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  1. #1
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    "Rigged" election?

    Experts Urge Clinton Campaign to Challenge Election Results in 3 Swing States


    "Hillary Clinton is being urged by a group of prominent computer scientists and election lawyers to call for a recount in three swing states won by Donald Trump, New York has learned. The group, which includes voting-rights attorney John Bonifaz and J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, believes they’ve found persuasive evidence that results in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania may have been manipulated or hacked. The group is so far not speaking on the record about their findings and is focused on lobbying the Clinton team in private.

    Last Thursday, the activists held a conference call with Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta and campaign general counsel Marc Elias to make their case, according to a source briefed on the call. The academics presented findings showing that in Wisconsin, Clinton received 7 percent fewer votes in counties that relied on electronic-voting machines compared with counties that used optical scanners and paper ballots. Based on this statistical analysis, Clinton may have been denied as many as 30,000 votes; she lost Wisconsin by 27,000. While it’s important to note the group has not found proof of hacking or manipulation, they are arguing to the campaign that the suspicious pattern merits an independent review — especially in light of the fact that the Obama White House has accused the Russian government of hacking the Democratic National Committee.

    According to current tallies, Trump has won 290 Electoral College votes to Clinton’s 232, with Michigan’s 16 votes not apportioned because the race there is still too close to call. It would take overturning the results in both Wisconsin (10 Electoral College votes) and Pennsylvania (20 votes), in addition to winning Michigan’s 16, for Clinton to win the Electoral College. There is also the complicating factor of “faithless electors,” or members of the Electoral College who do not vote according to the popular vote in their states. At least six electoral voters have said they would not vote for Trump, despite the fact that he won their states.

    The Clinton camp is running out of time to challenge the election. According to one of the activists, the deadline in Wisconsin to file for a recount is Friday; in Pennsylvania, it’s Monday; and Michigan is next Wednesday. Whether Clinton will call for a recount remains unclear. The academics so far have only a circumstantial case that would require not just a recount but a forensic audit of voting machines. Also complicating matters, a senior Clinton adviser said, is that the White House, focused on a smooth transfer of power, does not want Clinton to challenge the election result. Clinton communications director Jennifer Palmieri did not respond to a request for comment. But some Clinton allies are intent on pushing the issue. This afternoon, Huma Abedin’s sister Heba encouraged her Facebook followers to lobby the Justice Department to audit the 2016 vote. “Call the DOJ…and tell them you want the votes audited,” she wrote. “Even if it’s busy, keep calling.”"
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  2. #2
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Sounds pretty far fetched. If they can get around to proving it, fine, but this election is over and it wasn't really that close.

    I don't think anything is going to come of this. Election systems are pretty well thought out and hard to cheat at. Ive read a lot of wise rebuttals to Trumps claim everyting is rigged etc...

    I'm all for looking into it, but I don't think trying to challenge the results off the bat is a good political move.
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  3. #3
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Sounds pretty far fetched. If they can get around to proving it, fine, but this election is over and it wasn't really that close.

    I don't think anything is going to come of this. Election systems are pretty well thought out and hard to cheat at. Ive read a lot of wise rebuttals to Trumps claim everyting is rigged etc...

    I'm all for looking into it, but I don't think trying to challenge the results off the bat is a good political move.

    More far-fetched than widespread voter fraud?

    and not close? She's winning by 1.7 million votes.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    More far-fetched than widespread voter fraud?

    and not close? She's winning by 1.7 million votes.
    That doesn't make it close, its the electoral colledge after all. You have to turn at least 3 different states to turn the election. Its not like Bush V Gore. It's not more far fetched than widespread voter fraud, its less far fetched than that.

    I did some digging, the sceintists in question are not actually saying it was rigged, they don't have any direct evidence of that. They are saying it could have been and that the outcome was far enough from the poll results to justify trying to find out if it was acurate or not. Thing is, Clinton will have to put up the costs for a recount if she challenges and that could be in the millions of dolars, so with only a slim chance of anything coming of it, I don't expect they will take that chance. But we will see, lots of surprises this election and safe bets didn't always pay out and long shots often did.[COLOR="Silver"]
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  6. #5
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    That doesn't make it close, its the electoral colledge after all. You have to turn at least 3 different states to turn the election. Its not like Bush V Gore. It's not more far fetched than widespread voter fraud, its less far fetched than that.

    I did some digging, the sceintists in question are not actually saying it was rigged, they don't have any direct evidence of that. They are saying it could have been and that the outcome was far enough from the poll results to justify trying to find out if it was acurate or not. Thing is, Clinton will have to put up the costs for a recount if she challenges and that could be in the millions of dolars, so with only a slim chance of anything coming of it, I don't expect they will take that chance. But we will see, lots of surprises this election and safe bets didn't always pay out and long shots often did.[COLOR="Silver"]
    It's over 2 million now.

    and funny, there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud yet that didn't stop us from enacting all sorts of measures to "protect" the vote.


    "Clinton fell about 27,000 votes shy of Trump in Wisconsin and 60,000 in Pennsylvania -- razor thin margins in both states. Votes are still being tallied in Michigan, which CNN has not called for either candidate yet."
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  7. #6
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    It's over 2 million now.

    and funny, there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud yet that didn't stop us from enacting all sorts of measures to "protect" the vote.
    I'm with Sig. If there is any evidence, or even a good reason. Then I would like to see an investigation.
    That said, I'm not very optimistic that they would find significant hacking. As I understand it, you have to physically interact with any machine you want to hack.
    That isn't something you can do from Moscow.

    More importantly. Do you understand why the popular vote doesn't really matter about who should win the election? I mean, short of every single person, or the vast majority of the population voting.
    The fact that the big cities turn out 1 or 2 or even 3 million more people than is required to win that state.. isn't what matters. They are getting counted by the electoral college by the huge number of electoral votes they count for. 2mil people in California(a small portion of the population) out weigh every single person of my state (assuming they would all to a man vote), they out weigh by an order of 6 or so.

    Anyway, just curious if you grasp the concept, and why your point is pretty irrelevant even though it is a favorite of the left to harp on.
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  8. #7
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm with Sig. If there is any evidence, or even a good reason. Then I would like to see an investigation.
    That said, I'm not very optimistic that they would find significant hacking. As I understand it, you have to physically interact with any machine you want to hack.
    That isn't something you can do from Moscow.

    More importantly. Do you understand why the popular vote doesn't really matter about who should win the election? I mean, short of every single person, or the vast majority of the population voting.
    The fact that the big cities turn out 1 or 2 or even 3 million more people than is required to win that state.. isn't what matters. They are getting counted by the electoral college by the huge number of electoral votes they count for. 2mil people in California(a small portion of the population) out weigh every single person of my state (assuming they would all to a man vote), they out weigh by an order of 6 or so.

    Anyway, just curious if you grasp the concept, and why your point is pretty irrelevant even though it is a favorite of the left to harp on.
    Again, no evidence was used as the excuse to enact restrictive voter ID laws...so why not even look at this?

    Are you similarly against what is going on in North Carolina?

    Who said it happened from Moscow?

    Makes sense that if you did want to try and "rig" it, you'd do it where the margins were the most close, no?
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Again, no evidence was used as the excuse to enact restrictive voter ID laws...so why not even look at this?
    Well, one is an investigation, one is raising security levels. So, kinda different. We put all sorts of laws and safeguards in place with zero "evidence" that it has occurred... and that is o.k.
    If the argument is, we will have more secure elections if we have Voter ID laws. That is sufficient to enact the law if enough people agree.
    However, if the argument is, we should investigate X crime. Then the standard is a bit higher with at least a reasonable suspicion, and evidence. (which sig and I have both and I think we all agree would warrant an investigation).

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Are you similarly against what is going on in North Carolina?
    North Carolina, the words are an anathema to me. I hate North Carolina and all things that go on there, with the fire passions of a hundred thousands suns. ....
    I'm sorry. got lost there a bit.. what exactly is happening in North Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Makes sense that if you did want to try and "rig" it, you'd do it where the margins were the most close, no?
    How would they know where those margins are before hand in order to hack?
    Why not hack the areas that are clear winners? Surely no one is taking a double take at California where Hillary wins by 90%.
    Your reasoning seems unnecessary and unlikely.
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  10. #9
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If the argument is, we will have more secure elections if we have Voter ID laws. That is sufficient to enact the law if enough people agree.
    That doesn't assume the elections aren't secure to begin with?

    and that wasn't the argument made, I've heard it all the way up to illegals were being bused around from polling place to polling place.

    I'd suggest watching a James O'Keefe video.
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  11. #10
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    No it doesn't assume elections are rigged. It assumes that the vote is important and should be safe guarded, especially in the case of a simple matter of making sure you are who you say you are.
    I am for voter ID, I am not beholden to the arguments of others for it. They may have merit, I don't know. The way I see it around here you need ID to buy Alcohol, so all the bluster against showing an ID to vote, seems to be a case of selective reasoning. The concept of an ID is sound and common in our society, to not apply it to voting would be pretty arbitrary IMO.
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  13. #11
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No it doesn't assume elections are rigged. It assumes that the vote is important and should be safe guarded, especially in the case of a simple matter of making sure you are who you say you are.
    It is secure, that is why you register. You don't register to buy alcohol, you need an ID to prove your age.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    "As Susan Eraslan wrote after posting similar screenshots, “The numbers display that in 3 precincts in Outagamie County, all won by DT, more votes were counted for president than cast. Follow-up tweets found 1,500 more votes tallied than ballots cast"

    http://www.alternet.org/election-201...ampaign=buffer
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    It is secure, that is why you register. You don't register to buy alcohol, you need an ID to prove your age.
    Registering doesn't secure a vote any more than registering a gun dictates who is carrying it.
    You need an ID to prove you are who you say you are. A register does nothing to that effect.

    I may agree that it is secure, that doesn't mean we should not make it more secure.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    "As Susan Eraslan wrote after posting similar screenshots, “The numbers display that in 3 precincts in Outagamie County, all won by DT, more votes were counted for president than cast. Follow-up tweets found 1,500 more votes tallied than ballots cast"
    Your link sites 85% participation and calls it a reason to doubt the validity.
    I assume they got that # from the registered voters count. .. which means the vote there was secure enough. So 85% sounds right. (according to your point against any ID being necessary)
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Registering doesn't secure a vote any more than registering a gun dictates who is carrying it.
    You need an ID to prove you are who you say you are. A register does nothing to that effect.
    In nearly every state you have to ID yourself to register and then when you vote you are using your registration information so they can track that yes, this persone is on the list of those allowed to vote. It's a very rational way to do things. You give folks plenty of time to ID themselves and get the paperwork taken care of. Then the poll workers can check people off the list very quickly and efficeintly.

    Voter ID laws tend to be some kind of double check, where you have to then prove again who you are, and that you are indeed the person that registered to vote. The only real safeguard it adds is that you didn't swap someone else the person who registered. While that would be illegal, it wouldn't make for any kind of effective vote skewing effort. You would need thousands to millions of dopplegangers acting in a very organized way in concentrated places taking the place of legitimately registered voters.

    Mostly what happens is they end up being a hassle for people that don't have the form of ID they need on the date of the election.

    If you want to rationally work on ID programs, focus on registration rather than election day so people can have the time they need to sort out their identification needs and give people time to verify those in a reasonable manner. THat keeps election day nice and easy and quick which is exactly what you need on election day.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    In nearly every state you have to ID yourself to register and then when you vote you are using your registration information so they can track that yes, this persone is on the list of those allowed to vote. It's a very rational way to do things. You give folks plenty of time to ID themselves and get the paperwork taken care of. Then the poll workers can check people off the list very quickly and efficeintly.

    Voter ID laws tend to be some kind of double check, where you have to then prove again who you are, and that you are indeed the person that registered to vote. The only real safeguard it adds is that you didn't swap someone else the person who registered. While that would be illegal, it wouldn't make for any kind of effective vote skewing effort. You would need thousands to millions of dopplegangers acting in a very organized way in concentrated places taking the place of legitimately registered voters.
    I would say your correct that it is a kind of doubling issue. I am also not sure about the switching your speaking of. I would think the more illegals you have not qualified to vote the greater the problem could be. All they have to do is show up and claim to be a dead person Also, with close elections you don't need thousands of millions, that is an overstatement.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Mostly what happens is they end up being a hassle for people that don't have the form of ID they need on the date of the election.
    Yes, not being able to identify yourself is troublesome. Especially for buying a legal product.
    Point is, there really isn't an arguments against ID that doesn't apply to it's use anytime it is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    If you want to rationally work on ID programs, focus on registration rather than election day so people can have the time they need to sort out their identification needs and give people time to verify those in a reasonable manner. THat keeps election day nice and easy and quick which is exactly what you need on election day.
    I'm fine with that. I'm generally for whatever can make it more secure. I would even coincided that what you suggest is better. I don't think that means voter ID's are some how overly burdensome.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Oh, I'm sure I can imagine voter measures you would not be for... Say we make a DNA catalog of every eligible voter and then on voting day you must submit a blood test at the polling station and wait in a secluded area while the DNA match is done. It's sure to pretty much eliminate voter fraud at the polling place but I'm thinking you would not be in favor of the idea. It will be far more foolproof than a picture ID which can of course be faked. Much harder to fake the DNA coming out of your blood on the spot.

    But we would probably all say that's a stupid idea, at least given todays technology, and any kind of DNA government databases is for every voter is going to get some serious evil eyes from the libertarian crowd and should from anyone proclaiming they are agaisnt big government. Of course the biggest problems are simply that its unwieldy and vastly expensive and we arn't likely to really get that much value from it.

    ----

    Lets talk about this kind of voter fraud, what would it take to use illegal immigrants and dead registered voters to swing a presidential election.

    I think the closest state this year is around an 11K difference. So you would have needed to organize 11 thousand illegal immigrants and find 11 thousand dead registered voters and then get all those immigrants to the poling places where the people were registered all without anyone tipping off any of the authorities or getting caught. Do you honestly think that is a likely scenario we have to carefully guard agaisnt?

    On the other hand, I think it can be quite possible that on the day of an election some shumck looses his wallet and doesn't have his photo ID. That won't swing an election but it means he didsn't get to exercise the right to vote. If you just do that at the time or registration it's not a problem as he's got time to find it or get a new id.

    In a number of recent cases legislators were caught red handed tryig to redline new election laws specifically to manipulate outcomes rather than to even handedly ensure election accuracy. Often more worrysome than the ID laws were efforts to shut down polling places in areas where voters were unfavorable to the people shitting down those polling places. You know, **** one of the most sacred institutions of a democracy, we need to save some money here, and hey might as well skew the results while we are at it!

    I was just listening to a report about a monk in India who lives at a shrine, alone, deep in the woods and many miles from another living soul. In a country wiht Billions of citizens, every election they go set up a polling place just so this one guy can cast his vote. A team carries a voting machine out there, spends the night, sets up the voting station, gets his vote, then packs up and heads back. But here we are, richest nation in the world, cradle of modern democracy, and we have to shut down polling stations that serve thousands of people because it costs too much to staff them for one night of the year. We can't afford the one mechanism that ensures that our government reflects the will of the people. Madnes!!!
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Oh, I'm sure I can imagine voter measures you would not be for... Say we make a DNA catalog of every eligible voter and then on voting day you must submit a blood test at the polling station and wait in a secluded area while the DNA match is done. It's sure to pretty much eliminate voter fraud at the polling place but I'm thinking you would not be in favor of the idea. It will be far more foolproof than a picture ID which can of course be faked. Much harder to fake the DNA coming out of your blood on the spot.
    Maybe, but I would be for fingerprint, or retina scans being required... would probably be cheaper than DNA testing, as well as far more sanitary. (They could use your prints from birth certificate)

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Lets talk about this kind of voter fraud, what would it take to use illegal immigrants and dead registered voters to swing a presidential election.
    I think that bar is too high. If people want a certain kind of voting process, then they should have it unless it infringes on peoples rights to vote in an undue manner.
    Also, it's very subjective because conceivably Florida could be won with a single vote for one candidate over another. So, just one would work in the right circumstance, and in some local elections it has come down to a single vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I think the closest state this year is around an 11K difference. So you would have needed to organize 11 thousand illegal immigrants and find 11 thousand dead registered voters and then get all those immigrants to the poling places where the people were registered all without anyone tipping off any of the authorities or getting caught. Do you honestly think that is a likely scenario we have to carefully guard agaisnt?
    I think in the past, no.
    However now with ID theft being such a serious and rising problem.. yea, it could happen in the future, especially with any sort of concerted effort. Say, one on the level of the Dems trying to incite violence at trump rallies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    On the other hand, I think it can be quite possible that on the day of an election some shumck looses his wallet and doesn't have his photo ID. That won't swing an election but it means he didsn't get to exercise the right to vote. If you just do that at the time or registration it's not a problem as he's got time to find it or get a new id.
    What if his car breaks down and his phone is shut off and he doesn't live within reasonable walking distance? That guy is currently screwed.
    Or the people who move and can't get back to their state (I know someone like that). They are screwed as well.

    So, yea.. stuff happens and you could plausibly not be able to vote, but voting is done long enough so that anyone that wants to vote can.
    If your against voter ID ask how will you do mail in votes? (because I don't know, and that is important).

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    In a number of recent cases legislators were caught red handed tryig to redline new election laws specifically to manipulate outcomes rather than to even handedly ensure election accuracy. Often more worrysome than the ID laws were efforts to shut down polling places in areas where voters were unfavorable to the people shitting down those polling places. You know, **** one of the most sacred institutions of a democracy, we need to save some money here, and hey might as well skew the results while we are at it!
    Preaching to the choir here. Lets tackle jerrymandering as well
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    I'm a little shocked a fellow who dislikes big government and argues against giving them power is all for national biometric registry for the sake of making sure a handful of illegals don't manage to cast a vote. If that's the way you feel, its how you feel but it seems like madness to me. With that attitude I'm nover going to convince you the ID at the polling place is unessesary and pointlessly complicating.

    I still think you are mad for thinking anyone can register 11 thousand people in a state under dead voters names and not get caught. There are so many incentives and opporunities for someone to break trust in sch a conspiracy and expose it.

    Registration is a system that has worked very well for a very long time. It could benefit from more attention in some states, regualar efforts to make sure the deceased are removed in a timely fashion and the like, but overall its pretty effective. They do catch people trying to cheat the system every year, though it is almost always some individual who's gotten it in their head they can make a differnece that way.

    ID laws aren't something I'm super passionate about. It is as you say not entirely unreasonable, I just think it's kind of dumb compared to the long standing registration systems we've used for a good long time and work quite well for the most part.

    Jerymandering is tough to crack since there is a need to have constantly moving boundaries to try and section up states into districts. My take is the best thing is to come up with some computer algarythm and let the machine do its work. No doubt you get some odd outcomes but at least they won't be strictly rigged in any one groups interests.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I'm a little shocked a fellow who dislikes big government and argues against giving them power is all for national biometric registry for the sake of making sure a handful of illegals don't manage to cast a vote. If that's the way you feel, its how you feel but it seems like madness to me. With that attitude I'm nover going to convince you the ID at the polling place is unessesary and pointlessly complicating.
    Jeez overly complicated? You have an ID they compare it to who you say you are... done(In fact, I think I had to when I voted). Again, its so common you do it when you write a check, or buy alcohol, cops ask you for it even if your not driving.
    This is not some new and outlandish idea to apply to our society it happens every day in common buying and selling.

    As for bio-metric database, it already exists the gov just can't easily access it. Your fingerprints and foot prints are taken at birth and registered with the gov. Again if the gov is going to protect your identity, you have to identify yourself to the gov. If here is some other way which gives a smaller gov, or if there is some inherent danger for the gov being able to do it then I would like to hear it.
    But I'm not blindly afraid of the Gov boogeyman. Especially when I have already told them where I live and how much money I make etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I still think you are mad for thinking anyone can register 11 thousand people in a state under dead voters names and not get caught. There are so many incentives and opporunities for someone to break trust in sch a conspiracy and expose it.
    But the conspiracy to open bank accounts in the name of elderly people can occur by the millions 2.6 million

    https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5408

    Sure those people get caught sometimes... but they are motivated. you seem to be assuming that no one ever will think to apply identity theft to voting. Which seems naive. The parties are already willing to incite violence at rallies of their opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Registration is a system that has worked very well for a very long time. It could benefit from more attention in some states, regualar efforts to make sure the deceased are removed in a timely fashion and the like, but overall its pretty effective. They do catch people trying to cheat the system every year, though it is almost always some individual who's gotten it in their head they can make a differnece that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sig
    ID laws aren't something I'm super passionate about. It is as you say not entirely unreasonable, I just think it's kind of dumb compared to the long standing registration systems we've used for a good long time and work quite well for the most part.
    I would have agreed with you, if there were not massive ID theft going on. 20 years ago, you would have a great point, but going forward this could be a real issue with a simple noninvasive, non gov growing solution.
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    You're welcome to start a new thread to debate the merits of voter ID, for now I think this thread has gone off the rails.

    In an effort to get back on track I'd like to bring up Donald's unsubstantiated claim that 3 million "illegals" voted and the surprise that he is calling into question an election that he won.

    Also the fact that something like the 2 million vote lead in the popular vote hasn't happened in 140 years.

    and finally, the dismantling of the voting rights act and the voter suppression tactics that happened in these states - such as interstate cross-check - which had nothng to do with voter ID since if you had an ID under this purge you'd still be given a provisional ballot which wasn't counted.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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