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  1. #21
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    My ONLY point is to a liberal,

    Bill and Hillary, have NEVER done wrong, nor can they do wrong!

    your previous comments are support.
    You're deflecting. Let's try this: what do you believe Reagan did wrong? and I'll see if I agree with you.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're deflecting. Let's try this: what do you believe Reagan did wrong? and I'll see if I agree with you.
    Once again, you lend support as to why the electoral college is still quite relevant as opposed to the popular vote deciding fate....









    (Is your name Garry?)

  3. #23
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, of course, liberals believe that we are all flawed beings so its easy to forgive when the asking is sincere. I'm still not sure what Hillary would need to apologize for.
    I think most Christians believe we’re flawed being. Being flawed is not my point – it’s a given. Being flawed, “doing wrong’ doesn’t necessarily change how someone can naturally connect and inspire others or how they can’t.
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  5. #24
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not only have you and you're entire side not called him on it, you've given him a complete pass.

    Just a quick clarifying question. Do you actually believe that the entire Republican field gave Mr. Trump a pass on this issue or is this more a hyperbole to affect a point?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #25
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think most Christians believe we’re flawed being. Being flawed is not my point – it’s a given. Being flawed, “doing wrong’ doesn’t necessarily change how someone can naturally connect and inspire others or how they can’t.
    Most Christians probably do feel that they were born flawed (though I do not agree with that at all), but I didn't ask anything like "can someone connect or inspire or be forgiven if they are sincere". All totally irrelevant to my point.

    Clinton supporters just don't believe they can do wrong or are even capable of it. You and Cowboy dance around this simple question. I was just trying to figure out the thought processes that enables blind support. It appears to me, to be a lot the way people cling to "their own" religion. (I quote "their own" because from the studies I have read to the people I have known, agnostics/atheists'( seem to know more about Christianity than the majority of it's practitioners.)

    So the Clinton "religion"............hmmm.

    ---------- Post added at 07:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Just a quick clarifying question. Do you actually believe that the entire Republican field gave Mr. Trump a pass on this issue or is this more a hyperbole to affect a point?
    Squatch, I believe in another thread Cowboy said he has your comments blocked. However, reading back over the conversation, it seems pretty clear, to me at least, Cowboy's intent. It was purely to further "one's own opinion" minus any facts. Like Cowboy keeps stating that I am on Trump's side or supported his candidacy, which I have clearly stated is NOT the case
    (until after he was president, as I try to support the US, as I have done with all past presidents, even if I didn't vote for them)

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  8. #26
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    My ONLY point is to a liberal,

    Bill and Hillary, have NEVER done wrong, nor can they do wrong!
    Which is a completely ridiculous and unsupported statement.

    I've heard PLENTY of liberal criticism of Hillary, especially during the primary when she was running against Bernie Sanders.

    There might certain people who feel that she can do no wrong, but it certainly is not the general beliefs of liberals.

  9. #27
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is a completely ridiculous and unsupported statement.

    I've heard PLENTY of liberal criticism of Hillary, especially during the primary when she was running against Bernie Sanders.

    There might certain people who feel that she can do no wrong, but it certainly is not the general beliefs of liberals.


    you are correct, I didn't mean it to be such an all encompassing, blanket statement. my apologies to whatever percentage of liberal Clinton supporters that do acknowledge they are human and prone to human (indulgence/indiscretion/wrong doing/whatever verb you like).

    However, most of what I see/read/talk to in person, is still a lot like Cowboy or eye's responses, and even your comment of "plenty of liberal criticism of Hillary", really doesn't go very far.

    Now sure, a criticism could be, "the shutting down of Clinton's charity right after she no longer has access to gov't, could give the appearance of influence peddling" or it could just be Cowboy saying the only "wrong doing" Hillary has done was adding "Clinton" to her name when she got married (an unwarranted comment since it's clear their marriage was about gaining power, at least in part)

  10. #28
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Clinton supporters just don't believe they can do wrong or are even capable of it.
    I would disagree. What I’ve observed in listening carefully to zealous Clinton and many (not all, but many) liberal supporters is that doing wrong is simply not as relevant to them as the cause they embrace. Their perspective and belief in their cause seems to be supreme – right/ wrong -- that line in the sand can be moved if it gets in the way of the cause. It's not that they believe they can do no wrong, it's more of "If I have do to some evil (rewire my moral compass or just simply ignore it for this circumstance) so that good may come, so be it. And, of course, I am the arbitrator of what is good." Some call that situation ethics and there are lots of problems with that mindset, but that's a different argument.

    So the Clinton "religion"............hmmm.
    Clinton was/is just the current place holder. Situation ethics is not a religion. I would call it more of a mindset a philosophy of sorts.
    Last edited by eye4magic; January 24th, 2017 at 11:26 AM.
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  12. #29
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Once again, you lend support as to why the electoral college is still quite relevant as opposed to the popular vote deciding fate....

    (Is your name Garry?)

    I don't get it...any of it.

    ---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I would disagree. What I’ve observed in listening carefully to zealous Clinton and many (not all, but many) liberal supporters is that doing wrong is simply not as relevant to them as the cause they embrace. Their perspective and belief in their cause seems to be supreme – right/ wrong -- that line in the sand can be moved if it gets in the way of the cause. It's not that they believe they can do no wrong, it's more of "If I have do to some evil (rewire my moral compass or just simply ignore it for this circumstance) so that good may come, so be it. And, of course, I am the arbitrator of what is good." Some call that situation ethics and there are lots of problems with that mindset, but that's a different argument.

    There's more to it than that. Conservatives espouse a moral certitude...not that they abide by it which, again, is why it's so hysterical when they're caught. For example, a lie is a lie and there wouldn't be an instance where perjury is not wrong.

    (Unless it's your party's president and he refuses to testify and so does his vice-president but I digress)

    Also, not that I'm saying that perjury is not wrong, but there are mitigating circumstances where it becomes understandable and relatable. For example, harming oneself in a effort to protect one's family. In some cases it might actually seem noble.

    ---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    it could just be Cowboy saying the only "wrong doing" Hillary has done was adding "Clinton" to her name when she got married (an unwarranted comment since it's clear their marriage was about gaining power, at least in part)
    I think you misunderstand. Hillary was a modern, educated woman in the sixties and seventies and only changed her name for political purposes to help her husband in Arkansas. What I meant when I said I think that was wrong was that it was wrong for her to bend here scruples over such backward, hillbilly nonsense.
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  13. #30
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I would disagree. What I’ve observed in listening carefully to zealous Clinton and many (not all, but many) liberal supporters is that doing wrong is simply not as relevant to them as the cause they embrace. Their perspective and belief in their cause seems to be supreme – right/ wrong -- that line in the sand can be moved if it gets in the way of the cause. It's not that they believe they can do no wrong, it's more of "If I have do to some evil (rewire my moral compass or just simply ignore it for this circumstance) so that good may come, so be it. And, of course, I am the arbitrator of what is good." Some call that situation ethics and there are lots of problems with that mindset, but that's a different argument.


    Clinton was/is just the current place holder. Situation ethics is not a religion. I would call it more of a mindset a philosophy of sorts.
    In the book 1984 I believe they called that thought process "double think"...
    Ok, most of what you propose seems plausible, perhaps even likely, though no less scary than my hypothesis. I don't think however, you give near enough credit to the "devotion" of the Clinton's "follower's". Maybe religion is too strong a term, but they have countless "devoted" follower's often using faith in defense of the Clinton's "character/reputation". The structure and substance of the arguments remind me a lot of religious arguments.

  14. #31
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In the book 1984 I believe they called that thought process "double think"...
    Ok, most of what you propose seems plausible, perhaps even likely, though no less scary than my hypothesis. I don't think however, you give near enough credit to the "devotion" of the Clinton's "follower's". Maybe religion is too strong a term, but they have countless "devoted" follower's often using faith in defense of the Clinton's "character/reputation". The structure and substance of the arguments remind me a lot of religious arguments.
    But is it any different than the kind of devotion that any world leader might receive from some of the country's citizenry? Is it any different for Trump or Obama?

    If not, then the issue really isn't the Clintons and their followers but just how some people react towards their leaders.

  15. #32
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't get it...any of it.

    ---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------




    Sorry, you just sound sooo much like one of my relatives (no offense intended I had to ask



    There's more to it than that. Conservatives espouse a moral certitude...not that they abide by it which, again, is why it's so hysterical when they're caught. For example, a lie is a lie and there wouldn't be an instance where perjury is not wrong.

    (Unless it's your party's president and he refuses to testify and so does his vice-president but I digress)

    Also, not that I'm saying that perjury is not wrong, but there are mitigating circumstances where it becomes understandable and relatable. For example, harming oneself in a effort to protect one's family. In some cases it might actually seem noble.


    COLOR="#00FFFF"]What does this have to do with Liberals admitting Hillary "can do wrong"?
    (deflecting much?)
    I have not defended any conservative that is "caught". You keep lumping me in a group you find questionable, yet you don't really know if I'm part of that "group".


    [/COLOR][/COLOR]---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    I think you misunderstand. Hillary was a modern, educated woman in the sixties and seventies and only changed her name for political purposes to help her husband in Arkansas. What I meant when I said I think that was wrong was that it was wrong for her to bend here scruples over such backward, hillbilly nonsense.
    Has Hillary stated publicly she didn't want Clinton attached to her name and only did it because that is what people expect (to further in politics)? I hadn't heard that before.

    My grandmother had two children in the late 40's-early 50's. My grandfather died when my dad was quite young. Grandma went to college, got a degree and went to work as head of the household (never remarried). She was very proud to use her husbands name (no hyphen). My girlfriend has also stated if we got married she would take my name (only). It's an old tradition (though it can cause some financial issues after a breakup), but some people will always enjoy "the old ways". I'm just saying not every women feels it is a bad thing to change their name when they get married (of course, some certainly do feel this way, which is also fine

    ---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But is it any different than the kind of devotion that any world leader might receive from some of the country's citizenry? Is it any different for Trump or Obama?

    If not, then the issue really isn't the Clintons and their followers but just how some people react towards their leaders.

    I'm fairly confident that if Trump were to say (for example): "donating $500,000 or more to (RNC/my campaign fund/whatever) and you can spend a night in the Lincoln bedroom at the Whitehouse"
    would result in massive backlash, and even his supporters would say it was "wrong" (even if they still supported him till death). So, yes, it's different for Trump than Bill (although Obama is a different conversation). Pretty much here (as in my daily life) the Clinton's just don't "do wrong" (as in, almost incapable of such a thing). Other countries and world leaders have their own dynamics and I am not commenting on them (at the moment).
    Last edited by Squatch347; January 25th, 2017 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Tag Fix

  16. #33
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I'm fairly confident that if Trump were to say (for example): "donating $500,000 or more to (RNC/my campaign fund/whatever) and you can spend a night in the Lincoln bedroom at the Whitehouse"
    would result in massive backlash, and even his supporters would say it was "wrong" (even if they still supported him till death). So, yes, it's different for Trump than Bill (although Obama is a different conversation).
    I see no reason to agree with this assessment. Trump supporters are not too concerned that Trump is not putting his assets in a blind trust and therefore in in a position that make decisions as President that will clearly enrich him.

    So no, you have not shown that it is different for Trump supporters than Clinton supporters. In fact, I think Trump supporters are more forgiving of "their guy" than Clinton supporters are.

  17. #34
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I see no reason to agree with this assessment. Trump supporters are not too concerned that Trump is not putting his assets in a blind trust and therefore in in a position that make decisions as President that will clearly enrich him.

    So no, you have not shown that it is different for Trump supporters than Clinton supporters. In fact, I think Trump supporters are more forgiving of "their guy" than Clinton supporters are.

    Well with Trump, we shall get to see who is right (since there is NO complaint of personal enrichment yet - your example has not happened - the Bill/Lincoln bedroom did happen).

    Can you give examples of Trump supporters (for some reason I feel the need to again state - I did NOT vote for Trump!) are more "forgiving"

  18. #35
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well with Trump, we shall get to see who is right (since there is NO complaint of personal enrichment yet - your example has not happened - the Bill/Lincoln bedroom did happen).
    My example is taking the office without putting his money in a blind trust. He HAS done that. It happened and is clearly not right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Can you give examples of Trump supporters (for some reason I feel the need to again state - I did NOT vote for Trump!) are more "forgiving"
    You don't need to state that you did not vote for Trump. I did not refer to you. As far as other things that he has been forgiven for:

    1. What he said on tape regarding kissing women without their consent and grabbing them by the p*ssy.
    2. Verbally attacking a gold star family
    3. Admitting to walking in on naked pageant contestants to enjoy looking at undressed women
    4. Running the Trump University Scam
    5. Racial discrimination in renting his properties.
    6. Using money from his charitable foundation for personal expenses.
    7. Not paying taxes for several years.
    8. Stiffing contractors out of money

    There is a WHOLE LOT of forgiving going on for a person who forgives all of this.

    Now, if this happened with Clinton would his/her supporters forgive it all as well? You don't know and therefore you don't know if Clinton supporters are more forgiving than Trump supporters and therefore have no basis to claim that it is so.

  19. #36
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Has Hillary stated publicly she didn't want Clinton attached to her name and only did it because that is what people expect (to further in politics)? I hadn't heard that before.
    Yes. Her name wasn't changed until well into her husband's career - I believe his second or third run for governor.
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  20. #37
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    My example is taking the office without putting his money in a blind trust. He HAS done that. It happened and is clearly not right.



    You don't need to state that you did not vote for Trump. I did not refer to you. As far as other things that he has been forgiven for:

    1. What he said on tape regarding kissing women without their consent and grabbing them by the p*ssy.
    2. Verbally attacking a gold star family
    3. Admitting to walking in on naked pageant contestants to enjoy looking at undressed women
    4. Running the Trump University Scam
    5. Racial discrimination in renting his properties.
    6. Using money from his charitable foundation for personal expenses.
    7. Not paying taxes for several years.
    8. Stiffing contractors out of money

    There is a WHOLE LOT of forgiving going on for a person who forgives all of this.

    Now, if this happened with Clinton would his/her supporters forgive it all as well? You don't know and therefore you don't know if Clinton supporters are more forgiving than Trump supporters and therefore have no basis to claim that it is so.

    Trump should utilize a blind trust (though he obviously knows what he currently owns, so he could still easily still use the gov't for personal enrichment, though he is already a billionaire, the Clintons only did that after getting elected). Still, he hasn't been accused of using the gov't to enrich himself......... yet,... so this does not really apply does it?

    As for your little list, I don't see the people lining up to say none of that happened!!!!!
    If it were Bill/Hillary
    "it didn't happen at all" or if it did "character doesn't matter"!!!
    That was always one of my favorites when a Clinton supporter finally couldn't go on with the fight intellectually, it came down to
    "well, when your president, character doesn't matter"

    You are supporting people that are slime, admitted by themselves and many of their supporters.....

  21. #38
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Trump should utilize a blind trust (though he obviously knows what he currently owns, so he could still easily still use the gov't for personal enrichment, though he is already a billionaire, the Clintons only did that after getting elected). Still, he hasn't been accused of using the gov't to enrich himself......... yet,... so this does not really apply does it?
    It DOES apply. As you said, he should utilize a blind trust and yet he hasn't. That's wrong. Just because he has yet to do something even worse does not make the wrong thing right. He is doing something wrong and his supporters don't hold him accountable and therefore it applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    As for your little list, I don't see the people lining up to say none of that happened!!!!!
    Right. They think that most of those things and the list did happen and forgive him for it so they are very, very forgiving.

    So you have not shown that Clinton supporters are more forgiving than Trump supporters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You are supporting people that are slime, admitted by themselves and many of their supporters.....
    I wouldn't put it that way but I have supported that the notion that Clinton are more forgiving than Trump supporters has not been shown to be true.

    So again, you should be addressing the issue of how people react to their leaders instead of holding that Clinton supporters are uniquely more forgiving than others. I have shown that that is not necessarily the case.
    Last edited by mican333; January 24th, 2017 at 06:19 PM.

  22. #39
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It DOES apply. As you said, he should utilize a blind trust and yet he hasn't. That's wrong. Just because he has yet to do something even worse does not make the wrong thing right. He is doing something wrong and his supporters don't hold him accountable and therefore it applies.



    Right. They think that most of those things and the list did happen and forgive him for it so they are very, very forgiving.

    So you have not shown that Clinton supporters are more forgiving than Trump supporters.




    I wouldn't put it that way but I have supported that the notion that Clinton are more forgiving than Trump supporters has not been shown to be true.

    So again, you should be addressing the issue of how people react to their leaders instead of holding that Clinton supporters are uniquely more forgiving than others. I have shown that that is not necessarily the case.

    The three of you (Cowboy, Eye, and you) make my point! I suggest that liberal Clinton supporters' can't/won't admit the Clinton's can do "wrong". By all of your testimonies, all you can say is "Trump is as bad or worse"!! I am not supporting Trump's actions!

    IOW, none of you will defend the point I made, and can only hold Trump is not worthy EITHER! WOW, that is big news to me! The poster child for narcissism (save Tom Cruise) is ALSO not fit to serve! Shocking. So we have now decided NEITHER should be president. This was a very sad election. Sadder that people still try to defend it. I worry that any thinking person would vote for either of those two.

    My point is confirmed and unless you have a relevant point that I need to respond to, the last word is yours.

  23. #40
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    Re: Democrat == Crybaby

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In the book 1984 I believe they called that thought process "double think"...
    Ok, most of what you propose seems plausible, perhaps even likely, though no less scary than my hypothesis. I don't think however, you give near enough credit to the "devotion" of the Clinton's "follower's". Maybe religion is too strong a term, but they have countless "devoted" follower's often using faith in defense of the Clinton's "character/reputation". The structure and substance of the arguments remind me a lot of religious arguments.
    Faith? What kind of faith?

    By all of your testimonies, all you can say is "Trump is as bad or worse"!
    I don’t have a problem with Trump’s leadership and him being elected to hold the Office of the President of the United States. Nor do I think he is worse -- what ever that may mean.

    none of you will defend the point I made, and can only hold Trump is not worthy EITHER! WOW,
    Whether President Trump is truly worthy to hold the office he now holds is probably beyond our limited scope. However, what I think is more relevant is that he won the electoral college vote by a solid majority and that’s what matters. Middle America, the working class elected this man because he was able to connect with them through his many campaign stumps. As far as his bombastic, narcissism, non-conventional and politically incorrect ways, that did not seem to override or trump his ability to genuinely connect with his supporters.

    With that being said, I think timing played a very important role in the result of this election. If middle America and the average blue collar worker, including many liberals, were thriving and doing well financially, I think we might have seen a different outcome.
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