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  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

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    Why did Trump win?

    I just wanted to start this one out. It's not 100% at this moment but it's looking (to my surprise) like Trump is our next president.

    I'm looking for more discussion than debate here, I don't yet have a strong answer. The analysis of voting results should tell us a fair bit more than I can say right now. Clearly polls and predictions didn't quite get this one right. The electoral college was supposed to be pretty soundly in clinton's favor, but it didn't go that way, clearly.

    So lets here your theories, at the moment you don't even need to stronly support them, but hey, I'm sure they will get challenged so lets have a go shall we?


    Some initial thoughts based on ovservation and reading.
    1. The voters are sick and tired of the political establishment and any candidate who can rally that feeling is going to have an edge.
    2. Rural america is bleeding, and while it is a minority, it has great sympathy thorughout america.
    3. We are suffering a racist cultural backlash from having a black president.
    4. Hillary was just too weak a candidate with too much baggage to beat any GOP challenger.
    5. We are suffering a conservative backlash from what is percieved as a very liberal president.
    6. The proliferation of anything goes internet media has led to those with the least scruples about lying to control the uneducated voters
    7. The democrats are badly out of touch with the core crisis in america and have no idea how to reach those voters

    Stuff I don't think is the case but is out there circulating
    1. Americans are a bunch of racist bastards
    2. Third party candidates stole the election from Clinton
    3. Trump is going to make America great again.
    4. The election was rigged or there was rampant fraud
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  3. #2
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Ultimately, several things.

    1) The biggest reason, is because I voted for him and I am clearly representative of a majority of Americans.
    2) This is a testimony to how weak of a candidate Clinton was. There was a very strong vote against Hillary at play.
    3) You win when you motivate people to vote, not when your only message is to demoralize and demonize the other side. Again the weakness of Hillaries Campaign was that she had no message other than Trump sucks, and he has a basket of deplorable Americans that is voting for him. (even if not technically true, that is clearly the message I and many others got).
    4) On the other hand, Trump had a message the struck a deep cord. immigration is an issue that people really care about fixing, and democrats are the most recent party to fail.
    5) Grass roots matter. Hillary had the mechanisms but apparently trump's message hit a nerve


    ---Alternative----
    This is just in the pattern of history where the people change political party POTUS every 4-8 years. Can't remember the exact nature of the pattern but those that predicted a Trump win were looking at 80 years of history and not demographics and message etc. People just get sick of the incumbents.


    -----
    Bonus, not why he won, but something we learned.
    1) The media is horribly, horribly biased, and wrong.
    2) The entire premise of the analysis leading up to the election had huge blind spots where polls failed to find what was motivating people and that has deep issues going forward.
    To serve man.

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  5. #3
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    I was praying for his victory so that Clinton wouldn't win, and I know a lot of other Christians were too. Evidently God decided to answer our prayers.

    2) The entire premise of the analysis leading up to the election had huge blind spots where polls failed to find what was motivating people and that has deep issues going forward.
    One of their biggest blind spots is that they fail to take God into consideration.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

    Blog

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  7. #4
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Just a note: Lets geta a few takes on this from the regulars (and any new folks) before we start disagreeing with one another too much, just so we can geta full scope of ideas to work with here. Not a requirement, just a suggestion. I'm going to avoid responding to Theo there for now as a show of solidarity for this idea. Thanks for the input Theo.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  9. #5
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    I'm not going to say anything new here, but if I was going to make on succinct statement about why Trump won, it's this:

    Many people are unhappy with how things currently are so the candidate who represents change has a huge advantage. And that was clearly the difference between Clinton and Trump. Clinton basically represented a third Obama term with things going as they had been going for the past 8 years and Trump represented something else. Something else was more popular.
    Last edited by mican333; November 11th, 2016 at 12:33 PM.

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  11. #6
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    His business acumen was never questioned, he therefore never had to defend it or produce his taxes.

    Dems allowed him to distance himself from the republicans and run as a supposed outsider - which he clearly isn't as he was/is a major player in the birther movement.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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  13. #7
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    While there are undoubtedly many factors that contributed to this result, including many of those mentioned above, I believe there are two main ones:

    1) Racism/Xenophobia: I realize this is a sensitive topic, and white voters donít want to hear it, but it needs to be confronted. Letís not delude ourselves: Trump clearly played on white votersí fear and distrust of Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims. I am not saying that Trump himself is necessarily racist, I have no idea whether he is, but he capitalized on those sentiments in the electorate. The evidence of this is clear in the vast disparity between white and non-white support for Trump. Non-whites heard Trump loud and clear, and so did whites. The racist/xenophobic feelings may also explain the large polling discrepancy and the ďhiddenĒ white voters that Trumpís campaign had accurately predicted. The hidden voters did not respond at all, or did not respond accurately to polls, presumably because they were ashamed of their racist motivations.

    2) Idealism: Trump supporters, like Bernie Sanders supporters, are very idealistic. For example, many Trump supporters were enthusiastically attracted by the Trump promise to bring back high-paying, no skill, labor jobs. I donít think this is a realistic promise because it would require protectionist and socialist policies that are contrary to conservative Republican ideals of free market capitalism. In addition, those policies are likely to create trade wars and high inflation, both very damaging to the economy. Clinton, on the other hand, was more pragmatic and realistic in her approach to jobs and the economy. When Clinton talked about small, incremental improvements, it may have been realistic but not very appealing or exciting. When Sanders talked about free college and healthcare for everyone, or Trump talked about bringing back millions of high paying manufacturing jobs, those promises are very exciting but not very realistic. Pragmatism and realism donít play well with idealists. In addition, as we saw in both the Sanders and Trump campaigns, idealists tend to have an enthusiasm edge.

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  15. #8
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    I agree with some of the above observations. A few other possibilities to consider:

    1) The country reverted, generally, to status quo ante Obama. Electing the first woman President did not have the same appeal to independents, young voters and some Republicans as electing the first black President. Most obviously, there was no longer any reason for blacks to turn out in higher than normal numbers. This is generally a conservative country, as evidenced by periodic surveys and the overwhelming control of statehouses that Republicans enjoy. So, without any special attraction to help her, Clinton was just not a very good candidate which put Trump on at least equal footing.

    2) Many people, especially those in the Rust Belt that have been hurt and ignored by policies of both parties the last twenty years saw Trump as someone expressing their frustrations. Those losing good manufacturing jobs as companies move out of the country, along with those losing tech jobs to overseas outsourcing and foreigners holding US work visas had no reason to vote for Clinton. She and the Democrat party have not spoken at all to their needs for good jobs, appearing to focus instead on helping illegal immigrants, refugees and urban protesters.

    3) I think it will be found that religious conservatives turned out in force to vote for Trump, rather than staying home as a significant number did four years ago. He wasn't a Mormon, which many Christians view with much more antipathy than atheists, and he wanted to stop Muslim immigration.

    4) The extended primary challenge from Sanders hurt Clinton. I think it is likely that a significant number of his fervent supporters did not come home to the Democrat nominee. This is not unlike what happened to Carter in 1980 (Kennedy) and Bush in 1992 (Buchanan).
    Last edited by evensaul; November 9th, 2016 at 09:18 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  17. #9
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    I'm pretty much in lockstep with Mican on this one.

    Bernie was saying way back in the primaries that the Democrats need to pick someone other than an establishment politician, because people are sick of the establishment. He was also projected to have a far better chance to beat Trump than Hillary ever did. Top it off with the Clintons being the very definition of crooked politicians, and you've got a clear runway for someone, anyone, better than the same old bullsh!t. The Democratic Party got caught up in their own hype train, overplayed their hand, and lost everything.

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  19. #10
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    The Liberal playbook isnt working for the left anymore. Calling every single Republican a racist, homophobic and every other "ist" and "obic" that you can think of, while offering nothing of any substantive value beyond that eventually stops being effective.

    Aside from that, there are a bunch of reasons:

    1: people are sick of the establishment. Clinton was the very heart of establishment while President-elect Trump was the antithesis of it.

    2: President-elect Trump attacked issues that people actually believe in and effected them personally, while Clinton stuck to the "Im not Trump, vote for me" and the "Im a woman, vote for me" and the "Ive put in time, you owe me the Presidency". None of that is effective in motivating people to vote for you.

    3: Hillary was just an awful candidate. She was saturated with controversy, baggage and had more skeletons in her closet than you could shake a stick at. It didnt help that she had the appeal of a brick.

    4: Perhaps most of all, the left, in their typical arrogant fashion, underestimated their opponent. President-elect Trump has been a winner all of his life and wasnt weighed down by the politics of this country. Liberal ignorance and arrogance cost them more than anything else.

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  21. #11
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by SOMEGUY
    4: Perhaps most of all, the left, in their typical arrogant fashion, underestimated their opponent. President-elect Trump has been a winner all of his life and wasnt weighed down by the politics of this country. Liberal ignorance and arrogance cost them more than anything else.
    Talk about underestimate.
    John Oliver (funny guy from "last week tonight".. a funny show) http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...t-bpb-orig.cnn

    Basically he takes the blame for trump running and winning, because back in the 2013 he begged trump to run.
    I think his reaction in 2013 is really the typical response from the far left, and is due to that arrogance you speak of.


    ------
    A little review
    Back when McCain ran for pres against Obama, I was not happy with the prospects and Opined for someone like Trump.
    When I finally got him to run along with John Oliver, I changed my opinion to Dr. Ben Carson.
    On election night, I figured Hillary would win, because the electoral map just didn't look easy enough... O rather, because Hillary had so many more ways to win.

    So basically, except for a small time in 2013 due to a passing thought, I have been wrong. Though, for very different reasons.
    To serve man.

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  23. #12
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    President-elect Trump has been a winner all of his life
    Trump couldn't run a casino in Atlantic City. He's the very definition of establishment.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  24. #13
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) The biggest reason, is because I voted for him and I am clearly representative of a majority of Americans.
    The horror!

    2) This is a testimony to how weak of a candidate Clinton was. There was a very strong vote against Hillary at play.
    I think we all seem to agre with that in hindsight.

    3) You win when you motivate people to vote, not when your only message is to demoralize and demonize the other side. Again the weakness of Hillaries Campaign was that she had no message other than Trump sucks, and he has a basket of deplorable Americans that is voting for him. (even if not technically true, that is clearly the message I and many others got).
    THis one is interesting. Two Trump supporters here mentioned it so I'm guessing that more do. If you ask a Hillary supporter they can tell you what her message is just fine. She will protect womens rights (aka pro choice), fight to ensure healthrcare for the average citizen (aka preserve and perhaps expand HCA), ensure decency and equality for all americans (aka fight for civil rights), work towards american prosperity (aka middle class tax cuts and infrastructure investment), work agaisnt climate change to ensure the nations future (aka stick it to oil and coal companies and make more parks and green energy investments), and the list goes on. Basically the usual liberal agenda, but that's pretty much what most democrats want.

    Which is not to say your comment isn't meaningful. It does mean that if you are not a democrat, Hillary's message is meaningless and has not only no appeal, you can't even register its existence.

    4) On the other hand, Trump had a message the struck a deep cord. immigration is an issue that people really care about fixing, and democrats are the most recent party to fail.
    Immigration is definately one of his key issues and his take on it is clearly outside the normal bounds of politics.

    5) Grass roots matter. Hillary had the mechanisms but apparently trump's message hit a nerve
    Agreed. I think Hillary thought that Obama's technique was the key to his grass roots turnout. When it appears by her following it and failing, it was not his technique but his persona and message that allowed him to do what he did, twice.

    This is just in the pattern of history where the people change political party POTUS every 4-8 years. Can't remember the exact nature of the pattern but those that predicted a Trump win were looking at 80 years of history and not demographics and message etc. People just get sick of the incumbents.

    Could be, though I think then we'd have to ask, why is that pattern there and apply it to this election. Or at least I would. If there is a pattern I'm not content to just acknowledge it, I want to understand it. I think my case for a "backlash" would be part of that. Wtih any great success (politically) comes a swing back the other way as it galvanizes the resistance. Also, the parties are always pivoting and possitioning in reaction to it meaning no one side can hang on to a big majority for very long before the other adapts to counter.

    Bonuses

    1) The media is horribly, horribly biased, and wrong.
    They definately went biased this time. Nearly every major newspaper, including many conservative ones went Hillary. Mind you on the left, many blame the media for unfairly giving much more attention to Trump, and the idea that even bad attention is still attention.

    They were however obviously out of touch and made the smae intilectual mistakes I did in evaluating the outcome.

    2) The entire premise of the analysis leading up to the election had huge blind spots where polls failed to find what was motivating people and that has deep issues going forward.
    Yes. I think that their past success had the efect of leading us to expect future results. (if you do any investment that idea should be familiar) They were pretty good at predictions in many cases but missed the mark here. Why is a good question however, and I don't know yet. Were people fooling the pollsters with inacurate ansers? Was the landscape shifting too fast? Were the turnout modles simply flawed and misjudjed how disaffected people were or how enraged they were? Ultimately they are predicting and its prone to be wrong sometimes.

    ---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    I was praying for his victory so that Clinton wouldn't win, and I know a lot of other Christians were too. Evidently God decided to answer our prayers.
    Spoken like a man of faith. As a man of reason, I have to point out the following.
    1. Certainly some people also prayed for Clinton to win (I know of a few)
    2. God doesn't just do what people pray for, he presumably does what he wants to do and thinks is best
    3. I'm guessing that you and your same freinds prayed for Obama to loose, yet he won, twice despite your prayers.

    The actual evidence is that what you pray for is likely just coincidental to what happens in events outside your direct control.

    One of their biggest blind spots is that they fail to take God into consideration.
    It's hard for me to see why god is interested in the leadership of a bigamist and adulterer who champions greed and luxury while excluding the downtrodden and needy because they would take to much of our treasure and who sits on a golden throne, puts his name in gold letters on the things he owns and generally acts exactly unlike jesus in nearly every way one can imagine. That would be a mad idiot god, not the Christian one. The man breaks many of the 10 commandments quite regularly and has stated he doesn't require God's fogiveness.

    ---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Many people are unhappy with how things currently are so the candidate who represents change has a huge advantage. And that was clearly the difference between Clinton and Trump. Clinton basically represented a third Obama term with things going as they had been going for the past 8 years and Trump represented something else. Something else was more popular.
    I think this is a big factor and one the Democrats didn't succesfully counter or account for. As "flexible" as Hillary Clinton is in her exact policy possitions, the one thing she is incapable of is anything radically outside the ordinary or even remotely revolutionary. (At least not in today's America, she'd be plenty radical a century ago!)

    The Left was thinking "anything else" with respect to Trump while the right thought "anything else" with respect to Clinton, and the indipendents though "anything else" with respect to the status quo, and that had Hillary's face all over it.

    I'd say this was the #1 reason and explains how a lot of the others worked out. The tipping point if you will.

    ---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    His business acumen was never questioned, he therefore never had to defend it or produce his taxes.
    I disagree. Surely you must have seen the bazillion articles about his business failures and bankruptcies. They were everywhere in both mainstream and alternative press. It was questioned constantly and repeatedly through the whole campaign.

    I think the probelm is it rings hollow for two reasons.
    1. He's obviously fantastically rich anyhow so he must be doing something right compared to the average joe
    2. Anyone who is a "fan" of business and reads the literature knows the common wisdom is that success only comes on the back of failure and persistance. That most businesss fail, but good business men keep trying anyhow until they find success. So Trump having bankruptsies and failures just means he overcomes adversity to find ultimate success.

    Dems allowed him to distance himself from the republicans and run as a supposed outsider - which he clearly isn't as he was/is a major player in the birther movement.
    Perhaps, but consider this... Trump got fewer votes overall than either Mcain or Romney did in their losses to Obama, that despite a somewhat larger overall us population. They were both pretty establishment focused and yet they did better than the outsider did, yet the outsider won... I think that speaks mostly to Clinton being weak and Obama being incredibly strong as a candidate.

    I do think they could have done more to paint trump as an isider, but I'm not sure it would stick well. He just doesn't act like any insider we know or have ever seen in politics. Nor are his policies stock republican ones. And even where they are, he can and does tap dance around them non-comittaly.

    ---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    Racism/Xenophobia: I realize this is a sensitive topic, and white voters don’t want to hear it, but it needs to be confronted. Let’s not delude ourselves: Trump clearly played on white voters’ fear and distrust of Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims. I am not saying that Trump himself is necessarily racist, I have no idea whether he is, but he capitalized on those sentiments in the electorate. The evidence of this is clear in the vast disparity between white and non-white support for Trump. Non-whites heard Trump loud and clear, and so did whites. The racist/xenophobic feelings may also explain the large polling discrepancy and the “hidden” white voters that Trump’s campaign had accurately predicted. The hidden voters did not respond at all, or did not respond accurately to polls, presumably because they were ashamed of their racist motivations.
    Few topics are too sensitive for ODN so no worries there. Racism is a stalwart if anything.

    No doubt Trump had his racist supporters, but even the moderate Bush Sr likely got some votes from racists. Furthermore, a greater percentage of minorities who voted chose Trump compared to the prior two elections. Also, counties that voted for Obama, voted for Trump. How did a black man win a racist vote in the past and why were more minorities persuaded to vote for a racist than the prior two republicans?

    Xenophobia may be more near the mark. But we have to remember there are some legitimate sides to the immigration issue (illegals are breaking the law). Its not all racism. When immigrants were mostly white, folks found reasons to mark them as outsiders as well, thus the Xeonophobia angle is a better fit for immigration.

    So while racism and Xenophobia are part of Trumps base of support, I'm not sure it was what made a difference compared to past elections where the democrats won.

    2) Idealism: Trump supporters, like Bernie Sanders supporters, are very idealistic. For example, many Trump supporters were enthusiastically attracted by the Trump promise to bring back high-paying, no skill, labor jobs. I don’t think this is a realistic promise because it would require protectionist and socialist policies that are contrary to conservative Republican ideals of free market capitalism. In addition, those policies are likely to create trade wars and high inflation, both very damaging to the economy. Clinton, on the other hand, was more pragmatic and realistic in her approach to jobs and the economy. When Clinton talked about small, incremental improvements, it may have been realistic but not very appealing or exciting. When Sanders talked about free college and healthcare for everyone, or Trump talked about bringing back millions of high paying manufacturing jobs, those promises are very exciting but not very realistic. Pragmatism and realism don’t play well with idealists. In addition, as we saw in both the Sanders and Trump campaigns, idealists tend to have an enthusiasm edge.
    I agree. I think this is why anyone outside the Dem establishment would say Hillary had no message at all. She did, it just wasn't anything anyone cared to take much note of or remark on. Look at Tumps first 100 day agenda. That is some radical **** right there. We will see how much of that he actually tries for, but it's definately something to talk about and anticipate with fear or excitement depending on your take.

    Even if you are a true moderate in tempermant (as is Obama) you have to project an aura of radical vision (which he did). Clinton just doesn't want radical things, the best she can do is muster excitement about moderate things.

    ---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    1) The country reverted, generally, to status quo ante Obama.
    Yep!
    2) Many people, especially those in the Rust Belt that have been hurt and ignored by policies of both parties the last twenty years saw Trump as someone expressing their frustrations.
    Also very true.

    3) I think it will be found that religious conservatives turned out in force to vote for Trump, rather than staying home as a significant number did four years ago. He wasn't a Mormon, which many Christians view with much more antipathy than atheists, and he wanted to stop Muslim immigration.
    Indeed, despite devision among many christian pundits/leaders, the hard core showed up and supported Trump while hard core lefties apparently left Clinton in the dust.

    4) The extended primary challenge from Sanders hurt Clinton. I think it is likely that a significant number of his fervent supporters did not come home to the Democrat nominee. This is not unlike what happened to Carter in 1980 (Kennedy) and Bush in 1992 (Buchanan).
    Perhaps. It only helped Trump and both candidates divided their base somewhat. Stauch serious republican intelectuals turned from trump while populist liberals turned from Hillary. Apparently there are more populist livberals than conservative intilectuals.

    ---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    The Liberal playbook isnt working for the left anymore. Calling every single Republican a racist, homophobic and every other "ist" and "obic" that you can think of, while offering nothing of any substantive value beyond that eventually stops being effective.
    I think there is truth to that. I often get on the GOP for utterly failing to appeal to minority voters, but over the last decade I think we can also say that the Dems have utterly failed to appeal to working class white voters. And you can absolutely do that without pandering to racism or the like since most of them are not that. On these issues both sides need to stop with the "but we are correct!" and focus more on simply being more appealing in how they say what they want to say.

    1: people are sick of the establishment. Clinton was the very heart of establishment while President-elect Trump was the antithesis of it.
    Definately, lots of agreement on this among us all it seems.

    2: President-elect Trump attacked issues that people actually believe in and effected them personally, while Clinton stuck to the "Im not Trump, vote for me" and the "Im a woman, vote for me" and the "Ive put in time, you owe me the Presidency". None of that is effective in motivating people to vote for you.
    Again, its not that she didn't speak to anyone. Many women, gay people and minorities heard her speak to them and their issues, but it ws to narrow and not strong enough. And certainly there were many whom she was not speaking too, too many.
    3: Hillary was just an awful candidate. She was saturated with controversy, baggage and had more skeletons in her closet than you could shake a stick at. It didnt help that she had the appeal of a brick.
    Agreed. By the books, I'm OK with lots of her possitions, but I still didn't like her that much.

    4: Perhaps most of all, the left, in their typical arrogant fashion, underestimated their opponent. President-elect Trump has been a winner all of his life and wasnt weighed down by the politics of this country. Liberal ignorance and arrogance cost them more than anything else.
    True. He was constantly underestimated. And for my part, I over estimated the criticality with which people would see him. It boggles my mind people beleive what he says when he so commonly says things that contradict what he said earlier and so often says he will do X and then does Y and then denies he ever said X despite it being on tape. I don't understand how anyone believes anything he says. But clearly they do or they just don't care that he lies like that.

    Underestimation is always dangerous and easy to do.

    ---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

    My latest add to this

    The **** you Vote. Exit polling showed that 1 in 5 of people who were worried about Trump as president voted Trump. 1 in 5 who though the wall was a bad idea... voted Trump. 1 in 5 worried about racism in america... Voted Trump. 1 in 5 who wanted more immigration allowed... you guessed it, voted Trump.

    Why? Well we don't know but my guess is these people's first priority is to shake up the system by any means nessesary or simply have an anarchist impluse to shatter the status quo using the biggest hammer they can get their hands on, whatevewr the damage it may cause.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  26. #14
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post

    I disagree. Surely you must have seen the bazillion articles about his business failures and bankruptcies. They were everywhere in both mainstream and alternative press. It was questioned constantly and repeatedly through the whole campaign.

    I think the probelm is it rings hollow for two reasons.
    1. He's obviously fantastically rich anyhow so he must be doing something right compared to the average joe
    2. Anyone who is a "fan" of business and reads the literature knows the common wisdom is that success only comes on the back of failure and persistance. That most businesss fail, but good business men keep trying anyhow until they find success. So Trump having bankruptsies and failures just means he overcomes adversity to find ultimate success.
    Not. His financials were never fully released allowing him to cast doubt on what had been leaked.

    He was born on third base with a silver spoon in his mouth - that's how he differs from the average Joe. Little was produced about his father's influence in his "deals" or his questionable practices or dealings with organized crime (compare that to what had been drummed up about Hillary).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not. His financials were never fully released allowing him to cast doubt on what had been leaked.

    He was born on third base with a silver spoon in his mouth - that's how he differs from the average Joe. Little was produced about his father's influence in his "deals" or his questionable practices or dealings with organized crime (compare that to what had been drummed up about Hillary).
    His taxes are not his finances. They may show his income, but not how his businesses are run. I know mine certainly don't. Yes he was born into money, but that doesn't meen one thing or another about his business skills. The fact is he's fitlhy rich in his own right today and its not just an ingeritance he owns and opperates many businesses. And even if he did work with criminals, that doesn't mean he's not good at business.

    I know you want to really dislike him in all ways possible, but the guy has made fortunes in business and is fantastically rich. That doesn't mean he is a genious, but he is succesfull.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  29. #16
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    His taxes are not his finances. They may show his income, but not how his businesses are run. I know mine certainly don't. Yes he was born into money, but that doesn't meen one thing or another about his business skills. The fact is he's fitlhy rich in his own right today and its not just an ingeritance he owns and opperates many businesses. And even if he did work with criminals, that doesn't mean he's not good at business.

    I know you want to really dislike him in all ways possible, but the guy has made fortunes in business and is fantastically rich. That doesn't mean he is a genious, but he is succesfull.
    Supposing I agree with that - I guess one measure of success could be money - how does that transfer into running a government?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Supposing I agree with that - I guess one measure of success could be money - how does that transfer into running a government?
    I don't think it does much at all. To some extent leadership is leadership and he has some expereince with that. Also, if you are in business, you have an understnading of business, and that can be helpful in crafting policy and working with business on private/public efforts. Certainly being very ignorant of business is a problem for a politician.

    Where I think most thing it is good "Hes good at business so he's going to fix the economy." Is total bunk. Managing business is a very direct thing in my expereince. You have a fair bit of control. An economy the size of the US is not like that. Everything you do is very indirect and slow to take effect and your "touch" is generally very light. You can't just order the economy to do things, its composed of milliions of people and businesses all doing theri own thing for their own reasons.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    She will protect womens rights (aka pro choice)
    And by doing so she will deprive the unborn of their right to life. If you think abortion is a good thing perhaps you should read this:

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/molech/

    Women have a responsibility to care for their children, not the right to kill them.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    And by doing so she will deprive the unborn of their right to life. If you think abortion is a good thing perhaps you should read this:
    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/molech/
    Women have a responsibility to care for their children, not the right to kill them.
    The question was "does she have an agenda?" not "Do you like her agenda?" We will not have an abortion debate here, take it elsewhere on the board.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  34. #20
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    Re: Why did Trump win?

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    And by doing so she will deprive the unborn of their right to life. If you think abortion is a good thing perhaps you should read this:

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/molech/

    Women have a responsibility to care for their children, not the right to kill them.
    You must have never known someone with an ectopic pregnancy.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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