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  1. #21
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You must have never known someone with an ectopic pregnancy.
    No baiting please, no abortion debate here, just why did Trump win.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  3. #22
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    THis one is interesting. Two Trump supporters here mentioned it so I'm guessing that more do. If you ask a Hillary supporter they can tell you what her message is just fine. She will protect womens rights (aka pro choice), fight to ensure healthrcare for the average citizen (aka preserve and perhaps expand HCA), ensure decency and equality for all americans (aka fight for civil rights), work towards american prosperity (aka middle class tax cuts and infrastructure investment), work agaisnt climate change to ensure the nations future (aka stick it to oil and coal companies and make more parks and green energy investments), and the list goes on. Basically the usual liberal agenda, but that's pretty much what most democrats want.

    Which is not to say your comment isn't meaningful. It does mean that if you are not a democrat, Hillary's message is meaningless and has not only no appeal, you can't even register its existence.
    Edit..
    Yea, I literally heard none of that any time she was on T.V. that I saw. Maybe that is because I tuned her out every time she stared just bashing trump. or maybe all she ever did while I happened to see her was bash trump. I did watch the debates, and I only remember both of them sort of insulting each other.

    So I seriously fault Her and the Media for her message not reaching me. I'm proof of her failure. (consumer advertiser relationship wise).

    I would have to ask, where did you find her policies at? Did you have to look them up? Was it in the debates and I missed it? (I didn't watch 100% of all of them).

    Finally, I can understand why I see the womans issue not registering, because I have no idea what that means, and never heard any specifics. I don't generally count platitudes as policy. Agree or not trump wants to build a wall. That is physical, and specific, and easy to remember. As opposed to "address immigration issues". (which I'm not accusing anyone of saying, but feel that is equal to any "womans issue" )

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Agreed. I think Hillary thought that Obama's technique was the key to his grass roots turnout. When it appears by her following it and failing, it was not his technique but his persona and message that allowed him to do what he did, twice.
    I think I may want to amend the grass roots point some. I mean, ultimatly I stand by the idea that Trump proved that advertisig and traditional campaging isn't what gets people.
    But Trump got something like 2mil less votes than Romney (If I have that right) and Hillary got 8M less than Obama.
    In light of that, I thought Obama won the second time because of Romeny not energizing the base, and thus he Got less votes than McCain, who I also thought wasn't very energizing.
    So I think your point about Obama was more true the first time he was elected, and less true the second time.

    .. O.k. Not sure where I was going with that. Just that with 2M less votes than someone I already thought wasn't getting out the vote, I think my point takes a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    They were however obviously out of touch and made the smae intilectual mistakes I did in evaluating the outcome.
    Here I am several days later.. and I am still surprised that Trump won.
    Basically as much as I tried to filter out the Media Bias.. I still bought into something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Yes. I think that their past success had the efect of leading us to expect future results. (if you do any investment that idea should be familiar) They were pretty good at predictions in many cases but missed the mark here. Why is a good question however, and I don't know yet. Were people fooling the pollsters with inacurate ansers? Was the landscape shifting too fast? Were the turnout modles simply flawed and misjudjed how disaffected people were or how enraged they were? Ultimately they are predicting and its prone to be wrong sometimes.
    So, listening to the guy on fox (Perino and Starwald) and he was defending the polls for not being too wrong.
    His point was that the info was there, just the analsyis was wrong.
    He also pointed to the fact that most pols were wrong, but within the margin of error.

    So what strikes me, is that if you look at the aggrigate polls.. they were nearly all in Her favor. So there was something more fundamental wrong, then just a "margin of error" thing.

    As for me.. I hope I remember to ignore the polls better next time. (I said that last time as the polls were wrong then too).

    Finally...
    Props for the omnibus response. No need to respond to my above, I am not challenging anything you have said.
    To serve man.

  4. #23
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    This particular debate is about Trumps victory and the reasons therefore, not Hillary's policies. To the extent that they relate, it's fine to discuss, but let's not turn this into a debate or discussion on abortion. We have other threads dedicated to that

    *edit*

    I see Sig addressed this already. Thanks Sig. Wasnt trying to step on your toes

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  6. #24
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    There's an appeal to the working class here that I think is profoundly important. I voted for Hillary, but it’s not because I wanted her to win (there are so many variations of that sentiment that I won’t say more about it).

    In my 27 years as a member of the working class (minus, say, 8 years doing a consulting gig), it seems to me to come down to two things:

    ~Respect
    ~Fair compensation

    If a leader gives me that, then I’ll give them everything I’ve got, because in respecting me, it causes me to respect our shared goals, and by paying me fairly it shows me that that I’m a valued asset in which the leader is investing (which is another, powerful form of respect).

    Working in the petrochemical industry all this time, I’ve met oceans of people who exhibit a wide range of distrust towards the educated elite. They’re naturally skeptical of both their intelligence and of the actual value that they add to the company. “What does that guy do anyway? Sit around in meetings where all the ladder-climbers lick his boots, praising him when he dreams up some more stupid s#!t for US to do, so HE can take credit for it? Did you hear he got a 2 million dollar BONUS last year? On TOP of his salary? I wish I could be set for life by just thinking up dumb s#!t. Hell, I could do that all day!”

    I made that up, of course, and I wish I could tell you that there’s even a smidgen of hyperbole there, but there isn’t. That’s EXACTLY how most of the working class people I know view the people with the sheepskins at the top; there have been many times that I’ve felt that way myself.

    What makes it worse is when we do work that we KNOW those guys could neither do nor understand. For example: A few of you know I work offshore. Last month we changed out a critical safety valve on our facility, and it didn’t fit quite right. The educated mechanical engineer did the measurements, the weight, the dimensions; all that crap. But when the rubber met the road, the damn thing didn’t fit. This multi-billion dollar project now rested on a 32,000 lb valve and pig launcher that didn't bolt up.

    So who fixed it? Who made it so that we could start flowing 120k barrels of oil a day again (plus millions in natural gas)?

    Not the engineers; oh no.

    ~It was the rigger – who didn’t finish high school whose highest ambition in life is a good fishing hole and a new crawfish pot so he can do a boil for his family and friends on the weekend – that figured out how to weave a tapestry of lifting devices in the area to move the valve both vertically and horizontally to ease it into place.

    ~It was the construction hand with a GED – who’d been out there for the 20th, 16-hour-day in a row, making about 14 bucks an hour – who figured out that if you removed the sheath from the valve actuator, that would give you another 4 precious inches of clearance.

    ~It was the tubing benders from south Texas who graduated high school – who’s been working a 21 and 7 rotation (that’s 21 days at work, and 7 days off, 24 hours of which is spent driving back and forth from McAllen to Houma) for the last five years because any other rotation just wouldn’t make ends meet at their hourly rate – whose artistry with their craft made it so that the instrumentation tubing could be removed in sections to give the rigger space to perform his magic.

    ~It was the galley hand with broken English and a 3rd grade education – working for 7 bucks an hour, preparing meals in the galley, washing oil-soaked clothes, making 120 beds, emptying trash cans, unloading groceries, and doing every other little thing – who did everything that makes life comfortable for us out here (that’s after he had to pay $200 of his pittance for bus fare to take him from Houston to Houma because no one was travelling that way at a time that worked for his rotation).

    Now of course, the valve wouldn’t even exist without the educated elite. Hell, the INDUSTRY wouldn’t exist without them. But when people like that do work like that for compensation like that, and they go on to see the dude who never once had a spot on his clothes go on to make millions in bonuses while they can’t afford their wife’s chemo treatments without sacrificing something in their 401k or their life savings (at 53 years of age), it creates a dual hatred for the educated people who worked in the field for two years at BEST who go on to think about dumb s#!t for us to do, and a hatred for the politicians who make it so that it’s fine and dandy (i.e. perfectly legal) for Schlumberger to lay off 25,000 people THE SAME YEAR they paid their CEO 18 million dollars.

    And that’s just the first part.

    For the last 40 years, the marching song of the elite has been that their education is what sets them apart from the rest; that ALL YOU NEED is to get a degree, and the world is your oyster.

    (And look, I know all about working hard for what you want. I’m talking about the American Dream and how it’s been sold to my kid’s generation.)

    But do you see these days? You see 20-somethings with degrees in law serving coffee for tips. You see ones with Master’s degrees managing a housekeeping department at an average of 60-70 hours a week in a hotel for 30k a year (with an annual $1000 bonus if no one complains! Yeah!) Meanwhile they’re racking up crushing student loan debt to colleges who’ve gotten rid of 90% of their tenured professors so they can backfill them with underpaid adjuncts with no benefits, all so that their high-level board members can enjoy their inflated salaries.

    And I don't mean to paint it like it's like working in Mordor. It isn't. It's pretty damn good, actually. I mean, when I'm out here I often get to turn down steak for dinner, because I don't feel like steak.

    STEAK.

    There's respect and teamwork and inclusion at THIS level, and that's good for everyone.

    Of course I'm talking about the un-crossable bridge between the gap. I'm talking about the guys who really are burdened by crap wages working - ultimately - for billionaires who, not only they will never meet, but whose lives are so far removed from theirs that they probably COULDN'T meet without one or the other of them feeling utterly out of place.

    There's just something unseemly about a world like that, you know? Where you actually feel like a better or lesser person compared to another?

    Anyway, sorry. That was a longer rant than I intended. The point is that I GET why people voted for Trump. He positioned himself as wholly “other”. He didn’t talk like the educated do-nothings who’ve been looking down their noses at the working class for 50 years, sopping up the money while the working person struggles with paying their parent’s funeral expenses; he talked like a complete a$$hole who was genuinely angry at a rigged system. Because he did that, he appealed to the bitter embers of resentment that have been building in people for generations, and those embers emerged this election season as an inferno.

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  8. #25
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    That was a beautiful rant! (and reminded me of the very short time I worked on the north slope of Alaska in terms of the oil rig work and environment)

    What always go me about Trump's appeal, is that when I see him, I see every corrupt ******** overpaid executive I've had to work with and then some. Most of those I worked with were more genuine and Trump was like a distillation of those people into a concentrated toxic brew. And like in many companies, I see people sit there and swollow what he says as if he is their drinking buddy, which is exactly what he wants them to think he is when in truth he is anything but. Anything he can tell you to make him like you, he will say. And then he will do whatever the hell he feels like after that fits his own agenda and aims. He's going to tell you what he wants you to hear in the way he thinks you want to hear it. His type of business (making deals and moving money) is all about manipulaing others to do what you desire.

    But folks just can't see through it because while they have become acustomed to the manipulation of politicians, they aren't really that familiar with the manipulation of private execs which is very different.

    Of course, part of why I don't fear Trump so much is I don't think his actions will match his rhetoric. Most of the most outrageous claims he made, won't turn into actions. That said, some of his cronies are not like him and do have a real agenda that could do people harm, and if Trump is indifferent, he may let them do those things so he can control them for the things he really finds important (whatever those are).

    It's not been said yet, but the Presidency changes people, and as a non-politician, I bet it will transform Trump in some interesting ways we may not expect or anticipate.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  10. #26
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Just a little perspective:

    [IMAGE]3781[/IMAGE]

    That and a 20 year low voter turnout.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #27
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    I think Trump won because millions of blue collar workers in America, many of which are really struggling, resonated with not only his message for the working class, but with the life-long relationships he has established with the average Joe. I attended one of his rallies in a very blue state and as much as one can dislike his bombastic attitude, there was no question that his words alone were not the only factor making inroads into the thousands of people in attendance, many of them working class Dems.

    In reflecting on this I think this is because throughout his life, he really has enjoyed establishing a relationship with the people who worked for him and people who didn't work for him. Even though he has some love/hate circumstances with his business dealings, if you consider the full context of his life and the thousands of people who have worked for him, his money and status did not stop him from establishing friendships with the average worker, so much so that he almost enjoyed being with them more than the boardroom. He seems to understand Joe and Joe knows and appreciates it. So to me it almost seems like this kinship has become part of his DNA -- to connect with the average guy on the street, which he has been doing for decades; somewhat unusual for a billionaire. On the campaign trail, I think this was a big asset for Trump, despite all his shortcomings and on Nov. 8 he got a big dividend on his long term investment in Joe the carpenter.
    Last edited by eye4magic; November 17th, 2016 at 09:34 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Eye4Magic, on what do you base this impression that Trump likes to socialize with low-level workers in his companies?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. #29
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Eye4Magic, on what do you base this impression that Trump likes to socialize with low-level workers in his companies?
    If you read some of Trump’s books, you can observe a number of things about him that depending on one’s perspective, can be seen as positives and/or negatives personality traits. As far as his overall life long relationship with workers. his comments during an interview in 1988 sums up his view about this I think this can also be observed in some of his books.

    “The people that I do best with are the ones who drive the taxis. You know wealthy people don’t like me because I’m competing against them all the time… when I go down the streets of New York the people who really like me are the taxi drivers and the workers….” Donald Trump 1988
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCabT_O0YSM

    There are other stories like this little video story in the broader context of his life.

    “I remember the night I was assigned to drive Mr. Trump to a meeting. I dropped him off and as he’s getting out of the car he said to me, ‘can I bring you a steak because I’m going to be in there for quite a while?’ Who am I for him to stop his meeting and bring me something to eat? William Campudoni

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm8n9qVIK_8
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