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  1. #1
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    President-elect Trump

    Thank GOD.....I was dreading the prospect of a Killary Klinton Presidency. I cant even begin to explain how happy I am that President-elect Trump proved everyone wrong and came through on top.

    This is the first time in my adult life that I am truly proud of this country.

    I woke up this morning and the sun seemed a bit brighter, the wind a bit cooler, the skies a bit clearer and the birds a bit chirpier.

    Its a great day for America, folks. We can start undoing the disaster of the Obummer years and get on track to "Make American Great AGAIN"

    God bless.

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  3. #2
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    This is the first time in my adult life that I am truly proud of this country.
    Funny, I remember somebody getting pilloried when they said something like that.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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  5. #3
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Funny, I remember somebody getting pilloried when they said something like that.
    Yes the right wing tried to tear Michelle Obama a new one for exactly that kind of statement. Sorry Someguy but you are apparently unamerican and a traitor for not having always ben absolutely proud of being an American! (joke of course)

    Anyhow, I'm glad you are feeling shiny, I think this turkey will be something of a disaster but it will be interesting to watch what happens. Not a dull moment in a Trump America I think.
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  7. #4
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Another Trump Note...

    I like many of his post election statements. I read his acceptance speech and it had a lot of good stuff there. I saw his little meet with Obama and he said the right things.

    Here is my problem though, on so many occasions he has said such awful things, things that utterly contradict things he said in these meetings. And I've watched him savage primary opponents, then praise them when they drop out and join his crony crew. Which is what he really things and means, I've no idea.

    Its my expereince in business that really worries me. So often I've ben told the right things by people and thought, this person is a good person, they have my back, they want to do a good job. And then before long, I learn that was a bunch of ******** designed exactly to playcate me and keep me from getting in their way and before long, I find myself stabbed in the back and they are doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do. So my lesson has been that when you see a nice side, and a bastard side, its the bastard side that is true and the nice side is a bunch of **** designed to make you accept them so you don't get in the way of the bastard **** they have planned for you and so no one else will accept what you say if you see behind the mask.

    I really want to like and trust poeple. I really want to like Trump and trust him as a president. But every warning and alarm from years of dealing with two faced bastards tells me he is an absolute paragon of their order and I should only ever trust what he does, not anything he says.
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  8. #5
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Another Trump Note...

    I like many of his post election statements. I read his acceptance speech and it had a lot of good stuff there. I saw his little meet with Obama and he said the right things.

    Here is my problem though, on so many occasions he has said such awful things, things that utterly contradict things he said in these meetings. And I've watched him savage primary opponents, then praise them when they drop out and join his crony crew. Which is what he really things and means, I've no idea.

    Its my expereince in business that really worries me. So often I've ben told the right things by people and thought, this person is a good person, they have my back, they want to do a good job. And then before long, I learn that was a bunch of ******** designed exactly to playcate me and keep me from getting in their way and before long, I find myself stabbed in the back and they are doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do. So my lesson has been that when you see a nice side, and a bastard side, its the bastard side that is true and the nice side is a bunch of **** designed to make you accept them so you don't get in the way of the bastard **** they have planned for you and so no one else will accept what you say if you see behind the mask.

    I really want to like and trust poeple. I really want to like Trump and trust him as a president. But every warning and alarm from years of dealing with two faced bastards tells me he is an absolute paragon of their order and I should only ever trust what he does, not anything he says.
    I think this has already begun with his meeting with Obama and the things he said about Hillary after the win. Meanwhile look at his plan for his first hundred days. Pretty much more of the same from a supposed "anti-establishment" candidate as he follows the republican playbook.

    Healthcare savings accounts? Another big handout to the insurance industry instead of fixing what's wrong with Obamacare (which is that republicans have obstructed and introduced poison pills into it).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #6
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think this has already begun with his meeting with Obama and the things he said about Hillary after the win. Meanwhile look at his plan for his first hundred days. Pretty much more of the same from a supposed "anti-establishment" candidate as he follows the republican playbook.

    Healthcare savings accounts? Another big handout to the insurance industry instead of fixing what's wrong with Obamacare (which is that republicans have obstructed and introduced poison pills into it).
    Has any Liberal ever done anything not perfect? Has any conservative ever done anything right? I noticed you never seem to give blame to the left without finding a way to claim the right really is at fault. And never give credit to the right without actually saying the left is to thank for it.

    Is this sort of ignorant neoliberal fascist elitism that cost your side so dearly this election and will continue to haunt your side until you realize that your own myopic world view is to blame rather than "uneducated white men" (which is a thinly veiled insult which is basically your version of calling them a 'nigger'

  10. #7
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Has any Liberal ever done anything not perfect? Has any conservative ever done anything right? I noticed you never seem to give blame to the left without finding a way to claim the right really is at fault. And never give credit to the right without actually saying the left is to thank for it.
    What blame would you have me give? Obamacare had its problems from the beginning which is how it was designed and it was believed that adjustments going forward would make it work better...the same as happened with social security. I agree that it is near to design things like this to be perfect, especially without the aid of foresight.

    Conservatives actively worked against it - not implementing it and introducing poison pills (they've done the same with the postal service) in order to score political points through ideology.

    Obama didn't include a public option. Reagan worked with Tip O'Neill to help social security through the baby boom retirement. So that's liberal doing something wrong and a conservative doing something right.

    Where Obamacare has been implemented properly (here in Massachusetts, for example) it is working great. My health insurance has not gone up for the second year in a row. The last two months of the fiscal year (July and August) I was given a "premium holiday" and didn't have to pay the premiums for those two months...when does that ever happen? For individuals like myself the premiums are not going up this years and for the other new options have been created - family, +1, spouse, and child - and their premiums are going down. And expanded access and an additional optional buy-in for expanded vision on top of the already free vision plan.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #8
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    That's not how legislation should be passed. You don't, or shouldn't, pass a law that needs to be fixed continuously to "make it work". The Constitution wasn't passed that way and we are all doing well by it. Surely, you allow yourself the ability to improve, but if your legislation needs to be continuously and dramatically "improved" in order to "work" you have a flawed product that needs to be fixed completely, not patched up on the fly.

    Furthermore, while Obamacare might work for you, it is royally screwing huge segments of the population. (aren't liberals the ones always giving lip service to the whole idea of government working for everyone?) My insurance is fine, I got mine through the VA, it's not prefect, but I don't pay a premium at all. My wife though, her insurance premium doubled, her deductible tripled and her coverage slashed. Obamacare sucks for most ppl and needs to be replaced. Most government projects are vastly inferior to the private options that can, or will be be offered.

    The GOP did exactly what the ppl who elected them wanted. They didn't want Obamacare and they swept out RINOS who supported it and replaced them with ppl who represented their views. That's how our politicial system works. Politicians are elected, in theory at least, to represent the will of the ppl who put them their.
    Last edited by Someguy; November 11th, 2016 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Fixing autocorrect errord

  12. #9
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    That's not how legislation should be passed. You don't, or shouldn't, pass a law that needs to be fixed continuously to "make it work". The Constitution wasn't passed that way and we are all doing well by it.
    You're kidding, right? (I didn't read any further than this) That is simply not true since the Constitution has been amended many times. Situations and variables change.

    Would your example work in the business world? Should Sears Roebuck still be delivering dry goods by railroad to have them picked up at the station?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #10
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think this has already begun with his meeting with Obama and the things he said about Hillary after the win. Meanwhile look at his plan for his first hundred days. Pretty much more of the same from a supposed "anti-establishment" candidate as he follows the republican playbook.
    That first 100 day plan was done before the election finished, not after. I take it wiht a mountain of salt. I've no idea if he really plans to do any of that. IT's possible, but only actual actions are going to count for me. Stuff he says is just hot air until he does.

    Healthcare savings accounts? Another big handout to the insurance industry instead of fixing what's wrong with Obamacare (which is that republicans have obstructed and introduced poison pills into it).
    I sued to have an HSA and I loved it! Way way better for me than any insurance program. Give me that and a catastrophic plan and I'm a happy camper. It was not a big handout to any insurance company, it was a handout to me. I could not only pay my medical expenses (any and all of them) but also my wife's and I chose what to spend it on. It was great for me. It's not what everyone needs. Its not good for people who have cronic illness already.

    I think we need a two teir kind of system. A front line insurance for healthy people that has a liability limit and features something like HSA for the day to day medical bills. THat would have an Obama care like subsidy for those that can't affford the baseline. A backup system that is a single payer like Medicare/Medicaid for the folks that go veyond the liability limit on the front line system and is entirely government funded.

    That and some massive legislative reform that allows medical care to be more competative (and yes that means more risk depending on what patients choose).

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're kidding, right? (I didn't read any further than this) That is simply not true since the Constitution has been amended many times. Situations and variables change.
    He said more than that so not reading further was an error on your part.

    He said that if its broken enough, its better to start over. Small adjustments are fine, but if you have to make major changes, you might as well start from scratch and make a much better system. I think there is truth in that.

    AHCA had good goals, and some great ideas. It also had some unrealistic expectations and flawed assumptions. The marketplaces were a good notion, an easy way to compare and buy insurance. The standards of coverage are a good notion, though I'd make them recomendations rather than requriements. Covering pre-existing conditions is something we should do, but it can't be done by traditional insurance. Mandates are the fix to that but they were not enforcable and and as a result didn't work. They also really rub many people the wrong way and if a law is unpopular enough it can't last.

    I'd support reform based on AHCA and would not vote to overturn it. But it does need some serious attention and due to who is in power, it may get eliminated in the next 4 years.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. #11
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post

    He said that if its broken enough, its better to start over. Small adjustments are fine, but if you have to make major changes, you might as well start from scratch and make a much better system. I think there is truth in that.
    But that's not the problem with Obamacare. The small changes haven't even been identified, rather, the obstructionism and poison pills inserted by the republicans have caused major problems.

    And just to be clear, you're saying he said we should've started over with a new Constitution instead of amending it?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #12
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But that's not the problem with Obamacare. The small changes haven't even been identified, rather, the obstructionism and poison pills inserted by the republicans have caused major problems.

    And just to be clear, you're saying he said we should've started over with a new Constitution instead of amending it?
    Second half first. I'll let him decide what he things should be adjusted and what needs an overhaul, I think it comes down to a pragmatic look at what you think is wrong and what you think works and how you go from point A to B.


    Obamacare has some fundamental challenges...
    1. People are not universally getting insurance, many are simply opting to pay a tax penalty or have found loopholes to go around it
    2. Many of the exchanges are not earning enough money to pay for themselves and have overrun their budgets
    3. Insurance companies are often loosing money and pulling out of the exchanges
    4. A number of people were forced to abandon their old policies that they liked
    5. Many people deeply resent the mandatory insurance requirement
    6. It is costing the government a lot of money and increased overall costs significantly (mostly due to so many more people on the medicaid programs)
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  16. #13
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Second half first. I'll let him decide what he things should be adjusted and what needs an overhaul, I think it comes down to a pragmatic look at what you think is wrong and what you think works and how you go from point A to B.


    Obamacare has some fundamental challenges...
    1. People are not universally getting insurance, many are simply opting to pay a tax penalty or have found loopholes to go around it
    2. Many of the exchanges are not earning enough money to pay for themselves and have overrun their budgets
    3. Insurance companies are often loosing money and pulling out of the exchanges
    4. A number of people were forced to abandon their old policies that they liked
    5. Many people deeply resent the mandatory insurance requirement
    6. It is costing the government a lot of money and increased overall costs significantly (mostly due to so many more people on the medicaid programs)
    Most of what you allude to would be tempered if the medicare expansions took place and if republicans hadn't cut the guard rail subsidies.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #14
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Most of what you allude to would be tempered if the medicare expansions took place and if republicans hadn't cut the guard rail subsidies.
    How?
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  18. #15
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    How?
    "3. Insurance companies are often loosing money and pulling out of the exchanges"

    Paul Ryan cut the guard rail subsidies that helped the insurance companies insure those not "profitable" to them. You know, the way it worked before. It also helped cover those with preexisting conditions.

    The market based solution to this failed.

    Do you have a better idea?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #16
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "3. Insurance companies are often loosing money and pulling out of the exchanges"

    Paul Ryan cut the guard rail subsidies that helped the insurance companies insure those not "profitable" to them. You know, the way it worked before. It also helped cover those with preexisting conditions.
    I'm not finding anything with a google search on "guard rail subsidies obamacare" have you got a source for me?

    Do you have a better idea?
    I have lots of ideas but they are pretty radical and frankly I don't know if they are better in practice or not. I imagine they might be. I think that is beyond the scope of this debate though.

    You had said it would fix "most" of the problems I listed, so far you cited one of them and my limited understanding is that the state would simply pay insurers to cover any losses on policies in a given market.
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  20. #17
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'm not finding anything with a google search on "guard rail subsidies obamacare" have you got a source for me?


    Right, sorry, it's called "risk corridors".

    "The Republican presidential candidate was on "Meet the Press" this weekend and had a lengthy exchange with moderator Chuck Todd about his efforts to curtail the risk corridor program. Rubio gave his usual speech, arguing that taxpayers shouldn't be asked to "bail out" insurers. But Todd pressed, saying that Rubio's work to eliminate the program would lead to higher premiums — "so you're hitting [taxpayers] in the pocket somewhere."

    I can try to answer all of your points. #1, for example, that is exactly how it is supposed to work - with the penalties getting large over time.

    #2 seems like it is related to #3 or may be the same thing

    #4 true, I'm not sure how relevant that it is, that happened all the time when an insurance company changed something or when an employer switched insurers or coverage. In this case it was to add things like pre-existing conditions and other mandates.

    #5 They'll get over it. I pay for many think I don't like to.

    #6 Yes, costing more, but covering more with the end game bringing costs down (not the total cost).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #18
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Right. Let's keep punishing people with larger penalties to force them to find ways to buy something they don't want, don't need and can't afford in order to provide for someone else and to enrich the lobbiest and empower the government to control our daily lives. Sounds like a lovely idea. And liberals are wondering why they lose.

  22. #19
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Right. Let's keep punishing people with larger penalties to force them to find ways to buy something they don't want, don't need and can't afford in order to provide for someone else and to enrich the lobbiest and empower the government to control our daily lives. Sounds like a lovely idea. And liberals are wondering why they lose.
    I agree, going with the conservative's plan was a mistake.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  23. #20
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    Re: President-elect Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I agree, going with the conservative's plan was a mistake.
    This reminds me of my critique earlier, "Everything good =Liberal doing. Everything bad =GOP" Even if we need to employ revisionist history to pretend like it's the GOPs fault, whatever it takes to keep up this charade.

    The people see through this nonsense now, thankfully. And reading the leftist posts on ODN and elsewhere gives me great hope that the left won't learn a thing. I was relieved on election night, I'm doubly more so now.

 

 
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