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  1. #41
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Wait a minute. Who's claiming that the primaries were rigged? Certainly not me or Sigfried. Are you simply being obtuse?
    Beyond "corruption" I don't know what you're claiming since you refused to explain.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #42
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Beyond "corruption" I don't know what you're claiming since you refused to explain.
    Well, I'm not claiming anything "beyond corruption", so there's no reason to explain anything "beyond corruption". I'm glad to see you appear to understand everything up to that point, though.

  3. #43
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, I'm not claiming anything "beyond corruption", so there's no reason to explain anything "beyond corruption". I'm glad to see you appear to understand everything up to that point, though.
    So, would that include collusion with space aliens to enslave us and use our brains for incubating their spider children?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #44
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So, would that include collusion with space aliens to enslave us and use our brains for incubating their spider children?
    No, it would include what I talked about here, here, here, and especially here (I know I said I didn't feel obliged to spell things out for you, but I did support my claims when I posted the article).

    Just let me know where I lost you, so we can get this thing back on track. I'd hate to think that the discussion has devolved to mere trolling (which is against the rules, just FYI).

  5. #45
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    On the whole, Bernie wasn't treated unfairly at all by the DNC. Hillary was the favorite to become the Democratic nominee, actually the heavy favorite, and she deserved to be. I think as the primary wore on and it became increasingly unlikely that Bernie could win, some frustration among some members of the DNC were vented through emails to colleagues and the like. Out of thousands upon thousands of hacked emails, to find only a handful that gave voice to this frustration was remarkable. Where are all the emails from Dec '15 and Jan, Feb '16 that give evidence of the DNC's collusion against Bernie? Why was the single most anti-Bernie email apparently not written until late April at a time when the primary was in essence already over?

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  7. #46
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    On the whole, Bernie wasn't treated unfairly at all by the DNC. Hillary was the favorite to become the Democratic nominee, actually the heavy favorite, and she deserved to be. I think as the primary wore on and it became increasingly unlikely that Bernie could win, some frustration among some members of the DNC were vented through emails to colleagues and the like. Out of thousands upon thousands of hacked emails, to find only a handful that gave voice to this frustration was remarkable. Where are all the emails from Dec '15 and Jan, Feb '16 that give evidence of the DNC's collusion against Bernie? Why was the single most anti-Bernie email apparently not written until late April at a time when the primary was in essence already over?
    Thanks for jumping in. Funny, when I don't support something - or in this case actually refuse to support something - I get a lot of red lettered responses.

    But this discussion has gone beyond just not supporting to not even explaining and leaving it to just a blanket "corruption" charge, which could mean anything.

    I haven't seen any of the emails as they haven't been submitted as support but from what I'm gathering the "corruption" accusation stems from some sort of favoritism given to Hillary over Bernie. Like I have explained that is a dubious claim at best as Bernie was 1) allowed to run as a democrat 2) he chose not to get involved directly with the DNC and to fundraise on his own 3) his policies were incorporated into the official platform and 4) (mere speculation but probably true) he would have reaped a reward if Hillary had won.

    Favoritism is a possible form of corruption. Not so in this case since the overriding good of the party was the motive and Bernie lost nothing - he had already lost the primary.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #47
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Thanks for jumping in. Funny, when I don't support something - or in this case actually refuse to support something - I get a lot of red lettered responses.
    Can you please point out where a refusal to support a claim was issued? As I noted, Dio put forward the comment that he wasn't obligated to walk you through his support pedantically. That is correct. He did, however, offer support. Given the standard definition of corruption, his support matches those requirements. I understand that you don't agree with his support, which is fine, but not being convinced is not the same thing as a claim not being supported.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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  10. #48
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Well, from your own evidence they didn't rig the primaries. So let's say they weren't as "nice" to Bernie when it comes to his continuing primary run (because they believed it was hurting the party's chance). That would be balanced by his inclusion in the forming of the platform and his probable place in the administration (or if the democrats won the senate his choice of committee seats). That's a respectful recognition of the power and influence of someone who was losing the primary and about as fair as fair goes in politics.[/QUOTE]


    While I am neither a democrat nor republican you talk like the DNC is supposed to chose the candidate. I had this naďve idea that the average democrat was supposed to vote their choice and the candidate chosen by popular vote. The contention here is the "average democrat" wasn't given that opportunity by the fact that the DNC clearly "favored" Hillary in the primaries. But you seem to be saying because the DNC leadership saw Bernie as a problem it's ok and even good that leadership knows better than the average democrat and helped Hillary win the nomination??

    I still find it telling that the big hub bub about Russia (assuming they were involved) and this election is mostly WikiLeaks and that info is apparently true. So, a foreign gov't tried to influence our election by telling the truth!!!!!

    The US gov't, I believe, has taken a less than truthful approach to the elections of other countries. Do we expect them not to care who is in the Whitehouse?

    (off topic, but I get that way.... Am I supposed to be automatically be worried that a Trump president will have better relations with Russia? Cautious, of course, but it's being portrayed as a bad thing necessarily in the media. China/N Korea is a bigger issue IMO)

  11. #49
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    The unspoken irony in all this is that Putin was pissed off and seeking revenge for the meddling that he attributed to Clinton and the U.S. during his election run. I'd say we (the American public) still has not actually seen the evidence that Russia tried to influence the election. I am not claiming it didn't happen, I just am not aware that evidence to support this has been shared. All we have is various politicians claiming that various intelligence agencies have briefed them accordingly. One point of possible contention is whether the agencies have specifically agreed that Putin was trying to help Trump, as opposed to, merely trying to send off a warning shot to Clinton.

    http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...ce-in-election
    Apparently, Obama is under pressure to release concrete evidence. In Obama's defense, he'd have to acknowledge some information which would render some programs useless in the future.

    On the flip side of the coin, Obama seemed content to ignore evidence of Russian meddling earlier in the year when it appeared doing so could have been harmful to Clinton.
    “They thought she was going to win, so they were willing to kick the can down the road,” a U.S. official with knowledge of the scope of the hacking told NBC."

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/16/re...#ixzz4Uk6ijOsV

    Obama and the Democrats would like to use this issue to weaken Trump's authority before he even gets into office. All he has to do is play along. Instead, he is playing down expectations. Once he takes office, he'll have some semi-harsh words for Putin and will agree to some sort of sanctions, but it will look big because Trump will make a big deal of it. And, he'll singularly show that he isn't indebted to Putin whatsoever. The Democrats will protest and whine, but Trump and the media will quickly lose interest and move on. Oh, and Trump will be quick to point out that Obama had this information for almost an entire year and did nothing about it. Trump is really a modern day Reagan in how he understands, seemingly intuitively, how to play the press/media and talk to the American people.

    In the end, we had Watergate, but instead of Nixon, we had some other group (probably Russia) and people were more interested in the information being leaked, than in the leak itself. It is fascinating because I think the American people are so cynical of politicians, that they reveled in watching the sausage making process and just how much blood was on everyone's hands. You had this politician, Clinton, who, by her own admission had two separate and different campaigns. One for the common folk and one for the wealthy donors. Then, you had all these email leaks where the DNC would say something publicly and then behind the scenes, say something 180 degrees different. It was this giant confirmation of everything most people suspected to begin with. And I don't think anyone read the emails and thought this was something isolated to Hillary or Democrats. It was just this general sense that politicians are just as slimy, thuggish, and corrupt as we all assumed they are. And here Hillary, the consummate politician was running against the anti-politician. I mean, Trump is like the Deadpool of politicians. He was vulgar, immoral, and seemingly would just blurt out whatever was on his mind. Yet, there was this sense that he's the hero we need to a great many people. Hillary, and her ilk, were the villains. By ilk, I mean politicians. It is why Trump beat out 14 or 18 other Republicans, many with long legislative careers. This was the year of Deadpool. He's going to clean out the swamp because, in some part, he is the swamp and yet, he is disconnected from it.

    So, there you have it. Trump is this weird combination of Deadpool and Ronald Reagan. God help us all. Or as Wade, himself might say if he were Trump
    "Politics the disease, meet the cure. Okay, not the cure, but more like a topical ointment to reduce the swelling and itch."
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  13. #50
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    On the flip side of the coin, Obama seemed content to ignore evidence of Russian meddling earlier in the year when it appeared doing so could have been harmful to Clinton.
    “They thought she was going to win, so they were willing to kick the can down the road,” a U.S. official with knowledge of the scope of the hacking
    What do you see as the problem with this? If the hacking attempt hadn't succeeded in getting what it wanted then taking care of it quietly would be the most prudent in either of your scenarios - not that they aren't mutually exclusive or could've both been the objective simultaneously.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #51
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What do you see as the problem with this? If the hacking attempt hadn't succeeded in getting what it wanted then taking care of it quietly would be the most prudent in either of your scenarios - not that they aren't mutually exclusive or could've both been the objective simultaneously.
    Well, let's flip the script. If I had noted that Obama handled the issue quietly in order to improve Trump's chances of winning, are you going to tell me that you would be ok with this? i understand your argument. However, now that the election has ended, why make noise about it now? Other than for political reasons (i.e. calling Trump's win into question) what is Obama's goal? Understand, Obama's decision was not necessarily based on his view that the email hack would have minimal impact on the election (which is probably still true), but it was based on his belief that Hillary would still win. If you are claiming his motivation was something else, than it is up to you to support that contention since nothing in the public record appears to support it. In other words, if he viewed it as unimportant in August, then there is no reason to view it as ultra-important now.

    If we look at this analytically,
    "Of course, one thing didn’t sink Clinton. The evidence suggests Wikileaks is among the factors that might have contributed to her loss, but we really can’t say much more than that."
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...llary-clinton/

    In other words, there is really no definitive correlation between the Wikileaks emails and Clinton's performance at the polls.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  16. #52
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, now that the election has ended, why make noise about it now? Other than for political reasons
    Because certainly nothing will be done about it by the Trump administration, they're doing their utmost to cast any type of doubt on whether it even happened.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #53
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Because certainly nothing will be done about it by the Trump administration, they're doing their utmost to cast any type of doubt on whether it even happened.
    So he would just be continuing the Obama Doctrine on this matter. Staying silent
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  18. #54
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So he would just be continuing the Obama Doctrine on this matter. Staying silent
    You can "stay silent" as you put it and still be doing something about it.

    The republican plan is certainly to do nothing:

    "John McCain and Lindsey Graham are backing off of their push for a select committee on cybersecurity after Russian interference in the election, bowing to the political reality that the Senate Republican Conference largely does not back their idea. […]"

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...d=sm_fb_maddow
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #55
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because certainly nothing will be done about it by the Trump administration, they're doing their utmost to cast any type of doubt on whether it even happened.
    1) You are making an assumption based on political posturing. If Obama is going to use the hacking incident politically, then we should expect a political response. No?
    2) You have avoided the fundamental claim. Obama didn't deem this important in August, so there is no reason to believe it is suddenly now very important.
    3) Your response ignores my claim that Obama's decision to respond now is political, not based on security. You have offered no rebuttal to this claim.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #56
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    2) You have avoided the fundamental claim. Obama didn't deem this important in August, so there is no reason to believe it is suddenly now very important.
    You'll have to support that it wasn't being taken seriously. Challenge to support a claim.

    There was no rebuttal because there was no support offered.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #57
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You'll have to support that it wasn't being taken seriously. Challenge to support a claim.

    There was no rebuttal because there was no support offered.
    I offered the following in a previous post:
    “They thought she was going to win, so they were willing to kick the can down the road,” a U.S. official with knowledge of the scope of the hacking told NBC."

    Challenge met. Try again.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  22. #58
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I offered the following in a previous post:
    “They thought she was going to win, so they were willing to kick the can down the road,” a U.S. official with knowledge of the scope of the hacking told NBC."

    Challenge met. Try again.
    Yet, (from your own source):

    "The administration did take action in response to the hack prior to the election. In September, President Obama privately confronted Vladimir Putin about the hacks at the G-20 summit in China. He warned the Russian President of unspecified consequences if the hacks continued.

    On Oct. 7, the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued an unprecedented joint statement pointing the finger at Russia, saying hacks of U.S. political groups and individual politicians could only have been done with the authorization of "Russia's senior most" officials and that its intent was to undermine the integrity of the election."

    and

    "The Obama administration didn't respond more forcefully to Russian hacking..." (emphasis mine)

    That doesn't support your contention that "Obama didn't deem this important in August"

    Please support or retract your statement.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  23. #59
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Please support or retract your statement.

    Just to clarify. Ibelsd did support his claim, see the quote above. You've offered counter evidence to that claim, but that doesn't really change that it was supported, just whether it is, in fact, correct.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  24. #60
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    Re: Let's Talk about Russia and the 2016 Election

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yet, (from your own source):

    "The administration did take action in response to the hack prior to the election. In September, President Obama privately confronted Vladimir Putin about the hacks at the G-20 summit in China. He warned the Russian President of unspecified consequences if the hacks continued.

    On Oct. 7, the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued an unprecedented joint statement pointing the finger at Russia, saying hacks of U.S. political groups and individual politicians could only have been done with the authorization of "Russia's senior most" officials and that its intent was to undermine the integrity of the election."

    and

    "The Obama administration didn't respond more forcefully to Russian hacking..." (emphasis mine)

    That doesn't support your contention that "Obama didn't deem this important in August"

    Please support or retract your statement.
    As Squatch noted, I did support my statement. Kicking the can down the road is a pretty good indicator that someone isn't taking something very seriously. Between Aug and Nov 8, Obama believed this issue was so important that the only direct action he took was a private conversation with Putin. Nothing you have offered rebuts my argument.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
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