each sub-sect is also equally separate. A theist thus can only argue from his own personal religious point of view, from an unsupported position no less since he hasn't disqualified the other deities yet.
    3. That there is a mutual disbelief is also factual and that there is no overarching governing framework to determine truth either is not only a weakness of all theisms but also proof that truth is undererminable. So not only do theists have no proof of even their own religion, it appears they also cannot do so; at least with current theistic technology anyway (or as one poster calls it - imagination)
    4. Without a leg to stand on with other theists, how can any religion claim any kind of truth value. They not only cannot define God without a nested set of turtles, they cannot determine with other religions, which is true but they also have minor differences within that they cannot resolve (eg JWs and Mormons also claim to be Christian).

    So I disagree it is a poor argument. It proves the entire thing is a big mess where anyone can claim anything they want. It means that theists have no position and therefore we must look to other explanations that are also fact based.


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  13. #293
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    I already responded to that post. Can you point out one thing specific you want to discuss please?
    You said "I think the origin of "theistic statement" came from Dionysus" and "Saying whether God is possible or impossible is largely a different kind of discussion, which it seems I may have inadvertently veered into a few times". Post #270 has quotes indicating when and where you made each of those statements.

    I don't see why? This line of argument fulfills several purposes
    As I already explained, using theists' reasons for rejecting other theistic claims is to accept their theistic reasons for rejecting those claims. The fact that theist A rejects theistic claim B, C, and so on, only proves that theist A has sufficient theistic reasons according to A's theism. Do you think those are good reasons for you to reject claims B, C, etc?

    So I disagree it is a poor argument. It proves the entire thing is a big mess where anyone can claim anything they want. It means that theists have no position and therefore we must look to other explanations that are also fact based.
    Nobody is questioning whether it's a big mess. The question is whether you have supported that the known universe does not allow a deity to exist. It would not appear that you have.

  14. #294

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    You said "I think the origin of "theistic statement" came from Dionysus" and "Saying whether God is possible or impossible is largely a different kind of discussion, which it seems I may have inadvertently veered into a few times". Post #270 has quotes indicating when and where you made each of those statements.
    He did bring it up. In a new context for his failed gotcha argument. What I'm trying to determine is what would happen if I answered the affirmative to his question. Are you game for that?


    As I already explained, using theists' reasons for rejecting other theistic claims is to accept their theistic reasons for rejecting those claims. The fact that theist A rejects theistic claim B, C, and so on, only proves that theist A has sufficient theistic reasons according to A's theism. Do you think those are good reasons for you to reject claims B, C, etc?
    Absolutely! The mutual disbelief is the critical part - it's not that A or B has better arguments, it's that none of them do. No theism has sufficient persuasive power to overcome each other's disbelief, which points to two things. The lack of a common framework to determine truth and the fact that people can switch between religions means that membership is driven not by facts (based on reality or the supernatural) but personal faith.

    Another important note is that their specific arguments are irrelevant, rendered neutral by other religions already. If an argument can't persuade those who are credulous of such claims AND have a deep desire to have a better afterlife then there is no hope for a nonbeliever.

    Nobody is questioning whether it's a big mess. The question is whether you have supported that the known universe does not allow a deity to exist. It would not appear that you have.
    Well, other than theists bailing out after a couple of rounds of turtle arguments and our resident agnostic insisting on dictionary definitions, I think my OP still stands pretty solid.

    If there are specific arguments you feel are weak and that we CAN draw a conclusion that God exists using facts about our universe then please present such an argument. But as things stand, the cultural specificity of religion and personal beliefs point towards a human origin for God and religions rather.


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  15. #295
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    He did bring it up. In a new context for his failed gotcha argument.
    You brought it up before him in post #221, as I quoted in post #270.

    Absolutely! The mutual disbelief is the critical part
    There's nothing critical about their mutual disbelief. In fact, it's to be expected, and does not support the argument that it's not possible for a deity to exist.

    it's not that A or B has better arguments, it's that none of them do.
    If you are looking at their arguments from the skeptical agnostic/atheistic perspective, then this is not surprising at all, and again doesn't support your argument.

    membership is driven not by facts (based on reality or the supernatural) but personal faith.
    This is irrelevant to the argument that the universe does not allow for a deity to exist.

    Another important note is that their specific arguments are irrelevant, rendered neutral by other religions already.
    Again, if looking at their arguments from the skeptical agnostic/atheistic perspective, then this is irrelevant. I don't care why one theist rejects another theist's arguments, and the fact that all theists reject each others' arguments (until they accept them when they convert) only means that theists will believe in their own deity for their own theistic reasons, so they by default have to reject all other theistic claims which don't gel with their theism. This really isn't the nail in the theistic coffin you think it is.

    If an argument can't persuade those who are credulous of such claims
    So, you're saying that, just because theist A is credulous of theism A claims, the fact that he is incredulous of theism B claims - even though they are both theistic claims - means something? Sure, it means his theism A does not allow him to accept theism B. Simple as that. An easy analogy: if someone's favourite ice cream flavour is chocolate, then the fact that strawberry is not their favourite doesn't mean anything even though they are both flavours of ice cream. The fact that everyone's favourite is their own and they don't accept other flavours as their favourite only means that their favourite is their favourite and other flavours are not their favourite.

    Well, other than theists bailing out after a couple of rounds of turtle arguments and our resident agnostic insisting on dictionary definitions, I think my OP still stands pretty solid.
    You have not supported that the universe does not allow a deity to exist.

    If there are specific arguments you feel are weak and that we CAN draw a conclusion that God exists using facts about our universe then please present such an argument.
    You misunderstand the nature of how we assess claims. Your job is to support the motion that the universe does not allow for a deity to exist. Opposition to that doesn't need to present arguments for the existence of a deity. You have made the claim, and the burden of proof is on you to support it.

    But as things stand, the cultural specificity of religion and personal beliefs point towards a human origin for God and religions rather.
    Again, this is irrelevant and does not support your OP. Even if all religions have human origins, you have not demonstrated that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist.

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  17. #296

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Again, this is irrelevant and does not support your OP. Even if all religions have human origins, you have not demonstrated that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist.
    I believe I have done that: the claims of miracles clearly defy natural science and evidence. Without any evidence or proof then these claims are all fallacious and must be discarded, especially since religions have competing claims and mutually disbelieve each other anyway. Hence, there can be no deities - either from a scientific perspective or even a religious one.

  18. #297
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    I believe I have done that: the claims of miracles clearly defy natural science and evidence.
    Read it carefully: "You have not demonstrated that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist." The fact that the miracles currently claimed defy our understanding of science cannot be extrapolated to mean that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist, since there could exist a deity which has nothing to do with any of the claimed miracles.
    Without any evidence or proof then these claims are all fallacious and must be discarded, especially since religions have competing claims and mutually disbelieve each other anyway.
    Again, your claim is that the universe doesn't allow a deity to exist. Even if we throw out all the theistic claims which are fallacious, mutually exclusive, bla bla, you still haven't demonstrated that there is no deity possible in this universe.
    Also, I addressed your point that religions disbelieve each other in my last post. Please don't simply repeat your points after they have been rebutted without addressing the rebuttal first.
    Hence, there can be no deities - either from a scientific perspective or even a religious one.
    You have not demonstrated this. You need to provide evidence about the universe and why the universe doesn't allow the existence of a deity. All you have done is bring up criticisms of human theistic claims. That's fine, but the only rationally justified conclusion based on your criticisms is skepticism and withholding belief in the theistic claims. As I have repeatedly asked, why do you insist on going further than that?

  19. #298
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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    I believe I have done that: the claims of miracles clearly defy natural science and evidence.
    Which is not evidence that does not God exist. God can exist and yet claims of miracles can still be false - it would mean that God exists but did not perform miracles.

    Quote Originally Posted by SadElephant View Post
    Without any evidence or proof then these claims are all fallacious and must be discarded, especially since religions have competing claims and mutually disbelieve each other anyway.
    Okay. So the religions have failed to provide any evidence that God exists. That does not mean that God does not exist.
    Last edited by mican333; October 16th, 2016 at 12:43 PM.

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  21. #299

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Read it carefully: "You have not demonstrated that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist." The fact that the miracles currently claimed defy our understanding of science cannot be extrapolated to mean that the universe doesn't allow for a deity to exist, since there could exist a deity which has nothing to do with any of the claimed miracles.
    The miracles do not "defy" our knowledge - our knowledge makes the miracles impossible: dead people do not come back to life, there is no such thing as virgin birth, people cannot walk on water unaided, nor do demons exist. It's not as if we don't have hundreds of years of detailed and documented experiments and experiences, none of which allow these miracles to happen.

    If you are proposing a deity that doesn't claim any miracles then you need to have evidence or support for such a belief. Otherwise, I have no reason to accept something you have just plucked out of thin air.

    Again, your claim is that the universe doesn't allow a deity to exist. Even if we throw out all the theistic claims which are fallacious, mutually exclusive, bla bla, you still haven't demonstrated that there is no deity possible in this universe.
    Again, after we have dismissed all known deities, you are now saying that there are some deities that are possible. Would you like to detail about what these deities are? Otherwise, you're proposing thin air.

    Also, I addressed your point that religions disbelieve each other in my last post. Please don't simply repeat your points after they have been rebutted without addressing the rebuttal first.
    Remind me of your rebuttal?

    You have not demonstrated this. You need to provide evidence about the universe and why the universe doesn't allow the existence of a deity. All you have done is bring up criticisms of human theistic claims. That's fine, but the only rationally justified conclusion based on your criticisms is skepticism and withholding belief in the theistic claims. As I have repeatedly asked, why do you insist on going further than that?
    Well, if I have shown that none of the known deities can exist because the claims contradict what we know about science, then I have no idea what you are proposing! You appear to postulate the existence of some deity with no supporting evidence or some existing deity sans magic. I have no idea. At this point you are rebutting my points with nothing but further speculation. Until you support what these possible deities are about then your entire rebuttal is rejected.


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  22. #300

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    Re: RELIGION 1: Does the known universe allow God to exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is not evidence that does not God exist. God can exist and yet claims of miracles can still be false - it would mean that God exists but did not perform miracles.
    All you're doing here is cherry picking what God actually is and what's leftis not the God that is declared to exist by the religions. I don't even know what kind of entity or creature you are purporting this miracle-less God is: creating the universe is considered to be a miracle also - so now we have stripped the that away, we are left with nothing. Unless of course, you wish to exclude all miracles except the one about creating the universe!

    Okay. So the religions have failed to provide any evidence that God exists. That does not mean that God does not exist.
    They haven't just failed at proving God exists - they have failed to prove that the universe can even support such an entity and they rely on speculation about things we know nothing about (what is outside of our universe) as well as the nature of this supposed creator (i.e. one person vs an entire race of aliens). As you have tried yourself to explain all the support that God needs to exist, it's speculation all the way. There is no God to consider existing since there is no intellectual substrate onto which to place him.

    I mean, let's forget about God for the moment and consider where God is supposed to exist. Do you even know or have any idea of where that might be? Where our supposed souls (another speculation) are supposed to end up when we die? Where the angels and demons and all manner of devils, ghosts and ghouls reside? Seriously, are you suggesting that some or part of these other aspects of God that you have also conveniently ignore are also plausible!?

 

 
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