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  1. #41
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried;
    He should have clarrified however that he means no loosing president has had won the popular vote by that many votes in 140 years.

    Cowboy, can you confirm that this is what you meant? It is definitely a very different meaning than the original text.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I have a single standard: The weight of consiquence with which you should ascribe to a statement is proportional to the reliablity and trustworthyness of the person or group making the statement.

    Trump is a serial liar, Obama is a trustworthy world leader. Doesn't mean one is always wrong and the other right, but in the inductive world of human beings, A lot more of what Obama says is going to be worth while than what Trump says.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Although I generally agree with that I still think we should call a spade a spade. I'm sure it will come up in my "hypocrisies" thread.

    ---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Cowboy, can you confirm that this is what you meant? It is definitely a very different meaning than the original text.
    I think if you read it in context it's clear, but yes, that's what I meant.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #43
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    I think if you read it in context it's clear, but yes, that's what I meant.
    Thank you for the clarification. Under that wording your last post would meet the requirements for support. Thank you.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #44
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Rigging the census to rig the election:

    That Bombshell Evidence in the Census Case? The Supreme Court Might Ignore It.
    Why the justices might not even consider new evidence that undercuts the administration’s rationale.



    Documents unearthed last week showed that the Republican Party’s top gerrymandering expert, Tom Hofeller, was behind [I]the decision to add a controversial question about US citizenship to the 2020 census, a move he wrote would be “advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites.”This undercut the Trump administration’s main argument—that the citizenship question was needed to better enforce the Voting Rights Act—in a legal case over the question that’s now before the Supreme Court.

    But the justices are unlikely to be swayed by the bombshell new evidence. In fact, they may not even be able to consider it.

    After the documents became public, the ACLU quickly filed a motion informing the Supreme Court of the new evidence. It also asked a lower court to sanction two former Trump administration officials for allegedly concealing Hofeller’s involvement in drafting a memo that became the basis for the citizenship question. There will be a hearing about that request in a federal district court in New York on Wednesday.

    Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross testifies about the census during a House Oversight Committee hearing, March 14, 2019. Jose Luis Magana/AP

    Documents unearthed last week showed that the Republican Party’s top gerrymandering expert, Tom Hofeller, was behind the decision to add a controversial question about US citizenship to the 2020 census, a move he wrote would be “advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites.” This undercut the Trump administration’s main argument—that the citizenship question was needed to better enforce the Voting Rights Act—in a legal case over the question that’s now before the Supreme Court.

    But the justices are unlikely to be swayed by the bombshell new evidence. In fact, they may not even be able to consider it.

    After the documents became public, the ACLU quickly filed a motion informing the Supreme Court of the new evidence. It also asked a lower court to sanction two former Trump administration officials for allegedly concealing Hofeller’s involvement in drafting a memo that became the basis for the citizenship question. There will be a hearing about that request in a federal district court in New York on Wednesday.

    “These documents show that the administration’s goal here is the exact opposite of what it said it was,” says Dale Ho, director of the ACLU’s voting rights project, which is challenging the citizenship question before the Supreme Court alongside 18 state governments. “They said they wanted to enforce minority voting rights, but the citizenship question originates with an effort to dilute minority voting rights. That’s directly relevant to the issue of pretext which is before the Supreme Court right now.” (The Justice Department said in a statement last Thursday that Hofeller’s study “played no role” in Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross’s decision to add the question to the 2020 census.)

    But legal experts say the news of Hofeller’s involvement is unlikely to sway the conservative majority on the Supreme Court before it issues its decision by the end of June. In questioning during oral arguments in April, the court’s five conservative justices appeared inclined to rule in favor of the administration. The Hofeller news may not even factor into the court’s decision.

    First, there’s little time for the court to consider the new evidence. The justices typically make up their minds following oral arguments, and they have already started writing their opinions. “The difficulty is that the Supreme Court voted on this case after oral arguments and has already started writing opinions and, while they sometimes change their minds, it’s not very common,” says Paul Smith, a veteran litigator with the Campaign Legal Center who’s argued numerous high-profile cases before the Supreme Court, including a case last year challenging partisan gerrymandering in Wisconsin.

    Second, the Supreme Court is only supposed to examine evidence that is part of the record in the case. For evidence to be entered into the record, a judge has to deem it admissible after thorough briefing and testimony from both sides. Though the justices sometimes do their own research or cite outside sources, deviation from the legal record is frowned upon. “Even though everyone considers evidence outside the record, there’s still a general principle that you aren’t supposed to do so,” says Leah Litman, a professor of constitutional law at the University of California-Irvine. Any consideration of Hofeller’s memos, which have not been vetted by a federal court nor subject to briefing by both sides, would be an exception to the rule, Litman says.

    For a case study in how last-minute evidence has failed to sway the justices, one need look no further than another major Supreme Court ruling on a signature Trump policy: the court’s 5-4 decision upholding the administration’s travel ban in June 2018.

    As with the citizenship question, administration officials repeatedly tried to hide the true intent of the travel ban, claiming it was not a Muslim ban when President Donald Trump had repeatedly said it was. The administration also mischaracterized how the policy would be implemented, with late-breaking evidence undercutting their claims.

    Solicitor General Noel Francisco, who also argued in favor of the citizenship question, told the Supreme Court during oral arguments in the travel ban case that individuals in countries subject to the ban would be issued waivers for things like urgent medical care and significant family ties. “State Department consular officers automatically apply the waiver process in the course of every visa application,” Francisco told Justice Sonia Sotomayor after she asked whether the waiver process was mere “window dressing.”

    But shortly after oral arguments, a State Department consular official in Madrid issued a sworn affidavit in a related federal court case undercutting Francisco’s claims, saying that consular officials didn’t have the power to grant waivers. “My understanding was no one is to be eligible to apply,” wrote Christopher Richardson, who served as American Citizen Services Chief in Madrid. “We were not allowed to exercise that discretion.”
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #45
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Democrats sabotage every effort to secure the border in order to keep increasing the number of illegal residents, and have a long history of supporting non-European legal immigration for the same reason - to enlarge your base of minority voters. Then you scream and holler when Republicans try to mitigate the results of your own nefarious efforts. Yawn. Why should anyone care that you're upset about a census question?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #46
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Democrats sabotage every effort to secure the border in order to keep increasing the number of illegal residents, and have a long history of supporting non-European legal immigration for the same reason - to enlarge your base of minority voters. Then you scream and holler when Republicans try to mitigate the results of your own nefarious efforts. Yawn. Why should anyone care that you're upset about a census question?
    Assuming that is true, what does that have to do with the constitutionally mandated census.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #47
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Assuming that is true, what does that have to do with the constitutionally mandated census.
    More than the constitutionally mandated census has with the "rigged" 2016 presidential election, that's for sure.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #48
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    More than the constitutionally mandated census has with the "rigged" 2016 presidential election, that's for sure.
    Well, yes, the 2020 census won't have any effect on the 2016 election. Continued efforts at gerrymandering and voter suppression might, probably will.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #49
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, yes, the 2020 census won't have any effect on the 2016 election. Continued efforts at gerrymandering and voter suppression might, probably will.
    Those along with continued efforts at importing more base voters for the Democrats, by hook or by crook. Don't pretend that the R's are suddenly doing something that is totally unacceptable with the census question, when it is a relatively minor response to the abuses of our immigration system that your side has has been practicing for decades.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #50
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Those along with continued efforts at importing more base voters for the Democrats, by hook or by crook. Don't pretend that the R's are suddenly doing something that is totally unacceptable with the census question, when it is a relatively minor response to the abuses of our immigration system that your side has has been practicing for decades.
    I wouldn't call ignoring the constitution minor.

    Abusing how?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #51
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    How is a census question that asks about citizenship ignoring the Constitution?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #52
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    How is a census question that asks about citizenship ignoring the Constitution?
    Maybe you should try reading the appropriate clause.

    (*hint* it doesn't mention citizens)
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #53
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Maybe you should try reading the appropriate clause.

    (*hint* it doesn't mention citizens)
    So by your logic, the census question should be:

    1) How many people live in your household?

    And stop there? I'm perfectly fine with that!

    But, if you think it is okay to ask the many, many other questions on the census form (https://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d3239a.pdf) and not ask about citizenship, then explain why the citizenship question is unconstitutional while all of the others are not.

    So do you just want to count people, or do you want the census to do more than that?
    Last edited by evensaul; June 7th, 2019 at 11:59 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #54
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    But, if you think it is okay to ask the many, many other questions on the census form (https://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d3239a.pdf) and not ask about citizenship, then explain why the citizenship question is unconstitutional while all of the others are not.
    Indeed, if there wasn't more to it...buuuuut there's what was presented in post 44.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #55
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    So, you have NO SUPPORT for your bogus claim that the citizenship question being unconstituational. And you admit that there are many other questions on the census that aren't mandated by the Constitution.

    I've responded to post 44. It's politics. Not far different than what your side engages in all the time. TFB.
    Last edited by Squatch347; June 10th, 2019 at 05:58 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #56
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So, you have NO SUPPORT for your bogus claim that the citizenship question being unconstituational.
    Incorrect, I've presented primary documentary evidence - both in the Constitution and the stated intent of the purveyors of the citizenship question. I've properly supported my claim.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #57
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Let's keep the conversation civil please and focus on debating the subject, not the person.




    In an attempt to move the discussion along before this degenerates further, I'll note two things.

    1) This is an MCN thread, so the usual support rules do not apply.

    2) Cowboy, your last statement is incorrect. You've provided neither primary nor secondary source documentation related to the Constitutionality of the Census question. You certainly never provided direct evidence from the Constitution, and I'm not sure the opinion piece from Mother Jones counts as secondary evidence unless you are invoking an appeal to authority fallacy.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  18. #58
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Let's keep the conversation civil please and focus on debating the subject, not the person.




    In an attempt to move the discussion along before this degenerates further, I'll note two things.

    1) This is an MCN thread, so the usual support rules do not apply.

    2) Cowboy, your last statement is incorrect. You've provided neither primary nor secondary source documentation related to the Constitutionality of the Census question. You certainly never provided direct evidence from the Constitution, and I'm not sure the opinion piece from Mother Jones counts as secondary evidence unless you are invoking an appeal to authority fallacy.
    I agree. I correct myself to say I referred to primary documents.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #59
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I agree. I correct myself to say I referred to primary documents.
    Unless you are using a definition of that term (primary documents) that I'm unaware of, I'd have to push back on this. Where, specifically did you refer to a primary document?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  20. #60
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    Re: "Rigged" election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Unless you are using a definition of that term (primary documents) that I'm unaware of, I'd have to push back on this. Where, specifically did you refer to a primary document?
    The constitution is a primary document as would be the documents mentioned in the article I posted - "Documents unearthed last week showed that the Republican Party’s top gerrymandering expert, Tom Hofeller, was behind the decision to add a controversial question about US citizenship to the 2020 census, a move he wrote would be “advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites.”"

    A document penned by Mr. Hofeller would be a primary document. I'm not sure if they are available. If you think they are necessary I can look.

    Anyone can look up the relevant clause of the constitution, but if you'd like I can post that too.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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