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  1. #1
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    Christianity is a conspiracy

    I've been researching conspiracy theories for a few years, and recently I've been focused on the conspiracy of Christianity. Christianity is an ideal system for gaining control over a people, as it promotes traits such as submissiveness, a tendency towards blind obedience, and a reluctance to seek justice (revenge) if one is wronged. For those who are interested, I've found this site to be good for this topic http://exposingchristianity.org
    Does anyone else have any thoughts on how Christianity might be used to coerce/control people?

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    I don't really agree with your assessment - not exactly, anyway.

    Christianity is a religion, not a conspiracy. That's not to say that Christians don't sometime conspire or use Christianity, or any religion, to control and influence people.

    But of course Christianity, and other religions, are much more and do much more than that.

    A conspiracy, as far I can define, is a secret plot between multiple people. I'm sure there have been many Christian conspiracies but I wouldn't say the whole religion is a conspiracy.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    I think a good case could be made for why some religions could be considered as not conspiracies per se, but definitely complex edifices intended to gain control over people.

    Would you mind providing some excerpts from that website which you believe best support your OP? It's kind of a rule here that we shouldn't have to actually visit your link to know what you're referring to by providing it.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwater
    Christianity is an ideal system for gaining control over a people, as it promotes traits such as submissiveness, a tendency towards blind obedience, and a reluctance to seek justice (revenge) if one is wronged
    So anything that promotes traits you don't like or agree with are a conspiracy? (assuming of course those are indeed traits Christianity promotes inherently)

    That brings up a good point, what is your evidence that Christianity promotes blind obedience, submissiveness, and not to seek justice.
    O, and why in the world are you conflating justice with revenge?

    Quote Originally Posted by GREEN
    Does anyone else have any thoughts on how Christianity might be used to coerce/control people?
    Nope, because your premise is not supported and I see no reason to accept it simply because it is stated.
    care to explain?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Blind obedience & submissiveness: Proverbs 3:5, Deut. 11:1, John 14:15, John 15:14, Luke 11:28, Colossians 3:22, Genesis 2:18, 1 Peter 2:13, 1 Peter 3:1-6, 1 Corinthians 11:9, 1 Corinthians 14:34, EDIT: Genesis 22:1-19!
    Revenge: Matthew 5:39
    Justice: 1 Peter 2:18-19

    Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.
    Last edited by futureboy; November 4th, 2016 at 09:05 AM.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.
    Why are you assuming there is no justice when someone is saved (forgiven) for let’s say, murder because he repents before he dies? Why are you assuming that when God ‘s grace forgives man/woman for a crime that they sincerely ask for forgiveness, that such grace does not mean justice for the soul will not take place? Just because we may not be aware of how God’s justice plays out when he forgives a soul for a crime doesn’t mean much, except that we’re only aware of a small portion of physical reality. Where in Christian text does it teach that God’s forgiveness removes all consequences (justice) for crimes like murder , rape, etc. if the soul goes into a heavenly kingdom when the person dies?

    It seems to me you are assuming Christ forgiveness (being saved) eliminates cosmic justice (consequences for our unwise choices). Where is this assumption supported in the Bible?
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  7. #7
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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Blind obedience & submissiveness
    So your defining "blind obedience" as what is general described in the bible as "faith"?
    What is your justification?

    and what about submissiveness, the only one I see is about being submissive to the gov not Christianity.
    That doesn't follow as support for your point about Christianity being a conspiracy to control people.
    That is like saying the Illuminati is a conspiracy for people to obey the KKK

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Revenge:
    I do not dispute that the Bible teaches to not seek revenge.
    My objection is that this idea is not the same as "justice" and you have not justified as to why we should
    a: think it is or
    B: That the bible teaches that it is

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.
    You are going to have to establish a separate existence of justice and it's source if you intent to start a criticism there.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You are going to have to establish a separate existence of justice and it's source if you intent to start a criticism there.
    Why?

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So your defining "blind obedience" as what is general described in the bible as "faith"?
    No, I'm defining blind obedience and submissiveness in the bible as blind obedience and submissiveness, not faith. The bible describes faith as confidence in what is hoped for and assurance about what is not seen, or blind faith. Of course, the blind obedience and submissiveness in the bible is easily justified to Christians by having blind faith, but that doesn't change the fact that it is blind obedience and submissiveness.

    and what about submissiveness, the only one I see is about being submissive to the gov not Christianity.
    The bible commands slaves to submit to their masters, and women to submit to men. The fact that the bible also commands people to submit to governments still proves that it commands submissiveness. Submissiveness to whom is another question altogether. No wonder Christianity has such appeal Constantine for him to make it the empire's religion - it ensured faultless obedience to the will of the ruler.

    You are going to have to establish a separate existence of justice and it's source if you intent to start a criticism there.
    I could, but as Dionysus pointed out, whether there is another source of justice is not relevant to the fact that Christianity lacks justice of any kind, so I don't really have to.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    Why?
    Because from my position Justice flows from God (just like morality).
    So, if he is going to stand on some other idea of justice, he is going to have to first establish it as a measure by which Christianity is to be judged.
    As it isn't a shared assumption, he has to justify it and explain it.

    Isn't that fair? To, you know expect my opponent to establish the basis for his criticism?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because from my position Justice flows from God (just like morality).
    So, if he is going to stand on some other idea of justice, he is going to have to first establish it as a measure by which Christianity is to be judged.
    As it isn't a shared assumption, he has to justify it and explain it.
    I think he is appealing to the notion that one should be held accountable for his crimes and therefore it's not justice to just get away with one's crimes by appealing to a certain deity upon one's deathbed.

    And of course the shared assumption goes both ways. If you want to say that whatever (the bible says that) God does or says is automatically justice no matter how directly it contradicts what we, as people, might think of what is and is not just, if one does not share your theistic assumptions, then your position likewise is based on an unshared assumption.

    But I suppose the question for you is that do you agree that one should be held accountable for his/her crime? Assuming you do, then that particular assumption is shared.
    Last edited by mican333; November 5th, 2016 at 03:53 PM.

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because from my position Justice flows from God (just like morality).
    So, if he is going to stand on some other idea of justice, he is going to have to first establish it as a measure by which Christianity is to be judged.
    As it isn't a shared assumption, he has to justify it and explain it.

    Isn't that fair? To, you know expect my opponent to establish the basis for his criticism?
    Since we're talking about fairness, and since fairness is an aspect of morality, and since your position on morality flows from God, can you show in the Bible where the concept of 'fairness' is said to contain an expectation that people first establish their basis for any criticism of concepts of justice before forwarding said criticism?

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwaters View Post
    Does anyone else have any thoughts on how Christianity might be used to coerce/control people?
    ...by encouraging them to not break laws, pay taxes, and be productive? Lovecraftian levels of horror to be sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.
    What is inherently unjust about forgiving a crime?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Since we're talking about fairness, and since fairness is an aspect of morality, and since your position on morality flows from God, can you show in the Bible where the concept of 'fairness' is said to contain an expectation that people first establish their basis for any criticism of concepts of justice before forwarding said criticism?
    Wouldn't that fall under the "Judge not or you'll be judged, and by the measure you judge others so too will you be judged" portion of Matthew?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    What is inherently unjust about forgiving a crime?
    Every day there are criminals who ask for forgiveness and are nonetheless tried and punished for their crimes. Are you saying that's inherently unjust? Why aren't you petitioning to change the law to grant full pardons on the basis of asking for forgiveness?
    Also, if you believe justice is served when someone avoids punishment by being forgiven, on what basis did you determine that this is just?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why are you assuming there is no justice when someone is saved (forgiven) for let’s say, murder because he repents before he dies? Why are you assuming that when God ‘s grace forgives man/woman for a crime that they sincerely ask for forgiveness, that such grace does not mean justice for the soul will not take place? Just because we may not be aware of how God’s justice plays out when he forgives a soul for a crime doesn’t mean much, except that we’re only aware of a small portion of physical reality. Where in Christian text does it teach that God’s forgiveness removes all consequences (justice) for crimes like murder , rape, etc. if the soul goes into a heavenly kingdom when the person dies? It seems to me you are assuming Christ forgiveness (being saved) eliminates cosmic justice (consequences for our unwise choices). Where is this assumption supported in the Bible?
    I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Are you saying that there is still some type of justice if a rapist is saved and "goes into a heavenly kingdom" (whatever that means) upon death? Could you elaborate on what that is?

    Take a simple scenario:
    A priest rapes a child, who then grows up hating the church and everything it represents. That person does not believe, naturally, but endeavours to lead a good life by most standards, and commits no crimes. The victim has a family, successfully raises children who become valuable members of society, and then dies and goes to hell (assuming, for the sake of the scenario, that hell exists) because he/she remained atheistic until death.
    The priest, who quite possibly even gets to rape some more kids, is saved just before death and goes to heaven (again assuming, for the sake of the scenario, that heaven exists).
    Could you explain and provide support for the justice you claim exists in this scenario according to your belief system, and on what basis did you determine that it is just?

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Are you saying that there is still some type of justice if a rapist is saved and "goes into a heavenly kingdom" (whatever that means) upon death? Could you elaborate on what that is?
    You seem to be making a claim that “Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.” Is this a personal option or can you support this with Christian text? If this is your opinion, that’s fine. But then I might suggest restating your sweeping assumption that Christianity, which includes scripture and the teachings in the Bible, lacks any form of justice.


    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Could you explain and provide support for the justice you claim exists in this scenario according to your belief system, and on what basis did you determine that it is just?
    I am not the one making claims here about Christianity and divine justice. I am asking you why you are assuming that there is no justice when someone is saved (forgiven) for let’s say murder? What did you base this assumption, your belief on? What Christian text supports thiscomment? I would be happy to discuss the matter further, but again you seem to be making a claim about Christianity lacking justice and I ‘m trying to understand is this your opinion or can you support your claim with Christian text?
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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    You seem to be making a claim that “Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.”
    I don't seem to be making that claim, I am making that claim. I've already explained it in more detail with: "The religion lacks justice based on the common definition of justice ("the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals"), when someone can escape punishment by being saved before death and goes to heaven."

    Is this a personal option or can you support this with Christian text? If this is your opinion, that’s fine. But then I might suggest restating your sweeping assumption that Christianity, which includes scripture and the teachings in the Bible, lacks any form of justice.
    Being forgiven for sins and going to heaven is one of the core principles of Christian dogma, is it not?

    I am not the one making claims here about Christianity and divine justice. I am asking you why you are assuming that there is no justice when someone is saved (forgiven) for let’s say murder?
    Your statement in post #31:
    Just because we may not be aware of how God’s justice plays out when he forgives a soul for a crime doesn’t mean much, except that we’re only aware of a small portion of physical reality.
    This is an implicit claim that there is somehow justice in God's forgiveness, we just aren't aware of it. You referred to it as "God's justice". Please explain what you mean, provide support that it exists, and explain how you determined that it is actually justice, or just. Please also explain how what you're calling "God's justice" plays out in the scenario I provided, how it is just, and how you determined it to be just.

    What did you base this assumption, your belief on? What Christian text supports this comment? I would be happy to discuss the matter further, but again you seem to be making a claim about Christianity lacking justice and I ‘m trying to understand is this your opinion or can you support your claim with Christian text?
    It isn't an assumption or a belief. The common definition of justice excludes the chance of avoiding punishment by merely asking for forgiveness. You appear to be using a different definition of justice - "God's justice"? Please explain what you mean and the basis on which you determined that it is just.

  17. #17
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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    ]I don't seem to be making that claim,
    So this statement you made is an opinion? “Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice…”

    Being forgiven for sins and going to heaven is one of the core principles of Christian dogma, is it not?”
    The core principles of orthodox Christianity are: “The basic tenets of Christianity, typically referred to as the core doctrines, include the belief that there is only one true God; that God exists in the form of a Trinity, or three gods in one; that God is omnipresent and omniscient; and that God is sovereign and holy. In addition, a core principle is the belief that Jesus was the Son of God but became a man and was sent to earth to save mankind from death and sin.

    Though there are many facets of Christianity and multiple denominations, most adhere to the basic tenets and strive to live their lives by the inherent principles of the religion.The belief that God is holy, just, true and forgiving informs the true believer's approach to daily life. The sinful nature of man dictates actions to overcome this premise and gain entrance to heaven based on accepting salvation as a free gift from God to those who accept Jesus Christ. Those who do so receive forgiveness of sins and live eternally after death. However, humans who do not subscribe to this are doomed to eternal damnation and an afterlife in hell. Christians believe that Jesus plans to return to the earth, that the dead will be raised, and that a final judgement day is coming when Satan is thrown into a lake of fire and God creates a new heaven and earth.”
    https://www.reference.com/world-view...b7887453a0ec7#


    This is an implicit claim that there is somehow justice in God's forgiveness, we just aren't aware of it. You referred to it as "God's justice".
    My comment “ Just because we may not be aware of how God’s justice plays out when he forgives a soul for a crime doesn’t mean much, except that we’re only aware of a small portion of physical reality” simply points out that you and I and most people are clueless of what happens to a person (soul) in heaven when we make our transition from this world, and thus we are clueless of how divine justice operates in heaven -- unless, of course, you want to consider people who claim to have gone to heaven and come back. Let me know if you want to discuss that. However, you seem to know what is happening in heaven and that Christianity, according to you, lacks justice in heaven. How do you know heaven lacks justice? How can you support this? In order for you to make this claim and support it, I would presume that you have found this information in scriptures or perhaps you have some in debt information about heaven that most don’t have. If this is the case, can you please share it on this thread?

    Please explain what you mean, provide support that it exists
    God loves justice. Justice is referenced throughout the Bible.

    “For I, the LORD, love justice, I hate robbery in the burnt offering; And I will faithfully give them their recompense And make an everlasting covenant with them.” Isaiah 61:8
    If one doesn’t know how justice works in heaven, does that mean it doesn’t exist as you seem to be claiming?

    It isn't an assumption or a belief. The common definition of justice
    Are you assuming that the limitation of human common language definitions on earth are also common in heaven?

    You appear to be using a different definition of justice - "God's justice"?
    I have not submitted any definitions. You made statement: “Christianity lacks any form of justice” how are you defining justice?

    How did you determine that we can't apply our reasoning to evaluate the fairness of situations involving the deity which you claim exists?

    Well for one, God’s gives us some hints about the difference between the heaven world and the physical world in a few places in the Bible:

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. Isaiah 55:8-9

    "My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36

    It actually makes sense if you think about it objectively. What seems just and fair to man is limited to the laws of the physical world -- the evidence we can observe or detect. God has no such limitation and however divine justice works, God knows all the cards, not just the physical cards. So what may seem unjust to man (who can only observe the limits of physical causes) may not be unjust for God who know all the causes; and what is just for God may seem unjust to man. So how do we apply human reasoning subject to only physical causes to understand God’s justice who knows all the cards?
    Last edited by eye4magic; November 24th, 2016 at 03:13 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    It's pretty silly to think that flawed, biased, mortal humans who can't even agree amongst themselves what is just should be able to dictate and define what is justice to an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal being who literally created us and everything else in the universe
    We have an agreed-upon definition of justice which is currently in use and supported for the purposes of this discussion, but the fact that the question of "what is just" is constantly being discussed and debated is actually a good thing, as it means we are able to adjust and improve upon our justice system. Also, nobody's dictating or defining what is justice to the deity which you claim exists, which makes sense, since you haven't supported that the deity exists, has any of the characteristics you listed, or did any of the things you claim it did.

    Your response has nothing to do with my statement:
    The simple fact that we are able to reason and determine what is just according to our standards is enough to justify doing so. All that is required is to look at something and ask "Is that just, according to what we consider justice?"

    And you still haven't answered the key questions:
    What is the justice you are referring to, and on what basis did you determine that it is just?
    How did you determine that the deity which you claim exists is "all good"?
    How did you determine that we can't apply our reasoning to evaluate the fairness of situations involving the deity which you claim exists?

    =======================================

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So this statement you made is an opinion? “Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice…”
    The full sentence was "I don't seem to be making that claim, I am making that claim," and was only intended to correct the confusing statement you made when you said, "You seem to be making a claim that," but then quoted my claim verbatim.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The core principles of orthodox Christianity are ....
    You pasted quite a bit from that website which isn't directly related to the question I asked, so I pulled out what appears to be related:
    The sinful nature of man dictates actions to overcome this premise and gain entrance to heaven based on accepting salvation as a free gift from God to those who accept Jesus Christ. Those who do so receive forgiveness of sins and live eternally after death. However, humans who do not subscribe to this are doomed to eternal damnation and an afterlife in hell.
    So, your answer is that, Yes, being forgiven for sins and going to heaven is a principle of Christianity? Please confirm.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    My comment “Just because we may not be aware of how God’s justice plays out when he forgives a soul for a crime doesn’t mean much, except that we’re only aware of a small portion of physical reality” simply points out that you and I and most people are clueless of what happens to a person (soul) in heaven when we make our transition from this world
    Again, you are making a claim that there is something happening of which we are clueless and which has not been supported. Please support or retract this claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    thus we are clueless of how divine justice operates in heaven
    Again, you are referring to something other than the justice which has been established in this thread, and again without providing the clarification which has repeatedly been requested: what is this "divine/God's justice", how did you determine that it is just, and what support can you provide which demonstrates that it exists?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    unless, of course, you want to consider people who claim to have gone to heaven and come back. Let me know if you want to discuss that.
    Until anything more substantial than just their claims is provided, there is nothing to discuss. If you are forwarding their claims as the basis on which you hold beliefs in "God's justice", then you must provide support for those claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    However, you seem to know what is happening in heaven and that Christianity, according to you, lacks justice in heaven. How do you know heaven lacks justice? How can you support this? In order for you to make this claim and support it, I would presume that you have found this information in scriptures or perhaps you have some in debt information about heaven that most don’t have. If this is the case, can you please share it on this thread?
    Being saved and avoiding punishment by going to heaven is not in concordance with justice as it has been defined ("the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals"). Note that it doesn't include "- provided they don't just ask to be forgiven" at the end. There is no claim here to know what is happening in heaven, nor is it required. By definition, not being punished and going to heaven is not justice as it has been defined.
    So if you're claiming that there is some justice in heaven, then it must be some other kind of justice, which hasn't been defined or supported.
    What is that, how did you determine that it is just, and what support can you provide which demonstrates that it exists?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    God loves justice. Justice is referenced throughout the Bible.
    Referencing something is not support that it exists. Also, referencing something is not an explanation, either, especially considering justice as currently defined contradicts what is accepted as a principle of Christianity.
    Please explain what you mean by "God's justice", provide support that it exists, and explain how you determined that it is just. Please also explain how what you're calling "God's justice" plays out in the scenario I provided, how it is just, and how you determined it to be just.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    If one doesn’t know how justice works in heaven, does that mean it doesn’t exist as you seem to be claiming?
    Since the existence of it has not been supported, then the belief that it exists cannot be rationally justified. And again, you're referring to "justice in heaven" which, by definition, is not justice and has not been supported. Please support what you mean by "justice in heaven", and explain the basis on which you determined that it is just.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you assuming that the limitation of human common language definitions on earth are also common in heaven?
    It appears you're essentially saying that our language cannot possibly define that which exists in heaven. Please confirm, as this would be yet another implicit claim of something which exists but has not been supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I have not submitted any definitions.
    I know, which is why I've repeatedly asked you to do so every time you have referred to something which has not been defined nor supported. This penchant you have for smuggling in undefined and unsupported terms/claims while continuously ignoring requests for clarification and support of them is the main reason we aren't getting anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. Isaiah 55:8-9
    "My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36
    1. Please provide support or retract that what the speaker said is true.
    2. It appears your only support for why we can't apply our reasoning of fairness to the deity you claim exists is that the deity you claim exists said so. Nice. Disregarding - for now - the usual "divine edict" issues with that, isn't it somewhat circular?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    It actually makes sense if you think about it objectively. What seems just and fair to man is limited to the laws of the physical world -- the evidence we can observe or detect.
    No, it's limited to what has been supported, and anything which has not is dismissed. So it's not thinking objectively that's required for it to make sense, it's thinking irrationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    God has no such limitation and however divine justice works, God knows all the cards, not just the physical cards. So what may seem unjust to man (who can only observe the limits of physical causes) may not be unjust for God who know all the causes; and what is just for God may seem unjust to man. So how do we apply human reasoning subject to only physical causes to understand God’s justice who knows all the cards?
    More unsupported claims and undefined terms, which are all dismissed until you provide the support and clarification as requested.

  19. #19
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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Every day there are criminals who ask for forgiveness and are nonetheless tried and punished for their crimes. Are you saying that's inherently unjust? Why aren't you petitioning to change the law to grant full pardons on the basis of asking for forgiveness?
    Also, if you believe justice is served when someone avoids punishment by being forgiven, on what basis did you determine that this is just?
    You're trying too hard, Future. Let's revisit the exchange so you can see how you're starting to construct a straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futureboy in post #5
    Regarding justice, I would say that Christianity lacks any form of justice when a murderer need only be saved before death to be able to get into heaven and avoid justice for their crimes.
    Here, you introduced the concept here that a criminal ought to be punished for there to be justice. I responded to that by asking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde
    What is inherently unjust about forgiving a crime?
    I'm not making any claim or argument here. I'm just asking you to clarify why forgiveness (mercy) invalidates justice. Not justice for that person, but as you have made clear the entire concept of justice in its entirety within that set of beliefs.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Christianity is a conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Wouldn't that fall under the "Judge not or you'll be judged, and by the measure you judge others so too will you be judged" portion of Matthew?
    I think that’s a very good candidate, but as I recall, the “judge not” rule referred more to attacking a person’s character based on observed behaviors - not simply being critical of certain systems of belief for containing unexpected inconsistencies. Nonetheless, what you offered was better than anything else anyone put up, so rep to you!

 

 
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