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  1. #1
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    Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Let me start by saying I was never going to vote trump. I'm firmly against his immigration policies, and his isolationist and protectionist tendencies.

    I read an article in the WSJ today: Conservative Christian Women Turn Away From Trump.

    I can't link it because Tapatalk isn't allowing- I'll attempt to at home.

    The primary reason is that they, the ones leaving, feel he is sexist.

    Not an unfair, and possibly not an untrue point. But what boggles my mind is the hypocrisy. Is it acceptable to insult Mexicans or Muslims but not women?

    I can understand "I don't want to be discriminated against " and even to some degree that you want to discriminate without being discriminated against yourself. But you're a hypocrite just the same, though logically it makes sense.



    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    --Article: http://www.wsj.com/articles/conserva...ump-1477504126
    Witty puns...

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by DEVIL PUP
    Is it acceptable to insult Mexicans or Muslims but not women?
    Well Radical Muslims from specific nations are a problem, and illegal immigration on the Mexican boarder is a problem, woman, not so much.
    As the songs says, I got problems but a woman ain't one. (paraphrased)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    As MT points out, it's not just discrimination, its also a perception as to whether that discrimination is justified. Some people think illegal immigrants are bad people if for no other reason that they are not following the law. America is a nation that claims to respect and love the law. Thus it's not nessisarily an unfare judgement. (Clearly I think it often goes well beyond that and is trule a matter of xenophobia.)

    Also, people just don't like being insulted. I'm sure there are lots of muslims in america that fear terrorists as much as anyone else, but when you single out all muslims, they take personal offense even though they may well be in favor of stringent entry requriements.

    But I've no doubt there is some hypocracy out there, it can be rampant among humanity.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  6. #4
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Obviously no one statement applies to everyone but what I think many people are missing or ignoring is that, if you believe his accusers, Trump has committed sexual assault. Committing sexual assault is definitely not the same thing as saying bad things about a certain group of people.

    Since women did not blow off instances of Trump's alleged sexual assault against others before condemning him for sexually assaulting women, I don't think a solid case for general hypocrisy is valid.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since women did not blow off instances of Trump's alleged sexual assault against others before condemning him for sexually assaulting women, I don't think a solid case for general hypocrisy is valid.
    I'm afraid I totally missed the idea you're expressing here. Trump allegedly sexually assaulted non-women?

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    I'm afraid I totally missed the idea you're expressing here. Trump allegedly sexually assaulted non-women?
    He didn't. Therefore there is no double standard or hypocrisy for women who have abandoned Trump after learning that he admitted to sexually assaulting women since they never gave him a prior pass for doing it to non-women (because he didn't do it to others).

    In other words, the OP's premise that women are now abandoning Trump because they've learned he has been insulting to women after they've tolerating him being insulting to Mexicans and others is a flawed premise because it misidentifies why women are now abandoning him. They aren't abandoning him for insulting women. They are abandoning him for assaulting women.
    Last edited by mican333; October 29th, 2016 at 08:15 AM.

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  10. #7
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    This is a silly post. There is nothing wrong with being against illegal immigration and radical Islamic terrorism (the true positions Trump holds, not the pretend stand liberals like to assign him.)

    Pretending that he said and meant something other then what he actually did and then repeating it endlessly is, indeed, a common liberal tactic that has been used to decent effect in the past. Ppl are starting to catch on to the liberal playbook and by not be fooled by it anymore.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    There is nothing wrong with being against illegal immigration and radical Islamic terrorism (the true positions Trump holds, not the pretend stand liberals like to assign him.)
    Which pretend stands are you referring to? And please only give me ones that liberals generally say he has. I admit that you can always find a small minority saying something completely ridiculous (and that goes for both liberals and conservatives).

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Pretending that he said and meant something other then what he actually did and then repeating it endlessly is, indeed, a common liberal tactic that has been used to decent effect in the past. Ppl are starting to catch on to the liberal playbook and by not be fooled by it anymore.
    I've certainly caught on to the conservative playbook which is to twist Trump's statements into something other than what he actually said.

    I've seen soooo many arguments regarding Trump's statements regarding kissing and grabbing women that pretend that the issue is just "locker room talk" and therefore ignoring that the issue is that he's admitted to sexually assaulting women.

    But then this "liberal playbook" and "conservative playbook" thing is just malarky (so I retract my "conservative playbook" comment and likewise reject your "liberal playbook" comment). BOTH sides are likely to employ the exact same tactics that the other does if the situations were reversed so I completely reject the notion that liberals or conservatives are more prone to try to distract from or explain away the foibles of their candidate or try to exaggerate the flaws of the opponent than the other.

    That's not to say that there aren't some actual differences between liberals and conservatives but explaining away and over exaggerating aren't actual differences although Trump's statements has required his supporters to do more "explaining away" this season because, compared to Clinton, Trump talks a lot more and is less cautious in what he says (that's not necessarily a criticism - I'd say it's one the reasons that he's had as much political success as he's had - he appears much more genuine than the average politician and many people have responded to that).

  12. #9
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    He didn't. Therefore there is no double standard or hypocrisy for women who have abandoned Trump after learning that he admitted to sexually assaulting women since they never gave him a prior pass for doing it to others (because he didn't do it to others).
    Still don't get it, or there's not much of a point there. If he never allegedly sexually assaulted any others, then women never had the opportunity to (not) express their hypocrisy by blowing off the instances of alleged assault against others and then condemning the alleged assault against women. Are you saying that women would have condemned his sexual assault of others if there had been such allegations? It seems merely speculative.
    The hypocrisy claimed in the OP is that they condemn the discrimination only when the demographic subject to the discrimination is their own.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Still don't get it, or there's not much of a point there. If he never allegedly sexually assaulted any others, then women never had the opportunity to (not) express their hypocrisy by blowing off the instances of alleged assault against others and then condemning the alleged assault against women. Are you saying that women would have condemned his sexual assault of others if there had been such allegations? It seems merely speculative.
    My point is that the reason that women are abandoning Trump now is because of sexual assault and there is no case to be made that this is an issue of hypocrisy or double-standard since there is no indication that they would have tolerated it if he did it to others.

    So there is no reality-based case to be made that women are being hypocritical in abandoning Trump now because what would have to have happened for this to be the case is something that did not happen. Yes, one can speculate what would happen but speculation is not a valid basis to claim that women are being hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    The hypocrisy claimed in the OP is that they condemn the discrimination only when the demographic subject to the discrimination is their own.
    Which seems to be a straw-man argument. I read the article and the objections to Trump are not even primarily "he discriminates against women" (no one said those words as far as I can tell). Many are turned off by him admitting that he has sexually assaulted women. Others feel that his apparent sexual immorality does not reflect their Christian values.

    Here is the article:

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/conserva...ump-1477504126

    And of course whether Trump even discriminates against Mexicans is certainly up for debate, especially amongst Trump supporters. I think many would argue that he is not against Mexicans in general but just against those who illegally enter the US. Hypocrisy is contradicting one's own beliefs so of course if one believes that Trump does not discriminate against Mexicans, then it's not hypocritical to abandon him for discriminating against one's own group.
    Last edited by mican333; October 29th, 2016 at 09:10 AM.

  14. #11
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which pretend stands are you referring to? And please only give me ones that liberals generally say he has. I admit that you can always find a small minority saying something completely ridiculous (and that goes for both liberals and conservatives).
    I'm generally not a fan of replying to responses that ask questions that have obvious answers, but SPECIFICALLY with regard to my point, he has been demonized for being Islamophobic and Xenophobic for the aforementioned positions. Both are false, but cute narratives that closely follow the liberal playbook concerning attacking the individual rather than ideas.




    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've certainly caught on to the conservative playbook which is to twist Trump's statements into something other than what he actually said.
    Negative. Liberals twist his words to fit their narrative and then Conservatives correct they with what he said and meant. Liberals aren't the most subjective ppl on earth. Liberals have been playing the, "let's twist his words and then attack Conservatives for correcting us and pretend that they are having to defend all of his comments and positions" game. It's old and tired and doesn't have the same effect anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've seen soooo many arguments regarding Trump's statements regarding kissing and grabbing women that pretend that the issue is just "locker room talk" and therefore ignoring that the issue is that he's admitted to sexually assaulting women.
    Locker room talk is exactly that. Two guys talking **** about women in the abstract. No different than what any other guy or girl does. Next "scandal"

    I find it interesting how the left attacks Trump for talk about choose to turn a blind eye to Killary Klinton's numerous illegal, corrupt and immoral actions that are well known. I view actions above words. Most rational ppl do too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then this "liberal playbook" and "conservative playbook" thing is just malarky (so I retract my "conservative playbook" comment and likewise reject your "liberal playbook" comment). BOTH sides are likely to employ the exact same tactics that the other does if the situations were reversed so I completely reject the notion that liberals or conservatives are more prone to try to distract from or explain away the foibles of their candidate or try to exaggerate the flaws of the opponent than the other.
    What flaws of Killarys (Lord knows there are a huge amount to choose from) are exaggerated?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's not to say that there aren't some actual differences between liberals and conservatives but explaining away and over exaggerating aren't actual differences although Trump's statements has required his supporters to do more "explaining away" this season because, compared to Clinton, Trump talks a lot more and is less cautious in what he says (that's not necessarily a criticism - I'd say it's one the reasons that he's had as much political success as he's had - he appears much more genuine than the average politician and many people have responded to that).

    *****I'm responding in piece meal. Please be patient with your response

  15. #12
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I'm generally not a fan of replying to responses that ask questions that have obvious answers, but SPECIFICALLY with regard to my point, he has been demonized for being Islamophobic and Xenophobic for the aforementioned positions. Both are false, but cute narratives that closely follow the liberal playbook concerning attacking the individual rather than ideas.
    I asked you what stands liberals have claimed he has that are false. Being Islamophobic is not a stand but a characteristic.

    And it's hardly a flat-out lie to forward that he is Islamiphobic considering things that he's said. For example:

    “I think Islam hates us,” Trump told CNN’s Anderson Cooper. “There’s something there that — there’s a tremendous hatred there. There’s a tremendous hatred. We have to get to the bottom of it. There’s an unbelievable hatred of us.”

    Trump was responding to a question by Cooper about whether he believed the West is at war with Islam. Cooper asked Trump if he was referring to Islam at large or to radical elements within the faith.

    “You’re going to have to figure that out,” Trump said. “But there’s a tremendous hatred and we have to be very vigilant, we have to be very careful and we can’t allow people coming into this country who have this hatred of the United States, and of people who are not Muslim. “


    And he also suggested that we don't allow any Muslim immigrants into the country. It's hardly a delusion or a lie to interpret him as being Islamiphobic based on that those things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Negative. Liberals twist his words to fit their narrative and then Conservatives correct they with what he said and meant. Liberals aren't the most subjective ppl on earth. Liberals have been playing the, "let's twist his words and then attack Conservatives for correcting us and pretend that they are having to defend all of his comments and positions" game. It's old and tired and doesn't have the same effect anymore.
    And that charge is without any support and, from all appearance, just liberal bashing. If you want to support that claim, go for it. Otherwise it is ignored as the baseless biased claim that it appears to be.

    I could take that claim, change the word "conservative" and "liberal" around and it would be just as supported as you claim (which is not supported at all).




    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Locker room talk is exactly that. Two guys talking **** about women in the abstract. No different than what any other guy or girl does.
    It's not in the abstract. Trump CLEARLY explained how he actually approaches women in the recording and what he does to them.

    I've certainly heard my share of sexual boasting and crude, even disrespectful talk, from guys and I've never heard a guy brag about kissing and groping women without their consent and if I did, I would definitely hold it against him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I find it interesting how the left attacks Trump for talk about choose to turn a blind eye to Killary Klinton's numerous illegal, corrupt and immoral actions that are well known. I view actions above words. Most rational ppl do too.
    And Trump admitted to taking the action of kissing and groping women without their consent (and likewise many women have said he did it) so just saying it's about words is not rational. Also Trump admitted to intentionally walking in on undressed beauty pageant contestants for his enjoyment and likewise contestants have said he's done it.

    And where are you getting your information on Hillary's supposed deeds? Shall I assume the sources are more or less alt-right conspiracy theory sites? I'm not saying that they are but I haven't heard much confirming these claims from standard news sources.

    But whatever your sources are, are they more credible that BOTH Trump and his own victims confirming that he's sexually assaulted women? It really looks like your acceptance and rejection of claims regarding these two candidates is based on political bias as opposed to the strengths and weaknesses of the sources.

    I mean when someone says "I've done these things to women" and many women say "He's done these things to me", I think it's pretty solid evidence that he's done at least some of those things. If you don't care, so be it. But I see no valid basis to think that they didn't actually happen at all.

  16. #13
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Many are turned off by him admitting that he has sexually assaulted women.
    This whole take on "sexual assault" is horribly biased against men. Basically a man can have an entire sexual encounter with a woman, with her participating. Then later she says "I didn't want it" and now it's sexual assault. The woman doesn't have to even say "no" in peoples eyes anymore.
    It's retroactive attack on men because they are men. It isn't just, and it isn't sexual assault.

    Which brings us to what trump "admitted" to. That is.. that woman don't care. IE they are inviting it.
    That is not sexual assault, that is what you get when you hang out with whores.

    None of this is a defense of Trumps character, it is a defense against the baseless accusation of "sexual assault".
    Look no further, his last "accuser" is at worst someone that was propositioned for money through a third person. (remember the porn star). It's nothing even close to "sexual assault", yet she is quickly lumped in to fulfill a narrative.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This whole take on "sexual assault" is horribly biased against men. Basically a man can have an entire sexual encounter with a woman, with her participating. Then later she says "I didn't want it" and now it's sexual assault. The woman doesn't have to even say "no" in peoples eyes anymore.
    It's retroactive attack on men because they are men. It isn't just, and it isn't sexual assault.
    If woman consents before and then later says that she didn't consent, she's lying and therefore making a false accusation of sexual assault. So no, it's not sexual assault if she does that - it's a false accusation of sexual assault, technically no different than if she falsely claimed that he stole money from her purse (which would be a false accusation of theft).

    So the fact that people can lie about others committing a crime against them reveals absolutely no flaw in that activity, when it's actually happened, being considered a crime.

    So there's absolutely nothing wrong with sexual assault being a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which brings us to what trump "admitted" to. That is.. that woman don't care. IE they are inviting it.
    That is not sexual assault, that is what you get when you hang out with whores.
    He didn't say that they invited it. In fact, he said the opposite - that he does it without an invitation. And he also says that many let him get away with it (so there was no prior invitation but she was alright with it happening once it did happen). But then there are women who did object to it and those are the ones who are accusing him.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    None of this is a defense of Trumps character, it is a defense against the baseless accusation of "sexual assault".
    When Trump says he does such things to women and certain women say that he did it to them, then it's hardly a baseless accusation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Look no further, his last "accuser" is at worst someone that was propositioned for money through a third person. (remember the porn star). It's nothing even close to "sexual assault", yet she is quickly lumped in to fulfill a narrative.
    She said he grabbed and kissed her without her consent so she fits right in with the rest of the accusers. The fact that he also offered her money to sleep with him does not change that.
    Last edited by mican333; October 29th, 2016 at 11:20 AM.

  18. #15
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If woman consents before and then later says that she didn't consent, she's lying and therefore making a false accusation of sexual assault. So no, it's not sexual assault if she does that - it's a false accusation of sexual assault, technically no different than if she falsely claimed that he stole money from her purse (which would be a false accusation of theft).

    So the fact that people can lie about others committing a crime against them reveals absolutely no flaw in that activity, when it's actually happened, being considered a crime.

    So there's absolutely nothing wrong with sexual assault being a crime.
    I never suggested that it shouldn't be a crime. I am talking about what activity is called sexual assault by the media and the masses.
    You yourself think Donald admitted to sexually assaulting women, when in his own words "they don't care". IE they are inviting it.
    So you have done exactly what I said, and exactly what you have described and admitted is not sexual assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    He didn't say that they invited it. In fact, he said the opposite - that he does it without an invitation. And he also says that many let him get away with it (so there was no prior invitation but she was alright with it happening once it did happen). But then there are women who did object to it and those are the ones who are accusing him.
    Don't confuse examples. Donald in the bus was not referring to the woman who alleged sexual assault. they are not directly connected.
    If they don't care then they are not, not consenting. It doesn't fall into "sexual assault".
    For it to be sexual assault the woman must specifically not consent. Me mistakenly kissing a woman who I thought desired it, or was o.k. with it.. is not sexual assault. (which is at worst what Donald admitted to his locker room talk).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    When Trump says he does such things to women and certain women say that he did it to them, then it's hardly a baseless accusation.
    Actually, it is.
    Because it doesn't follow that because he does X to some woman, that he did X with "that" woman. She does not gain credibility like that.
    For example.
    Men have been on the moon.
    I claim that " I have been on the moon".
    Is my claim now credible? or baseless?

    Porn star X has had sex with lots of men.
    I claim to have had sex with porn star X.

    Is my claim credible or baseless?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    She said he grabbed and kissed her without her consent so she fits right in with the rest of the accusers. The fact that he also offered her money to sleep with him does not change that.
    What do you mean "grabbed"? Like her hand, or ass, her vagina, her hair?

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/22/politi...jessica-drake/
    O she claims he "hugged and Kissed" her without consent.

    ""He grabbed each of us tightly, in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking permission," "

    Don't let the media guide you by the nose with it's loose language. "Hugged" becomes "grabbed" because it sounds worse.

    Sorry that is not "sexual assault" and you have been duped by the media to think it is. And it hardly fits in with his claim of "grabbing woman by the vagina" and it doesn't fit right in with any other woman claiming he grouped them on a public plane.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about.

    She isn't describing sexual assault. Unwanted advances are not automatically sexual assault.
    If it were not the case then every husband would be guilty of sexual assault under the "legal" definition. Simply by hugging and kissing his wife when she has not "explicitly" said she is welcoming it or before he asks.


    Also, it is disputed that any actual kissing or grouping occurred in any case.. so there is that.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I never suggested that it shouldn't be a crime. I am talking about what activity is called sexual assault by the media and the masses.
    As far as I know, it's ALWAYS been con-consensual sexual activity and that has not changed.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You yourself think Donald admitted to sexually assaulting women, when in his own words "they don't care". IE they are inviting it.
    So you have done exactly what I said, and exactly what you have described and admitted is not sexual assault.
    "They don't care" and "they are inviting it" are NOT the same thing.

    I don't care if you show up at my house is not the same thing as I have invited you to my house.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Don't confuse examples. Donald in the bus was not referring to the woman who alleged sexual assault. they are not directly connected.
    He was referring to what he does to women in general so it pertains to every woman that he has kissed and groped, including his accusers (assuming the accusations are correct).



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If they don't care then they are not, not consenting. It doesn't fall into "sexual assault".
    For it to be sexual assault the woman must specifically not consent. Me mistakenly kissing a woman who I thought desired it, or was o.k. with it
    And there is nothing in his comments that indicated that he thought they wanted him to kiss them prior to him kissing them. He said "I just start kissing them". "I just start" indicates that there is no prior activity before one starts, such as some kind subtle, or not so subtle, invitation to be kissed.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Actually, it is.
    Because it doesn't follow that because he does X to some woman, that he did X with "that" woman. She does not gain credibility like that.
    For example.
    Men have been on the moon.
    I claim that " I have been on the moon".
    Is my claim now credible? or baseless?
    Bad example. You picked something very unlikely (you going to the moon) so based on how unlikely that activity is, I would doubt you did it no matter who claimed you did it.

    But if it's something more mundane, like claiming you went to a movie last Saturday and then someone said they saw you in a movie theater last Saturday, I would think that you probably went to a movie last Saturday.

    As far as Trump aggressively hitting on women, I find the scenario very credible. Also the fact that he admitted to walking into pageant contestant dressing rooms unannounced and enjoying seeing them undressed indicates that he is the kind of person who would act like that.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Porn star X has had sex with lots of men.
    I claim to have had sex with porn star X.

    Is my claim credible or baseless?
    Again, bad example. Since I have no reason to believe your claim, I would figure out the odds that this woman has sex with one particular person. Even if she had 10,000 lovers, the odds of any one person having sex with her are very slim. So based on that, I would say odds are your claim is unlikely. Also, from what I know of you, the claim is not credible. I'm not insulting you as a liar but complementing you as a person who would not have sex with her even if you did have the opportunity.

    So my basis for reject your claim does not apply to Trump's accusers and therefore the example fails.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What do you mean "grabbed"? Like her hand, or ass, her vagina, her hair?

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/22/politi...jessica-drake/
    O she claims he "hugged and Kissed" her without consent.
    No, she said he GRABBED her. To quote:

    "He grabbed each of us tightly, in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking permission,"


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Don't let the media guide you by the nose with it's loose language. "Hugged" becomes "grabbed" because it sounds worse.
    It's not an either-or. I consider a hug to be a brief consensual embrace. Grabbing is, well, grabbing someone - then you can pull that person into a hug and kiss them. And if they don't consent, it is sexual assault.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And it hardly fits in with his claim of "grabbing woman by the vagina" and it doesn't fit right in with any other woman claiming he grouped them on a public plane.
    Right. Apparently in that instance, he didn't grab them by the vagina. It doesn't mean that he didn't do what those women claim in that situation.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    She isn't describing sexual assault. Unwanted advances are not automatically sexual assault.
    No, but non-consensual grabbing, hugging, and kissing are.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also, it is disputed that any actual kissing or grouping occurred in any case.. so there is that.
    Right. Trump disputed himself since he said he does do it and he also says he doesn't do it. The time he admitted it was when he didn't know he was being recorded and therefore was a candid statement. The time he denies it is when he would lose a lot and probably get in legal trouble if he were to concede it.

    And several witnesses say that he did do it. So I think it makes sense to trust the candid Trump and the witnesses than the Trump who has a lot of motivation to deny it even if he did do it.

  20. #17
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    As far as I know, it's ALWAYS been con-consensual sexual activity and that has not changed.
    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    "They don't care" and "they are inviting it" are NOT the same thing.

    I don't care if you show up at my house is not the same thing as I have invited you to my house.
    But me being in your house and you not caring is not the same as "breaking and entering".
    nor would you be justified if you shot me, and told the Jury.. "I didn't care that he was in my house".

    That isn't how crime works.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    He was referring to what he does to women in general so it pertains to every woman that he has kissed and groped, including his accusers (assuming the accusations are correct).
    Not true. He was referring to that attitude of woman towards famous people.
    He was not recounting exploits. You have to read that in.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And there is nothing in his comments that indicated that he thought they wanted him to kiss them prior to him kissing them. He said "I just start kissing them".
    Referencing how attracted he is to woman. Not necessarily a claim to actual action.

    That is why "locker room talk" is not like an admission of criminal activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Bad example. You picked something very unlikely (you going to the moon) so based on how unlikely that activity is, I would doubt you did it no matter who claimed you did it.
    wrong.. Your focusing in on the wrong aspects of the example.
    We are examine "baseless" ness of a claim.
    And it's relation to donalds claim. Here the number of woman that Donald actually kissed and groped may be equivalent to the number of people who landed on the moon.

    What your really admitting to is that there is more information needed regardless. Like your suddenly really interested if I even had anything to do with nasa, then probably the timing would be an issue you would be interested in.
    And until then you would agree that my claim is fairly baseless.

    Which is my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But if it's something more mundane, like claiming you went to a movie last Saturday and then someone said they saw you in a movie theater last Saturday, I would think that you probably went to a movie last Saturday.
    NO one is claiming to have seen Donals act that way. I'm not claiming to have seen someone go to the moon.
    I'm claiming to have gone to the moon.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    As far as Trump aggressively hitting on women, I find the scenario very credible. Also the fact that he admitted to walking into pageant contestant dressing rooms unannounced and enjoying seeing them undressed indicates that he is the kind of person who would act like that.
    Walking in on dressing woman in that manner is not the same as groping them.
    And society doesn't treat it that way iether. No one gives two flips that female reporters are waltzed into mens dressing rooms after football games.
    And there are instances of men's naked bodies finding their way to sports news stories.. because they are in the background.

    Are all those female reporters now sexual predators? Are they all now likely to sexual assault men? (I bet they hugged a man once without asking)

    Double standard by the media and the people.. It's rejected sir. It's a load of false surprise and a sudden development of morals that they think is some sort of high ground. When a female reporter is drawn a quartered like the media is trying to do to trump then I will hear their tail of surprise and indignation. .. I wont' hold my breath.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, bad example. Your scenario, on the face of it, is unlikely. Even a porn start who has lots of sex is very unlikely to have had sex with any one particular person. Also, since I know you well enough to figure that you wouldn't care to have sex with such a person, I don't think you would even if you had the chance. So again, my doubts to your claim are well-founded.
    Well, that does break the example as you know me better than you or I know trump, or the accusers.
    To us it's all hear say.

    My problem is with the assertion of criminal nature. Society doesn't find these things criminal. (see sports reporters vs what trump did). My problem is with the war on men nature of the charges and the level of evidence accepted. My problem is with the otherwise baseless nature of the claims that are being taken seriously. And I have a huge problem with the sudden development by the media of some sense of "morals". It's laughable.

    I mean these same people put Mike Tyson on the stage at a major event, after he was convicted of rape. Not hear say, not just accused at a politically convenient time.. Convicted, served time rapist. What did we hear about that? Not a damn thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, she said he GRABBED her. To quote:

    "He grabbed each of us tightly, in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking permission,"
    Yea because when you hug someone, you are grabbing them. "Grabbed in a hug".
    That in now way implies by the vagina, or groping etc. It's "trumped" up. and should be dismissed. It is a play on words to make it appear to be sexual assault, when it's just a hug.
    Also, there were 3 of them there. Like he sexually assaulted on and the 2 other stood there and watched without a reaction.
    Then he went down the line? Clearly this was much more of a social event otherwise they would have made a scene. The fact that they didn't is PROOF that his actions were socially acceptable for the occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    It's not an either-or. I consider a hug to be a brief consensual embrace. Grabbing is, well, grabbing someone - then you can pull that person into a hug and kiss them. And if they don't consent, it is sexual assault.
    Nope, not at all. Such a lose use of sexual assault makes us all guilty. Every person you ever hugged without 1) Specifically asking and 2) When they really didn't want to hug.
    You have sexually assaulted.
    I'm sorry, I just don't find that to be a very reasonable standard or a very appalling event.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Right. Apparently in that instance, he didn't grab them by the vagina. It doesn't mean that he didn't do what those women claim in that situation.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about.
    But your using his words as an admission of a crime.Then applying it to things that
    1) aren't crimes
    2) aren't related to the admission.
    3) in many cases are socially acceptable for the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, but non-consensual grabbing, hugging, and kissing are.
    If they say "no" or "stop" or otherwise make it clear.
    Otherwise I'm simply not interested nor do I find it appauling or criminal activity.

    Tell me. have you ever hugged someone without asking first?
    Has everyone you ever hugged desired you to hug them, or given their expressed consent?

    If you say yes to both of those, I'd think you are a liar.
    If you say no, then you are admitting to what you call "sexual assault".

    am I really supposed to be appauled by you now? or you me?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Right. Trump disputed himself since he said he does do it and he also says he doesn't do it. The time he admitted it was when he didn't know he was being recorded and therefore was a candid statement. The time he denies it is when he would lose a lot and probably get in legal trouble if he were to concede it.

    And several witnesses say that he did do it. So I think it makes sense to trust the candid Trump and the witnesses than the Trump who has a lot of motivation to deny it even if he did do it.
    Several witnesses to what? The walking into the dressing room? I agree to that.
    Sorry our society wants to mix the sexes so.. I don't care about that. or rather, I will not hear any faigned indignation from a society that wants men in girls bathrooms.

    Other than that, I haven't heard any "eye witnesses" other than the accusers. I have heard some eyewitnesses that it didn't happen in one instance, but that guy was evil so no one cares.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  21. #18
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
    I thought you were asking what qualifies as sexual assault. I was telling you.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But me being in your house and you not caring is not the same as "breaking and entering".
    nor would you be justified if you shot me, and told the Jury.. "I didn't care that he was in my house".

    That isn't how crime works.
    I didn't say anything in particular was a crime. I'm saying that you are wrong that "not caring" is the same as "inviting". If Trump kisses a woman without her consent but she doesn't care, it does not mean that she invited/consented.

    And to be clear, I am not arguing that Trump should be arrested or prosecuted for anything in particular (not saying the opposite either - it's just not what my argument is focusing on). But assuming one is bothered by him forcing himself on women without prior consent, then one should be bothered by Trump's admitted behavior.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not true. He was referring to that attitude of woman towards famous people.
    He was not recounting exploits. You have to read that in.
    How else does one read "I just start kissing them" as anything other than saying that he takes the action of kissing women? OF COURSE he was recounting exploits. He was explaining what he does.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Referencing how attracted he is to woman. Not necessarily a claim to actual action.

    That is why "locker room talk" is not like an admission of criminal activity.
    Again. "I just start kissing them". It's something that he does. He goes up and starts kissing women whether they want him to or not. If there was any prior consent, he would have said it differently, such as "They want me to kiss them so I start kissing them".



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    wrong.. Your focusing in on the wrong aspects of the example.
    We are examine "baseless" ness of a claim.
    And it's relation to donalds claim. Here the number of woman that Donald actually kissed and groped may be equivalent to the number of people who landed on the moon.

    What your really admitting to is that there is more information needed regardless. Like your suddenly really interested if I even had anything to do with nasa, then probably the timing would be an issue you would be interested in.
    And until then you would agree that my claim is fairly baseless.

    Which is my point.
    I might need more information to convict in a court of law. But when HE says "I do this to women" and a bunch of women say "He did that to me", I think the claim that he did that to some women is not a baseless claim. There is definitely a valid reason to think he likely did at least some of the things he's accused of.

    If you claimed that you were on the moon and a bunch of witnesses said that you were on the moon and I was to COMPLETELY IGNORE all other information regarding the likelihood that you were on the moon, then the claim that you were on the moon would not be baseless.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    NO one is claiming to have seen Donals act that way. I'm not claiming to have seen someone go to the moon.
    I'm claiming to have gone to the moon.
    Around a dozen women have claimed to have seen Donald act that way.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Walking in on dressing woman in that manner is not the same as groping them.
    And society doesn't treat it that way iether. No one gives two flips that female reporters are waltzed into mens dressing rooms after football games.
    And there are instances of men's naked bodies finding their way to sports news stories.. because they are in the background.

    Are all those female reporters now sexual predators? Are they all now likely to sexual assault men? (I bet they hugged a man once without asking)
    This is pretty much irrelevant to whether Trump is being a total creep when he's walking into pageant dressing rooms for the purpose of seeing the contestants undressed.

    I can point out the differences between what you forwarding regarding female reporters and what Trump was doing but again, it's irrelevant to whether Trump is being a huge creep. Either:

    1. There is a valid difference and the reporter is not being a creep also
    2. There is no valid difference and the reporter is being a creep and yet we tolerate it and therefore are engaging in a double-standard by accepting it.

    But regardless of whether we accept 1 or 2, Trump is still being a huge creep. Whether there is a double-standard or not regarding the female reporter does not change this.

    So we do accept that Trump is being a creep in regards to the dressing rooms, right? And therefore the notion that he's also being a creep when dealing with other women that he finds attractive is not much of a stretch, which gives credibility to his accusers. I mean if they were accusing someone who had a sterling reputation, their accusations would indeed hold less water. But since they are accusing a guy who is a creep, their accusations seem more credible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My problem is with the assertion of criminal nature. Society doesn't find these things criminal. (see sports reporters vs what trump did). My problem is with the war on men nature of the charges and the level of evidence accepted. My problem is with the otherwise baseless nature of the claims that are being taken seriously.
    I find the notion that the claims are baseless to be ridiculous and therefore reject that assertion. Plus I don't think Trump has been convicted in the media. They are reporting what he said and what his accusers have said but I haven't heard them say that he's guilty of anything in particular.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And I have a huge problem with the sudden development by the media of some sense of "morals". It's laughable.

    I mean these same people put Mike Tyson on the stage at a major event, after he was convicted of rape. Not hear say, not just accused at a politically convenient time.. Convicted, served time rapist. What did we hear about that? Not a damn thing.
    First off, The Media is not some monolithic entity. It's made up of a bunch of people with varying attitudes so any particular incident is not necessarily telling of the media in general. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding Mike Tyson so I have comment on that.

    This seems rather off-topic anyway.





    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yea because when you hug someone, you are grabbing them. "Grabbed in a hug".
    That in now way implies by the vagina, or groping etc. It's "trumped" up. and should be dismissed. It is a play on words to make it appear to be sexual assault, when it's just a hug.
    Also, there were 3 of them there. Like he sexually assaulted on and the 2 other stood there and watched without a reaction.
    Then he went down the line? Clearly this was much more of a social event otherwise they would have made a scene. The fact that they didn't is PROOF that his actions were socially acceptable for the occasion.
    No it's not. Just because one tolerates inappropriate behavior in the moment that it's occurring does not mean that the behavior is appropriate.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Nope, not at all. Such a lose use of sexual assault makes us all guilty. Every person you ever hugged without 1) Specifically asking and 2) When they really didn't want to hug.
    You have sexually assaulted.
    I'm sorry, I just don't find that to be a very reasonable standard or a very appalling event.
    I never said that any hug without prior consent is sexual assault so that's not a definition.

    A big issue is whether the activity is done in a sexual manner. Is the person doing it for immediate sexual gratification or as a means to gain more sexual activity in the future (as in the kissing is intended as foreplay in the hope of it leading to sexual intercourse in the future). So giving someone a friendly hug definitely would not qualify.

    And what the woman accused Trump of doing - grabbing, hugging, kissing was apparently done for Trump's sexual pleasure. Again, he said it himself. He's attracted to beautiful women so he just starts kissing them.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But your using his words as an admission of a crime.Then applying it to things that
    1) aren't crimes
    2) aren't related to the admission.
    3) in many cases are socially acceptable for the event.
    I never said that he committed a crime. I'm not saying he didn't either. I'm not arguing this from a legal perspective at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If they say "no" or "stop" or otherwise make it clear.
    Otherwise I'm simply not interested nor do I find it appauling or criminal activity.
    Then you aren't particularly interested in whether Trump grabs, kisses, and hugs women without their consent.

    And one does not have to refrain from saying "no" for it to be non-consensual. As an example, if one finds a woman sleeping and starts kissing her, she didn't say no but the kiss was clearly not consensual. And likewise when Trump says "I just start kissing them" he means he kisses them before they give any indication of whether they want to be kissed so the kisses are not consensual.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Tell me. have you ever hugged someone without asking first?
    Has everyone you ever hugged desired you to hug them, or given their expressed consent?

    If you say yes to both of those, I'd think you are a liar.
    If you say no, then you are admitting to what you call "sexual assault".
    I can say that I've never hugged someone without their consent. While I've certainly hugged people without saying "May I hug you?" beforehand, when I initiate a hug, I open my arms wide to indicate that I intend to hug them. Then I wait to see if they reciprocate in some fashion - either by opening their arms and/or moving in for a hug (and therefore consent to being hugged). If they do neither, then I know they don't want me to hug them so I don't attempt to put my arms around them. And I've been turned down for a hug on at least one occasion I can recall and I put my arms down when I saw that she didn't want me to hug her. And I see no reason for you to think that I'm lying about this.

    And as I said before, the activity has to for sexual gratification before it can be considered sexual assault so even a non-consensual hug is not necessarily sexual assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Several witnesses to what?
    Several witnesses to Trump kissing/groping women without their consent. The women who are accusing him are these witnesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The walking into the dressing room? I agree to that.
    Sorry our society wants to mix the sexes so.. I don't care about that. or rather, I will not hear any faigned indignation from a society that wants men in girls bathrooms.
    For those of us who recognize the very pertinent difference between walking in on undressed girls for one's own sexual gratification and people using the bathroom that best aligns with their gender identification even if someone else is not comfortable (but really, I think generally people will be most comfortable with what appears to the a man using the men's room regardless of "actual" gender), we will express outrage. If you don't care about Trump walking on undressed women, then I guess that's just something we disagree about. I will take the position that doing that is highly immoral and if were my daughter in the dressing room, I would probably be looking for the creep that did that. But that's just me, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Other than that, I haven't heard any "eye witnesses" other than the accusers.
    Let's not forget Trump himself. He said he does such things. And the accusers are witnesses. So there are witnesses.
    Last edited by mican333; October 29th, 2016 at 05:10 PM.

  22. #19
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again. "I just start kissing them". It's something that he does. He goes up and starts kissing women whether they want him to or not. If there was any prior consent, he would have said it differently, such as "They want me to kiss them so I start kissing them".
    There is no comment on their desire, other than they are fine with it, because they let you do it.
    Him saying he just starts to kiss them, is not specific enough to claim it is sexual assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I might need more information to convict in a court of law. But when HE says "I do this to women" and a bunch of women say "He did that to me", I think the claim that he did that to some women is not a baseless claim. There is definitely a valid reason to think he likely did at least some of the things he's accused of.
    Sure from a personal opinion. You can think whatever you like. For whatever reason. He has hair like a pervert.. so he must be one. Like those pervert beard people.
    Doesn't mean you have logic and reason on your side for your opinions.

    I point out that you may be able to personally asses if an action is in character or not, but it doesn't substantiate that the event actually occurred. I think my case for that and pointing out the flaw in your logic has held up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If you claimed that you were on the moon and a bunch of witnesses said that you were on the moon and I was to COMPLETELY IGNORE all other information regarding the likelihood that you were on the moon, then the claim that you were on the moon would not be baseless.
    there are no witnesses. (see later point on that)

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Around a dozen women have claimed to have seen Donald act that way.
    No, a dozen women are claiming to have gone to the moon.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    That is a complete change of the subject. This debate is not about the supposed double standard of men and women in the others locker rooms.

    My point is that Donald's behavior regarding the pageant contestant's locker room gives credibility to the notion that he takes advantage of women for his own sexual pleasure. He admitted to invading various women's privacy so he can see them naked. It adds credibility to the notion that he behaves in a sexually inappropriate manner towards attractive women.
    No it doesn't, to think it does is the double standard that I pointed out.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I find the notion that the claims are baseless to be ridiculous and therefore reject that assertion. Plus I don't think Trump has been convicted in the media. They are reporting what he said and what his accusers have said but I haven't heard them say that he's guilty of anything in particular.
    Well then you didn't watch the debate where he was asked if he still sexually assaultes woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    First off, The Media is not some monolithic entity. It's made up of a bunch of people with varying attitudes. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding Mike Tyson so I have comment on that.

    This seems rather off-topic anyway.
    it's fairly relevant, especially when the media is silent about a convicted rapist in public events, but wants to rail against hear say.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No it's not. Just because one tolerates inappropriate behavior does not mean that the behavior is appropriate.
    No, their actions or lack there of at the time is evidence that he acted within the social structure he was in.
    You don't get to come back years later and raise a stink, if you stood in line and participated at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I never said that any hug without prior consent is sexual assault so that's not a definition.
    He hugged them, and you called it sexual assault then. Or at least, your accepting their accusation of sexual assault.
    The media is including them in the list of sexual assault accusers.
    Sooo..

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A big issue is whether the activity is done in a sexual manner. Is the person doing it for immediate sexual gratification or as a means to gain more sexual activity in the future (as in the kissing is intended as foreplay in the hope of it leading to sexual intercourse in the future). So giving someone a friendly hug definitely would not qualify.
    Support or retract.
    Explain how the definition specifically excludes that. Explain how the hugs and kisses donal supposedly handed out to porn star and her friends does violate it because it is described with "grabbing in a hug".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And what the woman accused Trump of doing - grabbing, hugging, kissing was apparently done for Trump's sexual pleasure. Again, he said it himself. He's attracted to beautiful women so he just starts kissing them.
    Pure speculation. Also it wasn't "grabbing and hugging" it was "grabbed in a hug". That is one act, not two. And specifically it is distortion by the media of a normal social activity (evidence already offered). It's a way the media slanders people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Then you aren't particularly interested in whether Trump grabs, kisses, and hugs women without their consent.
    not the way the media uses it, or how you have generally used it here. no I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And one does not have to refrain from saying "no" for it to be non-consensual. As an example, if one finds a woman sleeping and starts kissing her, she didn't say no but the kiss was clearly not consensual. And likewise when Trump says "I just start kissing them" he means he kisses them before they give any indication of whether they want to be kissed so the kisses are not consensual.
    That is because that adds the element of ability to say no. neither would I hold a woman who is gagged to the same standard I am putting forward.
    If you can say no, and you don't, then you are consenting. you don't get to willfully remain silent, and say you did not consent. Silence and not fighting back is called participation.

    I mean, if you kiss a girl and then slowly undress her, and then begin to have sex with her, remaining silent the whole time.
    She doesn't get to come back 20 years later and say you raped her. She doesn't get to say she didn't invite the actions. That simply isn't how it works. Nor should it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I can say that I've never hugged someone without their consent. While I've certainly hugged people without saying "May I hug you?" beforehand, when I initiate a hug, I open my arms wide to indicate that I intend to hug them. Then I wait to see if they reciprocate in some fashion - either by opening their arms or moving in for a hug. If they do neither, then I know they don't want me to hug them and therefore I don't attempt to put my arms around them. And I've been turned down for a hug on at least one occasion I can recall.

    And as I said before, the activity has to for sexual gratification before it can be considered sexual assault.
    Support or retract that "for personal sexual gratification" is relevan to the definition of "sexual assault".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Several witnesses to Trump kissing/groping women without their consent. The women who are accusing him are these witnesses.
    No, they are the accusers. witnesses would be someone else who saw it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    For those of us who recognize the very pertinent difference between walking in on undressed girls for one's own sexual gratification and people using the bathroom that best aligns with their gender identification even if someone else is not comfortable (but really, I think generally people will be most comfortable with what appears to the a man using the men's room regardless of "actual" gender), we will express outrage. If you don't care about Trump walking on undressed women, then I guess that's just something we disagree about. I will take the position that doing that is highly immoral and if were my daughter in the dressing room, I would probably be looking for the creep that did that. But that's just me, I guess.
    Society doesn't get to draw arbitrary lines in that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Let's not forget Trump himself. He said he does such things. And the accusers are witnesses. So there are witnesses.
    There is some confusion on which case your speaking of. I agree that there are "witnesses" to the locker room walk through.
    I have objected to that on social norms grounds, and I challenge people who are insenced at that (like the media) to do a bit of self examination at their own apparent double standard. Specifically the media. Specifically people who are advocating dicks in womans locker rooms and bathrooms (people conviently forget that such rules would apply to locker rooms as well as bathrooms).
    Our society is clearly pushing for inter gender locker room mingling. So I'm not very receptive of their cries of fowl.


    ------------
    My biggest disagreement is with your use of the term "sexual assaulted". You have introduced the idea that sexual intent is necessary. I believe you have done this to arbitrarily limit and exclude normal social interactions. I believe this is a horrible mistake on your part, injecting a meaning to adhoc avoid my point. unless you are going to maintain that Donald in kissing and hugging those three girls intended to initiate sexual activity, or for his own sexual gratification. (Above what is you know,.. inherent to men hugging a pretty girl). I'm just curious how willing you are to indite all those poor guys stuck in the friend zone, hugging that 'friend" without asking for their own sexual gratification.

    http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/ha...rsity-virginia
    School includes hugs in sexual assault definition.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  23. #20
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    Re: Women Abandoning Trump Are Hypocritical

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is no comment on their desire, other than they are fine with it, because they let you do it.
    Him saying he just starts to kiss them, is not specific enough to claim it is sexual assault.
    If you just start kissing someone, then you don't know if they desire a kiss beforehand. So the kissing is not consensual.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sure from a personal opinion. You can think whatever you like. For whatever reason. He has hair like a pervert.. so he must be one. Like those pervert beard people.
    Doesn't mean you have logic and reason on your side for your opinions.

    I point out that you may be able to personally asses if an action is in character or not, but it doesn't substantiate that the event actually occurred. I think my case for that and pointing out the flaw in your logic has held up.
    You have not pointed out any flaw in my logic. This statement doesn't amount to anything more than "you may be wrong" and does not address my logic which is:

    "But when HE says "I do this to women" and a bunch of women say "He did that to me", I think the claim that he did that to some women is not a baseless claim. There is definitely a valid reason to think he likely did at least some of the things he's accused of."




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    there are no witnesses. (see later point on that)
    Let me put it this way. If there was an actual rape case on trial, the alleged victim of the crime definitely counts as a witness. So accusers of a crime are indeed witnesses to that crime. So accusers are witnesses.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, a dozen women are claiming to have gone to the moon.
    You've lost me with your analogy.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No it doesn't, to think it does is the double standard that I pointed out.
    Engaging in a double standard does not mean that one is wrong.

    If I think Trump is a creep and the reporter is not, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong about Trump being a creep even if for some reason I don't think the reporter is. And if you want to call me a hypocrite, go ahead. But then me being a hypocrite likewise doesn't make my argument regarding Trump wrong either (to dismiss my argument over a personal characteristic of myself, such as hypocrisy, is to engage in the ad hominem fallacy)

    So I will repeat my argument and it stands until you provide a valid rebuttal.

    My point is that Donald's behavior regarding the pageant contestant's locker room gives credibility to the notion that he takes advantage of women for his own sexual pleasure. He admitted to invading various women's privacy so he can see them naked. It adds credibility to the notion that he behaves in a sexually inappropriate manner towards attractive women.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well then you didn't watch the debate where he was asked if he still sexually assaultes woman.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT that he was asked that in a debate.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, their actions or lack there of at the time is evidence that he acted within the social structure he was in.
    You don't get to come back years later and raise a stink, if you stood in line and participated at the time.
    Because you say so? You will need to support this with something other than your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    He hugged them, and you called it sexual assault then. Or at least, your accepting their accusation of sexual assault.
    The media is including them in the list of sexual assault accusers.
    Sooo..
    I guess you don't understand. A hug has to have some sexual component to it before it can considered sexual anything, let alone sexual assault.

    So again, not every hug counts as one. But the hugs that Trump allegedly gave do.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Support or retract.
    Explain how the definition specifically excludes that. Explain how the hugs and kisses donal supposedly handed out to porn star and her friends does violate it because it is described with "grabbing in a hug".
    Sorry. I don't understand what you are saying.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Pure speculation. Also it wasn't "grabbing and hugging" it was "grabbed in a hug". That is one act, not two. And specifically it is distortion by the media of a normal social activity (evidence already offered). It's a way the media slanders people.
    It's not a distortion because it was a direct quote from the women. They said "grabbed".



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    not the way the media uses it, or how you have generally used it here. no I'm not.
    Then I guess you won't mind if some guy comes up and starts kissing and hugging the women in your life without their consent. I think most people would mind.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is because that adds the element of ability to say no. neither would I hold a woman who is gagged to the same standard I am putting forward.
    If you can say no, and you don't, then you are consenting. you don't get to willfully remain silent, and say you did not consent. Silence and not fighting back is called participation.
    That is incredibly ridiculous. Consent is when you AGREE to it. PERIOD!!!! If you don't want it to happen but don't say "no" for whatever reason, then you did not consent.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I mean, if you kiss a girl and then slowly undress her, and then begin to have sex with her, remaining silent the whole time.
    She doesn't get to come back 20 years later and say you raped her. She doesn't get to say she didn't invite the actions. That simply isn't how it works. Nor should it.
    She can say she was raped if she didn't consent to the sexual activity. What if she was threatened with violence so she didn't resist and therefore didn't consent. What if she was unconscious? And all of these scenarios fit your what you have have forwarded for I don't see you mentioning consent in your scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Support or retract that "for personal sexual gratification" is relevan to the definition of "sexual assault".
    How is it not obvious that sexual gratification is relevant to committing sexual assault? Why do you think people do that?



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, they are the accusers. witnesses would be someone else who saw it.
    Nope. If someone is on trial for rape and the only person who testifies against the perp is the victim, the victim is definitely considered a witness. Either way, you are just playing semantic games. Use whatever term you want - there are people who have witnessed the activities and their claims are relevant.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Society doesn't get to draw arbitrary lines in that way.
    Society is not drawing a line here. I AM. So let me repeat my statement (and this is coming just from me) and if you disagree with me, please tell me why or I will assume that you don't disagree.

    "For those of us who recognize the very pertinent difference between walking in on undressed girls for one's own sexual gratification and people using the bathroom that best aligns with their gender identification even if someone else is not comfortable (but really, I think generally people will be most comfortable with what appears to the a man using the men's room regardless of "actual" gender), we will express outrage. If you don't care about Trump walking on undressed women, then I guess that's just something we disagree about. I will take the position that doing that is highly immoral and if were my daughter in the dressing room, I would probably be looking for the creep that did that. But that's just me, I guess."



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is some confusion on which case your speaking of. I agree that there are "witnesses" to the locker room walk through.
    I have objected to that on social norms grounds, and I challenge people who are insenced at that (like the media) to do a bit of self examination at their own apparent double standard. Specifically the media. Specifically people who are advocating dicks in womans locker rooms and bathrooms (people conviently forget that such rules would apply to locker rooms as well as bathrooms).
    Our society is clearly pushing for inter gender locker room mingling. So I'm not very receptive of their cries of fowl.
    Which completely side-steps the pertinent issue, which is Trump's behavior. The only reason that you should be blasť about Trump's activities is if you don't actually care. If you don't care that he has walked into women's changing rooms so he can get an eyeful of undressed women, then I guess you have a much higher tolerance for this guy being a total creep than others. If you do care though and think that this shows that he's a creep, then you should honestly concede that point.

    What everyone else thinks about that and issues that you think are similar (and btw, I don't agree that they are similar in any relevant way) is completely irrelevant to whether Trump is being a creep and shifting the focus to that is really dodging the issue that I'm raising regarding his walking into changing rooms.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My biggest disagreement is with your use of the term "sexual assaulted". You have introduced the idea that sexual intent is necessary. I believe you have done this to arbitrarily limit and exclude normal social interactions. I believe this is a horrible mistake on your part, injecting a meaning to adhoc avoid my point.
    I'm sorry but on what planet is giving someone a platonic (non-sexual) hug considered "sexual assault"? It's clearly not. I think you are the one who is playing around with definitions and trying to make something that is not necessarily sexual "sexual" in order to forward that the ramifications of my argument leads us somewhere ridiculous. I NEVER defined "sexual assault" as any and all hugs so if you want to argue that all non-consensual hugs are indeed sexual assault, the burden is yours. If you don't think that, then we actually agree that platonic hugs cannot reasonably be considered sexual assault.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    unless you are going to maintain that Donald in kissing and hugging those three girls intended to initiate sexual activity, or for his own sexual gratification. (Above what is you know,.. inherent to men hugging a pretty girl). I'm just curious how willing you are to indite all those poor guys stuck in the friend zone, hugging that 'friend" without asking for their own sexual gratification.
    Actually, if a guy hugs a girl that he's attracted to without her consent, it could be considered sexual assault. Again, I'm not arguing legally (as in the guy can be prosecuted) but if he grabs/hugs/kisses the girl without her consent for his own sexual gratification or as an attempt to seduce, I wouldn't blame her for thinking it is sexual assault.

    As I said, I've never hugged anyone without their consent and would feel pretty creepy if I ever did hug a woman I was sexually attracted to without her consent as either an attempt to "get something started" or just for the thrill of it. It's just not right.

    When you want to hug someone, you open your arms and hope they respond in kind. When you want to kiss someone, you lean in and hope they do the same (or just ask to kiss them) - you don't just start kissing them.

 

 
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