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  1. #281
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    [1] I believe it was in the current "bible and slavery" thread. Rabbidak mentioned that the Devil isn't evil at all. He is doing God's work according to God's plan (I will say, it makes the book of Job make much more sense
    I tried to engage him on the point but didn't get a response.

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 PM ----------



    [2] I am 55, though living life at 31!!!
    I will use Peter from now on.

    ---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 PM ----------




    [3] please allow me to respond to this point later as I don't have enough time to adequately address it tonight.

    ---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------



    [4] It's reasonable enough. Now, how about true?

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------



    [5] Great question. I am not sure. That is why I am still searching I guess.......
    [1] That is interesting. Never heard that one before. I'll have to see the context.

    [2] Are you 31 years in actual time and feel like 55?
    For me it is 61 years in actual time, but I feel young at heart and health wise, except for occasional memory problems (Sometimer's, or part-timers instead of Alzheimer's). I'm hoping it does not lead to the latter.

    [3] You might like to take the argument over to the thread I set up with RabbiDak then!

    [4] That is very debatable. How does reason derive from the unreasoning? Scientists and atheists assume it can.

    Why would something, the universe, without meaning, purpose, reason, logic, intention, or mind, lead to reason? There is no reason that it would.

    [5] That is another reason for the case for God. Unless He exists and has revealed Himself, how do you get to certainty? Which relative, subjective opinion are you going to take as that certainty?

    Peter

  2. #282
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    [1] That is interesting. Never heard that one before. I'll have to see the context.

    [2] Are you 31 years in actual time and feel like 55?
    For me it is 61 years in actual time, but I feel young at heart and health wise, except for occasional memory problems (Sometimer's, or part-timers instead of Alzheimer's). I'm hoping it does not lead to the latter.

    [3] You might like to take the argument over to the thread I set up with RabbiDak then!

    [4] That is very debatable. How does reason derive from the unreasoning? Scientists and atheists assume it can.

    Why would something, the universe, without meaning, purpose, reason, logic, intention, or mind, lead to reason? There is no reason that it would.

    [5] That is another reason for the case for God. Unless He exists and has revealed Himself, how do you get to certainty? Which relative, subjective opinion are you going to take as that certainty?

    Peter
    1. I believe he said something like "in Judaism the devil isn't a fallen angel at all, but is helping to proceed with God's plan". Maybe ODN needs a Judaism debate kinda like all the Christian debates that go on.

    2. I just turned 55 and feel like 31, though my son says HE is older than that, I figure as long as one of us is good with it, why not

    3. That thread is way above my time commitment level. I think you both are showing a lot of careful study and the responses are very "professional" in a manner I may aspire to, but do not currently possess. Also, at the moment I am much more interested in the argument God exists at all more than extreme details about his existence.

    4. Interesting question, but you have given no support why this universe would not allow reason to exist. Put another way, reason comes from life. I don't believe the universe is "alive" in the sense humans think about what it is to be "alive" (is a virus alive?). What about the universe would prevent reason from existing?

    5. Well, you can be "certain about God", but if he doesn't exist, you were "certain" about something that just wasn't true...

  3. #283
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1. I believe he said something like "in Judaism the devil isn't a fallen angel at all, but is helping to proceed with God's plan". Maybe ODN needs a Judaism debate kinda like all the Christian debates that go on.
    http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the...-satan/?p=2566
    https://outreachjudaism.org/who-is-satan/

    I checked it out (above). I disagree with Judaism's take of Satan even though I respect and agree with the fact that he was an adversary and was called the god of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    3. That thread is way above my time commitment level. I think you both are showing a lot of careful study and the responses are very "professional" in a manner I may aspire to, but do not currently possess. Also, at the moment I am much more interested in the argument God exists at all more than extreme details about his existence.
    Contained in the argument is the very evidence/proof that God exists. History verifies His Word.

    Which human being can predict with complete accuracy hundreds, thousands, of events to take place in the future? This is the claim the Christian makes about prophecy - that God has foretold the future. When someone looks into these claims they have to decide whether, 1) the historical evidence available from early sources supports their claim, 2) the logic behind both conflicting sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    4. Interesting question, but you have given no support why this universe would not allow reason to exist. Put another way, reason comes from life. I don't believe the universe is "alive" in the sense humans think about what it is to be "alive" (is a virus alive?). What about the universe would prevent reason from existing?
    I have a reasonable and 'necessary' (meaning one that shows intent, whereas an unreasoning, mindless, impersonal universe has no intentionality behind it) argument as to why the universe is, an argument that CAN make sense of the universe, one that would be NECESSARY to make sense of the universe.

    The very fact that humanity continually discusses meaning and searches for reason is baffling in an indifferent universe. Who cares? Why do you care? If the universe is meaningless why do people try to find meaning in it?

    Why? Simply, the universe screams of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    5. Well, you can be "certain about God", but if he doesn't exist, you were "certain" about something that just wasn't true...
    Without Him there is no ultimate meaning to why the universe is. If there is no ultimate meaning your life is ultimately futile/meaningless. Your life is built on meanings you place into that universe that ultimately means nothing - n-o-t-h-i-n-g. It just doesn't matter. Why do people everywhere make it matter and want it to matter?

    Second, in the subject of metaphysics, how do you arrive at truth without God? Without God how do you arrive at truth in regards to morality? Without God, how do you arrive at truth in regards to origins of life and the universe? It is anyone's guess and anyone's relative, subjective opinion.

    These are the kinds of issues wars are fought over - opinions on right and wrong.

    Peter

  4. #284
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I have a reasonable and 'necessary' (meaning one that shows intent, whereas an unreasoning, mindless, impersonal universe has no intentionality behind it) argument as to why the universe is, an argument that CAN make sense of the universe, one that would be NECESSARY to make sense of the universe.
    I totally get what you are saying "can make sense" of the universe (in a fashion), but don't see why it is the only possibility. Nor have you supported "why the universe needs to make sense to humans". Entangled Particles "don't make sense" to humans, but that doesn't mean they can't/don't exist.


    If the Christian God did exist, I don't believe we would be able to argue the point, given he wants "all to be saved". Faith could be reasonable in some instances, but whether God exists or not, would not require faith. You can't make a "free will" choice in a matter where you are not allowed to know for SURE, what you are choosing. Your faith could be misplaced as my understanding is, the Devil is allowed to "fool you". How would/could you know if the Devil were fooling you, as he is allowed supernatural power. The best lies contain enough truth to assure the one being lied to, that he/she has reason to strongly believe the lie is true.....

    ---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the...-satan/?p=2566
    https://outreachjudaism.org/who-is-satan/

    I checked it out (above). I disagree with Judaism's take of Satan even though I respect and agree with the fact that he was an adversary and was called the god of this world.
    And yet, Judaism offers the EXACT same type of support of their claim for truth as Christianity.

    Let's say God told me himself, that either Christianity or Judaism, but NOT both, was his true word and I had to figure out which was correct. How could I do this and know for sure I was choosing the correct one?
    Last edited by Belthazor; October 28th, 2017 at 05:35 PM.

  5. #285
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I have a reasonable and 'necessary' (meaning one that shows intent, whereas an unreasoning, mindless, impersonal universe has no intentionality behind it) argument as to why the universe is, an argument that CAN make sense of the universe, one that would be NECESSARY to make sense of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I totally get what you are saying "can make sense" of the universe (in a fashion), but don't see why it is the only possibility. Nor have you supported "why the universe needs to make sense to humans". Entangled Particles "don't make sense" to humans, but that doesn't mean they can't/don't exist.
    Can you list the possibilities and their proofs/evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If the Christian God did exist, I don't believe we would be able to argue the point, given he wants "all to be saved".
    Why can't we argue the point? The Bible that claims to be His word, His revelation to humanity, has evidence that is most reasonable to believe.

    If God wanted to save all, then all would be saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Faith could be reasonable in some instances, but whether God exists or not, would not require faith.
    It does because God is a Spirit and we can't see Spirit. It does because God has chosen how He will reveal Himself to humanity. It does because God has man human beings in His image and likeness. We can reason, and we can choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You can't make a "free will" choice in a matter where you are not allowed to know for SURE, what you are choosing. Your faith could be misplaced as my understanding is, the Devil is allowed to "fool you". How would/could you know if the Devil were fooling you, as he is allowed supernatural power. The best lies contain enough truth to assure the one being lied to, that he/she has reason to strongly believe the lie is true.....
    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the...-satan/?p=2566
    https://outreachjudaism.org/who-is-satan/

    I checked it out (above). I disagree with Judaism's take of Satan even though I respect and agree with the fact that he was an adversary and was called the god of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And yet, Judaism offers the EXACT same type of support of their claim for truth as Christianity.

    Let's say God told me himself, that either Christianity or Judaism, but NOT both, was his true word and I had to figure out which was correct. How could I do this and know for sure I was choosing the correct one?
    Christianity is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. There are many pieces of evidence I can offer based on the OT (the Tanakh and Torah).

    Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)
    The Fulfillment of the Law
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    The Law and the Prophets are the entire OT, the Torah, and the Tanakh. Jesus said not one iota would pass away until all was fulfilled. The fact is that the LAw has passed away according to His words for the reason that there is no more priesthood, no more temple, no more animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins required on the Day of Atonement.

    Everything required by the Law had to be accomplished before the Law would pass away. It is fulfillment of the promise of Daniel 9:24, which would bring in everlasting righteousness. It is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:7 in which the power of the holy people would be shattered. That power was their relationship with God.


    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------

    hould be:

    "It does because God is a Spirit and we can't see Spirit. It does because God has chosen how He will reveal Himself to humanity. It does because God has ma[de] human beings in His image and likeness. We can reason, and we can choose.

    Peter

  6. #286
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Why can't we argue the point? The Bible that claims to be His word, His revelation to humanity, has evidence that is most reasonable to believe.

    Because you CAN NOT make a choice of your own "free will" if you don't know what the choices are!!
    You can hope, you can have faith etc, but you CAN NOT CHOOSE to fallow God if you do not know for sure that he exists in the first place!

    ---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    If God wanted to save all, then all would be saved.
    This is an incredibly powerful statement I had not considered before!! Allow me to expand my thought.
    If God wanted "all to be saved" (which is how most Christians have worded it to me), then of course, all would be saved!




    Indeed, I believe you are correct

  7. #287
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    Why can't we argue the point? The Bible that claims to be His word, His revelation to humanity, has evidence that is most reasonable to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Because you CAN NOT make a choice of your own "free will" if you don't know what the choices are!!
    There are two choices - a Creator or blind, indifferent chance; Mind or matter. Once you get over that hurdle, if you choose option 1 (a Creator), then the question becomes which God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You can hope, you can have faith etc, but you CAN NOT CHOOSE to fallow God if you do not know for sure that he exists in the first place!
    True, because how can you believe if you do not want to believe? If you do not want to believe you will find every excuse imaginable not to believe. What I am arguing for is that the evidence for God - the Bible, history conforming to prophecy, the universe, moral beings, etc. - are reasonable, logical, believable proofs.

    Those who do not put their faith in the God revealed in the Bible put their faith in something else.

    Biblical faith is NOT an irrational faith or blind faith. There is beautiful reason behind it.

    Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)
    6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


    When I first read the Bible I believed it was God speaking to me and He rewarded me with proof of His existence, through thick and thin, in good times and bad. I believe He is looking after my best interests, my relationship with Him. If I did not believe it was God speaking to me why would I believe what He/was said?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    If God wanted to save all, then all would be saved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This is an incredibly powerful statement I had not considered before!! Allow me to expand my thought.
    If God wanted "all to be saved" (which is how most Christians have worded it to me), then of course, all would be saved!

    Indeed, I believe you are correct
    I will give you my perspective.

    The Christian contends that He (God) has given humanity everything it needs to believe in Him. The problem is that we are not neutral. Since Adam chose not to obey God humanity has generally been dead-set against Him. I contend that when Adam sinned relativism and subjectivism was born. The serpent put the question to Eve, "Did God really say?"...
    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.


    The thing about free will is that it is not really free outside of God (John 8:32), since the Garden. How do you get to truth about origins, about existence, about morality, without God? Adam could have chosen to sin or not to sin. We do not have that option. We sin. If you think I am wrong then try to stop doing something you like to do. In respect to the Ten Commandments, if you think you are free to choose unhindered, then go one week without telling a lie; or if you think your will is free then go the other way, one week without telling the truth at all. Go one year without taking anything that does not belong to you (that pen from work), without wanting something that belongs to someone else (coveting), one week without saying something bad about someone else (gossip or bearing false witness about your neighbor). We are influenced by all kinds of hidden factors. We are channeled by society, by the intellectual elite, institutes of higher learning, the media, the government, by our parents, our friends and peers, evil, our likes and dislikes, etc.

    Think about society, the intellectual elite, institutions of higher learning, the media, the government, and what group controls and has the greatest sway over these outlets. Hitler understood that if you want to control a society then you control them by these institutions; by radio, by institutions of higher learning, the intellectual elite, government. IMO, liberal, radical, left wing, socialists are in control or greatly influencing the thinking of these institutions in your country, the USA. Who, on university campuses are stopping people from expressing their views, and which views are being suppressed. Sean Hannity, on Hannity, has identified liberal, leftist, billionares (MediaMatters) as trying to get control of and subvert conservative values. Speech is not as free as it used to be when people were able to discuss their differences. According to Hannity these leftist groups are trying to suppress the freedoms of Conservatives in regards to the 1st Ammendment (angelocarusone.com).

    The more I listen to the leftist media buzz (I no longer watch CNN or NBC - never again) the more I am convinced that the big Russia story does not have to do with Trump, but with Hilary Clinton. (But I'm biased)

    Do you think your will is free, that you can believe whatever you want to, or do you believe that things, appearances, opinions, likes and dislikes, ideas, etc., influence the way you think?

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    I always think about Ephesians 2:1-3 and what a dead man is capable of doing? What can a dead man do - someone who is dead to God? Can a dead man do anything?
    Our sins deaden us to God.

    That is the great news of the Gospels, the Good News. Dead men (spiritually dead) hear the message and live. Lazareth hears the Lord calling to him and he arises from the dead. Through the message from God people come to believe in Him, dispite the whole world that is against God and His message. "Did God really say?"

    Peter

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    There are two choices - a Creator or blind, indifferent chance; Mind or matter. Once you get over that hurdle, if you choose option 1 (a Creator), then the question becomes which God?
    Hmmm.
    I believe per the bible, if the Christian God existed, a logical person would not even be able to question his existence. It would be obvious/self evident/an objective truth.

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Hmmm.
    I believe per the bible, if the Christian God existed, a logical person would not even be able to question his existence. It would be obvious/self evident/an objective truth.
    Why not? You have a volition. You can make decisions. The Christian sees God as giving humanity this ability to choose. God has given us the ability to reason. Adam had the ability to eat the fruit or not to eat the fruit. He choose to eat.

    The NT also says that men know the truth but suppress it (Romans 1:18-20).

    So, I see the problem of men suppressing the truth of God in their consciences. The more they do this the further they drift from His presence (Romans 1:24, 26, 28).

    Peter

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    The Christian sees God as giving humanity this ability to choose. God has given us the ability to reason.
    And if one is NOT already a Christian, one would need to know God exists before one could logically fallow. There is absolutely no reason the Christian God would not allow for certainty he existed!

    You offer I may be denying his existence, but I need something to "deny". I am presented no definite evidence. It makes no logical sense.

    If all you can offer me is God should basically be self evident to me that God exists, I will wish you well and good night. I have enjoyed talking with you.
    I will of course respond to any new or significant points you may offer

  11. #291
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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And speaking with God would create that belief as one would likely be convinced that God exists once he/she has talked with God.



    But the 100% is an artificial bar. No one is 100% certain of ANYTHING. Perhaps your whole life is an illusion and you aren't even who you think you are - you get the idea. We don't require 100% certainty in order to consider that one has knowledge of something. Really the bar is what we would consider attaining knowledge in our daily lives. If you see a dog on your lawn, you can reasonably say that you know you that there was as dog on your lawn even if you can never prove it to anyone. Sure, the dog could be a hallucination or a false memory but that doesn't change the fact that you still "know" that there was a dog on your lawn.

    So if one actually meets with God and God tells that person something, that is typically good enough to count as attaining knowledge and raising the bar of certainty or calling the knowledge a different word doesn't really change that. And if it so happens that what the person was told is true, then they have knowledge of the truth.
    First, the 100% is not artificial. It may be impossible to achieve, but it does not mean it is invalid. What we require to satisfy our own doubts is different than what it would take to call something objectively true. Usually, when we make statements of truth, we are presenting them as true within our own perspective. The sky is blue is 100% true for the person who is saying it within the context of what he believes blue to mean. However, a color-blind person may not share this truth and certainly, a dog, if the dog could understand, would call b.s. Of course, we cannot even make an objectively true statement about the sky's color. It is relative. The sky's color, in objective terms, is beyond man's comprehension. Frankly, all objective truth is beyond us. It is an ideal. Our attempts to claim otherwise are grandiose and a bit delusional.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Factual knowledge is knowledge that is true. If God has told you something that you believe and likewise that thing is true then meeting God has lead you to believe something that is true. Whether you are 100% certain or perhaps a little less certain than that doesn't really make much of a difference.

    The point is that in that situation, one has been made aware that a certain moral position is objectively true. This can happen.

    And also, God, being omnipotent CAN make someone 100% certain. An all-powerful being is certainly powerful enough to make a human absolutely certain of something.
    Factual knowledge is knowledge we believe is true. I remember citing the names of the planets in elementary school. This bit of memorized factual knowledge turned out to be not only wrong, but based on a subjective classification system. The things we imagine are true makes us feel safe, but when we are discussing things intellectually, we must be willing to put down our blankets and stare at what we do not know. This is a daunting task because if we are being very honest, we'd admit, we actually know nothing. But we throw out inconvenient statistics such as a fact mustn't be true with 100% certainty. Why? For no other reason than its inherent unreasonableness and our unwillingness to come to grips with our own smallness. How long was the earth flat before we discovered it was round? Did the truth change? Will it ever change again? Now, we may stumble upon facts. I'm sure we "know" things which happen to be true. The interesting thing is how we reconcile this knowledge against all the things we've been wrong about prior. Lucky for us, we have short memories and die relatively quickly. We have a limited capacity to carry our mistakes with us from one generation to the next. Due to this little safety mechanism in the human program, we create institutions that act as our long term memories and that do get passed from one generation to the next. They hold our rules which we use to construct societies. They replace the need for each generation to subject themselves to brand new rules created by a single human understanding of truth. When these institutions break down, we often see grave consequences. The idea that man can attain objective truth isn't just folly, but it is dangerous. It is the type of idea which props up dictators and tyrants. I do not believe in god and often find the church abhorrent. However, as a bridge across many generations, it has developed a set of rules which many successful societies have followed. Traditions, if you will. When man becomes especially arrogant, he attempts to raze these institutions. Success can sometimes bring progress. Sometimes it can bring misery. It is why I am, ultimately, a conservative. I do not believe in some great objective truth. I understand the purpose of tradition and, while I do not always agree with it, I am willing to allow it to change gradually. Slowly. Those who believe in their own ability to know truth objectively do not exercise such caution. And that should scare all of us.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The Christian sees God as giving humanity this ability to choose. God has given us the ability to reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And if one is NOT already a Christian, one would need to know God exists before one could logically fallow. There is absolutely no reason the Christian God would not allow for certainty he existed!
    And how are you going to know God exists unless you believe in Him?

    There was a time when a man's word was a sign of his character. How much more should we believe God?

    The Christian God does allow for certainty. I do not doubt God's existence and His revelation. Funny thing, when I first read His word (in a time of great need) I looked upon it as God speaking to me. During the years He has confirmed who He is in so many ways.

    It boils down to a few factors. God has given humanity the means that we may know Him. That means is His Son, His Word, His Spirit, His creation.

    John 3:16
    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    John 3:18
    He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    It also boils down to either trusting God or not trusting Him. If you do not believe He exists how can you trust Him?

    Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
    6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    Finally, the NT teaches that we do in fact know God exists. Those who deny His existence suppress the truth of God and believe a lie.

    Romans 10:17 (NASB)
    17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


    God gives us His word that we may believe. Our faith comes from hearing the message, and yet not all believe. That is where being born again or regenerated comes into the equation.

    Romans 1:18-20 (NASB)
    Unbelief and Its Consequences
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


    When we deny God we make ourselfs our own gods. We become the ultimate decider of truth and right. I have argued in this thread that truth and morality becomes relative and one view is ultimately no 'better' than any other in a meaningless universe. We just choose to make one view our preference based on likes or our tastes.

    Why are your likes, your tastes better than mine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You offer I may be denying his existence, but I need something to "deny". I am presented no definite evidence. It makes no logical sense.
    You have not expressed much interest in prophecy, yet it is a most reasonable proof. I'm still waiting for someone to make a reasonable argument against it. They have not. The only person to touch on the thread I posted was a Rabbi. He has been quite for two weeks now. I am debating a Rabbi on another forum and he keeps asserting that he understands the OT (Tanakh) because he speaks Hebrew, and since I don't, then I do not understand the nuances of the language. He claims I miss so much that he can't or won't explain to me.

    My view is that God is able to communicate to humanity, even though He choose a particular people to make Himself known to the world. The Messiah (Jesus) was Jewish and the greatest Rabbi, a Rabbi who expressed God's truth better than any other rabbi ever could. The first Christians were Jews who believed the OT was being fulfilled in all its prophecy regarding the Messiah prophesied. The NT is the fulfillment of yet unfulilled OT prophecy. It is a fulfillment of God's judgment on a stiff-necked people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If all you can offer me is God should basically be self evident to me that God exists, I will wish you well and good night. I have enjoyed talking with you.
    I will of course respond to any new or significant points you may offer
    Okay!

    Peter

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    The Christian God does allow for certainty.

    He most certainly does not, or at the very least, does not allow EVERYONE to be certain or I wouldn't be questioning it.....????

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    And how are you going to know God exists unless you believe in Him?
    Pro God arguments do tend to be circular...

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The Christian God does allow for certainty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    He most certainly does not, or at the very least, does not allow EVERYONE to be certain or I wouldn't be questioning it.....????
    Sure He does. He has what is necessary for certainty - that is, omniscience, benevolence, eternality, and unchangeable as to His character so He is consistent and unvarying (He always tells the truth).

    He does not allow everyone because most will not believe in Him. They prefer to do their own thing. He testifies to Himself via the Bible. Why would He allow a person into His presence when they continually mock Him, doubt Him, and they see their own way as better than God's. The reason you question is that you will not submit to His authority via His revelation. You continually look for ways to tear it apart. You place your own authority, or those of mere subjective, relative men, above His. You place your own mind and your own thoughts as above those of the biblical God. Therefore, you get what you desire - separation from Him. When you read His Word you dismiss it as the Word of God. You challenge Him to make Himself known to you if He is the God revealed in the Bible. He already has. You think He is obligated to bow to your wishes and whims. He is not, for He alone is sovereign, yet He has graciously revealed who He is. You accept that or you don't. For those who truly trust Him and the means He has given to know Him (His Word, His Son, His Spirit) He confirms that trust in amazing ways - in logic, in consistency, in meaning, in history, in making sense of anything (the means to know with certainty).

    To put it another way - if He exists, then we can have certainty; if He does not exist then who is right and true to what is? We only see things in part, in a limited way. We do not know everything there is to know about origins, morality, existence. If we did we would be certain. Yet you question.

    [QUOTE=PGA2
    And how are you going to know God exists unless you believe in Him?[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Pro God arguments do tend to be circular...
    So do anti-God arguments. Instead of using God the anti-God arguments use science - science says this or science says that. That is fine in the case of repeatable, testible cases, but how do you test origins? In the case of origins/beginnings no human being was around. They INTERPRET the evidence, based on starting points.

    I see every worldview as eventually running into circularity if you push it far enough.

    The question is what is true?

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

    And how do you know.

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    You challenge Him to make Himself known to you if He is the God revealed in the Bible. He already has. You think He is obligated to bow to your wishes and whims.
    This is actually quite the opposite of what I was trying to convey. Allow me to rephrase and maybe I can be more clear.

    My point is more like;
    Given what is written in the Christian Bible, that God existed, would be an objective, undeniable truth.

    I didn't mean God needed to "do bidding" before I will admit he exists.

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    You challenge Him to make Himself known to you if He is the God revealed in the Bible. He already has. You think He is obligated to bow to your wishes and whims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This is actually quite the opposite of what I was trying to convey. Allow me to rephrase and maybe I can be more clear.

    My point is more like;
    Given what is written in the Christian Bible, that God existed, would be an objective, undeniable truth.
    Yet we are subjective beings and don't always see things as they really are. As I argue, where we start is usually where we end up.

    Peter

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Yet we are subjective beings and don't always see things as they really are. As I argue, where we start is usually where we end up.
    Peter
    Perhaps.

    I would still argue its obvious that if the Bible were literally true:

    Gods existence would be undeniable!!

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Perhaps.

    I would still argue its obvious that if the Bible were literally true:

    Gods existence would be undeniable!!
    I would argue that people find an excuse not to believe.

    I always remember the saying: "Change a man against his will he remains the same unchanged still."

    What that means is that no convincing will change a mind that does not want to be changed, no matter where the evidence points. A skeptic always finds another reason not to believe. Even though I see the universe and the Bible screaming of God's existence, you have a volition that does not recognize God, so how do I convince you of that? I can't, but He can. How often have I tried to show that prophecy is not so easily explained away. More of the time people who engage in refuting God have little or no understanding of the depth of prophecy and its interaction with history (His story). Then there is morality, existence, origins, truth, certainty, all of which do not make sense without God, IMO.

    Do you BELIEVE Hebrews 11:6? Those who come to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. How will you find Him if you do not seek Him out, if you do not believe He is speaking to you and giving you reasons to believe? Jesus said that He is the way to God the Father. Not only that but He is THE truth and the light (John 14:6). How do you find light in a world that has so much darkness in it (John 3:20-21)?

    Peter

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I would argue that people find an excuse not to believe.

    I always remember the saying: "Change a man against his will he remains the same unchanged still."

    What that means is that no convincing will change a mind that does not want to be changed, no matter where the evidence points. A skeptic always finds another reason not to believe. Even though I see the universe and the Bible screaming of God's existence, you have a volition that does not recognize God, so how do I convince you of that? I can't, but He can. How often have I tried to show that prophecy is not so easily explained away. More of the time people who engage in refuting God have little or no understanding of the depth of prophecy and its interaction with history (His story). Then there is morality, existence, origins, truth, certainty, all of which do not make sense without God, IMO.

    Do you BELIEVE Hebrews 11:6? Those who come to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. How will you find Him if you do not seek Him out, if you do not believe He is speaking to you and giving you reasons to believe? Jesus said that He is the way to God the Father. Not only that but He is THE truth and the light (John 14:6). How do you find light in a world that has so much darkness in it (John 3:20-21)?

    Peter
    I don't think we are on the same page what "undeniable" means.

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    Re: Objective morality vs. subjective morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I don't think we are on the same page what "undeniable" means.
    Then please explain some more!

    Peter

 

 
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