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  1. #61
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It does not matter if it exists as I characterized it or not. It is not relevant. You took the bait and I could care less if you agree with my opinion on her behavior or if you would like to consider it retracted. Your central claim is that there is no need for an investigation. Period. I am rebutting that claim by noting that there is something there which exists and which cannot be positively known without an investigation of some type. So, clearly, there IS something to investigate. As has been agreed to, the coat exists. Is there money in the pocket? Until you check the pocket, how would you know? Yet, somehow, you'd like to convince us that there are no pockets and, even if there are pockets, that they contain no money. How do you assert this with any confidence? I guess because in Hillary you trust, or perhaps more accurately, you just dislike Trump so much that you prefer to protect Hillary at all costs.
    Nope, not "something"...you claimed "They expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections." (amongst other claims) and did not support it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #62
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Nope, not "something"...you claimed "They expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections." (amongst other claims) and did not support it.
    I have explained the logic. I have explained my conclusion. Until you support your claim I have nothing more to add.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  3. #63
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Because there seems to be some disagreement on what claims are outstanding, I'm going to clarify:

    1) Ibelsd's claim that the email leaks "expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections." in post 39 has not been directly supported. A link to any source noting that specific text would suffice as support.

    2) CowboyX's claim that "That's because there's nothing in them. There's nothing to investigate or to report." in post 37 is likewise unsupported. The burden of proof would be more difficult as Cowboy will need to show that there is no controversial information in any of the emails.

    Clarifying point: Cowboy's defense in post 44: "If not, we'll consider them retracted and I won't have to bother to support something that self evidently is." is incorrect. Both claims are separate, positive claims. Even if Ibelsd retracts his claim, Cowboy bears a burden to defend his claim in this thread.

    Use of either claim without support will be a rules violation.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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  5. #64
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, not the gov. The industry itself.
    Though, You could make a point that it wouldn't be much better. My complaint is that professional field of journalism is part of the problem due to their lack of internal vetting.
    Of course that would mean adopting standards.
    The only thing I would like the gov to do is to play it's proper roll of being able to ensure people don't falsely take on a title that they do not hold (IE commit fraud). I don't want them issuing the licenses .. that should be the journalists doing it.
    The industry already licenses itself. It views a journalism degree as a license that shows someone has been trained as a journalist. I am sure there are trade groups and such journalists belong to as well. Unfortunately, journalism isn't a science. There is no one proper way to be a journalist. Not all journalists are investigative reporters. Does anyone who chooses to investigate and report need to be a journalist? I just do not think licensing as you are describing it makes a lot of sense.



    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Because there seems to be some disagreement on what claims are outstanding, I'm going to clarify:

    1) Ibelsd's claim that the email leaks "expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections." in post 39 has not been directly supported. A link to any source noting that specific text would suffice as support.

    2) CowboyX's claim that "That's because there's nothing in them. There's nothing to investigate or to report." in post 37 is likewise unsupported. The burden of proof would be more difficult as Cowboy will need to show that there is no controversial information in any of the emails.

    Clarifying point: Cowboy's defense in post 44: "If not, we'll consider them retracted and I won't have to bother to support something that self evidently is." is incorrect. Both claims are separate, positive claims. Even if Ibelsd retracts his claim, Cowboy bears a burden to defend his claim in this thread.

    Use of either claim without support will be a rules violation.
    I have already stated that my claim is immaterial to the issue and whether it stands or is retracted is of no consequence. So, I see no need to formally retract it nor defend it. It was used strictly as bait. Once Cowboy accepted the bait, I have no reason to keep it on the hook. So, all that is really left is for Cowboy to defend his own claim or concede the point, namely that there is, indeed, something to investigate.

    However, just for Squatch, I'll submit the following:
    http://usherald.com/exposed-dnc-docu...nk-minorities/
    "Comer sent "(J)ust kill me now," over to Allen and he responded in kind with this bit, "LaQueenia is a NAME! I’m sorry, boo. I hope you got a raise with this title."

    "Another separate email referred to the DNC’s outreach to Hispanic and Latino, calling it "Taco Bell Engagement." "
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  7. #65
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    The industry already licenses itself. It views a journalism degree as a license that shows someone has been trained as a journalist. I am sure there are trade groups and such journalists belong to as well. Unfortunately, journalism isn't a science. There is no one proper way to be a journalist. Not all journalists are investigative reporters. Does anyone who chooses to investigate and report need to be a journalist? I just do not think licensing as you are describing it makes a lot of sense.
    Fair points. The only thing is that you can't have a degree revoked (nor should you).
    However a license could be. The former just says that you have completed certain courses, i don't think it is "quality control". The idea that it is, is linked to the idea that someone who is properly trained will do the job right before someone who isn't. It seems pretty obvious that completing a class is not the same as being qualified for a job especially in practice.

    As to the undefined nature, that goes back to the Degree issue. You need a license to be a private investigator, why not to be an "investigative journalist"?
    why can't there be a specific process given to that title? I mean we have a "scientific process", and we have journals and self checking. Why not the same for Investigative Journalists?

    I mean certainly, any hack with a pen and paper or access to the internet should be able to print and spread whatever "investigation" using whatever process they want, but we should have a higher standard or some professionals somewhere with checks and balances especially if they are going to be specifically protected.


    Licenses not the only way...
    I think a fine track would be to re-define how you can sue a newspaper for slander.
    Such that if they print on page 1 for 10 weeks in a row, and retract on page 38B one day.
    That should be slander.

    Or redefine their responsibilities to those they speak ill of.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  8. #66
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, just for Squatch, I'll submit the following:

    Thank you, Ibelsd.

    Point 1 is supported.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #67
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Because there seems to be some disagreement on what claims are outstanding, I'm going to clarify:

    1) Ibelsd's claim that the email leaks "expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections." in post 39 has not been directly supported. A link to any source noting that specific text would suffice as support.

    2) CowboyX's claim that "That's because there's nothing in them. There's nothing to investigate or to report." in post 37 is likewise unsupported. The burden of proof would be more difficult as Cowboy will need to show that there is no controversial information in any of the emails.

    Clarifying point: Cowboy's defense in post 44: "If not, we'll consider them retracted and I won't have to bother to support something that self evidently is." is incorrect. Both claims are separate, positive claims. Even if Ibelsd retracts his claim, Cowboy bears a burden to defend his claim in this thread.

    Use of either claim without support will be a rules violation.
    I retract my claim in post 37.

    I also added later that Ibelsd must support all of his claims in post 39.

    Too bad Ibelsd got it completely wrong: http://mediamatters.org/video/2016/0...-voters/211946

    "Fox News’ Liz MacDonald falsely claimed one of the leaked email from the Democratic National Committee (DNC) hack showed party officials referring to Latino voter engagement as “taco bowl engagement.” The actual email is discussing a new video “to mop up more taco bowl engagement, and demonstrate Trump isn’t actually trying.” The email is dated May 6, one day after Donald Trump’s “taco bowls” tweet on Cinco de Mayo. A Univision article highlighted the timing, and pointed out the DNC put out a video on May 6, slamming Trump’s offensive tweet. McDonald ignored the context of the email, calling it “basically a slam on Latino voters.” From the July 27 edition of Fox Business Network’s Varney & Co.:"

    https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7112

    "Hi everyone,

    Attached is a script for a new video we’d like to use to mop up some more taco bowl engagement, and demonstrate the Trump actually isn’t trying.

    Let me know if you have any flags and thank you!"
    Last edited by CowboyX; November 3rd, 2016 at 07:52 PM.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #68
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I retract my claim in post 37.
    Thank you. As you know, no such claim should be used in the future without support.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    I also added later that Ibelsd must support all of his claims in post 39.

    Could you detail with claims specifically that you would like him to support? Some of the comments in that thread are not claims, but personal opinions or suppositions.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #69
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Thank you. As you know, no such claim should be used in the future without support.
    Right, I had mistakenly thought it would have been automatically considered retracted, but no biggie I have no problem retracting things.

    ---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Could you detail with claims specifically that you would like him to support? Some of the comments in that thread are not claims, but personal opinions or suppositions. [/COLOR]
    Right.

    "They expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections. They expose how she has used her foundation as a pay-for-play enterprise, giving donors access to Secretary Hillary despite her promises to both Obama and the American people. He sees no issue when her high ranking people in her campaign admitted to starting violence at Trump rallies." Post 39

    In an effort to keep responses down from manifesto size I had hoped he would support them one by one. I think I said he could start with the first one but they all had to be supported.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #70
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "They expose how her advisers view minorities as pawn to help win elections.
    Which has been supported.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    They expose how she has used her foundation as a pay-for-play enterprise, giving donors access to Secretary Hillary despite her promises to both Obama and the American people.
    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    He sees no issue when her high ranking people in her campaign admitted to starting violence at Trump rallies." Post 39
    This isn't a positive claim, it is his opinion.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  13. #71
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]Which has been supported.
    and rebutted. I agree.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    This isn't a positive claim, it is his opinion.
    "when her high ranking people in her campaign admitted to starting violence at Trump rallies" is unsupported and I haven't had the chance at rebuttal otherwise how could he know what I see or don't see an issue with.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #72
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    Re: Repesentative Democracy Is Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "when her high ranking people in her campaign admitted to starting violence at Trump rallies" is unsupported and I haven't had the chance at rebuttal otherwise how could he know what I see or don't see an issue with.

    Ahh, you didn't include a quotation at the beginning of the quote, got it now. Agreed.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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