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  1. #1
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    Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    ------------------------------------
    This debate is to happen sections.
    First, Perspective and lens/values
    Second, What are our choices
    Third, (only after the first two at length) our conclusion and reasoning to vote for one over the other.
    ------------------------------------

    Intro
    So we are faced with a decision between two candidates for president. What are our choices?

    First, our perception of our choice is very much formed by the media, and so that should be our first aspect to address, exactly what lens are we looking through?
    Second, what we are presented by that lens should be established (First step, discovery phase) then examined (where we establish truth, and place personal value on).
    Finally, we must decide and give a reasoning. (But not until we discuss the first two a bit hopeful).


    The Lens
    Does our lens (the media) value national policy or personal characteristics?
    Do you value national policy or personal characteristics? (one over the other that is). Now it is easy to say we value both, but does the media reflect those values?

    For me, it does not. We can take the recent events of Trump and Hillary to see.
    Trump in a private conversation with an individual said things that are degrading to women.
    Hillary in a private e-mail said things about national polices that many Americans would Abhor.

    What have you observed the media focusing in on? Now, I have been at work all day, and yet all I have heard is Trumps comments. So my perception is that the lens is clearly focused on Personality to the near ignoring of National Policy.

    Further, if you asked me certainly I would value both National policy and Personal Characteristics, but for my life as a citizen It is pretty clear that Open Boarders would effect my life negatively and my nation more negatively then a person who, in private, says what many guys say in private anyway.



    So, now what do we have to choose from?


    First assumption to be taken by all contributing. Take it as a kind of "discovery" phase, where at the end we establish which claims have truth and which ones don't.
    That will be the time to cast off this assumption and examine the value and actuality of our choices. So, feel free to add both positive and negative to either candidate.

    If we are to believe both candidates.

    ---Trump---
    Positive

    Negative
    Trump is mean to women who views them in a highly sexual way.

    ---Hillary---

    Positive

    Negative
    Hillary is, a Liar who actively works to deceive the american people of her personal political policies and goals, as well as shirk her responsibility in many legal and politically questionable actions.



    Conclusion
    Not yet people, lets establish the first two. Ideally it should be the reason you vote a certain way, and why others should follow and agree.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  2. #2
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    So, based on the fact that the only negative you can think of for Trump is that he's "mean to women" - whereas you have quite a long sentence describing Hillary's inadequacy for political office - you're leaning towards Trump?

  3. #3
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    The Lens
    Our view is shaped by the media, but the media in its fullness is vast and diverse and it is our choice which of it to listen to and how deep we dig through it. I think its lazy to say that people are controlled by the media but fair to say they are heavily influenced by it. Still, I hold people responsible to their own opinions and any ignorance they have based on the weakness of their own inquiry. Before the internet, it could take a long time to really research a story or find a wide range of views on a subject of contemporary significance. Today it takes about 15 minutes to find a wealth of information on nearly any subject you care to name, even just hours after it happened.

    The media is often a reflection of what people care about, especially with social media because people share what they think matters and news sites cater to this by publishing what they think will interest people. It's always been like that but it is magnified more than ever as an echo chamber of what people find stimulating and interesting.

    My take on policy and character
    I care about both things, but my expereince is that policy is more important than character. Bill Clinton was a good president policy wise, one of the best in my lifetime. Yet his character is deeply suspect, especially when it comes to his treatment of women. I think Bush Jr was actually a man of good character, someone who was genuinely good hearted. But I think he was one of the worst presidents of my lifetime for the country, insituting a war with a long lasting and terribly legacy and allowing greedy business interests to near ruin the economy. Were I picking a friend among the two, I'd be friends with Bush. Were I picking one to be resident I'd pick Bill (though would hold my nose doing so).

    Mind you I never voted for Bill Clinton. I voted third party in both his elections. I couldn't personally endorse the guy despite thinking that his policy was a great deal better than the GOP alternative which I generally Abhored. It wasn't until Obama I had a presidential candidate I was both very in line with policy wise (though not compleately) and who's character I very much respected. I not only voted for him but campaigned for him and gave him money.

    The advice I'd give people is to vote for policy they approve of first and foremost. If they feel a moral conviction that they can't support a given candidate despite their policy, then I'd encourage them not to vote for that candidate. Not because I think it is the most logical choice, but because being true to yourself is more important than political pragmatizm in the case of voting.

    The character of the two candidates

    Trump is morally bankrupt in any and every way I could care about. He has betrayed multiple wives, lied constantly, pandered to racism and xenophobia, cheated a great many people of their money, spoken of women like a predator, changed his policy views based on political convineince, advocated violence, demonstrated a staggering ignorance of many issues, and leveles vile insults at people for no good reason. Hes a bully, a liar, and an asshole supreme. I'm sure he has some vaguely redeeming moments and takes good financial care of his close allies and family.

    Hillary is a little more of a mystery to me. I can see she is a trained lawyer and adept at weaseling her way through tricky legal watters. She clearly takes great privilage from her possition of power and wealth, getting away with breaking the rules. I think she puts on whatever face she needs for a given social situation and I see her pander to different groups. I've seen her political views shift with the winds of cultural change though I don't know if it is due to following culutre naturally or simple pandering. If she is pandering it's not every clear exactly what her own convictions really are. I've no doubt that she sacrices a lot for the sake of power and achievement. Her husband is a cad and she puts up with that with grace and dignity. If its simply because she desires power above all else, or becasue she loves her huspand and sees the good in him over the bad, I don't really know. She is not genuine or transparent enough for that to be clear. I think her pragmatism is a powerful force, but if she is pragmatic for the sake of doing what she thinks is right, or purely for her own ego, I can't say. She covers her ass with both hands, but can I fault someone for doing that knowign that if she didn't she would go down in flames and loose all she worked for? Would I not cover my ass if a federal inditement were on the line? What I have never seen is any real proof she's done anything purely for her own gain. There is no smoking gun of fat bankrolls purely based on her political or business dealings. Nor any policy decision that seems especially self serving or corrupt. What I can say is she isn't much like me, that she seems less sleazy than her husband by a good measure, and that I don't really sympathise with her on a personal level.

    Scorecard: Clinton by a decent margin for me. I'll take a power hungry pragmatist with lots of smoke but no fire over an out and out liar and snake oil salesman I can smell coming a mile away.

    Policy Considerations


    Trump: What I like about Trump is he is not an ideolog. He doesn't just have a one note view. He clearly does think for himself. Not always very well, but he's not some drone of the GOP. Sometimes he says things that make sense, things neither the left or right take as their policy possition. My problem is he's kind of an idiot. Its like Bush but without any moral character underpinning his policy. He just panders to people's worst fears and promises nonsensical simple solutions. When he chooses advisors he seems to gravitate to people that just stroke his ego and do what he says rather than people who will challenge him to think harder. This means not only bad ideas, but bad execution on those ideas. He talks like a hawk most of the time which I hate. His idea of strategy is bomb the **** out of people. His plan for stemming immigration is moronic. His stance against refugees is immoral and cowardly. His sudden embrace of pro life policy is a mark agaisnt him in my book. His tax plans are complete fantacy and if enacted would bankrupt the government in no time flat, not to mention exacerbate the rich/poor divide that is causing so much social contension. Finally he's shown massive irresponsibility, an epic lack of discipline, zero decorum or discression, and kind of personal pettiness that could be a disaster for international relations and peace.

    Hillary: While she has indeed lied about thinks like if she followed department rules or the like, her political goals and actions seem pretty straight forward and genuine. She is something of a hawk, which I dislike, but I find no inconsestancy in it. She's for progressive social programs which I don't always like but at least sympathise with. She's no socialist, prefering to work within the current economic system nearly all the time. Her tax proposals are usually pretty reasonable if unimaginitive. She listens to the scientific community and seems to take heed of what they say. She's strong on civil liberties which I support more than anything. She's too buddy buddy with big business for my taste but ultimately I do think big business is an essential part of american life and always will be. I only think they need to be challenged a bit more to keep them from excesses of greed and huberous. She's a bit too much "protect the children" for my tastes favoring a government that tries to protect everyone from themselves. I don't think she'd champion legalization of marijuana and other drugs which I'd like to see. I think she would champion investment in infrastructure effectively. I also think she will surround herself with very smart, very pragmatic advisors and staff and that she would actually listen to them when they told her she was wrong.

    The only other politician on my radar is Johnson. My take on him is he's a reasonably smart guy, not a true libertarian, and not quite ready to run for president in the big leagues. If the GOP had some moderate running, I might, just might vote for the guy. I often vote for third party candidates. But this year, I despise Trump so thuroughly that I'll hedge my bet and support Hillary despite my reservations. Perhaps in 4 years Johnsom wil have boned up on his foreign policy and get something going I can join in on.

    Bottom Lines


    Trump is a hot mess of ignorant, unwise, and morally bankrupt all rolled into one.

    Clinton is politically competent and has a solid policy record despte her blatant pandering and abuse of privilage. She would also be the first woman president which I think is an important step for our culture just as was the first black president.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #4
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    So, based on the fact that the only negative you can think of for Trump is that he's "mean to women" - whereas you have quite a long sentence describing Hillary's inadequacy for political office - you're leaning towards Trump?
    I don't believe I offered a conclusion.
    Also, I offered only a beginning to the comparisons, not an exhaustive list.
    Feel free to contribute your own.

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

    @sig.
    Thanks for the post, very good.

    There are a few things that I don't think ring true.
    First the idea of either Clinton or Trump as an idiot, is pretty ridiculous and frankly I think that is the Lens talking.
    I mean, do you really amass as much success as Trump has by being an idiot? I read his book long ago(art of the deal), and I hardly thought of him as an idiot from it.
    Further, the idea that trump doesn't know how to work with foreign gov, is pretty much false on it's face. Again, look at the evidence, he has done all kinds of business with them. If he really was as stupid and inept as you suppose him to be, then they would have executed him.

    The other is this
    Quote Originally Posted by sig
    her political goals and actions seem pretty straight forward and genuine.
    I can not see the consistency in saying that she puts on whatever mask she finds convenient, but then see her as strait forward and genuine.
    Unless you are talking about a quest for power and position (not necessarily bad mind you), I do not see it and see a great inconsistency with this view.

    I'll work on distilling your post down to a few lines of positive/negative to add to the OP.
    Also the above is a bit of the evaluation phase, though I really want to get a few more lines of comparison before going all out on that portion.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  5. #5
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't believe I offered a conclusion.
    Also, I offered only a beginning to the comparisons, not an exhaustive list.
    Feel free to contribute your own.
    The not-very-subtle difference in the criticisms you offer indicates a bias towards Trump. Especially after you took the time to write the OP and provided a detailed and politically-themed criticism of Hillary, but provided just a short and not-politically-themed criticism of Trump.

  6. #6
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    The not-very-subtle difference in the criticisms you offer indicates a bias towards Trump. Especially after you took the time to write the OP and provided a detailed and politically-themed criticism of Hillary, but provided just a short and not-politically-themed criticism of Trump.
    My points are those that both campaigns have made, and IMO are the focus of each campaign. It isn't intended as my personal take.
    So what is the problem?

    Do you have some point about the candidates you feel is being ignored? What is it? Can you offer as Sig has a a breakdown as you see it?
    What is the other Clinton criticism of trump that I have not listed? How about Hillary, is there some other one that Trump has brought up?

    I get the impression you don't really care.. which sort of misses the point of the thread. care to try again?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  7. #7
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My points are those that both campaigns have made, and IMO are the focus of each campaign. It isn't intended as my personal take.
    The way you presented the points makes me think that you're leaning towards Trump. Are you or aren't you?
    I get the impression you don't really care.. which sort of misses the point of the thread. care to try again?
    I'm interested in the actual debate topic/argument that is yet to be made by you, and since that would require a clear position of choice between both candidates, I'd like to know where you stand. Could you confirm your apparent favour of Trump? Sig quite clearly expressed his opinion, so I'd like know yours.
    Since I won't be voting, I really only have a few observations regarding the race and US politics as a whole. While Trump clearly isn't the best candidate (not that Hillary is good, either - criticism of one should not be taken as support of the other), I think it would actually be pretty interesting if he won - kinda like seeing America "go full-retard" - and everyone knows you never go full-retard.

  8. #8
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    There are a few things that I don't think ring true.
    First the idea of either Clinton or Trump as an idiot, is pretty ridiculous and frankly I think that is the Lens talking.
    I mean, do you really amass as much success as Trump has by being an idiot? I read his book long ago(art of the deal), and I hardly thought of him as an idiot from it.
    I'll qualify that by saying that idiot is a very general and blanket term. Clearly the guy is not a classic idiot, aka has a dysfunctional level IQ or the like. More accurately I'd have to say that he is not especially intellectual or thoughtful. Not very creative or an especially deep thinker. AKA pretty dumb by my standards. I'd also say that you don't have to be smart to be rich. You only need ambition and decent trainging. It may also be that he is incredibly smart in certain respects and in certain areas that have nothing to do with public policy. I'm judging him largely based on the moves hes made in the campaign, and his policy statements and speaches. Lots of very stupid stuff said by Mr. Trump. Or just total ********, that too is possible. (His book was ghost written by the way.)

    Further, the idea that trump doesn't know how to work with foreign gov, is pretty much false on it's face. Again, look at the evidence, he has done all kinds of business with them. If he really was as stupid and inept as you suppose him to be, then they would have executed him.
    Doing business is not the same as political negotiations. In business you give something someone else wants and they give you something you want. You don't have to do business. In negotiations you often don't have a choice, an issue has come up and two sides are making different demands. I'm sure some of his negotiation skills would come in handy but just walking away from political negotiations is not the same as just walking away from a business deal. Its a different ball game and his braging and vindictive nature are not going to help him out.

    I can not see the consistency in saying that she puts on whatever mask she finds convenient, but then see her as strait forward and genuine.
    Unless you are talking about a quest for power and position (not necessarily bad mind you), I do not see it and see a great inconsistency with this view.
    I'm saying that she plays politics with deception and artiface, but when she makes policy it's not with a hidden agenda but simply to accomplish some practical goal. AKA she plays the lying game to get elected, and when elected mostly just does her job as a liberal minded politician or beauracrat. She tends to do leadership and legislation in slow gradual steps rather than dramatic sweeps. She plugs away at passing small legislation and as secritary of state at gradual diplomatic efforts. She's done nothing remotely radical during any time she's held an office that I can think of. Some point to that as a failure to achieve anything, and granted she didn't do anything amazing, but neither did she do anything terrible either. Just getting the business of progressive government done. If you hate progressive politics then that's terrible, if you don't then it's just fine. But either way, there is nothing two faced about it, she persues the policies she says she supports and mostly plays it low key. When on the stump she talks a lot more fire than she displays in action. If there is any betryal its that she talks some power to the people, but when in office she works with big business because she knows America runs on big business and to spite it would create chaos and economic turmoil.

    I guess you can sum that up saying she's a pragmatist rather than an idealist when it comes to politics. Or her policy is on the side of cautios change rather than dramatic revolution.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #9
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Doing business is not the same as political negotiations. In business you give something someone else wants and they give you something you want. You don't have to do business. In negotiations you often don't have a choice, an issue has come up and two sides are making different demands. I'm sure some of his negotiation skills would come in handy but just walking away from political negotiations is not the same as just walking away from a business deal. Its a different ball game and his braging and vindictive nature are not going to help him out.
    Well, I take your point, but I don't necessarily agree. I mean, I get that they are different and there are distinctions, but I disagree that a successful private negotiator is not positive element on a resume. For one, I think that it would take first hand knowledge of his negotiations, and second a reasonable take that he would not adapt to any new elements or dynamics in the negotiations.
    As for his bragging, I don't take this as a legit point. Politicians are constantly tooting their own horn, even if it is for passing legislation that changes some street signs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I'm saying that she plays politics with deception and artiface, but when she makes policy it's not with a hidden agenda but simply to accomplish some practical goal. AKA she plays the lying game to get elected, and when elected mostly just does her job as a liberal minded politician or beauracrat. She tends to do leadership and legislation in slow gradual steps rather than dramatic sweeps. She plugs away at passing small legislation and as secritary of state at gradual diplomatic efforts. She's done nothing remotely radical during any time she's held an office that I can think of. Some point to that as a failure to achieve anything, and granted she didn't do anything amazing, but neither did she do anything terrible either. Just getting the business of progressive government done. If you hate progressive politics then that's terrible, if you don't then it's just fine. But either way, there is nothing two faced about it, she persues the policies she says she supports and mostly plays it low key. When on the stump she talks a lot more fire than she displays in action. If there is any betryal its that she talks some power to the people, but when in office she works with big business because she knows America runs on big business and to spite it would create chaos and economic turmoil.

    I guess you can sum that up saying she's a pragmatist rather than an idealist when it comes to politics. Or her policy is on the side of cautios change rather than dramatic revolution.
    I guess I agree with what your say as true.. but it is appalling to me. Not simply because I don't like the fact that she is a progressive, but the lying to the public and saying whatever it takes is to me a usurpation of the democratic process.

    In fact.. now I want her to be President, because she is exactly what the nation deserves. We let politicians lie to us then work out their own agenda, so.. lets go full boar and elect the queen and master of that process. Then we can all sit in the ruins of america. Dramatic.. I know, but I really don't think good things come from electing people who live like that. That isn't principled, that is like the electing the devil.
    So, yea, I see your point and totally agree that is exactly who she is. That should horrify you and every american. I actually respected Sanders because I at least felt he was honest and I can take losing a little better to someone who I disagree with honestly then a liar.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I guess I agree with what your say as true.. but it is appalling to me. Not simply because I don't like the fact that she is a progressive, but the lying to the public and saying whatever it takes is to me a usurpation of the democratic process.

    In fact.. now I want her to be President, because she is exactly what the nation deserves. We let politicians lie to us then work out their own agenda, so.. lets go full boar and elect the queen and master of that process. Then we can all sit in the ruins of america. Dramatic.. I know, but I really don't think good things come from electing people who live like that. That isn't principled, that is like the electing the devil.
    So, yea, I see your point and totally agree that is exactly who she is. That should horrify you and every american. I actually respected Sanders because I at least felt he was honest and I can take losing a little better to someone who I disagree with honestly then a liar.
    I agree with you as well, mostly. I supported sanders because he was what he said he was. He got a little caught up in things at one point promoted the whole (she's cheating thing) which wasn't really true, but once it was clear he'd lost he settled down which restored my beleif in the guy. Everyone gets a bit desperate when they are on the cusp of loosing a big fight. He's a good guy, and I'm no socialist so he's left of where I'm at as well.

    Where I disagree, that she will leave America in any kind of ruin. I think she will stear the ship of state compenently but unremarkably for the most part. Kind of like Bush Sr. She may also do good things for the budget like her husband did, actually spending close to what we take in for a change. (and Obama, kind of sort of has, he's at least been moving in the proper direction, slowly, gently, but going the right way. Ya, we are only back where we started before the recession, but aside from clinton everyone else has takend the deficit and doubled down on it during their presidency. Obama took it from HOLY **** to Still Pretty Damned Huge. I suspect Hillary will continue that trend, but we shall see. I'd trust hillary almost compleatly if I could make her sight a "no wars" pledge of some kind. I don't like her hawkishness one bit and democrats are almost more prone to getting into military conflicts than republicans are just to prove they arn't weak etc... Since republicans talk tough all the time it kind of gives them the option to actually act tough or not so long as they keep saying how tough we are.

    Off Topic: I still don't get how much Obama gets hate on the right. He's had a hell of a steady hand, hasn't made any horrible errors, is an incredibly stand up moral example, handled the economy in crisis incredibly well (though short of miracle worker), and is just plain charming and funny. I think we lucked out with him. The only real gripe should be you don't like his policy direction, and that's fair but the kind of attacks he gets are all a kind of deep seated emotional driven hostility and rage. Just boggles my brain.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  12. #11
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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Off Topic: I still don't get how much Obama gets hate on the right. He's had a hell of a steady hand, hasn't made any horrible errors, is an incredibly stand up moral example, handled the economy in crisis incredibly well (though short of miracle worker), and is just plain charming and funny. I think we lucked out with him. The only real gripe should be you don't like his policy direction, and that's fair but the kind of attacks he gets are all a kind of deep seated emotional driven hostility and rage. Just boggles my brain.
    You know, of all the presidents Obama has been the worst for me personally and for my area. For one reason only. His decision to shut down the gulf after the BP spill. No other president has ever personally put me out of work for nearly a year with the stroke of his pen. Now I say that with to contexts. The first is that a republican in his place may have done the same thing I really don't know. The second is that other than that specific action, presidents have generally come and gone with only subtle effects on my personal life, and with ambiguous effects on the economy.

    The other thing I have against him personally, is his absolute failure and mishandling of race relations in America. Seriously, I had one hope for change in this nation, and that was that the first Black president would at least lead us down a road of finally healing the racial divide. What we have is basically the worst mismanagement possible of the situation. Silence when he should be speaking, speaking out of ignorance and fueling anti police sentiment (see police acted foolishly). I can't fault him for getting Obama care through, I mean I hate it. It has been a disaster but I didn't have health insurance before because I couldn't afford it, now I really really can't afford it and the deal to buy it seems economically retarded. I would literally have to go bankrupt for it to kick in. Still, He got it done, and that was the agenda He was elected for.. So cudos to him. But man, I thought, I really really did think that He would be a force for good in the race thing. Now, I look around and dude, it is bad. Al Sharpten wanted to come to my town(for a police shooting incident) and protest. The only reason why He didn't was because we have a highly armed population, and the police told him that they were not going to prosecute property owners who were protecting their property. Granted.. that is local hear say. But that is close to home yo.

    Anyway, that is my personal gripes about Obama. I don't think they are unreasonable, though at least one is an outlying action that just didn't go my way.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Mind Trapped by : Trump vs Hillary

    Hmmm, I really have to take that up with you in another thread, especially the race relations thing.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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